[mp510]

I believe that I may have mentioned this Tech Branch letter in previous posts on this (and other forums). However, I wanted to make the full text publicly available for the sake of clarity and knowledge. Additionally, the concept that a concept that a muzzle loading "disguised firearm" is an AOW is something that needs to be kept in consideration. This is especially relevant because it is conceivable that people could buy and complete certain other commercially available kits, which if completed without first obtaining a Form 1 could result in a black-powder hobbyist building a string of federal offenses (tax evasion, unregistered NFA, failure to identify maker of firearm, violation of the serial number requirement, etc....) in the process.

[Ginormous]

Generally speaking, asking for personal clarification by (insert governmental alphabet soup bureaucracy here) of obscure, vague, or ambiguous rules, regulations, or laws that may possibly establish new precedent or policy or result in changes to existing precedent of policy, without benefit of competent counsel, is frowned upon. These questions are best forwarded to competent organizations or individuals, with appropriate qualifications, background, and resources to determine if further comment is required or even prudent of said alphabet soup governmental agency. While novel, cool, and comes with some serious bragging rights, your well intentioned query can potentially affect your rights, as well as those of millions of others.

This one was relatively innocuous and no harm appears to have been done. but it's something to keep in mind.

One of many good ideas drummed into you during ground school while pursuing FAA certification for a private pilot's SEL license and very applicable to just about any governmental agency.

[Mike OTDP]

No, Ginormous, this was NOT innocuous. There have been some percussion cane guns made...and they are now in a legal grey area, if I read this correctly.

[mp510]

When I contacted FTB, I expected the response that I received. There is a history of the FTB considering "disguised" blackpowder firearms to be firearms as defined in the NFA. There was one item that happened to about 2 years before I wrote my correspondance to FTB. However, that firearm (while a muzzle loader) used electronic ignition system rather than standard percussion caps. Too many gun people take a Homer Simpson approach when they consider these sorts of situations. "If I don't see it, it's not illegal" does not apply with NFA Firearms. The standard with NFA Firearms is "Knowingly Posess." "Knowingly posess" almost without exception has been determined by appellate courts to mean that the individual knew that they posessed the offending item. It does not matter if the individual was aware or not that the law existed. It does not matter whether the individual was aware that the item in question was regulated under the law. And, with these sort of implements, it would be moot to even attempt a claim of "I didn't know the item had charicteristics which caused it to meet the NFA definition of a firearm"- because that is either A. Going to be something straightforward (like the situation with the Companion and Wallet Holster) or B. The entire issue of any trial or forfeiture proceeding. This letter does not change the status of anyones firearm. It simply makes things a little more clear.

[Coyote3855]

IIRC, this issue surfaced years ago when High Standard was making a two-shot derringer in .22 Magnum. I don't remember if the wallet holster was available through High Standard or another vendor, but the derringer in the wallet holster was determined to be an AOW. I didn't know the regulation would apply to muzzle loading firearms, but it makes sense (in the world of bureaucrats) that it would.

[Ginormous]

Mike, I fail to get "cane gun" from "revolver" in any opinion rendered by Mr. Spencer in that letter. Everything else quoted by him is already codified and well understood.

[mp510]

Mike, I fail to get "cane gun" from "revolver" in any opinion rendered by Mr. Spencer in that letter. Everything else quoted by him is already codified and well understood.
Both cane guns and operational wallet holsters with a firearm are AOWs, because they are firearms disguised as something else. He is attempting to extrapolate Mr. Spencer's logic using the specific wording that he used in the last paragraph that says "it is no longer a muzzle loading pistol or replica of a weapon manufactured in or before 1898." (And expels a shot by explosive force, as opposed to say, CO2 for example).

Extrapolating the logic of FTB letters can be tricky. Sometimes it works, other times- not so much.

[BHP FAN]

For instance I have one. I don't have a wallet holster,but do have an IWB holster,which I'm guessing would be the same deal?

[mp510]

For instance I have one. I don't have a wallet holster,but do have an IWB holster,which I'm guessing would be the same deal?
Big difference. This is a (stock photo) of the wallet holster in question:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/imagehosting/thum_227145f2046313365.jpg
It makes the NAA Revolver become an AOW (Disguised Firearm). As you can see, much different from a conventional holster (which would not make it an AOW).

[Ginormous]

It took me a moment to visualize how that would disguise the NAA Companion. Once I figured out exactly how this accessory worked, it became immediately apparent why an NAA Companion carried in this could be classified as an AOW. Particularly the LR version with the very short barrel. The weapon can be fired without removing it from the holster, and only the hammer, part of the cylinder, and part of the trigger are somewhat visible. The remainder of the weapon is fully obscured, but likely remains quite easily fired.

