[Skunkabilly]

If I get a Class III license (or whatever it's called), will it trump the 1994 evil features ban, i.e. can I have post ban magazines and a collapsible stock for a year-2002 production AR15?

[Hkmp5sd]

You may acquire a license to manufacture firearms and then manufacture them for sale to the government or LEO agencies. You may acquire a license to manufacture or import "assault weapons" for testing or experimentation with approval by the ATF.

So, getting a license to deal in NFA weapons will not (generally) allow you to make or possess firearms banned by the '94 assualt weapon ban.

[Gewehr98]

About moving to a state that allows NFA weapons!

[El Tejon]

Skunk, if you want an SOT #, why not get a Class 2 instead?

Anywho, the answer to your question is, it depends.

[Robert inOregon]

Annual fee for a license vs. owning a pre ban or sample is not worth it.

BATF is also requiring that you have a secure store front and occupational license. And the $$$ keep in adding up! You also open yourself to other complications. Better off just purchasing a pre ban and registered firearm.

[Skunkabilly]

What's an SOT #?

OK in short, can I get an MP5K-PDW with folding stock, money not being an object? Heck if I can get a studio for half of what I'm paying for my one bedroom apt....

[Monkeyleg]

"OK in short, can I get an MP5K-PDW with folding stock, money not being an object?"

If money's no object, the Form 4 necessary to own the MP5 will cost you a one-time tax of $200. The gun itself will cost right around $10,000.

[Hkmp5sd]

What's an SOT #?

Special Occpational Tax. Just like paying the NFA transfer tax, you have to pay a tax to manufacture a NFA weapon. If you are a licensed manufacturer, you pay an occupational tax. For a Class II manufacturer (NFA weapons), that is $1000 per year.

[twoblink]

Skunk, tell me which state you settle in, and I'll follow...

Something with good CCW laws, and cheap ammo, and LOTS of gunshows!!

[Skunkabilly]

Do I have to keep renewing the tax to keep the gun?

And can I get a NEW MP5 or will it be pre-1994?

[Byron Quick]

Skunk,
No, you can't get a new gun. And it will be pre 1986 not 1994.

You're confusing the magazine/"assault weapon" ban with the machine gun ban.

[Hkmp5sd]

Skunk,

In 1986, the government banned the manufacture and sale of NEW machineguns to civilians. This is different from the 1994 Assault Weapon ban which deals only with semi-automatic firearms.

If you live in a state that allows machineguns, you may buy any pre'86 manufactured AND registered machinegun (excluding pre-86 dealer samples). When you buy this machinegun, you pay a one-time transfer tax of $200 to the government. On the paperwork you get to own the gun you will find a cancelled $200 stamp. If at some point you sell the gun, the guy buying it pays his $200 tranfer tax.

Another potential hangup in the process is called CLEO. On the paperwork to transfer a machinegun (or other NFA weapon) called ATF Form 4, you must get the signature of the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" with jurisdiction over your place of residence. All this means is that he does not know of anything about you that makes it illegal for you to own a machinegun. Unfortunately, the CLEO is not REQUIRED to sign your form. Some refuse to sign across the board and some sign only for friends. If he refuses to sign, ATF will not approve the transfer and you are SOL.

If you have this problem, you can get around it by creating a corporation and buying machineguns as investments for the corporation. This bypasses the CLEO autograph. The downside to this is that if you close the corporation, you must transfer all NFA weapons to either yourself on Form 4 (which still needs the CLEO autograph) or another legal person/dealer/corporation.

[Skunkabilly]

:banghead: I'm going to move to Finland or Norway, all the HKPRO members from there have full autos!!:cuss: :banghead: :fire:

[ctdonath]

Class III designations partially trump the '94 AW ban.

Machineguns are irrelevant, as only grandfathered pre-'86 MGs are allowed (comparable to pre-'94 AWs).
Nothing trumps the ban on standard AWs.

HOWEVER...

<* edit out possibly misguided SBR exemption *>

A pistol built with a permanent vertical foregrip (say, an AR-15 Pistol variant) falls in the Any Other Weapon (AOW) class, which may have any "pre-ban" features. Reason? a pistol is defined as having a single vertical grip; if two vertical grips, it is not a pistol and thus not covered by the AW ban.

Read The NFA FAQ (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt) now.

[ctdonath]

Class III "licenses" only exist for hardcore businesses, making or selling Class III items. They are hard to get (my dealer spent two straight days being interviewed, and only got it because he does work for the state police), cost >$1000/year, require a real storefront & active business, and are strongly discouraged by some states.

The Class III "transfer tax", on the other hand, is a one-time deal of $5 (for AOWs) or $200 (for everything else). Just go through the paperwork, find a Chief Law Enforcement Officer willing to sign it (many won't), pay the tax, and it's yours. The only catch is if you move or take it out of state you must notify the BATF prior (AOWs and suppressors excluded). No "license" required to own it, no repeat payments, just the one-time tax.

[TaxPhd]

ctdonath, you said:

"A rifle with a barrel less than 16" (say, a proper 14.5"-barreled M4gery) is a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR), which may have any "pre-ban" features. Reason? a rifle has a barrel >= 16"; if less, it is not a rifle and thus not covered by the AW ban."

