Is AMERICA the ONLY country in the WORLD that allows concealed carry?


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cleetus03
September 8, 2009, 11:15 PM
For some reason this thought just came across my mind and I can't find any info on the blessed internet. Do any other countries in the world allow their citizens the freedom to ccw?

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conw
September 8, 2009, 11:42 PM
Most that allow licensed concealed carry (Canada, some Western European countries) have a much more difficult or impossible licensing process.

Yemen, I think, and some other Middle Eastern countries pretty much have an "anything goes" policy - full autos, etc.

I guess we're right in the middle theoretically (between full freedom and complete restriction), but freer than the majority of the world in reality.

Gamera
September 9, 2009, 01:02 AM
I know the Czech Republic allows concealed carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

They have to put those CZs to use somehow right?

MD_Willington
September 9, 2009, 01:09 AM
In Canada:

Type 3 Authorization To Carry, (ATC).

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-207/latest/sor-98-207.html

Pretty tough to get...

twofifty
September 9, 2009, 01:10 AM
Quote:

"Yemen, I think, and some other Middle Eastern countries pretty much have an "anything goes" policy - full autos, etc.

I guess we're right in the middle theoretically (between full freedom and complete restriction), but freer than the majority of the world in reality."

I've never thought of the Middle East as being a beacon of Freedom.

Tropical Buzz
September 9, 2009, 02:04 AM
Many countries allow their citizens to be armed, with varying degrees of bureaucracy, restriction and control. Most Caribbean countries have an application and licensing process.

Here in St. Lucia, all firearms require a permit and ALL handgun permits are for concealed carry except for special permits for sporting firearms which allow you to transport that gun to a firing range and require you to be a member of a recognised shooting association. With a regular handgun permit you are required to keep the gun concealed on your person and in your control at all times otherwise it must be securely stored. You are warned not to leave your gun in a vehicle because of the risk of it being stolen. If you own land greater than an acre in size, you can obtain an "estate license" for a rifle or shotgun. Licences are not easy to obtain as you must demonstrate you have a valid reason for needing a gun before a permit will be granted.

Generally, business people and professionals who own homes and/or property are a shoe-in for approval, but it is nowhere close to being a "shall issue" system and the whole process is quite subjective. Penalties for being in posession of an unlicensed firearm are stiff - first offense will net you an automatic $20k fine and a possible one year jail term.

All (legal) guns are registered by serial number and person to person transfers are not permitted. All sales and transfers must go through a designated and licensed dealer.

Of course, as with all gun laws, this only applies to those who abide by the law and the non law-abiding simply buy their guns on the black market.

Zoogster
September 9, 2009, 02:24 AM
Yemen, I think, and some other Middle Eastern countries pretty much have an "anything goes" policy - full autos, etc.


Actually Yemen ceased having that freedom in 2007 under pressure from Europe and the US antis to impose stricter small arms controls. They spun it as a local thing, but it was primarily a result of foreign pressure to eliminate the freedom.
Thier per capita murder rate was lower than the US.

Since then they have outlawed most of it, but since its such a strong part of the culture virtually everyone outside the main city ignores it and carries as before.
It could be a important change even for Americans as Yemen was once a main location to register vessels for tax purposes and various liberties that went with the flag. So if thier laws are worse, and you are sailing under thier flag, it could effect your freedoms at sea.

Many other nations that in reality have almost anything goes do not officially allow that. For example you can find plenty of videos of tourists firing machineguns, RPGs, and tossing grenades in Cambodia online. But that is not legal according to thier government.

There is many portions of the world where what is done, cultural expected or allowed, and what is officially legal according to the capitol many miles away are completely different.
Almost everyone has an AK in the tribal areas of Pakistan, but that is not legal under Pakistani law.


