gun shops in europe?


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coosbaycreep
September 12, 2009, 12:40 AM
I was in europe for two weeks last month, and only seen two gun shops while I was there. I know guns aren't as popular...or legal in europe as they are in America, but the two shops I did see were rather pathetic.

I went to one in Bucharest, Romania, and they only had 8 guns in there! I've got three times that many in my safe, and I'm just poor white trash. To be fair, the few guns they had were all super expensive brands like Merkel, which is a far cry from my small collection of mossbergs and keltecs, but still, I thought it was pretty sad. At least the chick running the place was hot though....in a third world, malnourished, vampire kinda way.

The only other gun shop I seen was in Budapest, Hungary. It was closed the day I was there and had bars on the windows so I couldn't really peek in, but most of the stickers on the windows were for American gun makers like Remington and Winchester.

So are gun shops/selection really as limited in europe as it appeared to me?

Another thing that surprised me about the places I visited in europe (romanian, austria, slovakia, germany, hungary), was just how much graffitti and hoodlums there was. Every major city I went to looked just as bad as any comparably sized American city. Romania is probably the worst place I've ever visited in my life. In fact, I felt more unsafe there than I ever have in Mexico.

Although I wasn't a victim of any sort of crimes or anything while I was there, I do know that if I had to live in any of those countries, I'd rather have a gun to protect myself than to be reliant on the police, as europe appears just as dangerous as America does. Maybe I'm just an eternal pessimist (or maybe europeans are naive or in denial), but I just don't get how europeans can be so anti-gun, when their countries feel just as unsafe as ours does, only they don't have the right to protect themselves?

After talking to some of the folks over there, I was also amazed at how many of them thought America was some lawless nation overrun with gun loving hillibillies who rob, rape, and shoot everything in sight. Regardless of our last president, I was disappointed by the amount of anti-Americanism held by most of the people I talked to, and how most of them believed their nation's were so much better and safer than ours, even though they clearly have less freedoms. Makes me glad I live in the greatest state in the greatest nation on earth.

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Sunray
September 12, 2009, 02:18 AM
Romania. Formerly part of the Warsaw Pact. Hungary. Communist country until 1989.
"...in a third world, malnourished, vampire kinda way...." Translyvannia is part of Romania.
"...limited in Europe as it appeared to me?..." Eastern Europe, for sure. Not many in the rest of Europe either.

gearchecker
September 12, 2009, 02:22 AM
The second Amendment is what makes this country feel safer than any other counrty on the earth.
Our government has not taken away the right for us americans to protect ourselves, or to own firearms. As most countries in Europe have done.

This is what it's all about.
From what I have studied and understand, the 2nd amendment was written with the intent of giving the people the right, to have the capability to protect themselves from the government and tyrannical rule.
The people will not be able to revolt when (not if) the government gets out of control, if their guns have been confiscated. So the 2nd amendment was written to protect the rights of the people to "keep" and "to bear arms" against the government when (not if) it gets out of control.

The rights of the "people" in the 2nd amendment was not just the right to own guns for their personal use, but to keep the government from taking their guns to avoid an anti-tyrannical revolt.

When it was written, the Royals in England had recently tried to force all of it's citizens to turn over all of their guns, including the shotguns they used to hunt for food to survive.
The Royals felt, that if the people weren't able to hunt for their own food they would be fully subjudicated to their rules and judgements.
The Royals thought they could command the "people" to live on what little they made available and if they were the "peoples" only means of food, they would have total control over the "people". The "people" could not revolt if they had only hay forks and basic farming tools against the government that had guns and cannons.
Simply put - If you didn't do what they wanted, they would starve you to death. Without any guns to revolt, the "people" were no threat and the Royals could, and did as they pleased.

Our forefathers made certain that we, "the american people" would always have the right to protect oursevles in a well armed militia from the government's absolute tyrannical control.

And because of that, we have the right to have guns in our homes, and the right to carry firearms as we go thru our daily lives.
Personal protection that is "concealed" keeps us safer for the most part.
The bad guys don't know who is "carrying", so they must be more selective of their victims. They must always be weary of the "armed victim" that will defend himself/herself if the need arises.
Just that possibility keeps us safer on our streets, than in any other country.

Thankfully somebody was thinking into the future when this country was founded.
The 2nd amendment does work!
The second was not written to give us the right "to own a gun".
It was written so that we could protect ourselves from the government.

Think this thru very carefully -
The government wrote a law, that give us the right to protect ourselves, from the very same government that wrote it.

And that's the 2nd amendment, isn't it grand!

Sunray
September 12, 2009, 02:37 AM
"...The Royals..." Read the history again, but not written by an American. The Royals had nothing to do with it. England had long been a Constitutional Monarchy by 1776.
Your Second Ammendment has nothing to do with Eastern European gun shops either.

25 Pdr
September 12, 2009, 06:52 AM
Here in the UK this is the only type of Gun Shop that Visitors are likely to see..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/smle_01/store4.jpg

There are Gun Shops but they are not allowed a public display. Here is the one I use at our local clay range.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/smle_01/newshop2.jpg

Although handguns and self loading centre fire rifles are not allowed in the UK, if you jump through lots of hoops you can own lots of long guns. I have 18 firearms.

Have seen many comments about us giving up our guns without a fight, what people have to remember is all guns are registered and owning an unregistered gun carries a FIVE year mandatory jail sentence.

BTW Have a look at this press report of a shop near me, raided for selling certain types of knifes. Yes even knives are banned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8224578.stm

Silvanus
September 12, 2009, 07:49 AM
So are gun shops/selection really as limited in europe as it appeared to me?

That's like going to a gunshop in California and asking if the selection is as limited in the USA...

You should have visited a gun shop in Luxembourg :D

I daresay the selection we have is even larger than in any American shop

You can take a look at these sites for example:

http://www.reloading-center.com/index.php (armes a feu==> occasion==> carabines)

http://www.armurerie.lu/Produits/produits.asp?P=1

http://www.arc.lu/english/produkte2.htm

Sav .250
September 12, 2009, 08:17 AM
Read your post..... Makes you wonder why everybody is breaking down our doors to get into this country......... if it`s as bad as they think/say.

Cycler
September 12, 2009, 09:00 AM
Silvanus - Holy Carp! A ППШ for under 300 euros!

Mp7
September 12, 2009, 09:07 AM
may be a bad example......


Here it is way safer than in the US.

I walk any street at any time, without having
the need to carry a gun.

A pepper spray and an awake mind will do.

Afy
September 12, 2009, 09:57 AM
Luxemberg, Switzerland, Belgium and France.

You mght be surprised by what you find.

KenWP
September 12, 2009, 10:10 AM
I have been in gun shops in France they seemed okay to me except for the locked door and haveing to be buzzed in. The only gun shops I have been in in England was Purdy,Holland and Holland and Boss but that was why I was in those shops to see the mystery of $250,000 guns.

52grain
September 12, 2009, 10:46 AM
Mp7- what part of Hamburg do you live in? I lived there for a year and there are definitely places south of the Elbe that I would not go out after dark without a group. In the vast majority of the places that I have been to in the US, a can of mace would have been more than sufficient. I have never carried a gun for protection and do not own a handgun.

