500 S&W slip of .020-.025 and why is the Hornady taper die included in the set?


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IMtheNRA
September 9, 2009, 01:40 AM
I am loading 500 S&W using Hornady brass, Sierra 400-gr JSP bullet over 35 grains of Hodg. H-110. COAL=2.051-2.054. There is a bit of length variance due to the irregularities in the soft lead points of these bullets.

The case mouth is crimped right in the middle of the cannelure.

The maximum amount of crimp that I can apply with the seating die without buckling the case allows the bullet to slip forward 0.020 - 0.025 after 4 rounds are fired. The bottom of the cannelure is still inside the case, so I think that the bullet slips until the crimp gets past the narrow waist of the cannelure and then grabs hold of the wider bottom of the cannelure where it ends and the smooth jacket begins... I have a few questions:

1. Do you think this amount of bullet slip is acceptable?

2. Why is the 4th die in my Hornady 500SW set a taper crimp die? Is there a 500S&W revolver bullet that lacks a cannelure?

3. I'd love to seat and crimp as seperate steps in order to crimpt a bit tighter, but the "TC" crimping die included with the set is inappropriate to use, given my choice of bullet, right?

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Bailey Boat
September 9, 2009, 08:20 AM
You could use the taper crimp die to seat the bullet and buy a roll crimp die to do the crimps...... Since I don't own a 500 I can't speak to the slip issue....

Walkalong
September 9, 2009, 08:55 AM
but the "TC" crimping die included with the set is inappropriate to use, given my choice of bullet, right? A taper crimp will work with jacketed bullets, but, as you surmised, to get a heavy taper crimp on them you will need to seat and crimp in separate steps.

I don't know why Hornady includes a taper crimp die in .500 S&W, but they must have a reason. Call them and ask. I would be curious as to the answer myself.

Grumulkin
September 9, 2009, 09:12 PM
I feel your pain. I had the same problem loading for revolvers in 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum. In my opinion, bullet slip for cartridges to be shot in a revolver is not acceptable.

The only new brass I resize prior to loading is 460 S&W brass to be shot in a revolver in order to get the neck tension adequate. Then they're crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I doubt very much that you'll be able to apply an adequate crimp with your bullet seating die.

If Lee doesn't make a 500 S&W Factory Crimp Die, they'll probably custom make you one; at least they made a 460 S&W Factory Crimp Die for me.

Beelzy
September 10, 2009, 04:57 PM
Bullet slip is not good at all, period.

I use RCBS dies and have no issues with my crimping, maybe try the taper crimp die
Hornady included in your set.

I'll bet that cures your problem.

ohioshooter
September 10, 2009, 09:27 PM
I use the Lee Dies for my 500 and it didn't buy the crimp die for it and didn't have a problem shooting any of my reloads and I didn't experience any bullet slip. My OAL varies as I set my ranges between 1.953-1.985. I didn't crono any of the reloads and I used Hornady 350 gr XTP with 40 gr of Lil Gun. I could tell there was some pressure buildup of the 1.953 (min OAL in books are 1.985 but some factory loads I have were 1.950 so I wanted to see the difference) The 1.953 felt like 440 gr Cor-bons when shot. The 1.985 shot just fine.

nofishbob
September 10, 2009, 09:33 PM
Are you sure that the fourth die is a Taper Crimp, not a Roll Crimp?

I ask this because I have a Hornady 4 die set for 475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger that includes a roll crimp die as the fourth die.

Your description of crimping into a cannelure sure sounds like a roll crimp rather than a taper crimp.

As others have said, if the case neck tension is insufficient to hold the bullet, no amount of roll crimp will hold the bullet in place.

FWIW, for my light target loads of 475 Linebaugh, I have found that roll crimping is not required...case neck tension is sufficient and I expect improved case life.

Hope this helps!

Bob

Iron Sight
September 12, 2009, 09:02 AM
Is this the die kit you ordred?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=438844

"The fourth die is a separate roll crimp die and is intended for a deep crimp which may be required with heavy cast bullet loads"

IMtheNRA
September 13, 2009, 03:30 PM
Yes, that is the die set I have, Hornady 546585.

While Midway's description says that the fourth die is a roll cripm die, mine is labeled "500S&W T.C.", which I think means "Taper Crimp" because my 9mm and .45 taper crimp dies are also stamped "T.C."

I looked at Hornady's site, and they don't mention what type of crimp the fourth die provides.

