[9mm+]

I was looking through the Mossberg 2009 Buyer's Guide last night and stopped on the 500 Road Blocker. I was really entranced by it and was thinking that this would be a great SD/HD firearm (for those that haven't seen the Road Blocker, there's a photo of it below). Fortunately, though, common sense started to prevail and I banished any thoughts of this as a SD/HD firearm. A muzzle brake? INDOORS?? My house has several narrow corridors leading to bedrooms, so engaging a BG with a weapon of this design would blast out my eardrums for good.

I then started to think about the most likely scenario for HD: inside the house and at night. Considering the blast noise from most large caliber firearms, I thought perhaps I should have my hearing protectors in the nightstand next to the pistols. In a real emergency, you're going to be calling out commands to family members, on the phone with 911, talking to police afterwards, etc., so protecting your hearing is important. But, would I REALLY want to put on hearing protection if a BG was suspected of breaking in? The answer is no. Hearing is one of the most important senses in these situations and you do not want to impair it while trying to assess the situation at hand.

Until recently, I hadn't given much thought as to the effect of a large caliber blast inside the house. It's one thing to fire a 44 mag on the range while wearing nice hearing and eye protection, but it's an entirely different matter blasting one inside your house in the dead of night. Flash blindness and concussive stun could be significant and make you very vulnerable.

Sitting next to my XD40 by the nightstand is a S&W Model 10, which I have now designated as my primary "night/inside gun". I have switched out any 38 Spl +P rounds for Hydra-Shok 110 gr with reduced flash. If I had to use it inside, it is still going to hurt and blind, but not nearly as much as my Remy 870 or large caliber pistol.

Anyway, food for thought...my $.02 doesn't buy much brain food nowadays... ;)

[gunnutery]

Yes, I had just seen the road blocker yesterday on their web site. I thought it was quite rediculous. Aren't muzzle breaks most effective for follow up shots? In this case (pump shotgun with pistol grip) it's completely useless! I think it was Mossberg or Savage that had done the same thing on a small bore rifle. We came to the conclusion that they were aiming for the "mall ninja" market.

[natman]

Good shotgun, silly model. Get one without the ridiculous muzzle break and a real stock instead of the pistol grip.

Take a look at these:

http://www.amazon.com/Peltor-97044-Tactical-Hearing-Protector/dp/B00009363P

[cmfireman]

While the muzzle brake is good for reducing recoil, it's going to make things a LOT louder and the flash a lot brighter.

Give me my 870 Express.

[rbernie]

While a muzzle brake does help with follow up shots, it's main purpose is to redistribute the gasses so the weapon doesn't recoil as much.
If you've ever been standing around a long gun with a muzzle brake on it, you'd grok the OP. They make the weapon insanely, incredibly louder. It's PAINFUL to be around, even with hearing protection.

As with the OP, choosing a long gun that is muzzle heavy and defeaningly loud to no good end makes little sense to me, too. If recoil for the SO is an issue, I'd much rather get a 20" 20ga than a 18.5" muzzle-braked 12ga... I'd certainly NEVER get a shotgun without a full buttstock for anyone that is recoil shy..

[DoubleTapDrew]

That looks like McCarthy's worst nightmare, complete with that shoulder thing that goes up! I sure Barrett will call and ask for their muzzle brakes back.

[Fred Fuller]

Push come to shove, I'll risk losing a few cochlear cilia in order to have a .730 instead of a .38 for HD, thanks. I can do without muzzle brakes, ports and any other muzzle attachments though. Good technique arising from training and practice takes care of fast followup shots if needed...

lpl

[MCgunner]

Well, I sleep with earplugs. The wife snores loud enough to damage my cilia. :rolleyes: I don't like porting, normally, either, though. But, with the earplugs already in, I could use my .357 magnum in the house without hearing damage. The muzzle flash might be rather blinding, though.

[kdstrick]

That muzzle break is silly. I think it is just a marketing tool to make it appeal to someone who wants a really, really tough looking gun.

