JHPs do they really make a big difference?


PDA






shephard19
September 7, 2009, 02:59 AM
It seems sometimes that many forum members would never even consider the use of ball ammunition in their pistols for the purpose of self defense... I know that JHPs expand and therefore make a larger wound, but are there not also some instances where penetration through cover may be needed? It seems to me that ball ammunition is fine for self defense and JHPs are a little better in most situations that are likely to occur but is the difference that strong?

If you enjoyed reading about "JHPs do they really make a big difference?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
PandaBearBG
September 7, 2009, 03:13 AM
As simple as it gets, JHP most blunt force trauma at short distances with the least amount of penetration = best for HD. Standard ball ammo can do the penetration you describe, but in a HD situation, penetration is what you don't want. Collateral damage and possible injury to family members or neighbors thru walls, and shooting a perp thru a wall or dresser won't really stand up in court if he survives.

But any bullet is better than no bullet.

The Lone Haranguer
September 7, 2009, 09:29 AM
There are plenty of JHP bullet designs (at least in 9mm Luger and up) that both penetrate light cover and expand when they hit the target.

content
September 7, 2009, 11:38 AM
Hello friends and neighbors// IMHO this is where the 3,3,3 rule applies.

/// 3 shots, within 3 yards, in 3 seconds///

This applies to the vast majority of SD shootings // Mainly you want to dump all bullet power on target (expansion).

JHP also help to avoid thru and thru. (thru target and into unwanted area )/// IE : another person behind target, or thru wall into something expolsive.

This is a pic of round I developed for 44mag. (Ruger Redhawk SS 7.5 inch ) in 1992.////Using Hercules red dot smokeless shotgun powder with JHP fired into box filled with loose sand.///// Penetration was 6 inches. 104922

As you can see just short of covering quarter

xXxplosive
September 7, 2009, 11:47 AM
IMO.....JHP Ammo works fine if you have enough FPS / energy behind the round allowing it to expand properly. Many smaller caliber handguns do not have the required FPS therefore you wind up with a HB round anyway with lesser penetrating properties.

It's nice to ensure that no pass through would ever occur to injure the innocent...........but not to sound callous here.....I couldn't care less if my Arse is on the line.

It's Hard Ball in my CCW for me.......always.

laktrash
September 7, 2009, 12:08 PM
I ask about this on another forum referring to compact 45s and it got a little complicated (to me) reliability ? Lighter grain because of short barrell? Penetration of clothing in winter. I plan to try some JHP but for now I have 235 ball at bedside just me and wife in house.

HiVelSword
September 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
"It's Hard Ball in my CCW for me.......always."

You live in NJ so it's not like you really have much in the way of choice. ;)

AZAviator
September 7, 2009, 01:37 PM
My friend uses a bullet for HD, I don't remember what its called. Its a jacketed glass bullet that shatters on impact so it wont go through walls. This sounds ideal for being in a house with kids or an apartment. The downside is $1 per bullet, or so Im told.

earlthegoat2
September 7, 2009, 01:41 PM
shattering glass in a bullet doesnt seem legal as glass fragments wont show up on medical xrays. I know they probably arent designed to shatter inside someone but you know....

mljdeckard
September 7, 2009, 01:55 PM
Frangible ammo has little penetrating power, I would never hang my life on it.

We spend hours arguing in here about caliber, shot placement, brand of bullet, etc. I think ultimately the difference may be subtle.

Handguns are not ideal for self defense at all. We carry them because they are portable and concealable. They are inferior for putting someone down quickly. This is why we spend so much time, energy and money trying to develop new and improved bullets that will make the odds better. When you are using a handgun, you need to give yourself every possible advantage. I carry the round which is the most likely to make the biggest holes, (230 gr HSTs) but it's ALSO the gun I shoot best and I'm the most likely to get multiple good hits with. As stated above, 3,3,3 is a good rule to start with.

Having said all that, yes, I think that the real world difference is negligible a lot of the time. (I won't try to put a percentage on it.) If my HSTs fail to expand, I'm still getting hits with.....a 230 gr .45 bullet. I think that you would have to compare one end of the extreme (say, .44 mag in Corbon defensive loads) with the other (115 gr 9mm fmj) to really see a gap in performance if you are getting three hits, in three seconds, at three meters. I am not one of these "your .40 is inferior to my .45 JHP" guys.

joeoim
September 7, 2009, 02:19 PM
Shepard19,

I doubt if you will find many lawmen who prefer ball ammo for self defense.

Ball ammo, and wadcutters, are not as destructive in tissue as jhp's.

A hollow point will make a larger wound and channel provided it has the velocity to make it expand.

I use semi jacketed hollow cavity for general carry.

I use jacketed soft point when in the woods.

