Need 44 mag using h110 advice


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profman
September 8, 2009, 10:47 PM
could i get some advice? developing a hunting load.

shooting thompson contender 14 inch barrel using blue dot 16.2 gr in remington 44 mag case, 240 gr winchester jhp and winchester large pistol primer. i finish the load with lee factory crimp die. this shoots well in the contender, but not really happy with the accuracy.

got some h110 and started with 22 grains and other components are the same. the group was mediocre, but the cases were sticky coming out of the barrel. no other sign of pressure. when shooting with 22.5 gr h110, the cases were definitely sticking in the barrel with no other signs of pressure. i stopped and did not shoot the test loads with 23 gr h110.

i loaded another five cases using 21 gr h110 and the cases did NOT stick. but the group at 25 yards was about 4 inches. are the sticky cases showing real pressure signs using the h110? i am below the published max load of 24 grains h110, so i am stymied what to do next to find an accurate load using h110 in my barrel?

should i continue testing with the 23 grain and higher until i reach the published max of 24 grains?

should i cut back on the crimp (Lee FCD) so the bullet starts moving earlier in the pressure cycle?

thanks in advance.

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FROGO207
September 8, 2009, 11:18 PM
You can run into trouble with H110 going to hi or low. I have found it rather fussy to work with. Might try H4227, unique or 800X in that order or some other like powder. I use Bluedot with my 10" barrel super blackhawk and find it quite accurate with 240 GR lead bullets. My brothers carbine likes 16.1 GR Accurate #7 with 240 GR Zero bullets.

bluetopper
September 8, 2009, 11:23 PM
Try 2400 or AA4100.;)

NCsmitty
September 9, 2009, 12:27 AM
Welcome to THR, profman.

I'm not sure why your pressures appear to be elevated at the lower charges except possibly the chamber throat is short and the jump to the lands is causing the problem.
You're probably crimping in the cannelure, so just make sure that your not engraving the bullet into the lands.
The powder situation with H110 is a bit curious really.
Perhaps if you try lil'gun, it may be more forgiving, and some folks have good luck with the heavier bullets when using it.

www.hodgdon.com



NCsmitty

Randy1911
September 9, 2009, 01:50 AM
I give another vote for 2400. I don't like H110. It is so fine a powder that it leaks out of my powder measure and make a mess. I also have trouble with Unique not metering well. I loaded up some 44 mag test loads tonight and these were my observations. Good luck with what ever you deciede to use.:)

Hutch
September 9, 2009, 10:42 AM
Full-rip H110 loads in my 10" Contender shoot just fine. Can you think of any differences in the batches you reported on?

Edited to add: 21g may be too low for complete ignition. You might also try a CCI LPM primer. Winchester LP primers are rated for "Standard or Magnum" loads, but I'd want the hottest cap I can get, which is not likely to be Winchester.

Ben Shepherd
September 9, 2009, 11:20 AM
How's your neck tension? You should be able to litterally see the bullet in the case.

I also suggest going to a dedicated "magnum" primer as well.

Walkalong
September 9, 2009, 11:22 AM
Try AA #9 or N110. Ditch the FCD and use a regular crimp die.

Steve C
September 9, 2009, 12:31 PM
got some h110 and started with 22 grains and other components are the same.

When you are not getting good results go back to the data and see where you are off. Hodgdon lists the 240gr 44mag load with a start level at 23.0grs and a maximum at 24.0grs. This range is the same as listed in Speer #13 and other sources.

H110 is a volume sensitive powder and it loads should follow the published data or you can have problems. Hodgdon says not to reduce H110 below 3% to start with to avoid squibs and erratic pressure. You are well below these guidelines.

I'd suggest that you increase your load to a minimum of 23grs, I think your problems will clear up.

Clark
September 9, 2009, 01:03 PM
Steve C wrote:
When you are not getting good results go back to the data and see where you are off. Hodgdon lists the 240gr 44mag load with a start level at 23.0grs and a maximum at 24.0grs. This range is the same as listed in Speer #13 and other sources.