[arcticap]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=105113&stc=1&d=1252606962

Here's a fuzzy picture from an Auction Arms listing that shows the "disguised" NAA pistol in the "operational wallet holster".
It basically means that if wanting to use this holster the pistol would first need to be registered
as a Class III firearm to be legal in most states except those that don't allow disguised firearms.

[Ginormous]

That's how I envisioned it, arcticap. Pretty ingenious design actually.

But you're right, this design is already covered under many existing state laws, as well as federal laws. It's a non-issue really. But someone has some mildly interesting correspondence to frame for their gun room. :)

[Das Jaeger]

Now that's funny ! :D

It isn't even disguised anyways , that term is so loosley oriented for stupid laws , its a holster man , simple as that . Its the gun grabbers BS , simple stuff here . I bet my attorney could argue it is a holster and win though, because it is , nieve or not . Class 3, what a joke .



Jaeger

[JamesKelly]

Ignorant question.

Exactly what do the letters " A O W "
stand for???

[Ginormous]

(AOW) Any Other Weapon: Any National Firearms Act (NFA) firearm not otherwise categorized by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms as a short-barreled rifle, modern shoulder-stocked pistol, short-barreled shotgun, machine gun, sound suppressor (silencer), or destructive device. Included in the list of AOWs are firearms disguised so they are not readily recognizable as firearms, such as pen guns, cane guns, and wallet holsters that hide the outline of the firearm and allow it to be fired while holstered. Also included are pistols with both front and rear pistol grips, handguns with smooth bore barrels less than 18" in length and intended to fire shotgun shells; and combination rifle/shotguns with barrels over 12" but under 18", provided each chamber is single shot and only can be manually reloaded. The Federal Transfer tax on an AOW is $5.

[Das Jaeger]

becasue I hate this thread so much , but its ANY OTHER WEAPON=AOW , smashing keybord now . :D

Jaeger

[Ginormous]

Some threads are so bad, you can't help but be drawn in like a moth to a candle flame.

Vote it terrible and choose Thread Tools > Unsubscribe From This Thread Should give a measure of satisfaction. :)



http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=105114&stc=1&d=1252612224

[arcticap]

This thread is right up THR's RKBA black powder forum alley way and I appreciated learning something new which I had no idea what it was all about until today well after it was posted.
So I guess that folks can also feel free to choose to "unsubscribe" from being citizens of the good old USA if that makes them feel any better!
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that it has happened!
BTW MP510 is my oldest son! :neener:

[Ginormous]

Scroll down to the part that reads "Top authors on THR during last week":

http://boardreader.com/sp/THR_17631.html

I need another hobby. :D


(http://boardreader.com/sp/THR_17631.html)

[Das Jaeger]

Might as well be most active at something :D ?
I was wondering why you were so interested , now I know Arcticap .
Family , go figure . :D

Das Jaeger

[Das Jaeger]

While it may not be the most prestigeous ( maybe pathetic even ? :D ) honor to have the most posts in a week here on THR Forums in BP of course , but that fact that YOU actaully took time to look at that statistical analysis of this Forum to find that little tid-bit of trivia , truelly means we both may need another hobby :D
I had two weeks off , whats your excuse :D

Das Jaeger

[BHP FAN]

wow.I didn't even place...

[Das Jaeger]

oh my God , you looked too :D ....Kinda like this thread , it's unescapable , I am like a Rat on Crack , I keep comming back for more abuse even if I know I shoudln't . :eek:
I swear to you , you can have my Trophy if its any consolation ? :eek:
I may have lots of posts , but you have better content am sure in yours , you win . :D
Hey at least "WE" participate . 80,000 members , two dozen posters on a BP board , pretty pathetic really if you want stats . And yes , I had to look to see how many members there were :uhoh: :D Lotts of lookie loos with nothing to add huh ? Find that hard to fathom , but the Pirates must've cut there tounges out I guess . :(
I guess they must be afraid of someone getting to know them in the Cyberworld ? That's just odd . It aint like were In-line intolerant here like so many other boards . I dont get it .

Das Jaeger

[BHP FAN]

Well,I don't like them inlines much,but I try not to judge.I'm all about diversity and tolerance,dontcha know....

[Das Jaeger]

I generally can't stand the people that shoot In-lines , love the guns though ? Go figure :D
I guess I need to work on my Diversity and Tollerance that you have so mastered :D
By the way , all those Percussion Revolvers you owne , " ALL IN-LINES " :D

Cheers, Das Jaeger

[Cosmoline]

Another example of how completely absurd federal gun laws are. I'm going to be happy when the entire edifice crumbles under its incomprehensible debt load.