I'll call Hornady in the morning to get the scoop and I'll post the results here.

nofishbob
September 14, 2009, 03:48 PM
Hi IMtheNRA-

I would be interested in what Hornady tells you, too.

I just looked at the die I have been using from a Hornady 4 die set for 475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger that I thought was a roll crimp die, and it is marked "TC".:confused:

I thought the correct crimp die for these heavy revolvers was a roll crimp......

Bob

rcmodel
September 14, 2009, 04:02 PM
Not sure what a Hornady TC die does, but there is an in-between crimp die such as the Dillon Accu-crimp and Redding Profile crimp.

They apply, for lack of a better word, more of a very short taper crimp that bends the case mouth in then a real roll crimp.

Maybe it's something like that.

rc

Walkalong
September 14, 2009, 05:51 PM
Redding Profile Die crimp on .357 Mag

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=104461&d=1251676353

RCBS Roll Crimp on .44 Mag

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=104542&d=1251758456

I used a Redding Profile Crimp Die for the .357 crimp, and an RCBS seater (Bullet pre-seated with another die) for the .44 Mag crimp. Those are my two favorite crimp dies.

The Redding die has a taper built in before the ledge for the roll crimp, while the RCBS does not.

These pics should show the difference rcmodel posted about. If you look close you can see the difference in the sharpness of the angles and the length difference in the crimps.

Some of how a crimp turns out is determined by the crimp groove on the bullet as well.

rcmodel
September 14, 2009, 05:57 PM
Great pics Walkalong!

A picture is worth 1,000 words alright!

Be interesting to see if the Hornady TC die compares to the Redding Profile Crimp.

rc

Walkalong
September 14, 2009, 06:01 PM
Someone who has one should be able to look in it and tell us. The RCBS has a ledge inside that rolls the brass. The die body is straight all the way to the ledge. The Redding has a short taper & then a ledge to roll the brass. The die is straight until right before the ledge where it tapers to it.

Strongbad
September 14, 2009, 11:45 PM
I believe that I could go without a crimp in my 500 S&W and not have an issue. Neck tension is THAT good. I always do crimp them, but still. This is with Starline brass and RCBS dies. After I resize (only about the first 1/2-3/4 of the case) those babies are TIGHT. Mic the plug on your mouth flaring die and make sure that it's not opening the case up when you go to put the flare on the case mouths. That's the only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered. Good luck. :)

kestak
September 15, 2009, 07:57 AM
Greetings,

Neck tension is not enough with 500 S&W with my experience. Even with the 700 grains from Ricks where you have almost 3/4 inch inside the case, the bullet pull out when shot with 26 grains of H110 with no or a light crimp. I have to perform a strong crimp.

Look how much goes in:
http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/kestak/P1040168.jpg

If you wonder how much goes in, here is a picture with bullets. The second from right is a 350gr 500 S&W and the third from right is a 230gr 45ACP. It is like I put a whole 350gr 500 S&W inside and it still walks out when there is no crimp.
http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/kestak/P1040167.jpg

Here you see a little bit the crimp:
http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/kestak/P1040171.jpg

Thank you

nofishbob
September 15, 2009, 01:22 PM
Here are some pictures of my Hornady die marked "475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger TC"

105439

105440

105441

Hopefully you can see what the inside of this die looks like and tell if it isin fact a taper crimp die or some form of a roll crimp.

Bob

nofishbob
September 16, 2009, 10:27 PM
Any ideas, guys?

Bob

Walkalong
September 16, 2009, 10:32 PM
Hard to see the depth of the crimp ledge, but it looks like a roll crimp. Tough to get a good pic down inside a die.

nofishbob
September 17, 2009, 08:40 PM
Thanks, Walkalong!

Bob

IMtheNRA
September 22, 2009, 12:44 PM
Well, I got a response from Hornady.

The "fourth die" in Hornady's 500 S&W die set really is a taper crimp die. Their email indicated that the seating die provides a roll crimp, and the taper crimp die is intended to "drive the roll crimp in even further".

I'll run the loaded rounds through the TC die now and I'll see if this resolves the bullet slip issue.

Beelzy
September 22, 2009, 01:55 PM
Man, I'm glad I got the Old School Dies that do both. I thought the crimp was determined
by how far in you screw the die?? Taper then turn the die in a turn for Roll.....when did
this stop happening??

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