How would you deal with this "uncovered" undercover gun?


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Hokkmike
September 8, 2009, 03:03 PM
I know a man who carries in church. I don't think it is necessary but have no problem if somebody wants to do it. Not that it would matter if I had a "problem" with it anyway.

But, on more than one occasion because of how he positions his holster, clothing choice, etc., various members of the congregation have seen the weapon. Most don't seem to care some are a little scared.

So, here is my question. As a part of leadership (in the church) or just as a fellow CWP owner should I let on to this gentleman that his piece is showing from time to time inferring that perhaps he needs to make some adjustment in his mode of carry?

Or, is it, none of my business?

What say you?

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Sam1911
September 8, 2009, 03:08 PM
If you are part of the church leadership, then yes, this would be appropriate for you to handle.

I would take a moment to speak to him in private and simply discuss it with him.

If he's willing to be more careful not to show it, that's all need be done.

You might mention that being more discreet would possibly decrease the likelihood that the church will need to make an official policy on the subject.

A church is going to almost always going to go with whatever policy makes more of the parishoners more comfortable -- and that might not be favorable to his right to carry there...

-Sam

9mm+
September 8, 2009, 03:24 PM
+1 Sam1911. Discussing this with him using discretion is paramount, and as a church leader, you are obligated to think for the better of your congregation. I don't think this is a big deal, but you don't want it to go unaddressed.

Norinco982lover
September 8, 2009, 03:25 PM
I would definitely mention it to him.

Is open carry legal where you are at? (just curious).

I carry to church but I wear my XD45C in a supertuck and wear an appropriate cover garment.

~Norinco

CoRoMo
September 8, 2009, 03:29 PM
Throw him a bone and let him know it is a little too obvious. He might want to know, or he might not care at all.

Those who'd say it is none of your business are partially right, but if he doesn't know that he's getting made so easily, so often, he could use a little heads-up.

If I was failing to conceal, in such an obvious way, over and over again without knowing it, I'd hope a 'friend' would give me a hint.

eatont9999
September 8, 2009, 03:38 PM
Ask him what he is carrying. If he does not get it by then, one would assume he does not grasp the concept of CC. Just be polite and gentle. Don't piss him off if you can avoid it. The more people who carry in church, the safer it is...IMO

hso
September 8, 2009, 04:24 PM
Be direct and let him know that he isn't being successful in concealing his carry gun.

Sam1911
September 8, 2009, 04:33 PM
Is open carry legal where you are at? (just curious).
He's in PA, so yes. However, if the church happens to institute a "no guns" policy because he makes the others uncomfortable, then it could affect him. He could still carry, legally, but the pastor or other leaders would probably have to ask him to leave in honor of the policy and he'd have to comply or face tresspass charges.

-Sam

danprkr
September 8, 2009, 08:31 PM
Sam1911 - nailed it in my opinion.

4v50 Gary
September 8, 2009, 08:43 PM
I think Sam is right.

However, if he's a good member, I'd hate to discourage him from carrying but would encourage him to carry more discretely. There have been shoot-em-ups at churches too and I'd rather have someone who can shoot back than have the congregation slaughtered.

el gato
September 8, 2009, 08:44 PM
In a friendly, (in case you havent noticed, your ppd is showing). I would suggest he sit in a location that allowed him to observe as many entrance's/exit's as possible.

cchris
September 8, 2009, 09:09 PM
Interesting. In South Carolina, adult males are still required to bring a rifle to church on Sunday in defense of Native attackers, or something of that sort.

content
September 8, 2009, 10:14 PM
Hello friends and neighbors \\ +1 Sam1911

Perhaps discuss things with Pastor/other church leaders and come to an agreement whether this is innocently being spotted or a mild form of brandishing ( not saying it is). Next time it comes up you are all on the same page when explaining things to spotter. The spotter will be looking for firearm now and word might have spread.

The Pastor IMHO should be the one to mention something. They normally have a great feel for these things and need to be in the center of the loop. Once spotter knows Pastor is handling situation this should be enough.

THE DARK KNIGHT
September 8, 2009, 10:14 PM
Interesting. In South Carolina, adult males are still required to bring a rifle to church on Sunday in defense of Native attackers, or something of that sort.

Sorry, I'm a yankee. Is that humor or churches down in SC really have that tradition?