The only time that I have ever been jumped was near Hamburg city hall after a fireworks show in early September/late August. It was a group of 3 teenagers that obviously didn't know much. One of them jumped while punching a guy I was with. They ran off after we stood our ground.

Bottom line, I agree with the majority of the people posting: The majority of Western Europe is more or less as safe as the majority of the US and European gun laws are over the top. Seriously, there are plenty of good reasons why you might want/need a semi-auto hunting rifle.

Afy
September 12, 2009, 10:54 AM
Klineia: The gun laws in Europe are very different to those of the nanny state known as the UK.
We can an do own Semi Autos of all kinds, auto's a legal in some places as well. Pistols, revolvers et al are easy to get. Yes there are quirks in the law like everywhere else.

Silencers are over the counter in most countries for example. I have one for my .260, 9mm and .22 LR rifle and pistol. Thinking of getting one for my Vz 58.

Now the nanny state of UK, hell you need a police background check to drive your or your neighbours kids to the ball game.

52grain
September 12, 2009, 11:41 AM
Afy- Where are you located? In Germany gun ownership was highly regulated. At one time (this may have changed) you had to get a permit to own a gun (one permit per gun) that expired every three years and the government required that gun owners purchase insurance.

Silvanus
September 12, 2009, 01:07 PM
Holy Carp! A ППШ for under 300 euros

A what? :D

Wait, you mean the PPSH, right? :) (and they are in a pretty nice condition too, I handled one at that shop)

mljdeckard
September 12, 2009, 01:26 PM
MP7 -There's a big difference between 'feeling' safe and BEING safe. Those who are not allowed to arm themselves have a sense of peace because there is nothing they can do about their own safety. They will tell themselves that they are whether they are safe or not. I lived in Denmark and Germany for four years, including more than a couple of trips to Hamburg, and I will absolutely tell you, you are fooling yourself. Europe has the exact same crime problems as America. (illegal) Immigrants running drug and human smuggling trade. The actual victimization rate, meaning, the likelihood that you will be the victim of a violent crime, is much higher in pretty much all of Europe than in America. In America, the bulk of the violence is concentrated to bad parts of some big cities and the border crossing points.

When you start carrying a gun for protection, you have a change in attitude. You start to see things you ignored before, because it's even more important to avoid trouble in the first place. You realize all of the things you were missing. When you are then forced to not carry a gun, because you move somewhere that denies your right to self-defense, you are faced with the reality of how vulnerable you are. You will never feel 'safe' with pepper spray after you have carried a gun.

And yes, no matter how much I love Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, Berlin, Munich, and London, I am always glad to come home. (By the way, I have witnessed violent crime in ALL of those cities.)

MachIVshooter
September 12, 2009, 02:43 PM
Have seen many comments about us giving up our guns without a fight, what people have to remember is all guns are registered and owning an unregistered gun carries a FIVE year mandatory jail sentence.

The problem was that you all didn't fight hard enough to defeat the earlier, seemingly lesser bits of gun control that allowed it to get to that point. That is why we here in the USA so adamantly oppose any sort of registration.

Here it is way safer than in the US.

I walk any street at any time, without having
the need to carry a gun.

A pepper spray and an awake mind will do.

While the homicide rate in the US is higher, through Europe you have, on average, a greater likelihood of being a victim of violence than in the United States. Remember, the worst violent crimes are not the only violent crimes. Also remember that the extreme majority of our violent crime is concentrated in the major urban areas, most of which have stricter gun control. Of course, the population density and diversity is a greater factor in the crime rate, but the likelihood of victims being unarmed certainly plays a part in that. In the area where I reside, over 85% of households are armed, and the attitude that prevails in this area is one of fierce independence and protection of life and property. There hasn't been a documented homicide or forceable rape in my lifetime in this county. About the only violence out here is domestic, the occasional barfight, or teenagers at school duking it out. Property crimes are also minimal; the last police chase here was 2-1/2 years ago. Two teenagers stole an SUV, got made when they ran a stopsign in front of a sheriff's deputy.

The gun laws in Europe are very different to those of the nanny state known as the UK.
We can an do own Semi Autos of all kinds, auto's a legal in some places as well. Pistols, revolvers et al are easy to get. Yes there are quirks in the law like everywhere else.

Silencers are over the counter in most countries for example

Not trying to start a pissing match here, but can you buy a firearm whenever you feel like it without first obtaining some sort of license or permit? While I despise the NFA regulations, I find our restrictions on silencers and full autos far more palletable than having licensing and registration requirements for ALL guns.

oneounceload
September 12, 2009, 02:56 PM
Maybe you should have visited the VT area in Italy, or Eibar in Spain.......or Suhl in Germany.......

Shung
September 12, 2009, 02:56 PM
but can you buy a firearm whenever you feel like it without first obtaining some sort of license or permit

yes... I could and I can.

mljdeckard
September 12, 2009, 02:56 PM
Exactly. There's no need to strictly regulate silencers when the guns they go on are already so strictly regulated most people won't bother getting them at all.

I did know a guy in Denmark who has a 10/22 with a suppressed barrel. I asked him if it was hard to get with the can, he said that there were no laws regulating suppressors, just strict laws about guns in general. He paid many thousands of dollars a year to keep a handful of rifles and reloading gear. Also, he has to number his arrows. If you bowhunt there, and you have a non-fatal hit, and your arrow is found later, you will be prosecuted.

allserene
September 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
I am English and I live in Washington State. I have an AR-15 223 and a CZ 22 and I am going to get a 9mm CZ p-01 next week. I was an officer in a gun club for 14 years in England. I bought the AR15 and bought a gun club membership in the gun shop here and was given a key. I went up there on my own and figured out how the AR15 worked by trial and error and managed not to shoot my head off - just. I am still overawed at how easy it all was - I simply cannot believe the fantastic priveledge. At the same time I think about the total nutcases who can just go and get guns so easily so long as they havent been judged crazy or were clever enough not to have convictions. Some of the most dangerous people are very intelligent and have no convictions and have good jobs etc

To get ammo on behalf of the club in England, I had to have all sorts of authorisations - here I go into Walmart with a trolley. In the UK, to get my firearms certificate, the police interviewed me at home and went down the street asking the neighbours about me. I did 6 months probation as a gun club member, got references and then eventually I got a permit for a single shot 22. It was a very very long careful process. Now it's even harder and expensive too with alterations to your house and special direct alarms etc

So although US laws are great for me and I am dizzy with the possibilities, I do worry about how easy it all is. I wont be a citizen until next year so what I think doesnt matter for now. I am in favour of easy gun laws but only when people are more carefully checked. I know that here, that has conotations of tyrants etc, but that is more to do with culture and history, and I reckon extra checking of people and required gun cabinets etc , in exchange for a reinforcement and guarantee of gun rights at the Federal level and pre empting State laws, would satify me when the day arrives that it's any of my business

I think many gun owners would agree to 'give and take' as long as the government had lots of 'give' and not much 'take'

I want to be able to move to other States etc without being restricted - so there are lots of these situations where government legislation to help gun owners across States could be got in exchange for some sensible (not open ended) safeguards

Example: I wouldnt be too annoyed about being required to do a gun handling course and have a locked steel gun cabinet in exchange for the ability to take my gun to any State and sell it into any State etc etc

Gun shops - I live in a small town with 4 gun shops - it's great - I hang around in there a lot as I am retired. I will end up with more guns than them ! In the UK, only the big cities have shops which are really for a very small market.
In 5 years in the UK I was burgled 5 times, and two of those I was in bed. But there is no fear in the UK as there is here because a gun armed burglar is less common than a truck demolishing your house. You just put the light on and they run away. In Washington State there is very little burglary(lots of homeowner guns ?), but lots of gun deaths. The situations are just not comparable so it's very hard to make comparisons...

