Nitrated paper cartridges


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Thecrazedorganist
September 11, 2009, 03:01 AM
Hey guys, anybody ever tried making paper cartridges for their revolvers? Anybody used Kirst's guide?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1759

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arcticap
September 11, 2009, 03:25 AM
There's a sticky that contains a thread about making paper cartridges at the top of the BP shooting forum page. It's similar to a book about the subject except it's free. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094

BHP FAN
September 11, 2009, 03:48 AM
I make mine from Top or Bugler cigarette papers.

Ginormous
September 11, 2009, 08:47 AM
As do I. Only the finest rice papers for my babies!

Tip: a little dab of nitrocellulose lacquer on the ends keeps things nice and tight. Make your own NC lacquer by dissolving a single base smokeless powder in a small amount of acetone. IMR 4227 works for me.

http://thehighroad.org/[IMG]http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1046.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Ginormous_pics/DSCF1046.jpg

BTW, it takes a bit to get used the odd feeling that occurs when you walk into a "smoke" shop and buy cigarette papers. :D

Das Jaeger
September 11, 2009, 10:24 AM
would feel guilty about walking into a smoke shop to buy Cigarette papers , its called Paranoia :D , comes from smoking Dope , but I wouldn't know that , the cashier never asked me what I used them for :D.

Das Jaeger

Tdmoparguy
September 11, 2009, 03:53 PM
What do yall recommend using for a dowel to wrap the paper around?

Ginormous
September 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
I use a 7/16" brass tube. The final fit is fine in an .45 caliber cylinder.

Thecrazedorganist
September 12, 2009, 03:17 AM
Excellent. This is going to make hunting SO much more enjoyable. Now if I could just convince my wife to let me cast conicals right here in the apartment... (though I hear lead poisoning is pretty unfun) :p

Oyeboten
September 12, 2009, 03:34 AM
Excellent. This is going to make hunting SO much more enjoyable. Now if I could just convince my wife to let me cast conicals right here in the apartment... (though I hear lead poisoning is pretty unfun)


On the Kitchen Stove, just run the Vent Hood Fan...(Lol...well, might stink things up even still...)


I used to do it in front of a Fireplace...used the Fire to Melt the Lead in a Bean Can I'd crimped a little pouring 'beak' into...the fumes all went up the Chimney, and any Casting odors were pulled in by the Fire's Draw...very tidy...Cast the Bullets right there on the Hearth...very 'positive' ventilation.

Smokin_Gun
September 12, 2009, 04:28 AM
I make my own Nitrated paper using phonebook pages...in my kitchen under the vented hood :O)

KO3 Potassium Nitrate(99-100%) Oxidizer 5.1

Thecrazedorganist
September 12, 2009, 04:58 AM
So it's straight up KN03? A quick glance at wikipedia says the melting point is 334 C. That's a hot stove!

bigbadgun
September 12, 2009, 06:30 AM
Gin I do the same thing for my paper carts. A little smokeless powder desolved in acetone and coat the papers with and you get no paper residue or left overs after firing.
very clean burn papers.

Ginormous
September 12, 2009, 09:49 AM
I think the term "nitrated papers" can mean several things.

A) Paper soaked in a KNO3 (or similar oxidizer) and water solution and allowed to dry. Down and dirty, but seems to make the paper burn better, and the paper that does remain after firing smolders relatively quickly to ash (sometimes). Depending on the paper used, this cartridge is probably the most durable for field carry and use. Has a cool factor second to none when you tear the end off with your teeth to load a musket.

B) Paper coated with a nitrocellulose lacquer and allowed to dry. Down and dirty, but waterproofs the paper cartridge somewhat and makes it easier to insert into the cylinder or barrel. Better paper combustion during ignition in my experience, and no smoldering bits to ignite the next charge of black powder.

C) Paper treated in nitric acid and converted partially or entirely to nitrocellulose (guncotton). Elegant and clean. Never tried it, and probably won't, since nitrocellulose (guncotton) is pretty darned similar to what is contained in many types of "smokeless powder".

A and B are both easy to do and both have their proponents. C is pretty dangerous to do at home because of the chemical(s) involved, but can be ordered online as magician's flash paper. Nitric acid nitrates skin just as easily as it does paper, but hurts. . . a bunch. Been there and done that. :)

None of the above have replaced my Lee Perfect Powder Measure and Triple P cylinder loader combination at the range. But I'll admit to carrying B above when I want to travel light.

TomADC
October 10, 2009, 04:13 PM
Findly found this, I thinking of buying a IAB Sharps that uses paper patched cartridges anybody have experience with this rifles its a 54 cal.
I'm guessing it this works for pistols should be fine for rifles only bigger.

alemonkey
October 10, 2009, 04:56 PM
I've tried making nitrated paper cartridges for my 1851 Navy, but haven't had much luck. There's just not enough room on the 1851 to get them loaded.

