[vinflouen]

From Senator Madden's office.
Everyone should attend and express how this bill is a sham, and how we should talk about permit reform. See Below...

Below please find the information for the One Gun A Month Public Hearing:

September 24, 2009
11:00am
State House Committee Room 4

The hearing is open to anyone, but if you are intersted in testifying, below please find the information for Sobande Afolabi in Governor Corzine's Counsel office. Please call her to give your name so it could be added to the list to testify.
Sobande Afolabi (609 777-2462)

Jenna Lihvarcik
Legislative Aide
4th Legislative District
Senator Madden, Asm. Moriarty & Asw. Love
129 Johnson Rd., Suite 1
Turnersville, NJ 08012
856-232-6700

[Smity]

Thank you, vinflouen.

You are right. This is one of those critical moments. I will be there.

I called the State House and Committee Room 4 only holds 150 people. Therefore, it is critical that we get there early and fill that room with as many pro-Second Amendment folks as possible.

Thanks for the heads up!

Smity

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I am going to try my best to make it there, as gun owners we all should do our best to show up in strength and explain to our legislators why our current laws do nothing but keep guns from honest, law abiding citizens. The garden state deserves to be a safer place than that.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

81,000+ members on this site and only two of them from NJ that bothered to reply to this important hearing.

This is why we are losing our gun rights in the blue states, and soon the others. It's easy to vilify some politician, or come on the internet and complain about it, but it's WE THE PEOPLE and our apathy which is truly at fault for our loss of rights.

[Smity]

Dark Knight,
Don't worry, they will come around. It just needs to sink in a bit. After bad laws are passed, we all wish we had an opportunity to participate in the discussion. This is the only time, that I am aware of, that we have been given the opportunity to do so in NJ. I have to believe that once the folks have realized that, they will show up in droves. Not only that, but can you imagine what the testimony is going to be like?! How could anyone miss this? It's a story that I will enjoy telling for a long time.

Smity

[Yo Mama]

81,000+ members on this site and only two of them from NJ that bothered to reply to this important hearing.

This is why we are losing our gun rights in the blue states, and soon the others. It's easy to vilify some politician, or come on the internet and complain about it, but it's WE THE PEOPLE and our apathy which is truly at fault for our loss of rights.

Maybe they just didn't want to reply. I don't think you'll win friends by slapping us in the face.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Is a slap in the face bad if that's what is needed? I don't do it out of malice. But if the Garden State don't wake up soon, we will be worse off than California. Now is the time for action. Especially with an election this fall.

[Yo Mama]

IMO it's not a bad thing to try to wake people up, but don't assume just because you don't have 50 replies that your message didn't go where needed.

Post on all forums you belong to, I'm sure there is a local forum for NJ gun rights that you should search for also.

Join tea parties and demonstrations on this issue also. I'm hopeful recently based on events including the demonstrations country wide and in D.C. that you will come out on top on this one, but you need to talk to people you know and get them voting for people who serve us and not legislate our rights away.

[AJChenMPH]

There's a reason I'm moving to PA...

Actually, I'd hit this if it weren't for the fact that Uncle Sam is paying me to work the G-20 Summit in Pittsburgh that week...

[Smity]

Just in case there are some NJ residents following this thread.

This is the list of those "invited" to testify in front of the TF.

Scott L. Bach, Esq., National Rifle Association
Frank Caso -- Owner of Caso's Gun-A-Rama Inc in Jersey City, NJ
Kathy Chatterton -- National Champion, 2009 Standard Pistol
Thomas Comey, Police Chief, Jersey City Police Department -- Stated that pump action shotguns are assault weapons
Craig Dear -- unknown
Stan Gurski, New Jersey Arms Collectors
Jerramiah T. Healy, Mayor, Jersey City -- supports OGAM and other gun control
Andrew Jennison, National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action
Carol Katona, Citizen’s Rifle & Revolver Club
David Lang -- ANJRPC -- Director, International Pistol
Dale Leddon -- unknown
Carl Leisinger -- expert witness in firearms and ballistics -- high power shooter
Jake McGuigan, National Shooting Sports Foundation
Evan F. Nappen, Esq. -- pro gun attorney
Gary Needleman, Esq. -- pro gun attorney
Butch Sacco, New Jersey Retail Dealers Association
George Shivery, Jr., Mullica Rife and Pistol Club, Mayor, Gibbstown
Brian Sisz -- Owner of the Sportmen's Center, Bordentown, NJ
Mitchell Sklar, New Jersey Association of Chiefs of Police (position on the issue unknown)
Ed Tarpy, New Jersey Retail Dealers Association
Don A. Toenshoff -- President, Central Jersey Rifle & Pistol Club
Robert L. Viden, Association of New Jersey Firearms Retailers

It is very important that anyone who can attend does so to support the folks that are testifying on our behalf.

