[jordan1948]

Alright I know there's a lot of controversy over whether or not a .223 round is adquet for whit-tail deer or not. Well this season I'm planning on using my Mini-14 as I might be taking shots over 50 yards which is what I'm used to when using my Winchester .44mag. The ammo I plan on using is Federal JHP. So basically I'd like some comments on whether or not this round is capable of taking deer? I know shot placement is key with most hunting but if I get a lung instead of heart shot I'd like to know the deer is still gonna go down quickly.

[Rembrandt]

For the smaller bodied Southern deer it would probably work.....for the bigger Northern bucks, too small.

[oneounceload]

The JHP is not intended for deer-size game - find a better bullet. I believe that TN limits mag capacity as well, correct?

[slodsm]

I don't think I would use a standard JHP if I were going to use a .223 for deer. I would try the federal fusion 62gr soft tip rounds. I've never shot deer with them but have taken mature boars with single well placed shots.

[jimmyraythomason]

I believe a 62-64 gr. soft point to be a better choice.

[DIM]

Another one, I just saw same post week ago… So here we go yes you can shoot deer with 223, but be prepared to put it out of its misery... Anyway there are many same posts but all of them got locked by admin, guess what will happen to this one…

Here is another one it is still open, all you need to know about 223 and deer

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=472924&highlight=40+mm

[jordan1948]

I live in the south so thats fine.
No mag capacity limit but I only plan on taking the 5rder anyways.
62gr won't have any accuracy out of my barrel so that's out.
So would JSP be better?

[kdstrick]

Shot placement is CRITICAL with a .223. Head or neck shot works great. If you make a body shot, I hope you have a good dog to track it, or you will probably lose it.

Do not use a hollow point on deer. If it hits bone it may shatter and fragment, not allowing it to penetrate and wounding the deer. I think it is irresponsible and unethical.

[mongo4567]

I have had very good luck with the Remington 55 grain soft points on three different deer; they expand well and stay together. They also shoot very well in my CZ 527 with its high twist rate. Whatever you choose, make sure and research the specific bullet. A lot of the match hollowpoints won't expand properly or stay together.


I will add that all three were shot behind the shoulder and none of the them went more than 70 yards.

[blackops]

These 223 for deer post end up getting closed pretty quick lol, along with overkill threads etc, but I'm not going to say a 223 can't work. It wouldn't be MY choice, but it will work. Honestly, IMO even if a certain bullet isn't designed for hunting, it doesn't matter IMO. Deer are thin skinned and placement is going to matter more than type of bullet. Although some bullets ARE going to be better than others for hunting. I would take what ever bullet you are most accurate with. Either way your dealing with a smaller, lighter, bullet as a whole, and penetration isn't going to be the issue because of the high velocity. Your shot placement is going to be critical, but even more so with a 223. Keep your shot inside 100yds, clip some vitals, tag em, and bag em.

[TehK1w1]

A 223 should work fine, with a couple caveats.
1-hit it in the right spot (always important, but especially with small calibers
2-bullet construction- use a good soft point bullet. No varmint rounds, fmjs, or hollowpoints.

[Flintknapper]

Agree with Kiwi, ^^^^^^^^

Broadside shots, precise bullet placement, no HP's or FMJ's (use a good softpoint).

Even then...be prepared for a tracking job.

I started my Daughter at age 9 with a .223, she took several deer with it (all perfect shots). But, we NEVER found a deer in less than 100 yds.

Not a problem for me (bowhunter for 40 yrs so I'm used to tracking), but it might present a problem for some folks.

We moved her up to a .243 and things got much better, then moved her up again to a 7mm-08 and everything drops right there.

A .223 is "capable" of killing deer, no question about it, but it is marginal in terms of effectiveness IMO. Too, the mini-14 is not noted for it's accuracy, so be mindful of yardage and shot placement.

Good luck Sir,

Flint.

[Zak Smith]

If I were to attempt this, I would use the 70gr TSX. I have shot it into media and its performance looked great.

[R.W.Dale]

I live in the south so thats fine.
No mag capacity limit but I only plan on taking the 5rder anyways.
62gr won't have any accuracy out of my barrel so that's out.
So would JSP be better?

You need to buy some 64grn Winchester powerpoints, and yes they will stabilize in your bbl, or at least as much accuracy as a mini will provide.

[dogrunner]

If you shoot well and can carefully pick your shots it'l work.....but it IS awfully light, even for small southern deer.

I personally witnessed a good buck, being run with dogs, hit five times with .223's.............three rounds on one side of him, two on the other, all were what I'd call kill shots on the spot with a larger caliber yet that buck ran way more than a quarter mile before he dropped.

If the deer's not being stressed then likely you are OK....personally I'd pass up any but an absolutely sure brain or neck shot.