Governments like control, the only real power governments have to fall back on if necessary to preserve thier authority is use of force. That is not as easy or effective against an armed population. So governments around the world seek to disarm everyone except thier own military and LEO forces.
This had been the case for thousands of years. It is still the case today. The only time governments want thier average citizens to be armed historically is when the threat of losing thier authority to foreign invaders is greater than the risk from thier own population. Such as England facing the potential Nazi invasion.
As soon as that threat is over they want thier subjects to pose as minimal a force as possible.
That is why the UN, represented by most national governments in the world can completely agree that reduction of small arms held by citizens across the globe is a strong priority. Regardless of thier disagreements with each other, they all want thier subjects easier to efficiently manage.
It is easy to rule millions with tens of thousands if only the tens of thousands have effective arms. Or rule hundreds of millions with only hundreds of thousands. That is why gun control is always at its heart about control. They may exploit crying mothers and what is thought of as the stereotypical anti to achieve that objective, but it is an objective of governments globally.

That said many governments have no problem with thier citizens having some minor arms that would never be effective against the armed men employed by the government. They primarily want the citizens disarmed of effective fighting arms that could be used to resist thier will or authority, not all guns in general.
Brazil's laws exemplify this example. They prohibit almost anything that can defeat body armor, including virtually all rifle rounds. But they have little to no problems with people having handguns, or carbines in handgun calibers. No problem with serfs having arms to kill other serfs, as long as they can not legally have arms that pose a threat to the "king's men", or today's version the government's forces.
It's not about crime, it's about control.
Many governments don't care if thier citizens have shotguns, and are limited to ammunition that poses no threat to body armored LEO or armored transports.
They have processes and permits and red tape, but they will allow those things, not because they are less deadly, but because they are easy for the government to still crush with force if necessary.
Very few governments though will let thier serfs possess effective modern arms on par with thier own forces. Like the most modern centerfire rifles, or other armaments that pose similar risks to thier troops.

Which of course was the whole original point of the 2nd Amendment in the USA when the founders wrote it. So every locality and every state was a threat to eachother and to the federal government. So everyone was resistant to tyranny from eachother. So the body of the people was always a greater threat than a force which could be raised and used against it.
The very opposite of what almost every government wants today, and has wanted since recorded history: absolute centralized power and authority with minimal potential resistance or threats.

conw
September 9, 2009, 02:30 AM
Awesome post Zoogster.

armoredman
September 9, 2009, 04:21 AM
Absolutely, excellent post.
Mexico has a CCW permit system, but you better have BIG bucks and be in the buddy system with some big names.

GRIZ22
September 9, 2009, 07:59 AM
Germany and Austria issue concealed carry permits. Can't remember the particulars but they are easier to get in Austria.

Speedo66
September 9, 2009, 09:05 AM
I saw civilians possessing Uzi's in Israel in the 70's, not sure about handguns though.

scurtis_34471
September 9, 2009, 09:44 AM
Nicaragua is a nice up-and-coming stable Latin American democracy that allows both open and concealed carry.

PhrankKastle
September 9, 2009, 10:00 AM
I know when I was in Italy in the early 80's you could get a Porto d'armi concealed carry permit. They were very hard to get. I believe they are still available but I'm sure in the current state of affairs in Europe they are probably even harder to get now.

bltmonty
September 9, 2009, 10:11 AM
Ecuador allows concealed carry with appropriate permits.

Len S
September 9, 2009, 01:05 PM
"scurtis_34471 Nicaragua is a nice up-and-coming stable Latin American democracy that allows both open and concealed carry.
Today 08:05 AM"

Costa Rica allows ccw with a permit. As far as nicaragua being nice and stable one should look at their leadership. daniel ortaga of sandinista infamy. Also good friends with the nuts from venezuela and cuba. No caps used intentionally.


Len S

9teenEleven
September 9, 2009, 01:11 PM
A nice post Zoogster. However, to play devil's advocate, those who want to rise up against government control do not typically do so with the pure revolutionary spirit. All governments, even democratic governments naturally act in self-preservation. Sometimes the alternative to what is there is better, but more often than not, it is not.