Still, I don't understand the worry about muzzle flash. Are you really ever going to be shooting in darkness with fully expanded pupils? If so, how can you identify your target?

The point is, if you have illuminated your target (flashlight, weaponlight, or light switch) then your pupils have already adjusted to the light and narrowed. The muzzle flash will not significantly change that fact and put you in any disadvantage (unless you are using 221 fireball for your SD firearm ;)). I think the low-flash thing is marketing. It is simply by-product of faster burning powder. The reason for faster burning powders is to increase velocity in short barreled firearms. :)

[LeonCarr]

That looks exactly like the muzzle brake used on the Barrett .50s.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[AcceptableUserName]

or save your money, hop on gunbroker and find something like one of these beauties: (this is probably someone from here's collection, whoever it is...I'm jealous) also note the glaring absence of "muzzle brakes"....http://www.suckasstheatre.com/newgunpics/shotguncollection.jpg

[9mm+]

Still, I don't understand the worry about muzzle flash. Are you really ever going to be shooting in darkness with fully expanded pupils? If so, how can you identify your target?

Quite possibly, yes. Consider the scenario with a BG at your bedroom door and you're half asleep (my kids do this to my wife and me on occasion and (1) it's startling, and (2) your pupils are very dilated). Also, consider the scenario where you're sweeping the house after hearing a disturbance. You may have a flashlight with you, but you wouldn't necessarily have it on; otherwise, you may become the target. Flash blindness could be an issue for that all-important second shot.

[zhyla]

Wearing ear protection while there may be a bad guy around sounds like a bad idea to me. You need to be able to hear him. I've never shot a shotgun indoors w/o protection but I did let off an SKS in our living room when I was a teen (long story, but thank God it was pointed in a safe direction) and we were all surprised how little noise it made.

I hadn't thought about this muzzle flash thing but it seems to me the most important thing is to land that first shot. And I can't envision a case where I would take that shot without the target being lit well enough to recognize friend or foe.

[Cosmoline]

You may have a flashlight with you, but you wouldn't necessarily have it on; otherwise, you may become the target.

No. You have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to be sure of your target. You're not a soldier clearing a house in Iraq. You MUST know your target before you fire. So you need to have enough light in your house to ID the target or a tactical light. This trumps theoretical tactical considerations. Besides, for all the talk about giving positions away nobody has ever cited a case where home invaders were fast enough and clever enough to shoot a home owner by looking at his light (or his muzzle flash). Put a tactical light on a long gun and you'll have enormous advantages. You can see him with perfect clarity. All he sees is a blinding light. If he's armed, you shoot him immediately. If he's not armed, you hold him and phone the police.

[9mm+]

I don't understand your point. Not having a flashlight on doesn't mean I cannot ID the intruder. My eyes see just fine in the dark, especially with enough ambient light emitted. Under NC's Castle Doctrine statute, I don't need to hold him for any reason per the guidelines below:

Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

Of course, I am only addressing this as a resident of North Carolina. Your state (and others') may have entirely different statutes.

[Cosmoline]

My eyes see just fine in the dark,

If you can see well enough to ID your target, you should be fine. Personally I can't see in the dark very well. Can you see your sights?

nder NC's Castle Doctrine statute, I don't need to hold him for any reason per the guidelines below

If your plan is to start blasting at an unidentified person in your house under the Castle doctrine, you'd better be absolutely sure it's not some relative or friend. Beyond identification, there's also the little issue of BEING ABLE TO AIM in the dark. Have you ever actually shot something in the middle of the night? It's not as easy as I expected it to be. The tactical light helps enormously.

[Youngster]

I keep a set of electronic earmuffs next to my bed, which do an excellent job of taking care of the hearing situation. I would also be tempted to grab one of my long barrelled shotguns over the shorter stuff in my particular scenario because of they make for a huge reduction in blast/flash.