I reckon American gun owners would benefit from coming off the defensive and asking for 'liberalisation' of gun ownership across the States in exchange for some small responsible concessions (which would benefit gun owners actually), and keep the non owners on side at the same time

doc2rn
September 13, 2009, 01:03 AM
I would gladly give up hi-cap mags for cans/ silencers. I would gladly give up filling out 4473s for a nationally registered CCW too but that isnt likely to happen either.

allserene
September 13, 2009, 01:24 AM
Thing about politicians is they just want to look good - so if we can get concessions that make them look good, in exchange for stuff we don't care that much about anyway, then that's the way to go....

Actually I would like other shooters to have had at least basic training if they are going to stand 6 feet away from me with an AK47 - an hour's training is plenty. How long does it take to tell em not to point their gun at anyone or prop it cocked and loaded against their truck wheel. Even Cheney shot his buddy by accident. A look at some of the stuff on utube where they give a 7 year old a fully automatic large bore weapon and it spins him round in circles and everyone ducks, really makes me twitchy about safety so I would let the politicians make rules for that in exchange for.....
I haven't done enough reading to judge, but I get the impression that the gun debate is going in circles with each side repeating their own stuff and a stand off is happening
The NRA is doing a great job but it looks like a fight - a rearguard action - I reckon they should play the Politicians at their own game and make progress with more stealth - more bargaining -understanding the enemy as it were ...

I am wandering off subject ... gun shops in Europe ? I wouldn't invest in one....

mljdeckard
September 13, 2009, 01:51 AM
Here's the thing allserene.

When you start putting 'minimum requirements' on fundamental human rights, the little guy always loses. We did it on voting rights in the early part of the 20th century, making voters pass literacy tests. Of course, what they really were was a scheme to exclude blacks from voting. We don't tell people they have to demonstrate an understanding of religion to practice it, a level of understanding of politics to protest it, or the ability to read a map to travel.

If we concede that a minimum amount of (the antis love this word) 'reasonable' training is required, it will be left to politicians to decide what 'reasonable' means.

The other trap we all fall into is, the fact that competency is relative. It's easy for us to say; "anyone crazier or stupider than me shouldn't be allowed to own a gun." But the problem is, there is always someone better than you who will be willing to allow 'reasonable' restrictions because he knows he is good enough that it won't affect him. Just the stupid people. I have discharge paperwork from the military that says I am an expert with a rifle and a pistol, but I know the truth is, these standards aren't that stringent. I would be doing all gun owners a disservice if I let the government say that 'competent' people, such as those with military and police training are ok to own a gun, but EVERYONE ELSE has to take a class. We have just given the police and the military a higher level of trust than the citizenry, which is EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid.

allserene
September 13, 2009, 11:52 AM
Very, very good points there MLJDECKARD. I only just got the 'right' to own any kind of gun, as Washington State had an 'alien' law which was really a ban on 'non-citizens' - of course black people were 'non-citizens' for a long time, so the undercurrents were there and it was a 'Jim Crow' law and the kind of abuse of law you are talking about
Luckily the NRA got the law changed in July this year so that 10 year unconditional green card holders like me are now treated the same as other humans permanently resident (14 th amendment). I will get U.S. Citizenship next year for a number of reasons but including a defensive move in case they reverse this law, and to support respectable, responsible non - citizens being treated with respect. Like most genuine legals, I am very 'anti' illegals and disgusted when they get driver's licenses etc. I went through a long period of hell to get my 'real' green card and I am livid at these people simply stealing the privileges I worked so hard to get

I like your point about 'anyone stupider than me...' It's like the definition of an alcoholic - 'someone I don't like who drinks as much as me'. But we agree with driver tests before they get a license, and exams for doctors, and so as long as we have eternal vigilance on basic safety training ( 1 hour or so), not being used as a 'discouragement' tool, then I think that would benefit all shooters who have to stand next to new shooters, and the new shooters themselves - and we could 'swap' it for a concession on some law we don't like. We shouldn't have to give em anything, but in politics we have to beat em at their own game. I agree that we need to be always suspicious of any moves by any government and always be ready to examine them and expose their 'real' intentions

I know the argument on basic inalienable rights and the constitution etc, but in the real world we are restricted on thousands of rights by laws including picking dog poop up etc. The local residents association send a letter round saying they will be watching everyone to see they are trimming their shrubs ! So our total freedoms were lost a long time ago and now the game is making sure that restrictions are minimal and are crafted to work for us

It's a good idea for Americans to keep an eye on Europe and the UK because they always lead on slavery bans/votes for women/public health systems/executions/extended vacation time/political correctness/gun control etc etc and the US follows eventually. The US therefore has an advantage in that we can evaluate what went right and what went wrong in these social developments (experiments), and can try to avoid what went wrong.
Self protection has not been a legal motive for gun ownership in the UK for a very long time and the incidence of non drug gang people being shot is absolutely miniscule. However, the gun laws went too far and bore down far too hard on people who were never going to be a problem, and Americans are right to be on their toes at making sure that doesn't happen here - either all at once or as 'creeping' legislation

Doggy Daddy
September 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
I think many gun owners would agree to 'give and take' as long as the government had lots of 'give' and not much 'take'

No. :barf:

I'll ONLY be content with keeping what I have and regaining what has been taken. There'll be no "one step forward, two steps back." It must be one step forward, then hold position until we can make another step forward.

DD

ThrottleJockey72
September 13, 2009, 01:51 PM
but can you buy a firearm whenever you feel like it without first obtaining some sort of license or permit?
Not here in Minnesota. You have to have a "permit to purchase". It requires a background check identical to the "permit to carry" check. Then you still have to go through NICs too. And if you are a regular purchaser, as in every week or more than once a week, NICs will make you wait. I'm certain this isn't just in MN either.

lykoris
September 13, 2009, 03:34 PM
I'll ONLY be content with keeping what I have and regaining what has been taken.

In my view that is the only position to have - zero compromise and a commitment to pass traditions down to the next generation.

Also agree that saying you feel safer in Europe than the U.S. isn't accurate and I've lived in Dublin, Paris, Moscow and Luxembourg. Bad things happen to good people everywhere - unfortunately that is life but I would prefer to have a handgun as a means of defense against a knife.