If you go back to "Speer 8" you will see;
A) 44 special 240 gr JSP, 16 gr H110 start, 18 gr H110 max.
B) 44 mag 240 gr JSP, 21 gr H110 start, 23 gr H110 max.

My experiments show that H110 is fussy about charge if not given a firm roll crimp. But with a good roll crimp, I can reduce to very low loads.

SlamFire1
September 9, 2009, 06:39 PM
I conducted a bunch of W296/H110 testing in my Marlin rifle. After testing I came to the conclusion that W296 and H110 were the same thing. Incidentally, this month's Handloader confirms this.

I started at 24.0 grains and worked up to 24.5 grains.

Maybe you should have started at 23.0 and worked up to 24.0

H110 shoots well, but the manufacturer does not recommend loads below the starting level.

S&W M629-4 5" Barrel

240JHP R-P 24.0 grs H110 Midway cases WLP
9-Oct-05 T = 66 F
Ave Vel =1228
Std Dev =21.47
ES =70.16
Low =1268
High =1197
N=22

M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel



240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F

Ave Vel =1725
Std Dev =7
ES =21
Low =1715
High =1736
N =5


240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05T = 65 F
Ave Vel =1752
Std Dev =12
ES =28
Low =1735
High =1763
N =5


240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F

Ave Vel =1710
Std Dev =3
ES =9
Low =1705
High =1714
N =5



240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F

Ave Vel =1745
Std Dev =12
ES =45
Low =1723
High =1768
N =10


240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F

Ave Vel =1719
Std Dev =10
ES =29
Low =1705
High =1734
N =10

Ben Shepherd
September 9, 2009, 06:46 PM
My experiments show that H110 is fussy about charge if not given a firm roll crimp. But with a good roll crimp, I can reduce to very low loads.


You've blown up a lot more firearms than myself in the pursiut of knowledge, so I'm curious- IME neck tension is the more critical component in this case. Firm/heavy crimp is needed, but I've found a good crimp is useless without adequate neck tension. Thoughts?

SlamFire1- NICE numbers out of that Marlin. Those low ES numbers are impressive. What are the groups like?

Clark
September 9, 2009, 07:46 PM
delete function?

Clark
September 9, 2009, 07:49 PM
You can only get ~ .002" of neck tension.
You can make the brass allot smaller, but ~.002" is the elastic limit, the rest is plastic deformation.
As the brass work hardens, the elastic limit gets larger.
You can measure this.
It is the difference between the die inside diameter and the outside diameter of the brass after being sized.
This is very easy to measure in the straight wall 44 mag coming out of a Carbide die.

To get a feel for how much more a roll crimp has an effect on starting pressure than neck tension, pull some bullets.
The ones with neck tension come out 10 times easier than the ones with neck tension.
should be The bullet pull out of a case with full neck tension 10 time easier than the ones with full roll crimp into a canalure
This extra starting pressure gives the H110 higher primer pressure and a delay which translates to a chance to ignite.

Walkalong
September 9, 2009, 08:26 PM
The ones with neck tension come out 10 times easier than the ones with neck tension. What did you mean to type?

SlamFire1
September 9, 2009, 08:45 PM
SlamFire1- NICE numbers out of that Marlin. Those low ES numbers are impressive. What are the groups like?

You won't want to read this, but I just looked at the targets.

I have a 2.5 inch five shot group at 100 yards, I have a 4 inch seven shot group. There are a couple that are much bigger. This rifle will hold the black and not much more.

I did some work on the rifle, don't remember if it was before or after the chronograph session. I think it was before.