ThrottleJockey72
September 9, 2009, 01:14 PM
Armoredman, can you please post a source for that Mexico thing? I have been under the impression that firearm ownership by civilians in Mexico was strictly forbidden.

Switzerland comes to mind for some reason.....

esq_stu
September 9, 2009, 02:19 PM
I believe that in Israel, a license to possess is a license to carry, concealed or open. Lots of people carry there, both ways. But is seems most prefer open carry there, except security personnel, for some reason.

Koos Custodiet
September 9, 2009, 02:26 PM
In South Africa, if you want to carry, it has to be concealed.

We do have mandatory registration too... takes about two years to get a licence.

Yellowfin
September 9, 2009, 04:28 PM
Belize has a pretty good concealed carry license system as my sources tell me, and from what I gather you can even get a license to carry there if you're a US resident.

berrieberrie
September 9, 2009, 05:10 PM
Belgium chiming in... Our Arms Act still contains a provision for a carry permit. No mention of it having to be concealed or not, though.

SpotlightRanger
September 9, 2009, 09:44 PM
Some Wiki- Don't know if it is any good or not.

Unlike most European countries the Czech gun laws allow its citizens to carry a concealed weapon without having any specific reason.

Slovokia

Gun licence can be issued for 6 categories (A - gun-toting, B - gun-holding, C - gun-toting for work purposes, D - long guns for hunting, E - sporting guns, F - guns collecting )

armoredman
September 9, 2009, 11:06 PM
Looks like the translator program could use a tweak - gun-toting? :)

Zoogster
September 10, 2009, 04:06 AM
....

Oyeboten
September 10, 2009, 04:20 AM
I'd imagine Greenland and Iceland would have very comfortable Gun Laws.


Does any one know on this?

armslist
September 10, 2009, 12:34 PM
Does anyone have a list of the "anything goes" countries?

I'd like to use that list to help plan my next few vacations!

Tropical Buzz
September 10, 2009, 01:30 PM
"Anything goes" might sound good to you from the point of view of allowing you to do what you want, but bear in mind it applies to all others as well and if someone else's intentions don't exactly mesh with your own, it could easily work against you.

As far as actually using a gun in a self defense scenario, I can speak for my country. The system here works heavily in favour of the person who shoots a would be criminal - as long as the weapon is licensed. Gun licenses (with the exception of sporting permits) are issued specifically for that purpose - to protect yourself, your family and your property from criminals. A number of people I know have shot in self defense and none were punished for doing so.

One fellow however, came under some scrutiny after a criminal was allegedly shot from his upstairs balcony with a shotgun. A neighbour had received a call from a police friend informing him that a boatload of armed smugglers running from the police had grounded their boat near his home and were fleeing uphill towards his property. He called his neighborhood watch group and they assembled at his home. Gunfire was heard, and soon one of them broke through the hedges and was crossing his lawn. When they shouted at him to halt, he spun towards them while backing quickly towards cover. A shot rang out and the man disappeared into the trees.

He was found dead a couple of hundred yards away, identified as one of the smugglers, but he was also unarmed. In court, my buddy argued that based on the information he got from the police and the gunfire he heard, he was in fear for the safety of his family, but the prosecution countered that he shot an unarmed man from the safety of his balcony. His lawyer got the case thrown out on the grounds that it could not be proven that it was his gun and not one of the police shotguns that actually killed the guy. Forensic science/ballistic investigation was not exactly state of the art here at the time.

A month ago I myself was forced to draw on a young thug threatening me with an icepick in the middle of a large crowd after a minor traffic altercation. Though it was a very close call, I ended up not having to shoot and the gang I was facing left the scene. Unfortunately however, someone reported to a nearby police detachment that I was threatening people with a gun. I ended up being detained briefly at the scene, but after presenting my license and explaining what had happened, they returned my gun and released me with a nod and a smile. Later I was told by their commanding officer who happens to be a friend, that if I had shot the guy, it would have been fully justified. I am thinking about posting a thread about this in Strategies & Tactics.