The fact of the matter is that in Europe the firearm/handgun has been removed for many decades as a 'means of defense' for the law abiding citizen which is sad but that is the law & as such we obey....criminals obviously are indifferent.

As for gun stores, if you went to Frankonia in Germany you would have a very different view - you can't take one gunshop in the E.U. as being representative of the rest, massive differences in firearms legislation in every country....which accounts for large variations in the type of things you see in a gunshop.

As a European, I fully agree with your sentiment Doggy Daddy. Look at how much the Swiss have lost complying with EU legislation on firearms...by being 'reasonable' and compromising with the other side. It just gets worse and worse...more and more restrictive with each passing year.

allserene
September 13, 2009, 04:24 PM
I think we all agree what we want (near enough), so it's just a question of what methods would be effective to deliver that. Is it :

A Only elect people who will guarantee no restrictions at all and roll back existing restrictions
OR
B Play politics and outsmart them with clever tactics giving them bits of what they want that make them look good, but getting what we want too
OR
C Some people talk about seceding from the USA or carrying out armed revolution. I think they are proposing fighting the politicians but of course it would really mean killing American Police Officers and/or U.S. soldiers so I would dismiss that option and I hope it isn't the reason why people are buying guns in large numbers

Option A would be nice but in reality, the urbanization of the US and the change in demographics means it's a losing tactic. It's like Northern Ireland, the demographics of which will automatically take it into a united Ireland when a referendum comes in 20, 30 years or whatever.

Option C is a fantasy and the people who propose it are the biggest supporters of US Police Officers and the Military so it's just a non starter

That only leaves option B. Politicians are weak and unprincipled and can be manipulated.
When management negotiate with the unions, they give them stuff that doesn't matter but get valuable concessions that they can extend in future. Politicians are masters of this and have been doing it to us - but if we turn the tables and use their tactics against them , that would be a great outcome.
But that will involve intelligent strategy and just confronting them with no power in our corner will not do the job

When the NRA upset the Washington Laws and got me my guns, it wasn't through the vote and it wasn't through armed confrontation - it was through money and clever attorneys and strategy. I reckon that's the way to go using existing laws and the constitution, but outwitting (ok moulding) public opinion is also very necessary and making a big deal about some pretty easy concessions on our side would reduce the opposition and enhance our chances of holding the line on the big stuff


Of course it would be nice to just dig in and say 'from my cold fingers ' etc, but if we have no trench and no weapons, it's a losing strategy in the long run and we need smarter strategies to achieve our purpose

Shung
September 13, 2009, 05:08 PM
the only way not to LOOSE any rights, is to fight for MORE rights, not makiing compromises.. You won't get them, but at least you will be fighting for something you cannot loose..

lykoris
September 13, 2009, 07:01 PM
allserene
When the NRA upset the Washington Laws and got me my guns, it wasn't through the vote and it wasn't through armed confrontation - it was through money and clever attorneys and strategy.

The NRA didn't negociate or compromise on other areas of the firearms legislation to obtain the rights in relation to overturning the handgun ban.

They didn't concede other areas but recovered what was originally taken away.

Your attitude, having read your posts, is too English.

You compromised time and time again and the UK has precious little left, no handguns(not even rimfire) and only .22lr is authorised as a semi-auto.

There is no compromise because time and time and time again it will be more restrictive legislation.

lykoris
September 13, 2009, 07:38 PM
By too English I mean the following

You said “I was an officer in a gun club for 14 years in England.”



And then you make reference to nearly shooting yourself with an AR-15.
I bought the AR15 and bought a gun club membership in the gun shop here and was given a key. I went up there on my own and figured out how the AR15 worked by trial and error and managed not to shoot my head off - just.




I’m sorry but I find that extremely hard to believe as a former ‘officer in a gun club for 14 years’. What ever happened to each individual "assuming responsibility for their own actions" the AR-15 came with a manual...or I'm certain you could have downloaded one off the net and read it to understand how the basic firearm operates before renting one at the club. You could even have asked somebody to explain its operation, an AR is an AR. But by your rationale people should have mandatory training 1 hour enforced by the government. To me that is like treating the average Joe like an enfant. We don't have that in Luxembourg you'll be happy to hear and nobody is shooting themselves here.

“To get ammo on behalf of the club in England, I had to have all sorts of authorisations - here I go into Walmart with a trolley. ”

why are cartridges in a grocery store so dangerous? Unless you have a firearm I don't see the problem....I guess you are worried criminals can buy the ammo. Well they will get ammo off the black market regardless so why inconvenience 95% of the law abiding citizens for the 5% of criminals.

you’re still thinking as though you are in the U.K. It’s a repressive system. In Luxembourg I can walk into my armory and buy 200,000 rounds if I want and why not? Why shouldn't I be allowed to buy as much bulk ammo as I wish to take advantage of good prices or stockpile ammo while it is still cheap....the way some did in the US before the ammo shortage there. French/Germans buy ridiculous amounts of ammo here due to cheap prices, 20-30k each...nobody cares.

In the UK, to get my firearms certificate, the police interviewed me at home and went down the street asking the neighbours about me. I did 6 months probation as a gun club member, got references and then eventually I got a permit for a single shot 22. It was a very very long careful process. Now it's even harder and expensive too with alterations to your house and special direct alarms etc

The process is hard/expensive for a single deliberate reason – It puts people off becoming a target shooter/hunter due to the high expense and time consuming paperwork with all sorts of documents required/interviews/police requiring statements from friends on your character/residence/employment blah blah blah blah blah. It is nothing but a nanny state obsessed with 300 checks & balances before giving you the right to own a rifle…a single shot .22 at that - that's CRAZY!! and you have to justify each and every firearm you buy..awaiting their approval first to add anything to your license….amount of ammo for each and every rifle needs to be justified as well, maybe they'll allow you up your 300 limit to buy an actual brick of .22lr...a whole 500 rounds. I know the UK system. It’s incredibly repressive, almost sickening like the system in the republic of Ireland.

There are so many points in your posts that illustrate your way of thinking that as I said is simply too English....all from the 14 years experience of living in the U.K.

“I am in favour of easy gun laws but only when people are more carefully checked. I know that here, that has conotations of tyrants etc, but that is more to do with culture and history, and I reckon extra checking of people and required gun cabinets etc , in exchange for a reinforcement and guarantee of gun rights at the Federal level and pre empting State laws, would satify me when the day arrives that it's any of my business”

you see the need for all of that because you lived within the UK system for so long and for you it is ‘normal’. The Americans do not see that need and in my opinion rightly so because politicians haven’t passed daft laws to make it expensive/extremely time consuming to get a license to own a single shot .22

Roll back 60-100 years ago and look at firearms legislation…we had none of this nonsense in Europe and now it’s all we have each and every year.

I mean the Swiss socialist party wants to ban pump action shotguns solely because of the perception of the ‘pump action’ part of it. It's beyond a joke.