I know around here the masonic lodges have a man with a sword at the door as part of tradition.

Paul82
September 8, 2009, 10:19 PM
House of God. I dont think you should carry to the Church. Leave it in the car or go home and go back out again if you have to go out for something after Church.


Then again gary made a good points -"However, if he's a good member, I'd hate to discourage him from carrying but would encourage him to carry more discretely. There have been shoot-em-ups at churches too and I'd rather have someone who can shoot back than have the congregation slaughtered"-

HKUSP45C
September 8, 2009, 10:33 PM
House of God. I dont think you should carry to the Church.

Is this because you think God forbids self defense, churches don't get robbed or because maniacs don't enter churches and start shooting people?

Just sayin'

You'd be wrong on all three counts.

Paul82
September 8, 2009, 10:49 PM
thats why I said gary has a good idea. I used edit, I forgot to say that.

PandaBearBG
September 9, 2009, 12:45 AM
+1 on talking to him discreetly, if you make a big deal it becomes a big deal. He has the right, he goes to church so I assume he is a good upstanding citizen. And +1 on letting the pastor know.

catspa
September 9, 2009, 12:58 AM
cchris: In South Carolina, adult males are still required to bring a rifle to church on Sunday in defense of Native attackers, or something of that sort.

I'd start attending church this very Sunday if that was the official policy (haven't been to church in years).

Parker

9MMare
September 9, 2009, 03:49 AM
Is this because you think God forbids self defense, churches don't get robbed or because maniacs don't enter churches and start shooting people?



Agreed. 'Murder' is wrong. We all know that. As a responsible gun carrier, you would only use it to save a life or lives. I think God would be on your side.

That said, that is my interpretation of His word. It isnt everyones'.

cchris
September 9, 2009, 04:08 AM
Sorry, I'm a yankee. Is that humor or churches down in SC really have that tradition?

It's one of those laws they never bothered to get rid of from long ago, like the ones about not tying giraffes to lamp posts and not bathing donkeys on the second floor of an apartment, etc. But it was gun and church related, and still a bit humorous that it was never repealed.

armoredman
September 9, 2009, 04:54 AM
The no weapons in churches came about in an attempt to stop brigands from stealing the silver and gold altar plate. I doubt it has any basis in Scripture.
Discreetly, of course, but also ask him what trianing he has, and would he like to go shooting sometime.

Sam1911
September 9, 2009, 08:41 AM
Perhaps discuss things with Pastor/other church leaders and come to an agreement whether this is innocently being spotted or a mild form of brandishing ( not saying it is).

This is touching on something I wanted to say before. If you could speak to the man very privately, one-on-one, you might diffuse an unfortunate situation.

You need to get a feel for whether he's completely unaware that he's "printing/showing" or if he's sort of a "casually concealed" type who really doesn't care if the gun shows. Or even the type who sort of wants others to see it, but isn't quite ready for Open Carry (hey, it happens).

If he's blissfully unaware, he should be quite willing to fix the issue and might even be a bit embarrassed.

If he falls into the other camp, it may be reasonable to bring a little mild pressure to bear: Telling him that some folks are uncomfortable and would he mind covering up more carefully while he's attending church might do the trick.

If he seems unresponsive to that concern, then you can up the ante a little. Remind him that all need to feel welcomed in church, and that -- if this situation can't be solved through a simple conversation -- the next step will have to be involving the pastor and other elders in making a decision on the matter. Which could certainly lead to the church considering enacting a policy on firearms on church property. Not that you can say what that policy would entail, exactly, but that it could negatively impact his carry options.

I'm sure it won't escalate, but some folks are weird, and church relations have gone sour over less significant things before -- many times.

Whatever you do, approach him as one who understands his views and his choice to go armed. That will give him every excuse to do the right thing without a fuss.

Good luck!

-Sam

DHJenkins
September 9, 2009, 10:07 AM
As part of the church leadership, it is sort of your job to make sure all of the parishioners 'have a good time' at services. If some of them are being put off by someone who can't properly conceal their weapon, you should talk to him about it.

Just explain that he has a right to do it, but he needs to take into the account the feelings of his fellow churchgoers, which, as a good <insert religion here>, he should have no problem with.

Let us know how it goes.