A hollow point or soft point would not be preferred if you had to shoot through a windshield.

ymmv

Joe

GunNut
September 7, 2009, 02:37 PM
YES;)

AZAviator
September 7, 2009, 03:24 PM
shattering glass in a bullet doesnt seem legal as glass fragments wont show up on medical xrays. I know they probably arent designed to shatter inside someone but you know....

Actually they are. I found what he was talking about. I think its called the Glaser bullet, not really glass but it does leave fraggments in your body which cut you up after the fact.
Heres a pic http://img222.imageshack.us/i/15794423.jpg/

Does anyone know if these are good or worth the $$??

mljdeckard
September 7, 2009, 03:31 PM
As I said above, I would not trust my life to frangible ammo. It does not penetrate deeply enough to be likely to stop the actions of the target. It's a gimmick, a small step above 'Extreme Shock" ammo.

DAVIDSDIVAD
September 7, 2009, 04:11 PM
Actually they are. I found what he was talking about. I think its called the Glaser bullet, not really glass but it does leave fraggments in your body which cut you up after the fact.


Does anyone know if these are good or worth the $$??

That's just gunshop Diva HURR and DURR, man.

rcmodel
September 7, 2009, 04:24 PM
There is no glass in a Glaser Safety slug.

What you got is a bullet jacket full of lead bird-shot, with a blue plastic cap on it.

Glaser is the name of the guy who invented them.

Not a workman that goes around repairing broken glass windows.

rc

edrice
September 7, 2009, 05:08 PM
Frangible ammo has little penetrating power, I would never hang my life on it.

We spend hours arguing in here about caliber, shot placement, brand of bullet, etc. I think ultimately the difference may be subtle.

Handguns are not ideal for self defense at all. We carry them because they are portable and concealable. They are inferior for putting someone down quickly. This is why we spend so much time, energy and money trying to develop new and improved bullets that will make the odds better. When you are using a handgun, you need to give yourself every possible advantage. I carry the round which is the most likely to make the biggest holes, (230 gr HSTs) but it's ALSO the gun I shoot best and I'm the most likely to get multiple good hits with. As stated above, 3,3,3 is a good rule to start with.

Having said all that, yes, I think that the real world difference is negligible a lot of the time. (I won't try to put a percentage on it.) If my HSTs fail to expand, I'm still getting hits with.....a 230 gr .45 bullet. I think that you would have to compare one end of the extreme (say, .44 mag in Corbon defensive loads) with the other (115 gr 9mm fmj) to really see a gap in performance if you are getting three hits, in three seconds, at three meters. I am not one of these "your .40 is inferior to my .45 JHP" guys.

You know, over the years I've been moving more and more in this direction.

I really started getting interested in ammo choices beginning around 1980 and have still been following it all these years and I have seen just about every theory and principle presented in a wide variery of styles, including from Jan Libourel's math formula (remember that?) to Evans and Marhshall's stats, to the Taylor knock out factor and everything else in between and if I've heard it all once, I've heard it a thousand times. But the more I started learning about bigger and heavier bullets, especially in the use of hunting large game, the more it more it's occurred to me that penetration is so much more important than expansion. You'd hear more and more about how a heavy .45 would shoot completely through a buffalo or bear and that you definitely didn't want expansion to inhibit penetration. And these are large wild animals and I'm thinking to myself, will a heavy .45 fired at a human do any less? It has to stop shorter to be effective? I'm not one that puts much stock into the energy-dump theory and consider a longer wound channel a greater benefit. Anyone that puts much thought into the physics of the energy-dump theory will realize that this is really not that much energy at all being dumped by a tiny projectile. It's not like you're knocking the guy backwards 30 feet like they used to show in Hollywood movies. The gun just recoils in your hand a little and that same energy is what drives a less than half inch projectile into flesh and bone. As an example, grab that same gun by the barrel and hit someone in the chest with the butt with the same energy as the recoil and see just how much energy you dump. Might bruise the thoracic cage a little but you won't be doing much damage. So dump energy-dump.

Many hunting rounds are made to not expand at all, such as this Barnes Buster -

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Barnes+Buster

Well, if it's so effective on a large wild game animal, which are harder to kill than humans, what makes it so less effective on a BG?

I do keep hollow points loaded because I think there is an advantage, but likewise, I don't think it's as big a gap as most people have built up in thir minds if you start out using a heavy enough bullet. HPs compare very poorly to shot placement. I wouldn't feel undergunned with solids.

Ed

orionengnr
September 7, 2009, 06:14 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again (as often as this question is posted, likely)

As soon as anyone, anywhere, shows me that a major PD uses ball ammo, I will consider using it for carry. Briefly.
Major PDs have to worry about barrier penetration far more than you or I do.

Likewise, as soon as any major PD uses frangible (Glaser, MagSafe, etc.) I will consider it. Not.
I spent an awful lot of money on that crap back 10-15 years ago, (not a buck a round, more like 2-3 bucks a round) and it's all a gimmick. I've read that the Air Marshalls use it (supposedly, haven't seen any independent verification of that) but that is a very specialized situation. Police Officers need to worry about overpenetration too; also it is also reputed that they may miss from time to time :)

Bottom line:

No JHP for me (unless I live in NJ, and I'd probably shoot myself before I alowed that to happen):)
No (more) frangible ammo for me.