So, in a nutshell, the laws and system here make it a bit difficult to get a CC permit, but once you pass muster and get one, you are supported if you ever HAVE to use it. :)

BTR
September 10, 2009, 02:02 PM
BTW, Iceland has horrible gun laws. No pistols.

Cosmoline
September 10, 2009, 02:16 PM
In South Africa, if you want to carry, it has to be concealed.

I seem to remember that SA has some really odd gun laws. IIRC their strictest rules were against .22 rimfires because of their association with poaching.

withdrawn34
September 10, 2009, 04:33 PM
Very, very few countries have laws as "liberal" as our laws. In many of those middle eastern and former-soviet bloc countries, they may have plenty of weaponry in the hands of the common person, but it is generally not technically legal. All those countries "require" registration/licensing/etc, but it is not enforced because, well, the police force is small and those people obviously aren't going to let go of their weaponry - guns and other weapons which we could never even legally purchase as civilians in the US.

The US is incredibly unique in the world for more than one reason, the respect and acknowledgment of the importance of the citizen being one of the main reason. At least, that's how our country was founded. How many people, civilians included, think of things now is quite disturbing to say the least.

akodo
September 10, 2009, 08:06 PM
Twin Cities carry had a nice chart about the changing law.

Up until the 1970's you could conceal-carry anywhere without any permit simply because it wasn't addressed in the lawn, hence it was legal.

I think in some countries that was the case as well. (Heck, in the England of the Era of Sherlock Holmes even they could (and did) go about with handgun in the pocket)

However, I think we are the only country that thanks to formalized RKBA have been able to stem the tide and actually turn back such laws outlawing concealed carry, or at least reached the 'comprimise' of allowing it with permit

SpotlightRanger
September 10, 2009, 08:19 PM
BTW, Iceland has horrible gun laws. No pistols.

Curious. In some years there are no murders in the entire country. The population is only about 300,000, with near 100% literacy.

Zoogster
September 10, 2009, 09:53 PM
BTW, Iceland has horrible gun laws. No pistols.
Curious. In some years there are no murders in the entire country. The population is only about 300,000, with near 100% literacy.

Violent crime is not really connected to gun laws at all. Good or bad. Firearm freedoms simply help to create equality among young and old, male and female, able bodied and handicaped.

Places with a single homogeneous population, of one culture and one ethnicity, with a decent standard of living often have very low violent crime.

The most ethnically, politically, and culturally diverse places in the world tend to have the most violence.
Standard of living plays into the equation as well.
Both the United States and many parts of the Middle East for example are culturally, ethnically, politically, and religiously diverse.
While a place like Iceland is one people, with one culture, with a very tiny number of people that are not of the same religion, political beliefs, ethnicity, culture and standard of morality.

Quite simply very different people believing very different things, who have different values, cultures, appearances, and genetics (which effects everything from body/brain chemistry to behavioral predispositions) simply don't get along as well together.

Strict censorship (which I don't agree with at the government level) can also play a role in many places, keeping the same standard of morality and acceptance throughout the entire population. Keeping values and morals similar in the entire population, and acceptance and non-acceptance of various behaviors or beliefs mainstream. That can be both legal censorship or voluntary censorship based on things like religious values enforced by the community.

Japan is an often cited example. (and they have horrible gun laws.) Even in such a massive population the homogeneous population is not prone to homicide (but is prone to suicide.) They all think in a very collective way.
Shame is strong in anything done that is outside of what is expected by family or society. The wants and desires of the individual are culturally less important than those of the group.
So the culture does not see many manifestations of selfish homicides.
That is not to say that culture is better overall, in fact the extremely strong and pervasive culture of fantasy and escapism could be attributed to it. People seem to enjoy fantasy to a much larger extent, even more than thier own realities there.

withdrawn34
September 10, 2009, 10:16 PM
You'll also find that in more dense areas with the forementioned diversity, people don't really get to know each other or each others' kids... it is easy for criminals to develop and thrive in that environment. A small country town, on the other hand, and it is less likely to happen.