Even with a Ballard barrel, it is not a tack driver.

profman
September 10, 2009, 12:46 AM
to clarify some questions, all my cases are loaded using lee turret press and the same die setting was used for all loads. the only difference was the powder. the bullet seats to the same overall length and does not hit the lands.

based on all my reading, i have always used a heavy crimp on the winchester cannelure.

for both blue dot and h110 loads, including 21 gr of h110, there was no unburned powder. at 22 gr of h110, the recoil was greater than 16.2 of blue dot.

note that i have been loading both at the top and bottom ends of blue dot trying to find an accurate load. suggested loads for accurate blue dot would be appreciated.

steve c - do i understand your recommendation that you think my pressure problem will go away at a higher powder load keeping all other conditions including heavy crimping the same? may i ask your reasoning?

i called hodgdon and the person i spoke to recommended NOT using a heavy crimp and 21 grains of h110.

i am experimenting with h110 because of all the recommendations from high road forums discussing 44 magnum that i had previously read. most of the time, the only knock that i read was to stay with full loads to be effective. i would like to be able to use h110 or else i have a powder that will just sit on my shelf.

Ben Shepherd
September 10, 2009, 01:02 AM
What brand of brass?

profman
September 10, 2009, 01:34 AM
What brand of brass?
remington brass

Ben Shepherd
September 10, 2009, 01:52 AM
Thought so. I've found it to be horrible brass in straight wall pistol calibers. Finally gave up on it and threw literally buckets of it in the scrap pile.

I've found it won't hold neck tension or crimp worth a darn at all. And I've had unexplained keyholing with it as well.

If everything else is lining up right and by the book with your handloads(sounds like it is), get a hold of some new cases from(in order of preference) Starline, Federal, or Winchester. Just about bet you a paycheck your results improve.

Steve C
September 10, 2009, 09:58 PM
steve c - do i understand your recommendation that you think my pressure problem will go away at a higher powder load keeping all other conditions including heavy crimping the same? may i ask your reasoning?

Basically that was what I'm saying. H110 and its brother W296 are both volume sensitive and need a high load density to burn properly, that is why the range from max to min on the recommended loads is generally very small. I've used H110 and W296 in both the .357 mag and .41 mag (even with Remington cases) and it works very well as long as you keep within the recommended 3% of maximum. While some people have downloaded it a little more and have not experienced problems I've talked to several reloaders that didn't read the directions very closely that wondered why they where getting squibs or poor accuracy with H110 and when quized about their loads they all loaded it lighter than recommended.

I would question if your perception of the cases being sticky is a sign of over pressure since you say there isn't any of the other signs like overly flattened, cratered or pierced primers.

Clark
September 11, 2009, 03:28 AM
The other problem is that a roll crimp is needed in hard kicking revolver to keep the bullets from pulling out and jamming the revolver.

With an S&W 25-2 in 45acp with long seated hot loads, the Lee factory crimp cannot hang on to a 300 gr cast bullet, and the revolver must be fired single shot.

profman
September 11, 2009, 09:28 AM
clark - i am using a single shot pistol. the only reason i use FCD is because of literature that recommends a heavy crimp to ensure full powder burn. i believe that is why the hodgdon guy recommended LESS crimp to reduce the pressure spike.

steve c - without any other changes other than the powder, and the case progressively sticking harder in the barrel as powder increases, (i have fired almost all manufacturer's 44 mag full loads without any case extraction issues), what other explanation besides pressure would explain the hard case extraction?

ben shepard - i will try other case manufacturers. however, i have other straight wall pistol cases from remington in other calibers that work very well indeed with full loads.

GooseGestapo
September 11, 2009, 09:52 AM
You just explained the problem.

You're using a LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE in .44mag.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Lee factory crimp dies for RIFLE CARTRIDGES..... BUT NOT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES.......

The sizer ring on the factory crimp die sizes down the fattest part of the load, to easily size in ANY chamber. In effect what you're doing is sizing the bullet down within the loaded cartridge and loosening the crimp that may have been previously installed. I think Lee did a huge disservice to REVOLVER cartridge loades by producing this die without a HUGE caveat that it not be used except where it is specifically needed.

Skip the Lee factory crimp die, and simply load and crimp with the Lee seater die.