Prosser
September 7, 2009, 07:27 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again (as often as this question is posted, likely)

As soon as anyone, anywhere, shows me that a major PD uses ball ammo, I will consider using it for carry. Briefly.
Major PDs have to worry about barrier penetration far more than you or I do.

Likewise, as soon as any major PD uses frangible (Glaser, MagSafe, etc.) I will consider it. Not.
I spent an awful lot of money on that crap back 10-15 years ago, (not a buck a round, more like 2-3 bucks a round) and it's all a gimmick. I've read that the Air Marshalls use it (supposedly, haven't seen any independent verification of that) but that is a very specialized situation. Police Officers need to worry about overpenetration too; also it is also reputed that they may miss from time to time :)

Bottom line:

No JHP for me (unless I live in NJ, and I'd probably shoot myself before I alowed that to happen):)
No (more) frangible ammo for me.
Rich, I think this is a bit inconsistent:

No JHP for me (unless I live in NJ, and I'd probably shoot myself before I alowed that to happen)
No (more) frangible ammo for me. .

I think JHP makes a huge difference, I'm just not convinced it makes much difference in service calibers.

If I can take a 185 grain .44 Magnum HP, send it into bello at 1630 fps, and still only get 15" of penetration, that is a wonderful thing. If I did that with a 185 grain Solid, it would penetrate forever, and keep going.

Now, in the service caliber, self-defense guns, all they do is put the brakes on penetration at about 14", maximum. If you think that's enough, your a JHP guy.

If you don't, you should probably be looking at either a tougher JHP, or, a flat nosed solid, similar to a wadcutter, or Keith style bullet.

The Lone Haranguer
September 7, 2009, 10:44 PM
Well, if it's so effective on a large wild game animal, which are harder to kill than humans, what makes it so less effective on a BG?

I don't think you can compare the two. Large game animals require deeper penetration to reach their vital organs because their bodies have much wider/deeper cross sections. Also, there is no concern of through-and-through penetration hitting bystanders.

bigfatdave
September 7, 2009, 11:04 PM
I spent an awful lot of money on that crap back 10-15 years ago, (not a buck a round, more like 2-3 bucks a round) and it's all a gimmick. I've read that the Air Marshalls use it (supposedly, haven't seen any independent verification of that) but that is a very specialized situation.Just because an ammo maker makes something called an "air freedom" round doesn't mean that anyone in particular uses it.
I've yet to see a real rundown on what Air Marshalls pack, and not that I think about it, I don't really care.

To everyone wondering about frangible ammo, or ball vs HP ... get yourself to The Box Of Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/) and BrassFetcher (www.brassfetcher.com)'s testing, and make your choice based on more than what the gun-shop counter guy or your cousin's friend are claiming to use.
I wouldn't feel under-gunned if loaded up with ball ammo, but I'll take the improvement of HP in anything 9mm (or so) and up, just because ball ammo doesn't make the big cavity that a good expanding HP will. If I had a bigger ammo budget, I'd like to test out the EFMJ rounds coming onto the market, but they're just too rare, and I don't have the testing budget at the moment (lots of ammo, test stand, water jugs, ballistics gel, or an equivalent, etc etc).
But in the end, all that matters is shot placement, depth, and width ... in that order. Sales gimmicks and marketing won't save your life, defend your home, or stop a rapist ... but good shots into center of mass will.

Nicodemus38
September 7, 2009, 11:51 PM
the british kinda proved that a large diamter, heavy hollow point made of lead that expands is really good for self defense. it was called the .455 webley "manstopper' round. it was banned by the hague as being to barbaric.
big caliber sized entry hole through sternum, big 70 caliberish exit hole on the other side.

M2 Carbine
September 8, 2009, 12:20 AM
JHPs do they really make a big difference?
If you have to be shot, which would you choose.
A full metal jacket .224 or FMJ .452 diameter bullet or this .224 JHP that has expanded to almost .45 and this 45 JHP that has expended well beyound .452?

And that's not even taking into consideration all those sharp cutting edges.

A .224 JHP and 45 JHP will always be at least .224 and .45 diameter or larger but a .224 FMJ and a 45 FMJ will never be any larger than .224 and .45.

Not that I ever want to have to choose between getting hit by a FMJ or JHP but I'd sure pick the FMJ.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRRemJSPand45GD.jpg

makarovnik
September 8, 2009, 05:41 AM
Depends on the caliber and also if the gun will reliably feed HP's.

WC145
September 8, 2009, 11:40 AM
For those who care or are curious, the air marshals carry 357sigs loaded with 125gr Gold Dot HPs.