BHP FAN
October 10, 2009, 06:17 PM
I'll let you know about the IAB Sharps after Sunday afternoon.I'm takeing my .54 paper cutter Sporting Rifle out for the first time tommorow.

TomADC
October 10, 2009, 06:35 PM
I'll let you know about the IAB Sharps after Sunday afternoon.I'm takeing my .54 paper cutter Sporting Rifle out for the first time tommorow.

Do me a favor and place a sheet of paper under the breach by the lever and see if you get any blowby on it.
What are you going to use for cartridges any pictures?

Smokin_Gun
October 10, 2009, 08:40 PM
I've made some with KN03 and phonebook paper...
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Smokin%20Gun%20Stuff/11-23-08_1438.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Smokin%20Gun%20Stuff/11-23-08_1436.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Smokin%20Gun%20Stuff/11-23-08_1453.jpg
Works well too ... these are mainly for my 1863 Sharps .54 papercutter...

BHP FAN
October 10, 2009, 08:41 PM
Well,I have always made pistol cartridges with ciggaret papers,so I decided to make my .54 sharps cartriges the same way.Right off, I discovered I'd need two,side by side to make the right width.Next time I'm going to use Lee Liquid Alox,but this time I tried Wonder Lube.I made 20 cartridges,but I'm only bringing 19 to try.#20 disintigrated about ten minutes after I lubed it with the yellow stuff.

A. Walker
October 10, 2009, 09:28 PM
I make my own Nitrated paper using phonebook pages...in my kitchen under the vented hood :O)



Seems like an awful lot of business to go through when cigarette papers are already nitrated and work just fine for making pistol cartridges. Looks like a fun experiment, though...

Smokin_Gun
October 10, 2009, 11:47 PM
Seems like an awful lot of business to go through when cigarette papers are already nitrated and work just fine for making pistol cartridges.

I've used Zig Zags & Tops ... they ain't the same at all compared to nitrated paper...this lites up and burns.
It looks like alot a work but it's jus' a lil' messy :O)

I'm sure you'll have as much fun usin' cig papers in the revs...

TomADC
October 11, 2009, 01:20 AM
Somebody mentioned flash paper...

http://www.magical-tricks.com/flashpaper.htm?gclid=CILZ5_eRtJ0CFQYMDQodeXGGig

A. Walker
October 11, 2009, 03:28 AM
this lites up and burns

That's right... I forgot that cigarette papers are flame-proof :rolleyes:. I know the difference; it's all basically the same stuff and only varies by percentage. All I'm saying is it isn't necessary, at least IMHO. I never have any problems with the cigarette papers not burning; I also wonder if people who have unburned scraps left in the chamber aren't over-crimping the end of the cartridge. I've found that a tube works best for forming and filling cartridges rather than a dowel; the crimp can be more easily adjusted.

Like I say, just my opinion.

Smokin_Gun
October 11, 2009, 05:20 AM
I can understand your opinion A. Walker, but I got myself proof of which works better. Try a .54/70gr papercart full a BP on a 435gr .557" boolit and shove it in a Sharps papercutter breech and fire... :O) there's a differance in nitrated paper carts. Same goes for the Revolvers ... your mileage may vary so give it a try for yourself.
All I know is my recipe works ... and used the cig papers to smoke with. Since I quite smokin' and use free phonebooks the KNO3 costs about nothin' and I get to be a mad scientist in my kitchen Lab ...:eek:

Ginormous
October 11, 2009, 07:20 AM
I make em up just so I have a reason to go by the local head shop for the papers. Keeps me in touch with the younger generation. I found out "groovy" is no longer an acceptable term in polite young speak. How embarrassing.

Ratdog68
October 11, 2009, 11:52 AM
I make em up just so I have a reason to go by the local head shop for the papers. Keeps me in touch with the younger generation. I found out "groovy" is no longer an acceptable term in polite young speak. How embarrassing.
Did they like your tire tread sandals while you were getting your rolling papers? :D

A. Walker
October 11, 2009, 11:58 AM
Try a .54/70gr papercart full a BP on a 435gr .557" boolit and shove it in a Sharps papercutter breech and fire...

Well, I have done this, but when I did I didn't bother to ask about the particulars of the cartridges. Same story... find it hard to believe that 70 grains of BP wouldn't thoroughly consume a cigarette paper, but I concede experience to you.