What you're seeing with the H110 load is that the bullet and case are WAY undersized, and your're getting some strange interaction between the bullet, bore, and throat upon combustion. You could possibly be setting yourself for a generated bore obstruction condition as the bullet/case is not generating sufficient bullet pull, and could cause a "double-ignition", or a bore-obstruction situation. This is the so-called "detonation" scenario.

With the BlueDot accuracy situation, you're damaging the bullet ruining the loaded bullet by using the Lee FCD by sizing it down within the loaded cartridge. Your're also lossening the neck tension by squeezing down the brass over the bullet destroying most of the neck tension.... It's like resizing your loaded ammo in the sizer die... after its already loaded......just to eliminate the "buldge" which results from seating the previously "properly sized bullet".

Quit using the Lee FCD on the .44mag, and you'll see your accuracy improve drammatically........

These dies have their place with shooters using the 9mm in "speed matches" race guns that may have been previously fired in an oversized chamber that might result in a failure to fully lock closed. But, the 9mm is a "tapered" case and the sizer ring in the Lee FCD dosen't affect the bullet, just the rear portion of the case that might have been "swollen" oversized in a loose chamber.

Rifle FCD's are totally different and use a collet action to function to apply a crimp...... Similar name but a totally different critter.......

I do, however, use a Lee FCD for my 9mm loading, but it's a custom die and used to "post" size the base of 9mm cases as it was intended to do........

Ben Shepherd
September 11, 2009, 11:45 AM
The BEST die hands down for crimping straightwall revolver cartridges?

The Redding "Profile Crimp" die. It's the only one I use in 357, 41, and 44 mag, as well as 45 Colt.

flipajig
September 11, 2009, 12:34 PM
Another thought is look at your load datta and see what the test componets were.
(IE) the barrel leanth and type of gun used. I dont use H110 so im not familuar with using the powder I use 2400 and the powder charges are different for the contender to the revalver data and the same for the carbine data. I have all 3 a super 14 contender,7 1/2 in blackhawk and a M94 in 44 mag. I shoot hard cast and Nosler JHP In the contender and BH so you have to pay attetion to your load datta for all 3..

buck460XVR
September 11, 2009, 03:26 PM
H110 gives me the best accuracy of any powder outta my PC M629. It also likes a firm roll crimp. I run 23 grains for targets and 23.5 for hunting with a 240 jacketed. I have no high pressure signs and recoil and bullet speed are similar to factory WWB 240 JSPs. Have you tried factory ammo? Is there any other signs of high pressure other that sticky extraction?

i called hodgdon and the person i spoke to recommended NOT using a heavy crimp and 21 grains of h110. ....this surprises me cause all info I have ever read from any manual, strongly recommends a heavy roll crimp for H110/W296, not only for bullet movement under recoil, but for complete ignition.

NCsmitty
September 11, 2009, 06:52 PM
profman, I've been giving your issue some more thought, and I have a 10" TC Contender myself, in 357 Maximum, and I shoot the heavier 180gr single shot pistol bullet over 22gr of Rel-7 and that load will give me some sticky cases occasionally. The Max load, with that powder is rated at 25gr, but I have not tried anything over the tested 22gr because it is very accurate. I have NOT chronographed that load.

With that in mind, it's possible that the Contenders with the closed breech may be more sensitive to the higher doses of powder listed, compared to revolvers which essentially bleed off pressure at the cylinder gap. And you are dealing with 14" of barrel to build up pressures.
It's probably a silly theory, but it may be a plausible explanation.

I do not use a crimp with the Rel-7 in the Contender and when I had my 44 Mag revolver, I used Alliant 2400 powder and normal crimps. I never cared that much for H110 and only use it in my heavy 410 shotshells.
I know when using H110, you're dealing with a powder with some idiosyncrasies.