And, yes, HPs make a difference and I only use FMJ for range work.

edrice
September 8, 2009, 12:42 PM
Well, if it's so effective on a large wild game animal, which are harder to kill than humans, what makes it so less effective on a BG?

I don't think you can compare the two. Large game animals require deeper penetration to reach their vital organs because their bodies have much wider/deeper cross sections. Also, there is no concern of through-and-through penetration hitting bystanders.

Actually you can compare anything, even apples and oranges. Oranges are orange and apples are, well... red, green, yellow... and they are basically the same size. I just successfully compared them.

But flesh, blood and bones of animals and humans are relatively very similar, maybe with some size differences but even those that are roughly the same size as humans may be tougher and harder to bring down down than humans. So what you're referring to here is a thicker animal that needs more penetration to cover the cross-sectional thickness and I'm in full agreement. I'm also aware that most modern HPs penetate somewhere around an average of 12 inches but I know plenty of humans that have greater thickness that would benefit from greater penetration than can be afforded by a too-quickly expanding HP. If a the bullet-path cross-section of a BG is 18 inches and the bullet only penetrates 12 inches, then we're absent 6 inches of potential wound channel. In the event that no vital organs are struck, I'd rather have the projectile traverse that entire distance to create one-third more grief for the BG even if it may not be quite as wide. That just looks to me like more debilitating damage, just like for the larger game animal. So, hence, still begs my very valid question, "Well, if it's so effective on a large wild game animal, which are harder to kill than humans, what makes it so less effective on a BG?"

The key to your statement is "to reach their vital organs" and if HP or ball does that, the business is done. Given that, then the length and width arguments of the wound channel are mostly moot. Not given that, then there are still bone, muscle and blood vessels to eat up and if your HP has stopped somewhere short then those components are left intact, much to our disquiet. In that highly probable instance (because vital organs make small targets), I'll gladly take the longer wound channel over the short one any day.

If the vital organs are hit and the entire cross section is traversed tearing up more structure, so much the better.

The disccusion about over-penetration and bystanders is basically a non-issue since shephard19's OP was about JHP vs ball effectiveness had nothing to do with an actual scenario. Sure, it's a good point in one sense in that you certainly don't want to hurt any innocents, but there's also the potential for hitting another BG behind the first BG if it does over-penetrate and wouldn't that be a desireable thing? Not that likely, I know, but this coupled with the fact that, and don't hold me to a ratio because I'm not sure what the actual stats are, but many rounds miss the BG entirely and go down range for every one that actually connects. That alone greatly mitigates the argument against over-penetration and brings up the question as to whether one should even fire at all given that either the distance is too great for accurate marksmanship, especially under duress. Also the fact that if the HP fills up with clothing or bone and expands very little or not at all, you're still stuck with your over-penetration issue, so the point becomes even more mooty. There is no magic bullet. I'd never think for a minute that because you're using HPs that bystanders are safe. There's much more to this.

I think some of the previous replies have interpreted questioning HP performance vs ball as being adverse to using them, and I think some might need to read a little closer. I've already stated that I load JHPs for home defense for whatever slight advantage I might gain. I'm just under no illusion that an HP is a death ray and that with the ball ammo one might as well throw down the gun and hotfoot it screaming like a banshee. Many people have been dropped with one shot from ball ammo because they were hit in a vital spot and many have lived to fight on after multiple HP hits because they were not. The HP/ball consideration is a distant second to shot placement and I personally would rather start out with a round that's large and heavy when it arrives at the BG than worry about how wide it's going to be after it's done.

Ed

JTQ
September 8, 2009, 01:27 PM
I believe edrice has a valid point about penetration.

I'm not trying to convince anybody one way or the other, I'm pretty sure I couldn't even if I tried, but I think people should consider as much information as they can before making their own decision.

A few points to ponder.

Police do use hollow point ammunition. The question to ask is why. Is it because the ammunition actually stops the threat faster or because it won't shoot through and cause collateral damage. The next question to ask is what is more likely with any pistol ammunition, shoot through or a complete miss?

Any pistol round is marginal for the task of personal defense. The reason we carry pistols is because they are portable, not because they are most effective. When hunters are using a round that is marginal for the task, they typically go for more penetration rather than expansion. Anybody use hollow points in their .45/70 when they are hunting big bears or African game? There are lots of hollow point .45/70 bullets designed for deer hunting, but when you take the round up to game it is more or less marginal for, the bullets all become heavy, non-hollow point bullets.

Over the last 20 years or so, you have seen the preferred bullet weight for caliber, regardless of design, go up. The favored 9 MM used to be 115 gr. and now the favorites are 124 gr. and up. The Winchester Silvertip in 185 gr. used to be favorite in .45 ACP, now the top rounds are the 230 gr bullets. The light bullets are still faster, usually have more energy, and dump it all in the target, with little chance of shoot through. Why the trend to the heavier bullets? What advantage do you gain with the heavier bullet? Penetration?