[9mm+]

If your plan is to start blasting at an unidentified person in your house under the Castle doctrine, you'd better be absolutely sure it's not some relative or friend. Beyond identification, there's also the little issue of BEING ABLE TO AIM in the dark. Have you ever actually shot something in the middle of the night? It's not as easy as I expected it to be. The tactical light helps enormously.

Very true. It's not very easy to do. I have epoxied Lum-Tec solution on my sights for good visibility at night (kudos to the THR who recommended that) and I have done live-fire exercises at night (both in military and civilian). I do have a flashlight mounted on my 870 and XD40 just in case I need it; if I cannot ID in the dark, a quick flip of the switch should do the trick.

Good comments, thanks. I appreciate the feedback, Cosmoline (and, incidentally, where exactly is the "Raggedy Edge of the Verse"? :) ).

[oneounceload]

BINGO to the electronic hearing muffs. IF you're that worried about BG's inside, then those would be a wise investment. Allows you to hear soft sounds while protecting your ears from permanent damage from muzzle blasts

[9mm+]

Good call on the electronic hearing muffs! They're pricey, for sure, but a wise investment for the range and HD.

[oneounceload]

A LOT cheaper than hearing aids down the road

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline (and, incidentally, where exactly is the "Raggedy Edge of the Verse"? ).

Anchorage AK

[9MMare]

No. You have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to be sure of your target. You're not a soldier clearing a house in Iraq. You MUST know your target before you fire. So you need to have enough light in your house to ID the target or a tactical light. This trumps theoretical tactical considerations. .

Is this true? In all states?

I live alone. *No one* should be entering my house at nite without permission. My plan is to yell for the intruder to identify themselves (if they enter at nite). If they dont, I dont feel that I have any further obligation to identify them myself. I have told the people who might need to know, like neighbors, that they need to ID themselves if they come for assistance in the night (and they arent likely to break in).

What is the law here?

[Cosmoline]

If your state has a very strong Texas style castle doctrine you may be able to assume the intruder is out to do you harm, but to fire blindly at a shape you think and hope is such an intruder is very risky and that sort of thing has ended in tragedy before. There are also ethical obligations beyond the law, and the very real problem of how to aim at a dark shadow amongst dark shadows, when you cannot even see your own sights. Now if you have lots of nightlights and such you may already have the situation resolved.

Personally when I'm awoken at 3AM I'm not at my best and I'll be lucky to find my own glasses. I need all the help I can get, which means a long gun with a tactical light.

[kdstrick]

Quite possibly, yes. Consider the scenario with a BG at your bedroom door and you're half asleep (my kids do this to my wife and me on occasion and (1) it's startling, and (2) your pupils are very dilated).

You have just made my point. :) How do you know it is a BG? Firing before identifying your target is absolutely incorrect and could be incredibly tragic. Would you really fire without being absolutely positive that your target was indeed an intruder? I don't think anyone would advocate that course of action. If you can do so without using a light, then you must have an amazing amount of ambient light in your home at night. :scrutiny: Most of us sleep in the dark.

A flash of your weapon mounted light to identify your target is the necessary and responsible way to proceed. Muzzle flash should be the least of your concerns at that point, and is irrelevant.

I, for one, am not going to take the time to put on hearing protection either. Just how much time do you think you will have? Why not go ahead and put on body armor and a football helmet while you are at it (don't forget the chin strap):p. I'm sure the bad guy will wait for you. Just call a 'time-out'.

[owlhoot]

Guys, I keep a small nightlight (christmas tree bulb) on in every room of the house except my bedroom. This is plenty of light for situation assessment or target ID. This also solves the muzzle flash problem. An even better solution would be to install a light unit that comes on automatically when someone enters a room. Just having the light suddenly come on would probably be enough to make the average bad guy beat a hasty retreat.

[Youngster]

Guys, I keep a small nightlight (christmas tree bulb) on in every room of the house except my bedroom. This is plenty of light for situation assessment or target ID. This also solves the muzzle flash problem. An even better solution would be to install a light unit that comes on automatically when someone enters a room. Just having the light suddenly come on would probably be enough to make the average bad guy beat a hasty retreat.