[Sunray]

"...Federal JHP..." Which one? A regular 50 or 55 grain HP is a varmint bullet and is totally unsuitable for deer sized game. They're made to expand rapidly upon impact with little penetration. Deer sized game requires penetration with controlled expansion.
If you insist on using an inherently inaccurate rifle, your bullet choice is absolutely essential. Federal loads a 60 grain Nolser Partition, but your Mini-14 isn't rifled for heavy bullets. Personally, I wouldn't ever think about using a .223 or Mini-14 for deer. Even though it's legal up here too.

[scythefwd]

Is there a diameter restriction? He in VA, we can't using anything smaller than a .23. Might wanna verify that before you go out. If it's legal, I'd second the neck shot if you feel confident doing it.

[Sav .250]

If it`s "legal" where you hunt then why not ?

[bushfox25]

You may want to check but i think TN does have a limit on mag capacity. A .223 will do ok on our TN sized deer but like others have said don't use a JHP.

[jordan1948]

No mag limit.
Any centerfire cartridge is legal. (I looked it up)
I've changed my mind and decided to go with either 64grn Winchester powerpoints or Remington softpoints. My Mini groups around 1.5" at 100yds (last time I shot it). Thanks for all the imput guys and feel free to keep commenting especially with tips :)

[freakshow10mm]

The 64gr Power Point is a great deer bullet. I've killed plenty of deer with them.

[moooose102]

WHAT, THIS THREAD AGAIN! my opinion is that a .223 has no place for deer hunting. not that it can not kill a deer, my concern is how HUMANELY it can, or can not do its job. i HATE to see any animal SUFFER! i am sure you could kill a deer with a shot to the eye with a pelet gun also, but how long would it suffer before it died of infection or lead poisoning? i know a 223 has much more power than a pelet gun. and if you are an excellent shot, AND everything goes right, you could drt a deer. but what if it does not go so well? the chances of everything going perfect is not so great. that is why i dont think the 223 is the right cartridge for deer. but, you are the one pulling the trigger. if things do not go so good, how far are you willing to track it?

[schnarrgj]

What my concern is that if you need to ask if the .223 will work, you should not be using the round. I have used the round with good results. But I know when it can and cannot be used. I will let the deer walk if everything is not just right. Deciding to use a JHP again raises concern about the level of experience of the hunter. To be effective, it needs to be used by someone who is very experienced in not only shooting, but hunting. Deer hunting is a LOT more than shooting. Deer do not act according to a script. It will kill a deer. You will be much better served by using a larger round. To your credit, you asked the question. This shows your desire to learn and do what is right.

[hardluk1]

You have a winchester rifle in a 44mag?? Buy some hotter heavier ammo from bufflo bore and shoot out to 125 to 150 yards with no problem maybe even farther deppending on how well your lever gun shoots. Remember elmer keith killed lots of game at longer distance with a revolver and loads not as hot as out today. 223 like others said will kill but you and your rifle have to be up to better shot placement and besure its legal where you are. No all states allow 22cal anything for deer.

[Byron]

For the reloader, the 70 grain Speer semi spitzer is a good choice. When I lived in the th NGA mountains,it was poplar and always good results. Byron

[Art Eatman]

With respect to the accuracy comment in Post #7: Group size for five shots is not important. Three shots might be, but the most important part of the deal is whether or not the first shot from a cold barrel goes where expected.

[Arkel23]

For the smaller bodied Southern deer it would probably work No, it's not adequate for any deer. Do you hunt in the South Rembrandt?

[Rembrandt]

I have hunted in the south years ago....was somewhat surprised how small the deer were. Nearly all of my hunting is upper midwest, we frequently see 300-400lb corn fed deer.

[natman]

.223 for deer
Alright I know there's a lot of controversy over whether or not a .223 round is adquet for whit-tail deer or not. Well this season I'm planning on using my Mini-14 as I might be taking shots over 50 yards which is what I'm used to when using my Winchester .44mag. The ammo I plan on using is Federal JHP. So basically I'd like some comments on whether or not this round is capable of taking deer? I know shot placement is key with most hunting but if I get a lung instead of heart shot I'd like to know the deer is still gonna go down quickly.

Probably not.

I wonder where you get the 50 yard limit for your 44 mag? From a rifle a 44 mag is good out to a solid 100 yards. Past that it is difficult to hit because the 44 bullets are about as aerodynamic as tuna cans and trajectory gets very curved. Shooting heavier bullets from Buffalo Bore will make this problem worse, not better and you certainly do not need a bullet heavier than 240 grains for deer.

What you should use in your 44 for max range is these (https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=e607d305797481d8c1ee816c2721165f&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=705f97c8699d0bf887f31db14bef25c8).