NCsmitty

Gryffydd
September 11, 2009, 06:55 PM
The only reloads I've ever had totally fail on me were my first 6 loads in .45 Colt using H110.
My mistakes:
1. Too light of charge.
2. Regular LP primer.
I corrected those two, and increased the crimp *slightly*. Bingo, fantastic loads. Now for any given bullet weight I usually just load it to exactly 1 gr shy of max and I get great results every time from 250gr up to 335gr.

profman
September 17, 2009, 09:37 PM
thanks for all the comments.

i am going to load up another twenty rounds.

five rounds each using 23 and 23.5 grains of h110 and change the case to federals and winchester keeping the 240 gr winchester jacketed hollow point and winchester large primer and a light crimp using my standard rcbs seater crimper die.

will do the same for another five rounds each using the same seater die and crimp as heavy as i can.

this will test a few situations. that remington cases may not that good in 44 magnum and the crimp may or may not be the causing the pressure spike.

will be shooting them in a couple of weeks and will report results.

ArchAngelCD
September 17, 2009, 10:25 PM
I see nothing wrong with using H110/W296 for Magnum rounds. I don't know why everyone is telling him not to use H110. If you're looking for high velocities and good accuracy H110/W296 is the powder especially in the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. As long as you don't download those powders and use a Magnum primer you are fine.

counterclockwise
September 22, 2009, 01:22 AM
Finicky is the word when one grain difference of H110 will take you from 28,000 psi to 36,000 psi. Here is the warning from Hodgdon:

" H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

ArchAngelCD
September 22, 2009, 06:00 AM
So all that means is be careful when you reload which you should do no matter what powder you are using. I see no reason to pass on a good powder because if you make a mistake it will possible injure you. Like I said, that's true with all powders. I know there is less room for error with W296/H110 than others but I still use it when it's the best choice.

Walkalong
September 22, 2009, 08:18 AM
ArchAngelCD is right, nothing wrong with using H110 in magnums following the load books recipe's. Just don't try to download it as it was not meant for, nor is it good for, that. Simple enough.

alde
September 22, 2009, 03:36 PM
I have been using 23.5 grains of H110 and 240 grain XTP's in my 1894 Marlin with great success. They are very accurate and there are no signs of overpressure at all. When I fire the same loads in my 5" 629-3 Classic the cases stick in the chambers. They otherwise feel like factory 240 grain loads. I have not tried them in my 629-6 yet. It's only a 3" barrel and I'm not relly looking forward to shooting these loads in it. To add to the knowledge base I will try some in it this weekend and report back. BTW, I was also using Remington cases.

profman
September 29, 2009, 09:17 AM
i reloaded 10 shells each with 22.5gr and 23 gr h110 in both remington and federal cases using winchester lp primers and 240gr hollow points. for five of each set, i used the lee factory crimp die and for the other five, used the rcbs seater crimp. what i had was four sets of five cartridges, two sets using the lee fcd and two sets standard seater crimp, and one set each using remington and non-remington cartridges.

i also had my normal loads of 13gr blue dot and 16.2gr blue dot. shot a string of three of the 13gr blue dot and it produced a group of a little over 1 inch at 25 yards. cartridges ejected very easily.

shot the remingtion and federal 22.5gr h110 crimped with lee fcd and both sets were sticky coming out of the barrel.

shot the remington and federal 23gr h110 using rcbs seater die crimp and both ejected easily.

this seems to indicate that NOT crimping really tight or NOT using the Lee FCD seems to have the effect on my thompson. also seems to show that federal or remington does not have major effect on pressure. i will have to try to set up some loads with various crimps to try to narrow this down. not sure how to explain that my blue dot loads shoot well using the lee fcd.

none of the sets were able to group well. i got two sets of groups of two and three holes. the best was a group of four holes about 1.5 inches with a flyer about 1.5 away. now that i know that 22.5gr - 23gr h110 and maybe higher is good, i can try to find an accurate load.

comments?

Gryffydd
September 29, 2009, 01:22 PM
I don't see where you described the results of the 23gr loads using the FCD. Looking at the rest of your commentary I'd guess they stuck as well.