Our grandfathers lived in times where they had no such laws, why can’t we do likewise? Has human nature changed that much that we are a greater danger to the public/ourselves with firearms ?

Personally, I think not.

Shung
September 13, 2009, 08:42 PM
100% agree with Lykoris..

WE DON'T WANT a nanny state !

Responsabilize citizens.. Punish guilty people severly,but STOP putting all evils on the back of the society !

Shung
September 13, 2009, 08:43 PM
mean the Swiss socialist party wants to ban pump action shotguns solely because of the perception of the ‘pump action’ part of it. It's beyond a joke

yep, a joke.. btw, their are things even more funny.. In a BEGLIAN law text, certain type of guns are officially qualified as "rambo type weapons"....

:banghead:

allserene
September 14, 2009, 12:04 AM
Your attitude, having read your posts, is too English.

You compromised time and time again and the UK has precious little left, no handguns(not even rimfire) and only .22lr is authorised as a semi-auto.

I am not apologizing for being English and next year when I become American, I wont apologize for being an American either...

You seem to think that I compromised in the UK and I am responsible for what the UK laws are and I am trying to transplant that into the US. Shoot the messenger or what.

Nothing could be further from the truth. UK laws are a sneaky gun ban by the back door and not a safety move at all - I only described them so people would know how it works - I didnt expect ANYONE to get the idea I agreed with those laws and try to hold me personally responsible


BUT - basic safety training (1 hour) and steel cabinets would stop incidents happening that are bad for ALL shooters. (keep the guns away from kids, thieves, depressed wives)

When I go on utube and see a 7 year old who has never handled a gun, and I see someone give him a full auto AK and he fires it in a semi circle and everyone dives for cover, I know that basic safe handling needs to be improved. That stuff happening doesn't help ANY of us guys or our cause

The guy Dick Cheney peppered agrees with me so that's one.

lykoris
September 14, 2009, 06:20 AM
this thread will be shut down given it is off-topic from the OP so I set up a different thread to respond to you Allserene

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5903307#post5903307

rbernie
September 14, 2009, 09:13 AM
We do seemed to have wandered a bit far from the premise of the thread, namely the quantity and quality of gunshops in Europe.

Let's reel it back in.

texasaggie2010
September 25, 2009, 12:35 AM
Ill give it a shot.

Hopefully I'll be going to europe next summer on a study abroad. Im interested in C&R and WW 1 WW 2 type firearms, K31 G41, G42, Lugers, Walthers, 1911's if I were so lucky. How would one go about finding a gun shop in europe? Any particular country or area that caters to the american tourist? Any "local" open air vegetable and gun market? Any experiences on importing into the US through an importer (seems like a $100 fee)?

Any ideas on the US military parts clause on ATF Form 6? Can I not buy a WW2 1911 and import it to the US?

Shung
September 25, 2009, 06:40 AM
COME to SWITZERLAND !

I don't know if you can buy and export a WW2 gun, but I sure can do it for you !

Martyk
September 25, 2009, 07:19 AM
The second Amendment is what makes this country feel safer than any other country on the earth.
Our government has not taken away the right for us americans to protect ourselves, or to own firearms. As most countries in Europe have done.

This is what it's all about.
From what I have studied and understand, the 2nd amendment was written with the intent of giving the people the right, to have the capability to protect themselves from the government and tyrannical rule.
The people will not be able to revolt when (not if) the government gets out of control, if their guns have been confiscated. So the 2nd amendment was written to protect the rights of the people to "keep" and "to bear arms" against the government when (not if) it gets out of control.

The rights of the "people" in the 2nd amendment was not just the right to own guns for their personal use, but to keep the government from taking their guns to avoid an anti-tyrannical revolt.

When it was written, the Royals in England had recently tried to force all of it's citizens to turn over all of their guns, including the shotguns they used to hunt for food to survive.
The Royals felt, that if the people weren't able to hunt for their own food they would be fully subjudicated to their rules and judgements.
The Royals thought they could command the "people" to live on what little they made available and if they were the "peoples" only means of food, they would have total control over the "people". The "people" could not revolt if they had only hay forks and basic farming tools against the government that had guns and cannons.
Simply put - If you didn't do what they wanted, they would starve you to death. Without any guns to revolt, the "people" were no threat and the Royals could, and did as they pleased.

Our forefathers made certain that we, "the american people" would always have the right to protect oursevles in a well armed militia from the government's absolute tyrannical control.

And because of that, we have the right to have guns in our homes, and the right to carry firearms as we go thru our daily lives.
Personal protection that is "concealed" keeps us safer for the most part.
The bad guys don't know who is "carrying", so they must be more selective of their victims. They must always be weary of the "armed victim" that will defend himself/herself if the need arises.
Just that possibility keeps us safer on our streets, than in any other country.

Thankfully somebody was thinking into the future when this country was founded.
The 2nd amendment does work!
The second was not written to give us the right "to own a gun".
It was written so that we could protect ourselves from the government.

Think this thru very carefully -
The government wrote a law, that give us the right to protect ourselves, from the very same government that wrote it.

And that's the 2nd amendment, isn't it grand!
__________________

By Far and Away the best explanation of the purpose of the second amendment I have ever heard someone articulate. BRAVO !!

John Parker
September 25, 2009, 07:26 AM
From what I have studied and understand, the 2nd amendment was written with the intent of giving the people the right, to have the capability to protect themselves from the government and tyrannical rule.

Tiny bit of important clarification: the US Constitution does not give anyone any rights. It's intent is to ensure that the government cannot infringe on natural and God-given rights. It itself is a document designed to limit government power by defining what the government can and cannot do.

gvass
September 25, 2009, 08:27 AM
"I went to one in Bucharest, Romania, and they only had 8 guns in there! I've got three times that many in my safe, and I'm just poor white trash. To be fair, the few guns they had were all super expensive brands like Merkel, which is a far cry from my small collection of mossbergs and keltecs, but still, I thought it was pretty sad. At least the chick running the place was hot though....in a third world, malnourished, vampire kinda way.

The only other gun shop I seen was in Budapest, Hungary. It was closed the day I was there and had bars on the windows so I couldn't really peek in, but most of the stickers on the windows were for American gun makers like Remington and Winchester.

So are gun shops/selection really as limited in europe as it appeared to me?
"

In the US the average gun buyer want gun for self/home defense.

In most European countries, especially in former socialist bloc, there is no such thing. Selfdefence is not a legal reason to have a lethal firearm.
We are limited to some non-lethal guns (and it is still a big step forward from the times before 1990.).

The real firearms here (in Hungary) are in 90% hunting rifles.

(The other legal possibility is target shooting, but that is also very expensive for the average people.)

BUT our gun shops are still much better than yours in New York City, I think :evil:

ogunski
September 25, 2009, 09:03 AM
Gun ownership is one of the primary(among others) things that differentiates a citizen from a subject. :)

BTR
September 25, 2009, 02:58 PM
My brother told me he saw a minigun in a Swiss gun shop. :)

I sure hope they keep their firearms.

CWL
September 25, 2009, 03:10 PM
You should look into gun shops in France.