Hokkmike
September 9, 2009, 11:07 AM
As part of the church leadership, it is sort of your job to make sure all of the parishioners 'have a good time' at services. If some of them are being put off by someone who can't properly conceal their weapon, you should talk to him about it.

Just explain that he has a right to do it, but he needs to take into the account the feelings of his fellow churchgoers, which, as a good <insert religion here>, he should have no problem with.

Let us know how it goes.

Yeah, thanks. At this point I don't plan to do anything.

wilkersk
September 9, 2009, 11:28 AM
I've seen several not-so-concealed carrys lately. Some are very quick to show off their permits to anyone who mentions they've noticed. I don't know why they don't just open carry, its legal in my state.

Just as with many other social indiscretions these days, I've decided just to stay on my toes and yet not say anything.

There are too many jerks in the world. Its becoming more like the wild west than the wild west ever was. Which is why I'm discreetly carrying and training a lot more often these days.

Joist
September 9, 2009, 11:34 AM
Sorry, I'm a yankee. Is that humor or churches down in SC really have that tradition?

I know around here the masonic lodges have a man with a sword at the door as part of tradition.

'Bring your gun to church' laws were also enacted in Colonial-era Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, South Carolina and Georgia.

The tyler is stationed outside the door of the Lodge to keep off the uninitiated and eavesdroppers. It's generally a fairly wimpy blade, but how many times do you have to poke somebody before they get the message?

Sam1911
September 9, 2009, 11:48 AM
At this point I don't plan to do anything.

Do you know at what point you will do something? Will you approach him if you see the gun again or someone else tells you that they did?

It's probably best to have the interaction thought through before hand and do so at a time and place of your choosing. It's probably worst to simply allow things to go on until you're pushed into a reaction at an awkward moment (for him and you).

If you're part of the leadership, then this is a leadership matter. Leadership conferrs certain responsibilities and solving problems before they happen is the most appropriate kind of shepherding.

-Sam

armslist
September 9, 2009, 11:54 AM
So you're just going to let it be for now?

DHJenkins
September 9, 2009, 12:30 PM
It seems like the OP was expecting a lot more "mind your own business" responses and had already made his mind up.

I can see no good reason for letting things be if they are obviously making other parishioners uncomfortable, because as Sam said, it's more than likely going to lead to some sort of unpleasant situation in the future.

Hokkmike
September 9, 2009, 12:42 PM
It seems like the OP was expecting a lot more "mind your own business" responses and had already made his mind up.

I can see no good reason for letting things be if they are obviously making other parishioners uncomfortable, because as Sam said, it's more than likely going to lead to some sort of unpleasant situation in the future.

I was expecting a lot more "mind your own business responses" but definately do not have my mind made up.

It is best for me to think throught things a while when circumstances permit. I have done too many things in my life that I should have done otherwise.

If anybody here can tell me how to properly quote a post pleae fill me in....

Thanks!

jbrown50
September 9, 2009, 01:27 PM
Be direct and let him know that he isn't being successful in concealing his carry gun.

As already said by hso and others here, be direct and tell him privately that his concealment method isn't working. Also mention that it's a distraction from the purpose of the church service. He'll understand and likely will be a little red faced as well. Don't discourage him from carrying but encourage him (and maybe even help him) to work on a better method of concealment.

Sam1911
September 9, 2009, 01:36 PM
If anybody here can tell me how to properly quote a post pleae fill me in....


Just sent you a PM.

-Sam

GeorgeF
September 9, 2009, 01:41 PM
Thats interesting. Where I live (suburbs of Philadelphia, PA), there is an older (60's maybe) Asian gentleman who I see frequently in our Church. The interesting thing about him is that he carries a pistol rug with him - you know, the pistol case that unzips almost all the way around and opens up.

Its not too big, but I bet you could cram a 1911 in there - I'm assuming its something smaller. Hell, it may even just be used as a 'man-purse' for all I know. I'm dying to ask him, but dont want to embarass him.

I'm curious as to how your situation works out...

Battlespace
September 9, 2009, 01:52 PM
I carry off of my person to church. I made a Bible cover look-a-like out of a day planner with some foam rubber for cushioning. I carry it and my wife carries our Bible and no one is the wiser. My M1911A1 is very happy being carried in that manner a couple of times a week and then slips into its normal position in my IWB once in the parking lot.

Hokkmike
September 9, 2009, 01:57 PM
Just sent you a PM.