Everybody has their own methods of making the BP experience their own... I guess making nitrated paper is one of yours. I'm not knocking it; I'll bet it works great. Just wondering if all the effort is necessary is all. ;)

SHIPCHIEF
October 11, 2009, 01:24 PM
Are you trying to get around those new laws that require the gun to engrave the primer and cartridge head with a unique and identifiable number?
Next you will be advocating a way to prevent the rifling from being engraved into the bullet or sabot, perhaps with some new fangled idee, like using a fiberous material that won't retain the rifling marks, while holding the bullet? :rolleyes:

Smokin_Gun
October 11, 2009, 01:40 PM
find it hard to believe that 70 grains of BP wouldn't thoroughly consume a cigarette paper

When you grab a Paper cart .54/70 and shove it in the breech and close it choppin' off the end you'd be lucky if a cig paper cart stayed together pushin' into the breech...they come apart with cig papers they are too thin for the breech loaders of them Sharps Rifles. Have had equivlent expiriances with revolvers, but Zig Zags or Tops paper carts in .44's or .36's can work rather well.
I'd just as soon pour powder.

blackpowder bob
October 11, 2009, 08:15 PM
107010

I use onion skin paper soaked in potassium nitrate.
This is a range box I designed that will carry 50 rounds for a full day of shooting.

alemonkey
October 11, 2009, 08:19 PM
That looks great, BB. You did a really nice job.

I would really like to make the whole paper cartridge thing work for me, but I just can't seem to get them to work in an 1851 Navy. There just doesn't seem to be enough room. If anyone has any pointers on getting it to work with this model I'd sure like to hear them.

blackpowder bob
October 11, 2009, 08:43 PM
Thanks alemonkey
This set up is for my 1863 Sharps. Takes a lot longer to roll them than it does to shoot them.

Jim K
October 11, 2009, 08:57 PM
Maybe I misunderstood, but don't get paper cartridges confused with paper patched bullets. Not the same thing.

Jim

TomADC
October 11, 2009, 09:25 PM
Maybe I misunderstood, but don't get paper cartridges confused with paper patched bullets. Not the same thing.

Jim for us new guys who thought the terms were interchangable can somebody explain and/or post pictures of each.

Smokin_Gun
October 11, 2009, 10:11 PM
My 1863 ArmiSport Sharps .54 Cal Papercutter... Cav Carbine ... Carts
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Sharps%20RIfles/PHTO0017.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Sharps%20RIfles/PHTO0021.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/Sharps%20RIfles/PHTO0018.jpg

TomADC
October 11, 2009, 10:17 PM
Smokin_gun is that special paper? I'm close to buying a sharps perrcussion rifle.
Need to find out a little more on these.

BHP FAN
October 11, 2009, 10:47 PM
Well Jefferson Herb and I shot my paper cartridges.I hand lubed the bullet lube grooves with TC bore butter right before I shot.fired off about forty .45-70's,and fifteen .54 paper cartridges.my shoulder feels like been tenderized...but I had a great day.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 11, 2009, 10:54 PM
What an INTERESTING THREAD! :eek:

I could see me getting into this!:uhoh:

Oh no, one more thing and my entire house will fall down!:scrutiny::uhoh:

TomADC
October 11, 2009, 11:20 PM
BHP Fan what's your take on the IAB then? Any sign of blowby on the underside?
Read some place a guy claimed he set a rag on fire that was sitting under the breech.
Targets?

sharps59
October 11, 2009, 11:44 PM
tight gas check plate seal is required. there is an o-ring mod that can be done if needed. Had An IAB at one time it was good. had an armi sport. put a lot of time and money into it to get it to work properly. Now shoot a shiloh sharps. I nitrat adding machine paper. and close the end off w/ hair perm papers. I also use the tubes made by Charlie Hahn.
they save the nitrating and rolling steps. and being made of cardboard are more durable than paper. They also go out the barrel in pcs.

TomADC
October 12, 2009, 12:06 AM
Has anyone tried these? Looks like the powder would be loose in these and everything I read says the BP should be tight or compressed?

http://www.shelltube.us/index.html

average_shooter
October 12, 2009, 12:22 AM
Maybe I misunderstood, but don't get paper cartridges confused with paper patched bullets. Not the same thing.
Jim for us new guys who thought the terms were interchangable can somebody explain and/or post pictures of each.

As can be seen in some pics posted here paper cartridges are just that; instead of using a brass case paper is used instead to keep the powder and bullet together for easier reloading. Upon firing the paper is burned away as the powder burns.

A paper patched bullet is a method in which a brass-cartridge round is constructed with a bullet that has paper wrapped around the base. To my understanding, though I've never tried it, this is supposed to increase accuracy in certain rifles and may help hold more lube. With a paper patched bullet the projectile itself doesn't contact the rifling, the paper does. As the bullet leaves the muzzle the paper falls away.

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