If anyone knows anything about those that I listed as unknown, please let us know who they are and their position of the issue. Thanks!

Smity

[vinflouen]

I think we should all go empty holster.
Lets get them used to it.

[vinflouen]

We should be talking about permit reform in NJ. If they are going to give me one gun a month, then actually allow me to purchase one gun a month. The permit system in NJ is a total sham, and they know they could automate it, or go through the FBI check like everyone else in the USA.

[Martyk]

Thank you for the post and information.

[9mm+]

I don't live in NJ, but I believe in RKBA for all states, all of the time. If there's anything a non-resident like myself can do for this complete sham of a proposal, please PM me.

Once NJ becomes like CA, there's no turning back...it's time to stop this one in its track.

[chuckusaret]

Sounds to me like NJ is going the same route as California. I have also been researching NJ's no JHP laws disallowing there use for SD/HD but have found that their police organizations are allowed to use them. Bad for civilian use but good for police use? Another odd thing is that you can purchase them for hunting and target practice only. I have never used a pistol for hunting nor have I ever used JHP's for target practice.:uhoh:

[Smity]

Thanks for the support. I found this on one of the other sites:

For those unable to attend but still wishing to provide comments on the topic, please send a short, polite email to:

sallye.giordano@gov.state.nj.us

Sallye (yes, that is the correct spelling) is in the State House counsel's office and will make sure your comments get to the Handgun Task Force.


The State House Counsel's office is the Gov's Counsel's office. I talk to Sallye from time to time when I submit OPRA requests. She is very helpful.

You don't have to be from NJ to weigh in. All of the NJ laws apply to anyone who drives into or through NJ. An example of an email is:

I am unable to attend the Handgun Task Force meeting, but would like to know if the state of NJ has any intention of modifying its current conceal carry permit status / procedures.

NJ is marked as a may issue state, but I have never heard of anyone actually getting a carry permit, especially for self defense or 2nd Amendment purposes. The states bordering NJ, currently do issue permits to residents and PA issues to non-residents. Being a resident of a state that theoretically issues permits I can not get a permit from PA without first receiving a NJ permit. The current NJ laws / regulations are not only impacting residents while in NJ, they are also impacting residents when traveling outside of the state.


Additionally I would like to understand why the state is focusing so much on “gun control”, versus what the issues really are which are crime, the apprehension, prosecution and detention of criminals. Laws as imposed by the state impact law abiding citizens and not criminals. Instead of imposing stronger restrictions on us law abiding citizens why not enforce the laws and go after those breaking the law. Stop treating law abiding, peaceful citizens as criminals.


Thank you for your time,
--

Smity

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Those of us who will be attending or sending E-mails should come up with a list of questions to ask both the pro gun and anti gun sides. We should word our questions so that they are very specific and thus hard to simply pay lip service to, and that they prompt a lot of thought and discussion in the response. We should also keep in mind the social climate in NJ and refrain from asking something that sounds like it came from Alex Jones or Glenn Beck, since that will only hurt our cause in the garden state.

Here are a few I have come up with, please feel free to add and discuss.

For the Anti-Gun Side:
1. How are New Jersey's firearms laws working to keep guns from criminals, keep the communities safe and protect the citizens? Could you please provide specific data as to how it has improved our safety?

2. It currently takes much longer than one month to obtain a permit to purchase a handgun. The average for most towns is roughly twelve weeks, with some cities being as long as nearly a year in some cases. If the wait time is so long already, why introduce a one gun a month law?

3. Are there any plans to streamline the current permit system to efficiently and effectively simply and speed up the process for law abiding firearms owners to obtain their permits?

[Smity]

Dark Knight, That's a very good idea. I created this list from various posts from multiple sights. It's a start...

1. Definition of a firearm. Why are people being sent to prison for possessing a daisy bb gun? There is proposed legislation to fix this.
2. Redundancy in applying for permits. Fix with A3744
3. Why doesn’t NJ complete the permitting process in the time allowed by law?
4. Must have “shall issue.” Fix with S193/A1282
5. Definition of an assault weapon. Rifles are either automatic or semi-automatic. No aesthetic feature (i.e. bayonet lug, flash suppressor, pistol grip) makes them more or less lethal. Magazine capacity restrictions are only followed by law-abiding citizens. Citizens have the right and responsibility to become proficient with military style weapons in preparation to be called into service.
6. No distinction made between a law-abiding citizen and a criminal in the law.
7. OGAM exemptions.
8. .50 cal ban