They have firearms that would make Americans drool.

ezypikns
September 25, 2009, 03:23 PM
that there are countries with gun shops with a better selection and more reasonable prices than here in the U.S.

There aren't.

In the first place, I don't think there is a country in the world today that has less restrictive gun laws than we do.

I know, I know, there are lots of people here who want to change that. That's why we have to keep a close eye on them, and do everything we can to support RKBA.

I'm not saying you can't buy, own, and use guns anywhere else in the world.

But for ordinary people, living ordinary peaceful lives (that kind of cuts out the poopholes of the world where every wild eyed religious fanatic or teenager has a beat up AK), we have it the best.

As the OP said, he's just an average guy. Here in the U.S. even an average guy can have a collection other gun enthusiasts in the world (not the very rich) would really envy.

Here's a little test for example: Someone here on "The High Road" has an M1 for sale. He (or she) lives right there in your home town in the good old U.S.A. You've got the cash so you arrange to meet in a parking lot. It's nice if the two of you exchange a simple bill of sale, but the law doesn't require it. Everything's good. Everything's legal. Everyone's happy.

Ask some of our foreign members here how that transaction would be viewed in their countries. Maybe it would be just dandy.

Think about it.

Moonclip
September 25, 2009, 11:14 PM
Silvanus, you would be surprised how many guns and gunshops we have in California. it is a common misconseption we don't have guns here or can't buy cetain types. I own a 3 digit number worth of them in CA.

I never did get to go to any gunshops in Europe. I was mostly in Italy but in more remote areas like Sardinia. Was in military for four years over there. I did see a gunshop in Rome but it was closed.

Still seems Switzerland is the best place to be in Europe for gun ownership. If I couldn't live in US, Switzerland likely would be my 2nd choice to call home.

I have even been tempted to give Protell, Swiss equivalent of USA's NRA, money before. I'd hate to see the liberal antigunners over there win any victories.

allserene
September 25, 2009, 11:40 PM
I think the summary of the King in England wanting to starve the people so he could control them, and therefore he removed their guns is about as factually inaccurate as you get. Up to the second world war (1939 to 1945), people could own pretty much what they wanted. I had a 3" magnum 12 bore at the age of 13 in the 1960's and there and there wasn't even such a thing as a shotgun certificate

English people dont live by hunting - 55 million English on a piece of land you can drive across in 2 hours ? Nope it's spuds and not bunny rabbits.

England had a bill of rights (no not magna Cart) 100 years before the Americans and it was worded very much the same. England has the right to bear arms because anything that isn't illegal is legal - a right does not have to be given by the government. The Brits have as much a right to bear arms as the Americans and that is the situation right now. In fact the American right can be amended but the British right just 'is'. Think about it. Americans are blind to the English heritage they inherited and think they invented freedom - they didnt.
Americans should study this and then they will see that guns have been heavily restricted in the UK and can be heavily restricted in the US in just the same manner. When the last legal gun is handed in in the US, the 2nd amendment will still be in force. The constitution does not say the State cannot legislate to force you to have an expensive gun cabinet. - it doesn't say the State cannot force you to register each gun. It doesn't say they cant tax guns or ammo heavily. $4k per annum on a dedicated alarm line to the Police Station ? What does the 2nd say about that ? Replace all your inner doors with hardwood - what amendment forbids that requirement ? Look at the State laws on magazines etc etc etc

The US is just as easily controlled and restricted as the UK and it is quite possible and legal to have exactly the same draconian legislation as the UK. The constitution cannot stop it because the Constitution does not address regulation.

If you doubt what I am saying and you think the 2nd will protect you, examine the existing restrictions of some of the North East States

The 2nd will not protect gun rights and there is nothing to stop the States let alone the Feds, making the US like the UK. It's already almost happened in some States

Sure, the voters and their influence have held some of the line, but don't rely on it because the future is urban and the future is browner than whiter and the future population is not an identikit of a white idaho buffalo farmer

The times they are a changin' - but not yet, so I am enjoying my shooting and the present situation might even prevail until I hang up my rifle

Get real Americans, forget the 2nd as it wont save your guns - the threat is creeping State regulations and you need to focus on that.

I started owning guns in the UK in the 1960's and now I am a wild west man from washington State and all my buddies are cowboys. I have seen it from both sides and learned the law and the Constitution and all the 2nd amendment folk are going down with the ship - you might as well rely on the amendment repealing alcohol prohibition

Shung
September 26, 2009, 06:58 AM
Ask some of our foreign members here how that transaction would be viewed in their countries. Maybe it would be just dandy.

Well, in Switzerland, and until december 2008 this was perfectly legal.

btw, I am pretty sure that a shop like www.lagardere.ch would make most of american gun shop customera drool... look at the full auto prices.. ;)

THE REAL advantage of the USA is the right to BEAR arms, in open carry or concealed carry.. we lost that 20 years ago.

Moonclip
September 26, 2009, 07:02 AM
I would think in some areas of Europe face to face paperless transactions are still common, maybe the former Yugoslavia in many areas and in Albania?

In my area of USA they are now only legal for long guns over 50 years old.

xRYANx
September 26, 2009, 04:13 PM
Hi everybody,

I'm from Germany & visited a police station to collect information about owning a gun but the cop wasn't very helpful - he was prejudiced & not very helpful.
Wanting to protect yourself or your family is unfortunately not a good enough reason to own a handgun in Germany.
It is sad - considering the times of increasing acts of terrorism or willingness of people for violence against people with moral courage - that citizens who never committed a crime are not allowed to protect themselves.

ezypikns
September 27, 2009, 01:33 AM
THE REAL advantage of the USA is the right to BEAR arms, in open carry or concealed carry.. we lost that 20 years ago.

I rest my case.

Skoghund
September 27, 2009, 08:14 AM
I have a very good gun shop 30 mins away from my place here in Sweden . They have a vast range of guns rangeing from the cheap US weapons to quality European weapons. A very good range of scopes and no shortage of ammo and reloading gear.
Someone asked why we Europeans are not kicking down the door to get into the US. There is more to life than guns, like good free point of use health care. I would get 80% of my wages for a year if i was unemployed and good education for our kids. Plus you can walk the streets without fear.
Living in a socialist country like Sweden i can afford quality weapons and hunt as many deer as i like.

Shung
September 27, 2009, 08:30 AM
Plus you can walk the streets without fear

I don't fear fire in my home.. but I'm happy to legally be able to own and "bear" a fire extinguisher...

You see the difference ?

GUNS =/ Hunting only...

ezypikns
September 27, 2009, 12:41 PM
other fine places in the world to live. And obviously, in some (or perhaps most) European countries, firearms ownership is quite possible, or even easy to arrange.

I have traveled to the U.K. (my wife has family there), where I believe firearms ownership IS restricted, France, and Italy. I was delighted with the countries and the people I met. They were without exception, very friendly and welcoming.

However, I believe it's safe to say that Western European culture would not be considered a "gun" culture. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Just this last weekend, we had (in Dallas) a massive gun show in a local arena. This kind of show is certainly not confined to Dallas, or even Texas. And it occurs about four times a year. There are similar (and larger) shows all over the U.S. Can I experience the same thing in most European countries?