There has been a lot of research done on handgun shootings, but it is nothing like the research done, both formally and informally, with hunting ammunition. Try and find hollow point or expanding bullet ammunition for any caliber above .35. Do hunter's think a .35 caliber hole is big enough? Why not for personal defense?

Prosser
September 8, 2009, 06:59 PM
It's real simple: Do you want a permanent wound channel .357", or a wound channel .7"?
Also, the hollow points, if driven fast enough, create a large temporary cavity in the first half, or less, of the penetration.

However, the wound channel doesn't matter if you can't get to the vital organ you are shooting to hit...

Keep in mind that you can get excellent wound ballistics by using a variety of projectiles. And, yes, in marginal calibers, I would, and have, considered using flat nosed solids. Usually, however, I choose not to carry that caliber...

smallbore
September 8, 2009, 08:03 PM
JHP. . .Don't trust hardball.

LightningJoe
September 8, 2009, 08:03 PM
The theory behind the JHP is plausible, but I'm still a skeptic. Some look good in gelatin. What difference they make on humans in combat, I think, is unknown. I suspect they've prevented incapacitating injuries on some occasions by greatly reducing penetration. Have they ever turned ineffectual wounds into incapacitating ones? I don't know. Not sure anyone does.


As for frangibles, I agree with most of the people on this thread: Not for serious business.

Steve C
September 8, 2009, 09:55 PM
I've shot jack rabbits,prairie dogs and other varmints using .22 rifles with both solid and HP ammo. The HP ammo is remarkably more effective. In those days there wasn't any stingers or other hyper velocity ammo and I certainly couldn't afford a .22 mag. The .22 rimfire from a rifle at 1,280 fps has about the same velocity as a 9mm or magnum pistol round and at 50 to 100 yds the little bullet is only doing around 1,050 fps so its similar to pistol ammo. There isn't much hydraulic shock with rim fire like you get from a high power center fire running at over 2,500 fps.

Such practical experience corroborates the statistical conclusions of the Marshall Sannows work and the general conclusion by others that HP ammo is more effective than solids.

What ammo you choose to load in your pistol is your decision. The reality of the situation is that most people will never have to shoot someone even if the gun is used for self defense. Personally I choose to select my ammo based on real world statistics and my experiences. Others choose based on their experiences, conjecture or conclusions they draw from information they've been exposed to.

edrice
September 9, 2009, 01:13 PM
Such practical experience corroborates the statistical conclusions of the Marshall Sannows work and the general conclusion by others that HP ammo is more effective than solids.

Again, I don't see where anyone in this thread has disputed that point. The discussion has been more related to the matter of degree. shephard19's original question was, "It seems to me that ball ammunition is fine for self defense and JHPs are a little better in most situations that are likely to occur but is the difference that strong?"

That in no way conflicts with your statement and it does, in fact, agree with it.

Many of us are saying that there may be an advantage in most instances, but not all, and that the difference is not as great as the conventional "wisdom" has built up the perception over the years. This can be partially evidenced by the fact that the FBI studies and police departments have continually through the decades sought a more magical bullet and still have not gotten what they want. When you get what you want, you stop. It's gotten better, yes, but not to the point that shot placement ceases to be a factor and with good shot placement even ball can do the job. The Marshall/Sanow study may be a bit flawed in that it's an extremely difficult test to design. One of the first criteria was to remove all the multiple hits made with JHPs or made with anything. That's throwing away a lot of data.

smallbore said, "JHP. . .Don't trust hardball."

Agreed. And I don't trust JHP either. I think it's a mistake to put too much faith in bullet choice. There's been a noticeable tendancy over the years for too many people to remove one type of ammo from their pistols and load it with another with a feeling of relief that they've just extended their lives. It's a mindset brought on by years of advertising, gun mags, etc.

Ed

Duo
September 9, 2009, 11:49 PM
i know an guy (no names) who configured 9mms for a police force to wadcutter hollow points so that the wadcutter went through the hollow point after it expanded. he said when he showed what they could do to a block of ballistic jelly the police officers observing ordered 3000rds after they picked their jaws up off the floor.

Steve C
September 10, 2009, 02:10 AM
I think it's a mistake to put too much faith in bullet choice.

Who is putting faith in anything? It has to do with the reasoning of the initial premise

The question was: "It seems to me that ball ammunition is fine for self defense and JHPs are a little better in most situations that are likely to occur but is the difference that strong?" I think the answer is YES, JHP's are significantly better and there's no down side to using JHP's. If you carry a pistol for self defense why would you want to use somthing less effective to potentially save your life or a family members life?