Smity

[maksim]

http://www.njgunforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2785

and

event thread

http://www.njgunforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2875&start=0

empty holster sounds like a great idea.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

1. Definition of a firearm. Why are people being sent to prison for possessing a daisy bb gun? There is proposed legislation to fix this.
2. Redundancy in applying for permits. Fix with A3744
3. Why doesn’t NJ complete the permitting process in the time allowed by law?
4. Must have “shall issue.” Fix with S193/A1282
5. Definition of an assault weapon. Rifles are either automatic or semi-automatic. No aesthetic feature (i.e. bayonet lug, flash suppressor, pistol grip) makes them more or less lethal. Magazine capacity restrictions are only followed by law-abiding citizens. Citizens have the right and responsibility to become proficient with military style weapons in preparation to be called into service.
6. No distinction made between a law-abiding citizen and a criminal in the law.
7. OGAM exemptions.
8. .50 cal ban

Some good ideas, heres a few of my suggestions as to your points:

1. Why does the state of New Jersey feel that a BB gun or sling shot pose the same threat as a firearm and treat them the same? (examples of terminal ballistics of a BB gun vs. a 30-06 would be great here)

3. The permit process states that the applicant will receive their answer in X days, why is it that only a handful of towns complete the application process as specified by law? How does the state plan to correct this?

6. Citizens of the Garden State deserve the right to defend themselves, why does the law make no distinction between a homeowner defending themself and a criminal?

I don't think it's time to challenge the state's "assault weapons" ban yet. First, we need to work on bringing the permit process into a reasonable time frame, establishing some sort of self defense law, and once people have a somewhat reasonable ability to access and learn about guns and their lawful use they would be able to see what garbage the "assault weapons" ban is. Targeting it too early just gives people like Mr. Healy an excuse to say "See, they want to carry rapid fire semi automatic AK-47 assault rifles! Our streets will no longer be safe!"

[vinflouen]

these are great ideas.
I say empty holster

[SpecialKalltheway]

I will be voicing my concerns via the internet with an e-mail since I am still in Colorado, but will be moving to New Jersey in just over a year.

Can I suggest that someone that is going to be there bring a copy of the NJ State Constitution to remind those there of the rules you all should be playing with. Reading the 1st paragraph of the 1st article should do it
"1. All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness."

[NJCSD]

Hello all,
This an updated list and NJCSD is 2nd on the list to speak after Scott L.Bach(NRA).We have some heavy hitters attending.
I encourage any that can make it, do so.I would also ask all that attend to also dress accordingly.This is not the venue for camo and open holsters.
As much as we would like to.:cuss:
Thank you High Road members for your dedication to our effort in NJ.

Post#9
http://www.njcsd.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3405

[AJChenMPH]

Well, it's the 25th. How'd it go?

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Well, the Star Ledger just paid a bunch of lip service and made the misleading statement that "it doesn't affect licensed gun collectors"

TRENTON -- Gov. Jon Corzine's firearms task force assembled in the Statehouse today to hear testimony from residents concerned about the state's new law limiting handgun purchases to one a month.

Gun collectors and advocates have said the law, signed last month, will unfairly restrict law-abiding citizens' constitutional rights. Proponents pushed the bill as a way to slow the flow of guns to criminals and gang members.

"The law has been vetted and signed," said Sen. Fred Madden (D-Gloucester), vice chair for the task force. "Today we're taking testimony to measure the impact, positive or negative."

At least 40 people gathered to speak before the nine-member task force today. Jake McGuigan, government relations director for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, is concerned the law will hurt small retail stores.

Although there is an exception for licensed gun dealers, New Jersey does not classify manufacturers or wholesale distributors as licensed dealers, he said.

"You're going to be shutting down small retailers and small dealers in the state," McGuigan said. "This is law is going after law-abiding citizens and retailers."

Lateif Dickerson attended the hearing with his son, Trevor Stevens. Both are firearms instructors in Jersey City.

Dickerson, wearing a yellow long-sleeved T-shirt with the words "New Jersey Firearms Academy," said the new law is only "feel-good legislation that won't have an impact on crime."

"That's the wrong reason to make laws," he said. "I'd like to see it repealed."

New Jersey was the fourth state to approve such legislation, joining California, Maryland and Virginia.

The law, which takes effect on Jan. 1, prohibits gun sellers from "knowingly delivering" more than one gun during a 30-day period. It exempts the transfers of guns between licensed firearms collectors.