What I was trying to address was the belief by some people in my country that there exists somewhere else in the world a place where freedom to buy, use, and carry firearms on a daily basis, is easier than what we experience here.

berrieberrie
September 27, 2009, 04:26 PM
In a BELGIAN law text, certain type of guns are officially qualified as "rambo type weapons"....
Ahem... those words were spoken by the governor of East Flanders province, and Belgium is still enough of a democracy in that the personal opinion of one politically-appointed, anti-gun civil servant does NOT yet equal law. He does not have the power to invent new arms categories, let alone forbid them, as much as he'd like to.

Shung
September 27, 2009, 04:32 PM
Im pretty sure I read this from an official text berrieberrie-- will try to dig that out from my archives.

thx for the precision-

mustang_steve
September 27, 2009, 05:23 PM
Bottom line, we have one of the better if not the best laws in the world regarding the right to bear arms. That doesn't mean we should stand on our laurels though. Much like a highway, rights need upkeep too, to prevent the cracks, wear and potholes that will make that road something intimidating or seemingly impossible to traverse.

I really do feel bad for Europeans, since they don't know what they are missing. The UK knife laws are beyond ridiculous. Many of the nations there have a very bass-ackwards stance on self-defense as well....it's this combined with disarmament that makes me feel bad.

People have a fundamental right to life....self-defense is part of the mechanism to protect that right. Police aren't protection, they're "law enforcement"....this means if they get there in time, they may protect, but if not...they'll focus on what they can. That's another thing that saddens me, to see people allow their lives to sit in the hands of others....it's my life, your lives, to throw it at another's feet isn't cherishing what you have.

mordechaianiliewicz
September 27, 2009, 05:48 PM
Well, just a few thoughts. I believe that one can become so accostomed to chains that they enjoy them, and their feel. And they become warry of the others who aren't masters but don't have chains on themselves.

All I can say is unlearn your slave manual. And, America is different from Britain. A larger number of urbanites are pro-gun than the UK ever had, and most of our (considerably larger) rural and small town population is pro-gun. We don't win by saying "Oh, everyone is going to the city.... let's give in some to get some."

It's won by making sure people in the cities stay (or become) shooters themselves, in addition to rural folks. And, deciding what to do with our wave of new Americans. Those that stay here, regardless of where they came from, or what they look like, or believe, need to be brought into the fold gunwise as fast as we can.

Now, my heart goes out to all the Europeans here, not because of access to guns, but the fact that in most of your countries, the government believes it's the only sovreign with the power to defend with deadly force.

That being said, it seems like Luxembourg, and Switzerland are like relative oasis of gun ownership with the Swedes and Finns not far off.

mwstuntz
December 30, 2010, 09:53 AM
Bfore I continue I have to clarify that I love the US and the people. You just have a corrupt government that is bent on domination and control and responsible for the murder of thousands on 9/11. However that is a seperate subject.

Then again I despise the government and police in the UK. Glad I don't live there anyore.

Now you clearly have done no research before posting your message. You state that firearms are illegal in europe. Not the case in many areas.

now the UK I am very sorry to say has the worst gun law I know of. Bannning firearms has just increased the gun crime there. Over 40 percent within 2 years and that has rose.

Just the same as prohibition in the US. You ban something, you create a black market.

You also label Europeans as being very anti gun. How wrong you are. There is a small minority of EXTREMELY misinformed people like mothers against guns for example, who have no clue and like many, buy the BS that the media and goverment push out.

In response to your "I was disappointed by the amount of anti-Americanism held by most of the people I talked to, and how most of them believed their nation's were so much better and safer than ours, even though they clearly have less freedoms. Makes me glad I live in the greatest state in the greatest nation on earth." Are you yourself not being like the people you talk about?

You really are the epitome of the typical Yank arrogance. Fair enough being proud of your country, but to state it is the greatest nation on earth is just pure arogance.

You are a hypocrite squire and clearly lack the intelligence to do proper research before posting such drivel.

Apologies to other Americans on here. As I stated I love the US and yes I'd love to live there. Even though there are people like this, I don't see all of the US and it's people in this way.

allserene
December 30, 2010, 01:13 PM
I am a Citizen of the USA and a Citizen of Britain and I was an officer of a gun club in England and I am a member of a gun club in the USA.

I got my first British Firearms Certificate in 1964 and I served as a Police Officer in the England for 6 years.

That should give me a nice view of the situation with so much overview

When I got my first rifle in England, the Police came to my house and interviewed me and my parents. They then worked their way down the road and asked the neighbours about me. Who I associated with, did I get drunk, did I fight etc. I had to do a probationary period of some months at Ilkley Rifle Club and then eventually I got my certificate and was able to buy a rifle.

Nowadays it is much harder to satisfy the requirements. You need a certified gun cabinet, hard wood interior doors in the house, a dedicated phone line to the Police Station for your house alarm, approved locks etc etc etc

They are certainly making it hard, but if you have the money, you can get a gun quite easily. A bit like a Rolling Stone with a drug conviction being able to live in the USA.


Here in the US I wander into a gun shop (5 good size ones in this little town) and sometimes approval is withheld for 2 hours. Then I leave with an AR-15, 3 magazines of 30 rounds capacity and I leave the gun in my closet with my socks and underpants. I can walk around the supermarket with a gun in my pocket. Here, I buy ammo in Walmart like ice cream - pop it in my cart - in the UK I was the appointed club officer to buy ammo for the cluib.

I would be very loath to shoot anyone for a number of reasons but number one is that I would rather die than end up in an American jail for 450 years with no phone calls, no parole and sat looking at the wall. Punishment in Europe is deprivation of liberty. Here, prisoners are meant to suffer through the conditions, and not just loss of freedom.


As far as gun crime in the UK is concerned, or any where in Europe, it is tiny compared to the US and is usually confined to a few yardy boys from Jamaica shooting at each other over drug territory in some grisly inner city setting.
In 'nice' areas it is virtually unknown.

Burglary is much more common in the UK but it is rarely a threatening situation. I was burgled 5 times and they just ran away if disturbed. Amateur night. Not the same.

The US is like 50 different countries, each one divided into discrete cultures, and it's meaningless to say the US is like this or like that or Americans are like this or like that. There are huge differences of culture and outlook.
My wife is American and hates guns. She has just gone shopping and I have to clean my gun while she is out as she never wants to see one ever !


Apart from hand guns which are banned in the UK, guns are freely available in the UK if you are not a drunken maniac criminal and you have the money to satisfy the security requirements for your gun. People do not yearn to carry a gun to protect themselves because it really isn't necessary.

I lived in the UK for many decades and served in the Police Force for 6 years, and I never met a victim of gun crime.

My mother in law was robbed in Milwaukee with a gun at her head and it wasn't an unusual incident.

I think the UK is too tight on gun control and many areas of the US are too lax - something in between would be the best way to go.