Using the logic that FMJ's work most of the time just fine and a JHP may be only be 10% or 20% more effective so just use FMJ's is irrational. If the Dr diagnosed you with a form of cancer that will kill you if not treated and offered 2 drugs for your treatment but in clinical trials the slightly less expensive one cured 5 in 10 people who took it and the other cured 7 in 10 people, side effects of both drugs are the same, which one would you choose to take? Neither guarantee that you will be cured and live but on the other hand I think very few would choose the less effective treatment if they desired to survive.

kensbrass
September 10, 2009, 03:25 AM
we were told that it was against the geneva convention to cut 'x's into the top of our ball ammo as the bullet's expansion would make the wounded ememy less likley to recover. so, by requiring the full metal jacket, war would be somehow be less deadly for the people who do the fighting.

it seems that within the popular culture, the JHP is known more for inflicting damage than the ball. so when we see the concerned citizens (aka "men with guns") involved in conflicts, deaths are likley to be reported.

i dont know how many times police have put someone in the hospital in "serious but stable condition". for all the talk about police arms, they dont seem to be as effective at killing folks as the average concerned citizen. perhaps the police firearm is just another way of catching a suspect.

when Colt was selling their 45 ACP to the army in 1906, the army passed on their gun. the gun had used a 200g at 900fps. and failed the "goat test". Reflecting on lessons learned in the civil war (big bullets going slow are distructive to the body). In 1911, Colt increased the bullet to 230g and slowed it down to 850fps.

So i will stick with a big .45 ACP hollow point going slow 850fps.

edrice
September 10, 2009, 05:18 PM
Using the logic that FMJ's work most of the time just fine and a JHP may be only be 10% or 20% more effective so just use FMJ's is irrational.

Yes, stated just that way, then you are correct. No brainer. The problem is that it won't always happen that way as JHPs don't always open up and, secondly, sometimes when they do they give too little penetration. I've already given a scenario where the FMJ could possibly be a third more effective than the JHP. It's like a box of chocolates; you don't know what you're going to get, especially if your hollowpoint doesn't open up and acts just like a FMJ.


If the Dr diagnosed you with a form of cancer that will kill you if not treated and offered 2 drugs for your treatment but in clinical trials the slightly less expensive one cured 5 in 10 people who took it and the other cured 7 in 10 people, side effects of both drugs are the same, which one would you choose to take?


I'd take both. 12 out of 10 says I'm guaranteed to live with some left over. :D But seriously, that's easy stated that way. Bullet choice isn't quite so defined unless you know exactly what you're going up against which would be a rare thing.


Neither guarantee that you will be cured and live but on the other hand I think very few would choose the less effective treatment if they desired to survive.


It's not quite an exact parallel. There are too many variables with the round and the intended target. That's why I stated previously that I load JHPs but hope that suckers fails to expand if some huge-boned Brock-Lesnar-sized dude is receiving it.

Ed

swampshooter
September 10, 2009, 05:48 PM
A friend had a 22 pound turkey in the freezer for over a year so we decided to test some ammo on it. Shot .45, ball and 185 hp and 2 glaser safety slugs. The blue and the silver, which are loaded with different sizes of shot. As I recall the silver has #12 shot and the blue #6 shot. The ball ammo penetrated all the way but left a wound channel just slightly larger than .45 cal, maybe smaller. The hollow point penetrated about 6" with a wound channel about twice as large as the ball ammo. The glaser silver only penetrated about 3-4", but left a softball sized wound. The glaser blue penetrated 6-7" also with a softball sized wound channel. Those glaser safety slugs really tore that turkey up. I was very impressed with the glaser blue and have ordered them for my own use. I'm not a police officer and really don't care about penetrating cover near as much as i worry about a round going into a neighbors house. The glaser safety slug will open on a sheet of drywall and the shot has very limited penetration after that. Remember that when you pull the trigger you are responsible for that round until it stops.

LightningJoe
September 10, 2009, 06:21 PM
The effects of different cartridges and bullet types on humans in combat can't really be studied scientifically because it's impossible to perform the same experiment with more than one cartridge to observe the effects. So, we're stuck shooting at Jello and turkeys. I strongly suspect these don't tell us a lot about what humans will do after having been shot.

Marlin 45 carbine
September 10, 2009, 06:28 PM
as said lots of variables involved. I keep a hot handload jhp in my ccw guns chamber then fmj, this is semi-autos. a .32acp and 9mm Makarov, if I have my .357 or .45acp in vehicle I load hot jhp.

content
September 10, 2009, 07:51 PM
Hello friends and neighbors/// +1 swampshooter //// You are responsible for that round till it stops.

hhb
September 10, 2009, 10:11 PM
I have a friend who is the county coroner. he says he doesn't see a difference.

easyg
September 10, 2009, 10:24 PM
I have a friend who is the county coroner. he says he doesn't see a difference.
But your coroner friend has limited knowledge....
He only sees the dead ones, not the ones that got away.
And he has no idea how long the ones on his table fought on before they finally died.


What you have to ask yourself is this:

Is virtually every law enforcement agency in the USA just a bunch of mindless idiots when it comes to ammunition selection?