Thanks Sam!

Robert
September 9, 2009, 02:11 PM
As a founding member of our church's security team I would say that if you do not already have one it might be a good idea to start one. It is sad that we now need armed security at church but these are the times we live in. Our team is encouraged, by our Pastor, to get a CWP and carry if they are so inclined. But we must at all time keep our weapons concealed. We even go so far to bring in an instructor every three months or so so that anyone wanting to can take the concealed carry class. The class is open to all members of the church. I would run it by your lead Pastor and see what he thinks, and address the issue with the gentleman one on one over coffee sometime.

eflatminor
September 9, 2009, 02:22 PM
You don't think it's necessary? If a crazy person came in your church to kill people and was stopped by this guy, would you still think it unnecessary? We can rest assured your fellow churchgoer isn't going to hurt anyone, so I'd say what is unnecessary is bothering him.

HKUSP45C
September 9, 2009, 08:26 PM
Thanks Sam!

You can also use {quote=UserName}insert text{/quote} to make it look like the post I just made of your quote ... obviously you'd replace the {s with [s

MD_Willington
September 10, 2009, 01:54 AM
Churches get robbed, crazy people show up and shoot people...

Carry in church, to each their own I guess...

Capt Marvel
September 11, 2009, 10:38 PM
As former career military, it was common to see armed personnel show up a church services. Point here is your perception of what is justifiable. Look like a member of Hell's Angles and you raise a lot of eyebrows. Look well groomed and professional and few will question you. But if you carry, carry 24/7, not just when you think you may run into a bad guy. In the past 6 months on 2 different occasions owners came very close to my shooting their man eating dogs.

Deltaboy
September 11, 2009, 10:42 PM
Talk to the man in private and that should take care of it.

chuckusaret
September 12, 2009, 02:01 PM
The deffinition of concealed is: 1. hide person or thing: to put or keep something or somebody out of sight or prevent the person or thing from being found
2. hide fact or feeling: to keep something secret or prevent it from being known .

Here in Florida this guy is in violation of the CCW law and should be called to task.
Ref Florida Statute: 790.001 Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:

(2) "Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection

(6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

Sam1911
September 12, 2009, 02:45 PM
The deffinition of concealed is: 1. hide person or thing: to put or keep something or somebody out of sight or prevent the person or thing from being found
2. hide fact or feeling: to keep something secret or prevent it from being known .

Here in Florida this guy is in violation of the CCW law and should be called to task.

BUT, the guy is in PA. His License To Carry Firearms does not require that he conceal his weapon. He could carry it openly if he so chose (actually, he could do that without a permit). Or concealed, or anywhere in between.

So, your, or anyone else's, definition of "concealed" doesn't matter in the slightest.

The problem could be that, if someone notices his gun, and if he is asked by the church to remove his weapon, he must comply or he would be in violation of trespassing laws.

We're trying to advise the O.P. how to diffuse this situation before it escalates into a situation where the church decides it has to write and enforce an official policy on guns. A policy that might cause the parishioners to have to choose between going defenseless or violating church policy.

(Even in the case of an "no guns" policy being enacted by the church, those who continued to carry concealed weapons to church would still be ok in the eyes of our law.)

-Sam

Uncle Mike
September 12, 2009, 02:59 PM
Pretty rough churches or what?

Why would one need to carry in church...surely you don't think you might get ambushed on the walk from the church to the vehicle....

Leave it in the car....then strap up after wards, if it's going to cause problems.

It really does not matter where one is at while packing, there will always be someone who takes offense to you carrying a gun.

Sam1911
September 12, 2009, 03:08 PM
Pretty rough churches or what?

Why would one need to carry in church...surely you don't think you might get ambushed on the walk from the church to the vehicle....

It's too bad you can't read sarcasm very easily over the web -- I'm 90% sure that was said "tongue-in-cheek."

But, in case it wasn't, have you somehow missed the number of very high-profile church shootings, armed robberies, and murders that have made the news in the last couple of years?

There's no good reason to disarm for church, any more than you would at the bank, a restaurant, bar, the mall, or any other place -- unless draconian laws in your area require you to be a victim.

-Sam

metallic
September 13, 2009, 06:46 PM
Five Dead, 5 wounded in church shooting (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html)

How quickly we forget. I would carry concealed at church if I had the ability.

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