That's good as long as you have electricity...

[mljdeckard]

If I'm trying to protect my ears, a .38 revolver is probably the bottom of the list. Revolvers are horribly loud. The only guns I have that are actually quieter than my 870 would be .22s.

But yes, that.....Barrettesque brake on the end of that 500 will do who-knows-what to the volume.

[chevyforlife21]

if u have a deadly intruder in ur house u mean to tell me ur gonna take the time to put on ear plugs? no way who cares if there ears ring for a little while

[cleardiddion]

That thing looks like all kinds of silly, not gonna lie

[halfacop]

If I'm trying to protect my ears, a .38 revolver is probably the bottom of the list. Revolvers are horribly loud. The only guns I have that are actually quieter than my 870 would be .22s.


if u have a deadly intruder in ur house u mean to tell me ur gonna take the time to put on ear plugs? no way who cares if there ears ring for a little while

People - in such a situation, your body under goes changes to help you deal with the stress of the situation. Hormones are released and your body adapts....

Your eyes dilate to allow you to see with better detail, your Heart rate shoots up to supply blood to your extremeties because your dexterity is diminished.....

You will barely even hear that gun go off when you discharge it towards a intruder! You will not even notice the recoil.

Its the same thing hunters experience when they are out in the woods after that trophy! Ask any hunter and they will tell you that they don't even barely remember pulling the trigger and their ears are not ringing afterwords....

Its all that Transmarginal Inhibition stuff!

The last thing you really need to worry about is your hearing during a encounter such as this. Muzzle flash is a issue you may want to deal with but your hearing will not be a problem........

[RatDrall]

As far as that Mossy....One hole, in the front of the end of the barrel, should be enough. Shotguns are great with stocks, next to worthless without one.

The decibal level is similar from centerfire handgun to shotgun to rifle. All will cause hearing damage if too much shooting is done without protection.

If you are killing a man in your house you have more to worry about than slight hearing loss.

[Youngster]

I think it all basically starts with getting your physical security measures right. I've ensured that at the very least noone can break into my place without being noisy and obvious about it, and unless they are breaching professionals aren't going to manage to do it quickly enough to get to me before I can get ready and dial 9-11.

[9mm+]

You have just made my point. How do you know it is a BG? Firing before identifying your target is absolutely incorrect and could be incredibly tragic. Would you really fire without being absolutely positive that your target was indeed an intruder? I don't think anyone would advocate that course of action. If you can do so without using a light, then you must have an amazing amount of ambient light in your home at night. Most of us sleep in the dark.

A flash of your weapon mounted light to identify your target is the necessary and responsible way to proceed. Muzzle flash should be the least of your concerns at that pointand is irrelevant

As I said before, I would never fire without ID'ing the target, but I can do it in the dark with little ambient light (especially with the pupils dilated). If I cannot ID the target, I will turn on the flashlight on my 870 or XD40. No ID, no shot.

I don't consider muzzle flash irrelevant. I always practice double taps and would not count on one shot to stop an attack. If you cannot see your second shot, you may end up shooting someone you shouldn't.

[leadcounsel]

$50 Peltor electronic earmuffs on top of your weapon and ready to go. Problem solved.

[9mm+]

The last thing you really need to worry about is your hearing during a encounter such as this. Muzzle flash is a issue you may want to deal with but your hearing will not be a problem........

The concussive stun of a muzzle-brake 12 gauge fired in an enclosed corridor would be significant. The sound and pressure energy are directed to the shooter, not the target. It's beyond ouch; it's debilitating.

[mljdeckard]

Halfacop, you might not care if you can still hear when you are 60. I do. I may or not have the chance to don hearing protection when it actually happens. But if I can. it won't be a bad idea. I've already lost enough hearing from shooting tanks, .50 cals, and rock concerts. I can absolutely guarantee that you will have a degree of permanent hearing damage. I won't die to protect my hearing, but that doesn't mean it's stupid to do what you can.