Getting in a gun fight over a wallet is not smart and there are a lot of myths about that stuff in the US and a lot of myths about citizens attacking the US military in order to change the government - it's
just something to fantasize about and is fairly harmless

Ok I will clean my Glock now before she gets back from shopping ...

Cosmoline
December 30, 2010, 01:34 PM
Congrats on Citizenship!

Option A would be nice but in reality, the urbanization of the US and the change in demographics means it's a losing tactic.

Allserene, this is the logic I've heard for a long time now. It was the logic behind a whole series of compromises with the antis all the way back to the 1960's. But something really remarkable has happened in spite of this conventional wisdom. As we've become more urbanized and hunt less, we are *NOT* giving up the firearms. A quiet revolution in concealed carry rights flipped those laws on their heads, overturning 100 years of status quo in precisely the opposite direction you would have predicted. We haven't been losing ground, we've been winning it at all levels from the CCW permits to the US Supreme Court. Congress hasn't been able to pass any major gun control legislation since Clinton, and wouldn't touch the issue even with Obama in power and D's in charge of the hill.

Today, the only places in the US with serious gun control are a minority of states and cities. And a quick review of those states and cities should be enough to disabuse any notion that they herald some bold new direction in policy. They're tired old east coast mob havens and rust belt corruption pits.

In other words, keep the faith and don't assume that the antis have antis must be compromised with.

Beyond this, remember also that the sort of middle ground you're talking about with additional restrictions on ownership ends up creating havens for criminals, not lowering crime. As you note this is a nation of 50 sovereign states. Clamping down in DC means nothing to a criminal who can buy anywhere else and come back into town. Milwaukee Wisconsin, BTW, has an "in between" system of gun laws precisely as you advocate. CCW is prohibited flat-out, there's a 48 hour waiting period for handguns and while you can carry open you risk police harassment and the weapon must be unloaded. What does that get you? A criminal confident you will not be able to do squat.

Personally I think the best government involvement comes from those governments which embrace the reality and seek to assist gun owners rather than attack us. State gun ranges, state gun safety programs, and state training are all excellent ideas. Not coupled with gun control as a "compromise," but offered in the public spirit to help make us better shots and safer.

it's just something to fantasize about and is fairly harmless

While I agree that the anti-Obama table thumping is the fantasy of a deluded minority, do not underestimate what 200 million + small arms means. Obama has not been an anti-gun president, and the AWB didn't even get revived. If things had been different, the reaction would not have been limited to a few on the hard right. There is nothing "fairly harmless" or "mostly harmless" about the US. It's a dangerous country full of dangerous people. It is not the UK. I know a meek fellow here, who runs a low rent motel. He's a vegetarian 7th Day Adventist who wouldn't hurt a fly. But he put six slugs into a would-be robber a few years back. So don't assume that because people put up with the lawn height requirements of the community counsel that they would tolerate a federal mandate to "hand them in."

Adair
December 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
Here is another way to look at "unruly Americans with too many guns".

The World's Largest Army: America's Hunters?
by Jeffry Watts

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great. There were over 600,000 hunters. Allow me to restate that number. Over the last two months, the eighth largest army in the world - more men under arms than Iran; more than France and Germany combined - deployed to the woods of a single American state to help keep the deer menace at bay.

But that pales in comparison to the 750,000 who are in the woods of Pennsylvania this week.

Michigan 's 700,000 hunters have now returned home.

Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia, and it is literally the case that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world. America will forever be safe from foreign invasion of troops with that kind of home-grown firepower.

Hunting - it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security!

Adair
December 30, 2010, 01:48 PM
And yet another...

In WWII, Japan's highest ranking naval officer was Isoruku Yamamoto. Although he was Japanese, and his loyalties were unquestionably with The Empire, he studied for many years in America, graduating from Harvard University. There is an oft-repeated (and sometimes disputed) quote attributed to him regarding the possibility of any nation taking a war to American soil:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."


How many times has Europe been destroyed and rebuilt? America?

Panzercat
December 30, 2010, 01:53 PM
Here it is way safer than in the US. I walk any street at any time, without having the need to carry a gun.

You seem to misunderstand. Our ability to carry is a right born out of governmental paranoia, not the "need" to carry because bullets are just flyin. It's also a justifiable paranoia as time and time again, the first move to eliminate resistance to a totalitarian state is to remove the tools of resitance. Your neighbors in Germany come to mind. Japan likewise removed the individual's ability to bear arms and placed them in the hands of a specific government sanctioned few... before turning completely militaristic and giving the samurai the right to slay lesser caste at will. In fact, the entire Constitution of the United States is a document of paranoia to that same end.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that an armed, free populous is the best insurance a neighboring country can have against that state's corruption. Yes, it creates other issues, but I assure you I can walk down to Sears without a gun or fear for my life if I so choose.

tuckerdog1
December 30, 2010, 02:09 PM
At least the chick running the place was hot though....in a third world, malnourished, vampire kinda way.



Laughing so hard tears are coming out the corner of my eyes. Wish you had a pic to post.

Did you get a chance to talk with her about the guns they had? If so, did she know her stuff?

Tuckerdog1

allserene
December 30, 2010, 02:42 PM
A rifle behind every blade of grass doesn't mean much to a nuclear opponent. Israel with it's 7 million population and nuclear arsenal would quite willingly attack Iran with nuclear weapons whether every Iranian had an AR-15 or not. The rifle behind every blade of grass is valid for the 1930's against an opponent 3 times as big and where rifles were the determinant. Rifles don't do it nowadays. Helicopters and drones and satellites and IBM's are more like it.

Afghans have always been armed to the teeth - much more so than even the Americans, and yet they are invaded every few years by powers like Britain and the USSR and the USA etc etc - so having a lot of guns per head of population is no safeguard and just means your enemies will bring bigger guns.

That is the situation in the UK where the chance of being robbed at gun point is infinitesimal. If the victim is not likely to have a gun and the penalty for carrying one is big, the criminals quite rightly conclude there is no point in carrying one. The Police have always refused to be armed as they know it will cause the criminals to be armed.

S.W.G.
December 30, 2010, 04:26 PM
I daresay the selection we have is even larger than in any American shop


Just taking a shot in the dark, do private citizens in Luxembourg have access to machine guns?

I was reading on another forum where an individual from Switzerland had quite an extensive collection, and I started wondering just how many countries out there allow MG's.

The four that come to mind for me are the U.S., the Phillipines, Finland, and, of course, Switzerland.

merlinfire
December 30, 2010, 04:41 PM
The Police have always refused to be armed as they know it will cause the criminals to be armed.

Wait, so if we all just disarm then the criminals will all throw their guns away? Sounds like a plan!


You're assuming that criminals are using cold, hard logic. Unfortunately, many of them are crackheads.

When's the last time a war has been ended by nuclear weapons? When's the last time it was won by ICBM's or by drones, even helicopters? Until a man holding a gun stands on the ground and holds it, it all is so much underutilized hardware.

merlinfire
December 30, 2010, 04:45 PM
America the beautiful, America the free. I agree. But this has turned into a pissing contest, imo.

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