If ball ammo was more effective, then the majority of the various police agencies around the US would be using it.

Prosser
September 11, 2009, 05:04 AM
You judge:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/9mm%20US%20M882.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/357%20Magnum.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45%20ACP%20WW%20STHP.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg

Keep in mind that a soft lead bullet, LRN, etc. can expand just as well as any hollowpoint.
Here is a good example of what a soft lead 45 Colt, big caliber round would look like, but, on a slightly smaller scale:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/12%20Gauge%20Foster%20Slug.jpg

You can also cast lead Hollowpoints, that open up just like JHP's or better.

The Speer Gold Dot is .452" out of the barrel, on impact, it can open up to .95".
That's a 100% or more increase in permanent wound channel, and, also a huge increase in temporary wound cavity. It does sacrifice penetration...

Deanimator
September 11, 2009, 12:22 PM
It seems sometimes that many forum members would never even consider the use of ball ammunition in their pistols for the purpose of self defense
And I'm one of them.

I'm not worried about my lawyer and me defending a good, intentional shoot.

I don't have ANY hope of defending killing a toddler hit by my through and through on a legitimate assailant. I may not be prosecuted. If prosecuted, I may not be convicted. If sued, I'll lose my behind, and if I used FMJs, deservedly so.

Shadow 7D
September 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
He has some great pics of ballistic gel for .32 and 9mm out of small guns ie pocket guns on his site. If I carried a .32 I would use ball or maybe the fiocci hp with exposed lead, don't really expect to expand but should get the penetration.

Vern Humphrey
September 11, 2009, 06:14 PM
In my humble opinion, it's the hole that does the job. The wider and deeper the hole, the better. An expanding bullet that feeds well, expands reliably and penedtrates deeply enough will always be better than a JHP.

chieftain
September 11, 2009, 06:57 PM
Well,

I am a person who has actually used a pistol and revolver in combat. Several times. I had ball ammo in both the 1911, and the S&W 38spl. No difference in the end results.

I carry JHP in both my 1911's, Browning Highpowers, and 38spl/357mag revolvers. And I carried a SIG 228 for years and used JHP's in it too. So do everyone else I know who carry weapons for a living, some who have actual combat experience.

We have found a correlation between JHP and more successful stops. Remember you are employing a weak ass handgun, don't expect any miracles regardless of platform or caliber. If you are serious of stopping bad guys, use a shoulder weapon. Shotgun or rifle/carbine.

I ended my working career as a Critical Care Registered Nurse. While working in an inner City ER I found we couldn't tell the difference between calibers. We could tell the difference between JHP and FMJ when handguns were used but one caliber or another did not really make a difference.

No doubt REMF's know a lot more about these things than the professionals do.

America it is still a free country and allows anyone to prove Darwin right.

Go figure.

Fred

PS:

http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

This will put you in M4Cabine.net's Terminal Ballistic forum. Dr Gary K Roberts is the leading researcher in America today. He worked for/with Dr Flackler, and assumed his work when Dr Flackler retired. FBI and many LEO agencies use Dr Roberts Data and research.

Actual LEO Officer involved shootings have substantiated Dr Roberts work. You know real life agrees with the research. Hopefully this will put many of the myths to bed.

One of my own jokes have been that for years even no less 45acp luminaries as Chuck Taylor and LtCol Cooper have admitted the lack of penetration problems the 45acp suffered from. On the other hand for 80 years the biggest knock on the 9mm has been over penetration. Today's arguments make me laugh like hell.


In Oct 1989 a Philly officer was killed by a 38 +P SJHP fired by another officer that passed through the torso of a felon before striking the officer.

There is the bad guy in Santa Maria CA, about 1992 who shot himself twice while moving his murdered wife's dead body; the bullet went through his hand, through her body, and into his arm again.

In Dec 1995 in Globe AZ a police 9mm Hydra Shok exited the torso of Mr. Jeffrey Lash and killed his son standing behind him.

In LA county in the early 90s IIRC, a 147 JHP went through a felon, through a glass door behind him, and into an innocent person in the store.

From the NY Times, March 1997, source NYPD's SOP 9 report:

"The report released Thursday covers shootings from 1995 and 1996. Of the six innocent bystanders struck by hollow-point bullets fired by police officers in the Transit Bureau, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another by a bullet that passed through an object. Of 15 bystanders shot by conventional, full-metal-jacket bullets, five were hit by bullets that had passed through another person and two by bullets that had gone through an object.

Forty-four police officers accidentally shot themselves or were accidentally shot by other officers over the same two years, according to the report. Of the 40 officers shot by full-metal-jacket bullets, two were hit by ricochets, 17 were hit by bullets that passed through other people and two were struck by bullets that passed through objects. Of the four police officers shot by hollow-points, one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

Fifty-six suspects were shot and killed by police officers over the last two years. Forty-one of them were killed by full-metal-jacket bullets, 14 of which passed through other people first and one of which first passed through an object. Fifteen others were killed by hollow-point bullets, four of which passed through other people first."