Speedo66
September 11, 2009, 09:54 AM
Curious. In some years there are no murders in the entire country. The population is only about 300,000, with near 100% literacy.

Gun possession has very little to do with the homicide rate.

If people want to kill each they will find a way, be it knives, clubs, machetes, or stacking tires around people and igniting them.

Iceland, and the other nordic countries, all have low murder (and other crime) rates.

More to do with their society model than the ability to possess guns.

DeadLiver
September 13, 2009, 02:22 AM
The Philippines, I discovered on my last visit earlier this year still has provisions for carry permits. You must first have a license to own a firearm (as far as I know, all guns are registered) and then you can apply for a permit to carry. I'm not too sure what the exact requirements and process are, as the guy at the gun store told me that the permits are only available to citizens. The cops in my wife's hometown though told me that they're available to everybody.
I don't know what the regs are there on Full Auto and cans there, but I did see an MP-5SD with the four position trigger group for about $900. I also saw some M4's with the fun switch for a little over a thousand, those were stamped U.S. Government.

NMGonzo
September 13, 2009, 09:53 AM
I saw a lot of open carry in Guatemala.

Glocks mostly ...

Argentina has CCW permits. Military and police personell are pretty much automatically granted due status.

Public servants have to apply, private citizens have to demonstrate the need (rural area, carry cash because business, etc)

.45StayAlive
September 13, 2009, 06:49 PM
CCW is permitted in Israel. We've all heard and read the stories of terrorists there getting gunned down by armed mothers and other citizens.

In one such incident described in John Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime" the (one) surviving terrorist of a group of three was quite annoyed after his escapade. He and his (dead) coherts had intended to kill a bunch of innocents at the first location they attacked, and then quickly move on to several more locations to continue perpetuating their mayhem. But as soon as they began their initial attack they were quickly dispatched by armed citizens.

Yeah!

Python
September 14, 2009, 10:34 PM
None that money cant buy in the Philippines, but in general if you go by the book only citizen of the that country are allowed to have Firearms (licensed renewable every two years) and permit to carry concealed (renewable every year). And yes you can own and license any firearms with full auto selector switch capable. You can even get a permit to carry concealed an M4 for example, but for the life of me, how do you conceal it specially in that country with hot and humid weather. I know quite a few friends who have permits including yours truly as I hold dual.
But the funny things is effective a month or so ago, no one is allowed to conceal waist carry anymore including off duty LE, only in bags, brief case or fanny pack anything not attach to the body. Talking about a bunch of administrative LE morons who initiated this ridiculous directive.

gondorian
September 14, 2009, 11:05 PM
Keep in mind that "America" as a country doesn't allow concealed carry, since it is not legal in IL. :(

megatronrules
September 14, 2009, 11:09 PM
I've read that panama is pretty easy to obtain a gun permit in. I've also read that a permit to own a gun is a permit to carry it concealed and loaded as well. I don't think they are true shall issue,ut it very easy to obtain the license if you have a clean background.

Fosbery
September 14, 2009, 11:13 PM
Most countries do have some form of legal gun carry for citizens. Heck, you can even get a permit to carry a concealed handgun in Britain! Of course, only politicians and a few people under threat from the IRA are able to get them. I think there's a few hundred nationwide, in a country of 60 million.

A lot of countries like Switzerland offer permits to people who deal with large sums of money or valuables, jewelry store owners for example, or people with a very specific reason e.g. being stalked.

Not sure what the laws are in Yemen/Iraq etc, but apart from that I think America is probably the only country with 'shall issue' concealed carry. Everywhere else has varying degrees of stringent criteria and bureaucracy.

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