[vinflouen]

It went the way things relating to the second amendment in NJ go, "Who Gives A ****"
Its so far out of whack here that until they get out the flood of illegal gangsters, and the gangsta breeders who fill the streets every 10 years with children who have no guidance and make our legislators dole out our money and our rights to support that lifestyle, we will never be able to seperate the legal gun owner argument from the illegal gun criminal.
Guns aside, NJ is fast becoming a very rich/very poor persons state. Until that is addressed, the focus is going to be on our urban issues, unfortunately all of the focus on urban issues has mystified our politicians into thinking all guns are bad.
The big donut chief of police of Jersey City stated after those cops were shot, he felt a pump shotgun is an assault weapon. The same pump shotgun that the state of NJ gives me permission to carry when I hunt our public lands, this idiot is calling an assault weapon. Corzine, our gov, thinks all concealed permit holders are potential criminals.
Part of the issue here is cultural, we have lots of farmland, and lots of ghetto.
My shotgun is not a big deal in warren county, but in hudson county I would be slung up on the public square.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Part of the issue here is cultural, we have lots of farmland, and lots of ghetto.

I have to say, you are very correct.

I lived my entire life in Union County, and virtually everywhere I go is either there, or Essex/Middlesex/Passaic/Hudson county. Only until very recently have I traveled to Cumberland, Warren, Atlantic, Monmouth and Ocean, and i was very surprised to see just how rural even parts of the most densely populated state in the country can be. Heck, I saw a guy with a Confederate flag sticker on his pickup truck in Lakewood recently! Try that in Essex county and you won't make it down the street alive. This state really isn't the liberal / ghetto wasteland it is perceived as, like you said.

I agree that exposing people from the NE part of the state to the rest of it could do wonders for our cause.

[barry960]

How creepy that all the historical Patriotic cities are where we have to fight the hardest again now. Boston is where it seems like the most submissive subjects of tyranny on Earth now mope. Do Trentonites even know the irony, of how Washington turned around a failing revolution on your very soil? If these people had a time machine, I think they'd murder a baby Washington in his crib. Is there a stronger word than loathe? Actual full enemies are less vile to me than the fifth column type within.

[Demitrios]

I'm pretty demoralized, I live in Bergen county. I remember getting invited to a friend of my co-workers apartment and asking to see her Glock. Me having handled firearms for the better part of my life (I'm 28 so for me it's 21 years) handled the gun safely while the other were doing deplorable things, like waving the pistol around and even putting it to her head and pulling the trigger. Oh yeah, real funny, then they had the nerve to tell me I was scary. My answer was, "Oh I'm the scary one? You guys are waving the fu**ing thing around like a toy and doing stupid sh** and you're judging me?" Were my words eloquent? No. Did it make a dent to help fight the "good fight"? No. But it did wake me up to how ignorant people really are when it comes to firearms. I don't blame them, I blame us. We NEED to get out there, expose and educate people with little to no access/information about firearms. Hell my girlfriend, who's extremely anti-gun, went shooting with me and turned out to be an AMAZING (better than me and I've been shooting pistols for years) marksmen. If anyone has an answer to this question I'd love to hear it. How do we assemble and educate? Anyone with the, "no one's going to listen" or, "it's a lost cause" answer please don't comment, we need to really put our heads together, rally and do something because this situation isn't getting real, IT IS REAL.

[vinflouen]

Barry960 as I walk down the same street Washington and his troops used on their retreat, as I pass by the Baylor Massacre site (where brits killed american soldiers) and realize that my state is the center of the formation of our nation.
Its is a shame that now it has been reduced to some memories. We still have alot of old homesites from the 1700's, yet NJ residents are treated like subjects. You are absolutely right.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Demitrios I feel your pain man. I work with a woman who constantly told me shes a gun owner. One day I decided to talk to her about it. Turns out she thinks I'm a nutjob for having a small collection, oh but it's OK that she hasn't cleaned her pistol ever in about 10 years of owning it, and her way of holding it is SIDEWAYS LIKE A RAP VIDEO.

As for your question, I think the battle at this point is to redefine the word gun.

People in our area are mainly "minorities" now. African americans who have been disarmed and told guns are bad for the last 150 years. Hispanic and asian immigrants that come from countries where the only people with guns are marxists or drug lords. They live in communities like Newark, Camden, etc. where the only people with guns are criminals. Combine that with the growing liberal culture of over-educated whites in SmartCars. Doesn't help that all mass media villifies guns here too. The battle now is to introduce people to LEGAL, RESPONSIBLE gun ownership here. To show them someone besides a cop or thug can have a gun and its OK.

It's funny to talk with people who think it's normal for a cop to have a gun, it's normal for a thug to have one. But to suggest that a normal person own and shoot guns for fun and personal protection is some crazy, sadistic idea. We need to work to introduce people to legal, responsible gun ownership, and that probably means having public rallies and such to educate people before our state goes worse than CA (and with another term of Corzine, it will)