So about one third of the innocent people and cops hit were hit by shoot throughĎs. Maybe why NYPD dumped FMJ and went JHP soon after?

F

zt77
September 12, 2009, 12:09 AM
.45 ball does overpenetrate. had one go through my pelvic bone, ricochet off a concrete floor, and .5 an inch into a wood stud. still have the bullet, just a little bent up. I'm just lucky that wasn't a JHP....

jim243
September 12, 2009, 02:16 AM
I donít know why but the subject of what is the best type of bullet hollow point or FMJ or if 9 mm is better than 45 ACP always comes up.

If I am shooting at paper targets, I really donít care and it does not make any difference.
But if I am shooting to save my life or that of a family member, then it makes one BIG difference.

Here is what I expect of the bullets that I would use for self-defense:

1. If I am shooting at a personís head, I want the bullet to impact like a sledge hammer, crack the skull, shatter bone and make its way into the brain and do the most damage it can. (head shots are my favorite)
a. No clothing to hang up in.
b. Bad guys do not generally wear metal helmets.
c. Clean line of sight right between the eyes.
2. If I have to shoot through a car window:
a. Side windows shatter more easily and are almost flat.
i. There is less protection from the side than in the front. (no steering wheel, dash, gauges.)
ii. All else fails, shoot through the car door, the thin metal and padding in the door will not stop a bullet from hitting the driver.
iii. And if the weather is nice, they are usually open.
b. Front and rear windows are a no no.
i. Angled glass will general result in a deflected shot.
ii. Front glass is thicker. (ever have a stone hit your windshield at 60 MPH, most will just bounce off)
iii. Safety glass will crinkle and make follow up shots harder.
iv. Donít shoot the perp in the back, it looks bad on your resume or trial docket, unless he or she is trying to run over grandma.
3. If I am shooting at center mass, I want a bullet that:
a. Will go through 3 to 4 layers of winter clothing.
b. That will break bones (ribs, chest plate)
c. That will expand to twice itís original size within six inches of penetration.
d. That will leave at least a 9 inch wound channel. (yah, I know the FBI wants a 12 inch one, but what do they know, they still canít find Jimmy Hoffa.)
e. That will produce a entry and exit hole to collapse the lungs.

So what are we looking at:
1. A 125 to 158 grain Jacketed Hollow Point bullet.
2. 1,100 to 1,500 fps.
3. A sectional density of .350 or better.
4. And maybe about 8 grains of gun powder.

Letís see 45 ACP is too slow and 9 mm just doesnít have the mass.

Gee, that sounds like a .357 Mag round to me. What you put it in is your choice.

Jim

zt77
September 12, 2009, 02:05 PM
if you shot at a driver's back while they were trying to run over someone then you are likely to be shooting at the person they are trying to hit as well.....

Loyalist Dave
September 12, 2009, 02:38 PM
The question has too many variables (imho). HP's that expand (most of the current designs are very good; older ones not so much) are better in most situations... the bigger the hole the better. BUT, when you may have to deal with a situation with various forms of cover, then YES a FMJ might be a better bet. I found out first hand in a SD situation that cars/trucks are better cover than most folks understand, and a JHP that opens (as it should) may not be able to get to the bad guy inside a car or truck, or when it does it doesn't do the job, while a FMJ will do the job. BEFORE you have to worry about over-penetration, you have to have penetration, if the bullets don't reach the badguy..., all else is moot. I would prefer to use a 50/50 mix of JHP/FMJ's in my .40 S&W, but if you are concerned about defense inside a dwelling then FMJ is not a good idea (as was mentioned in a previous post.)

LD

bigfatdave
September 12, 2009, 08:30 PM
a JHP that opens (as it should) may not be able to get to the bad guy inside a car or truck, or when it does it doesn't do the job, while a FMJ will do the job.Hollow points don't open up when they encounter glass, metal, leather, plastic, or fabric ... they may not open AFTER passing through automotive materials, but they will punch through about as well as semi-wadcutters would.
There is no magic bullet that is best for every situation, but I'm not about to load up with FMJ/TMJ or some trick fragmenting ammo just in case, I'll take the kind that makes nice deep holes and makes a nice pressure wave as it expands ... and that meant good quality hollow-points traveling fast enough to expand reliably.
Also, if staggering your magazines makes you happy, have fun with it so long as you remember that you probably won't remember what's in the pipe after a few shots ... now on the other hand, if one was carrying more than one spare mag, why not fill one of the spares with hot FMJ? I'll have to think on that, it would require some method to differentiate the ball ammo magazine from the HP ammo magazine by touch or something ... or I could just carry a BUG with ball ammo, like a KT P32 or something similar.

If you enjoyed reading about "JHPs do they really make a big difference?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!