Are you sure about this? It has been a while since I looked into this, but I was under the impression that a SBR would not allow pre-ban features. A MG, yes, but not SBR. If it is correct, then this is a much less expensive way to get pre-ban features. $200 transfer tax is less than the premium for a pre-ban rifle.

[Hkmp5sd]

A short barreled rifle does fall under the AW ban and may not have the evil features.

Per ATF's Frequently Asked Questions Page (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#o6)

QUESTION: If an NFA firearm has 2 or more of the features specified in the law for semiautomatic assault weapons, will the firearm be regulated under both statutes?

ANSWER: Any firearm that falls within the definition of "semiautomatic assault weapon" and the NFA definition of "firearm" is subject to both laws.

[ctdonath]

Grrr...maybe I'm wrong on that one.

Ultimately, don't do any of these until you write a letter to the BATF and get a positive response.

(Ignorance of the law may be no excuse, but what if someone makes an extraordinary effort to know the law and STILL doesn't know what it means?!? I understand this crap better than most people, and STILL don't get it.)

[Skunkabilly]

OK.

So can I get a 14" new M1 Super 90 or M4 Super 90 and still be legal?

[TaxPhd]

It will fall under the short barreled shotgun rules. Probably won't work in Kali.

[Hkmp5sd]

Skunk,

Is there some reason you want a *NEW* HK?
You can move to a state that allows machineguns and get buy a pre-'86:
http://www.twsguns.com/mp5k.jpg
http://www.gunsamerica.com/upload/976269212-1.jpg
http://www.gunsamerica.com/upload/976257633-1.jpg

[TheLastBoyScout]

<<drool>>
Nice collection mp5sd. they all yours?

some people have all the luck

[ctdonath]

And the price on that last puppy is...?

[Hkmp5sd]

Nice collection mp5sd. they all yours?

I wish. :) I have the same one as the middle picture without the scope.

They're all about $10k each.

[Monkeyleg]

Hkmp5sd, are you sure about the CLEO having discretion in signing form 4's? After our local sheriff stopped signing, a bunch of full-auto owners got together with an attorney who told them that the CLEO had to sign the form 4's. He also said that the sheriff could be sued in federal court and forced to sign the form, but could turn around and refuse the next applicant.

Just trying to get my facts straight.

And thanks for the drool all over my keyboard. ;)

[falconer]

I was under the impression that if you owned a registered drop-in auto sear on a form 4, it would trump the 94 ban. IE throwing the auto sear in a postban weapon makes it a MG and therefore the evil feature rule becomes moot. However, if the sear is removed the evil features must be removed too.

[TaxPhd]

falconer,

You are correct. MG status trumps the ban, SBR does not.

[ctdonath]

Fact is the CLEO signoff IS discretionary. A recent major lawsuit addressed this (attacked it from every conceivable angle) and failed. Feds cannot compel the CLEO to comply, yet the BATF can require the signature.

If some group DID successfully sue, the 1934 Group needs to hear about it.

[No4Mk1*]

What about "high capacity feeding devices" as it relates to macine gun belts? Can you obtain MG links and assemble a belt of 11 or more rounds?

[tyme]

This is making me sick just reading the rehash of pre/post 86/94 MG/AW FFL/NFA stuff.

Does anyone have friends in the Library of Congress who could, say, perhaps, "lose" the relevant statutes? Or is that even where they're kept?

[ctdonath]

What we need is for enough people to stand up and say "the 2nd Amendment means what it says" and live it.

Pity we can't find more than a handful out of 80,000,000.

[Skunkabilly]

I never even considered Fed laws until recently because it seems CA laws overlap. Now...it really is that bad, isn't it? :(

[Hkmp5sd]

What about "high capacity feeding devices" as it relates to macine gun belts? Can you obtain MG links and assemble a belt of 11 or more rounds?

That's a good question. Yes, if you possess pre-ban links, you can assemble belted ammo of more than 11 rounds. But how do you tell pre-ban from post-ban links?

According the the regulations:

(c) Large capacity ammunition feeding devices manufactured after September 13, 1994.

(1) Each person who manufactures or imports any large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured or imported after September 13, 1994, shall legibly identify each such device with a serial number. Such person may use the same serial number for all large capacity ammunition feeding devices produced or imported.

(i) Additionally, in the case of a domestically made large capacity ammunition feeding device, such device shall be marked with the name, city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) of the manufacturer;

(ii) And in the case of an imported large capacity ammunition feeding device, such device shall be marked:

(A) With the name of the manufacturer, country of origin, and,


(B) Effective July 1995, the name, city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) of the importer.

(iii) Further, large capacity ammunition feeding devices manufactured or imported after September 13, 1994, shall be marked "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/GOVERNMENT USE ONLY" or, in the case of devices manufactured for export, effective July 5, 1995, "FOR EXPORT ONLY."

(2) All markings required by this paragraph (c) shall be cast, stamped, or engraved on the exterior of the device. In the case of a magazine, the markings shall be placed on the magazine body.

(3) Exceptions.

(i) Metallic links. Persons who manufacture or import metallic links for use in the assembly of belted ammunition are only required to place the identification marks prescribed in paragraph (c)(1) of this section on the containers used for the packaging of the links.

So, when they make new links, they identify them as post-ban by marking the BOX in which they are packaged. If you happen to have a bunch of bright shiney brand new looking links but no box, they are by default considered pre-ban and thus legal for private ownership.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/complete.htm