In my case all of my choices for HD are at the lower end of the scale for hearing damage. It's not why I chose them, but it's certainly a bonus.

[chute2thrill]

IMHO someone who has the capacity to put hearing protection on while someone is invading their house must have liquid nitrogen in their veins... No to the muzzle brake, definate yes to a light mounted to your HD weapon...

[zhyla]

I can absolutely guarantee that you will have a degree of permanent hearing damage.

A couple unprotected shotgun blasts are not going to affect your hearing. Prolonged exposure is what you need to avoid. The rock concerts are probably the worst thing - 3 hours at 150 dB is not a good idea. Ear protection is absolutely required for prolonged shooting but a few shots in the wee hours won't hurt you long term.

[mljdeckard]

They are LESS LIKELY to affect your hearing. Far from guaranteed. But a heavy revolver is a LOT louder, it's a lot of pressure, exiting the muzzle and the forcing cone, a lot closer to your ears.

If you have any ringing that lasts more than the next day, you have permanent hearing damage.

[kdstrick]

Do police officers utilize hearing protection prior to the defensive use of their firearm? :confused:

Of course not. Might it cost them a very slight degree of hearing loss?

Sure. I guess they would rather be alive than be able to hear perfectly. :scrutiny: Go figure. :)

[Youngster]

Do police officers utilize hearing protection prior to the defensive use of their firearm?

Of course not. Might it cost them a very slight degree of hearing loss?

Sure. I guess they would rather be alive than be able to hear perfectly. Go figure.

I hear SWAT guys do, at least when venturing indoors. Shooting in confined spaces is just a totally different animal. Peltors and other electronic hearing protectors can boost your hearing as well as protect it so there's no real downside to using them.

[9MMare]

If your state has a very strong Texas style castle doctrine you may be able to assume the intruder is out to do you harm, but to fire blindly at a shape you think and hope is such an intruder is very risky and that sort of thing has ended in tragedy before. There are also ethical obligations beyond the law, and the very real problem of how to aim at a dark shadow amongst dark shadows, when you cannot even see your own sights. Now if you have lots of nightlights and such you may already have the situation resolved.

Personally when I'm awoken at 3AM I'm not at my best and I'll be lucky to find my own glasses. I need all the help I can get, which means a long gun with a tactical light.

There should be NO other human in my home that I dont know about, and what is the reason that they entered illegally? (Broke in).

I'm not shooting at shadows, I'd be shooting at a person who *I believe I'd have to assume meant me harm*. No?


And yes, I am not at my best when woken suddenly either. Not to mention that I have already experienced the adreneline rushes of bad situations and know that that will be a major factor in my reactions as well.

That is why my plans for home defense need to be as solid and clear cut as is possible in 'unplanned' situations. That's why I'm looking for information here.

[Youngster]

I'd be most concerned about baddies surreptitiously breaking in when you're not home and then lying in wait for you to walk in, some home invaders prefer to operate this way. The best in shotgun software and hardware probably isn't going to help you much at that point.

[mljdeckard]

Something else to consider. The VA is dropping hearing damage coverage. You are responsible for your hearing, period. You are issued hearing protection, if you don't use it, it's your own fault.

[9MMare]

I'd be most concerned about baddies surreptitiously breaking in when you're not home and then lying in wait for you to walk in, some home invaders prefer to operate this way. The best in shotgun software and hardware probably isn't going to help you much at that point.

Hopefully, I'd notice that my dogs were outside, or didnt meet me at the door, or were dead :-(

And if many of you carry, you'd probably have something on you if you had a little warning.

[jakemccoy]

I've read about quite a few home invasions. I can't imagine putting on some high-tech electronic ear muffs right in the middle of one. I would like to know if anybody here has ever known someone to put on hearing protection in the midst of a real home invasion. By "real", I mean a home invasion with an actual intruder who was intent on causing harm, not a bump in the night that turned out to be the neighbor's kid playing a prank or something like that. I'm not saying that putting on muffs has never been done before or that it can't happen. I'm saying that my skeptical old mind just can't imagine it.