One thing I've noticed in loading my .45 Colt using the FCD is that with too much crimp, almost any load seems a little "sticky" coming out of the chamber. It almost seems to be not the whole case sticking but rather just the tip of the wall due to the way it has "folded" outwards. I'm going to do some measuring on some of my fired brass when I get home...
I also just picked up a Redding profile crimp die. So we'll see if that changes things.

alde
September 29, 2009, 01:25 PM
Great info profman. I will try loading some with the RCBS crimp die as well. I have been using the Lee FCD with the same load you are using with the same results in my 629.

profman
September 29, 2009, 07:21 PM
---I don't see where you described the results of the 23gr loads using the FCD. Looking at the rest of your commentary I'd guess they stuck as well. ----

i did not load any 23gr h110 with the lee fcd. this load was to see if any difference between remington and non-remington cases and NOT using the fcd. these did not stick. however, neither did they group well. not sure at this point if i should continue increasing or decreasing the powder by .2 grains.

Gryffydd
September 29, 2009, 07:33 PM
Ah gotcha...I read that as the FCD for 5 of each set being 5 of the 10 with 22.5 and 5 of the 10 with 23gr.
Given that it's Hodgdon's powder, I'd go with Hodgdon's data and increase (slowly) up to their 24gr max. At 24gr they show only 36kpsi. I wouldn't be surprised if the sticking has more to do with the crimps than the pressure, and in general accuracy with H110 improves as the charges increase. (To a point!) They show 23gr as the minimum!

alde
October 12, 2009, 10:50 PM
I have a bit of data to add.

I had the same problem with my 240 grain XTPs using 23.5 grains of H110 and WLP primers. The cases stuck in my 629-3 Classic and the primers looked a bit flattened out. I was using a Lee FCD on these rounds with once fired Remington shells.

I loaded up the same loads with the same shells except now they have been fired 3 times. Only difference is I did away with the FCD and just used an RCBS roll crimp. The problem went away. The empty shells just fell out of the cylinder and the primers looked just like they do when I use 8.5 grains of Unique. They were more accurate to boot. Looks like problem solved.

BTW I have the Hornady 7th addition in front of me. The charge ranges from 20.7 to 24.8. Please verify these numbers before using them. I only list them for reference.

profman
October 18, 2009, 12:02 PM
CAUTION: The following post are my results using my gun and components and may include loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

took a while to get back to the range with new loads.

here are my new test loads and results at 25 yards using h110, winchester lpp and 240 gr jacketed hollow soft point, rcbs seater and crimp:

winchester brass and 23.0 gr h110 - group size 2.5 inches.
winchester brass and 23.5 gr h110 - group size 2.0 inches.
winchester brass and 23.7 gr h110 - group size .8 inches.

every round was pretty easy case ejection with no pressure signs.

additional information leading up to the above results.

federal brass and 23.0 gr h110 - group size 2.5 inches.
federal brass and 23.5 gr h110 - group size 2.0 inches.
federal brass and 23.7 gr h110 - group size 0.75 inches


remington brass and 23.0 gr h110 - group size 2.5 inches.
remington brass and 23.5 gr h110 - group size 2.2 inches.
remington brass and 23.7 gr h110 - group size 0.8 inches.

i will continue to check the loads around 23.5 to 24.0 (listed hornady max) gr h110. while not conclusive, for my gun, the main issue was not the case, not the primer that was causing what looked like pressure signs in a gun that should take MORE pressure than 'normal' 44 magnum guns. remember that this is a single shot contender that is designed to handle 'hot' loads. the major change was NOT to use the Lee Factory Crimp die, and only slightly crimp using the rcbs bullet seater. it also didnt seem to matter which case i used, because the good groups all came in around the same powder load. for me, these groups look like a good hunting load.

by the way, i previously posted that i was using blue dot and was not happy with my load. i reloaded batches using blue dot and found that my gun does not like heavy blue dot loads. it seems medium loads work best with the best groups using 13.0 gr blue dot. again, these did not use the Lee Factory crimp die.

if i get some time, will try to do test some loads using the LFCD versus not using it and post the results.

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