I had a false home invasion one time. Let me tell you. My heart rate went from about 60 bpm to about 200 bpm in about three seconds. It's a strange feeling unlike any other. It's sort of like coming up on an unexpected cliff when snowboarding. In other words, it feels like "hey, this might be the end of it all right now". I would not have wanted to put on electronic ear muffs during my false home invasion, even if I could have. For one thing, I had 911 on the phone and not on speaker phone. That issue is a distant second to the fact that I just would not want electronic earmuffs on my ears while my life is flashing before my eyes.

[AcceptableUserName]

lol @ putting on hearing protection in a home defense scenario



just lol

[Youngster]

It takes me a whole instant to put on the earmuffs, and while that might be a long time if your setup is such that anyone could just barge in and be on top of you in an eyeblink, it's not going to hurt me any time wise.

[zhyla]

lol @ putting on hearing protection in a home defense scenario



just lol

That's basically my attitude here too. Hearing damage is just a non-issue for a once in a lifetime (well, hopefully zero) shoot.

[Youngster]

It's not even so much the hearing damage but that you spare yourself the worst of the immediate effects of firing in an enclosed space, something that makes me groggy even with hearing protection, and also you're able to hear so much better than you normally would when using electronic earmuffs.

[AcceptableUserName]

If you can do it, by all means do it. I just could not see myself doing it in the middle of the night. It'd be louder than hell but I doubt a normal barrelled shotgun would deafen someone. The "raod blocker" nonsense possibly or a ported barrel. If I had the time to throw on earpro and it even occurred to me in a situation like that I'd do it. But that p[oint and click would probably be all I could process at such a time.

[halfacop]

Halfacop, you might not care if you can still hear when you are 60. I do. I may or not have the chance to don hearing protection when it actually happens. But if I can. it won't be a bad idea. I've already lost enough hearing from shooting tanks, .50 cals, and rock concerts. I can absolutely guarantee that you will have a degree of permanent hearing damage. I won't die to protect my hearing, but that doesn't mean it's stupid to do what you can.


I never said I didn't care nor that it was stupid....

We are talking about defensive shooting inside a home during a break in or somewhat similier situation. I am simply saying that on average the one or two shots that are fired during such a situation are not going to affect your hearing enough to matter!

Unless you plan on engaging in multipule home invasions in the near future.....:scrutiny:

I am simply saying that for the "once in a lifetime" situation (for most of us) this is something that I just wouldn't really worry about......

I hear SWAT guys do, at least when venturing indoors.

Yes - they generally use ear pro during their entering a building. Of course its smart practice in this case. They also have had time to prepare, set up and get ready for their "fight". It makes complete sense to do this.

Cops (road patrol) as a whole do not do this on common "door open" calls or breaking and enterings.

As I said above - we are talking about a surpise visitor in the middle of the night. The last thing I am going to be worried about is trying to slap on some ear pro........

[Youngster]

As I said above - we are talking about a surpise visitor in the middle of the night. The last thing I am going to be worried about is trying to slap on some ear pro........

Why should the "visitor" be a complete surprise? My place isn't exactly Cheyenne Mountain but I know by the time someone was able to get through my hardened doors or shatterproof windows I'd be well aware of their presense and would have the time needed to react. If your place is such where a swift kick, a bump key or smashing some glass is enough to gain entry then you may well not have time to access a gun let alone do anything else.

[zhyla]

Why should the "visitor" be a complete surprise? ... If your place is such where a swift kick, a bump key or smashing some glass is enough to gain entry then you may well not have time to access a gun let alone do anything else.

All the hardening in the world doesn't help when you don't use it. I've woken up to find an unlocked front door a couple times in my adult life. Most cases not directly my fault, but it doesn't matter, humans forget things.