Within 100 yards you are far better off with your 44 than any 223, and while the 223 will hit them farther away it won't be especially effective.

So if you're going to hunt within 100 yards use your 44 rifle. If you want to hunt beyond 100 yards it's time to buy a real deer rifle like a 7mm-08 or similar.

[freakshow10mm]

No, it's not adequate for any deer.
Tell that to the two dozen Michigan deer I killed. Tell them they were killed with an inferior cartridge. The smallest deer was 188 pounds dressed.

[jimmyraythomason]

Undoubtedly those that refer to Southern deer as being small MUST be hunting where the deer are overpopulated and underfed. Please,somebody, tell me what you consider to be a big deer that isn't found in the Southern states.

[freakshow10mm]

Body weight at least 200 pounds. Those Southern deer weighing in at 130lbs are a joke.

[jimmyraythomason]

Freakshow10mm,just so you know. Mature Alabama whitetail weighing more than 150 lbs. are common. Those 130lb deer you are talking about are taken from overhunted public land where ANY buck with antlers visible above the hair line is fair game. 200lb+ deer routinely come from private land and leases. One particular Alabama buck(taken in Blount county) by a personal friend of mine,weighed(in the round) 360lbs on a certified scale. It's nose measured 4'' across. He told me he didn't know how big it was when he shot it because it was in a bachelor group of 5 that all looked the same. The 8pt rack wasn't spectacular so he didn't report it to the state. It is now mandatory to report bucks taken and their weight to the state conservation department.

[freakshow10mm]

200lb deer up here is a small deer for the area. This is both on private land and public land. Wild, free ranging deer not grown domesticated pets with feeders and food plots.

[jordan1948]

I wonder where you get the 50 yard limit for your 44 mag? From a rifle a 44 mag is good out to a solid 100 yards. Past that it is difficult to hit because the 44 bullets are about as aerodynamic as tuna cans and trajectory gets very curved. Shooting heavier bullets from Buffalo Bore will make this problem worse, not better and you certainly do not need a bullet heavier than 240 grains for deer. I'm an optics guy and I don't have a scope on my .44. I don't doubt that it is capable up to 125 with the right load but if all I can see is a "speck" through my irons I think that's taking more of a chance at shot placement than using the .223. I could use my Remington 710 .30-06 but I've yet to find a load it likes so shots are for the most part unpredictable.

[blackops]

One particular Alabama buck(taken in Blount county) by a personal friend of mine,weighed(in the round) 360lbs on a certified scale. It's nose measured 4'' across.

That's honestly a tough one to believe (not saying it isn't true).

[jimmyraythomason]

Yes I know. I didn't believe it either when my friend's brother first told me about it. I changed my mind after talking directly to the hunter (and seeing the mounted head) that bagged it and learning where it was weighed and by whom.

[R.W.Dale]

Yes I know. I didn't believe it either when my friend's brother first told me about it. I changed my mind after talking directly to the hunter (and seeing the mounted head) that bagged it and learning where it was weighed and by whom.

was this deer allowed to run ANYWHERE or was it kept penned up with the other "cows" in a feed lot:rolleyes:


Here in Arkansas a free range deer that dressed out over 150 would be considered HUGE.


interesting reading
Montana's deer body-weight record whitetail weighed 275 pounds, according to Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. The record dressed mule deer was 340.

The heaviest 4.5-year-old-plus whitetail from Texas' Hill Country from 1954 through 1999 weighed just 141 pounds and was taken in 1994.

The heaviest Nebraska whitetail on record was 287 pounds field dressed (about 355 pounds live weight).

The biggest whitetail from New York state weighed 286 pounds field-dressed.

Georgia - which surprised me - had a record field-dressed buck of 355, but then I read further and found out this was the offspring of stock imported from Wisconsin by a hunt club there.

The world record for years weighed 354 pounds and was taken in upper Michigan.

Maine had a monster whitetail that field-dressed at 355 pounds.

There were old reports of a 386-pound dressed whitetail out of Wisconsin taken in 1924, but the weighing wasn't officially witnessed.

Another big Wisconsin buck was taken in 1941 and weighed 371 pounds, but it also wasn't officially witnessed.

[jimmyraythomason]

It was definitely free range and was killed close to 20 years ago. It helps to realize that honeysuckle,greenbrier and a host of wild foods remain green year round here. A good mast year produces so many acorns it sounds like rain when they drop. Dogwood trees are in abundance as are crab apples,wild muscadines and LOTS of persimmons. Lack of food is "usually" not a concern. In fact there was such an abundance of wild foods this past season that our green fields went "almost" untouched. Granted,this is not a typical Alabama buck but EVERY year someone takes a 235lb +/- buck from our or the surrounding area. BTW: a 4 year old Alabama deer that only weighs 130lbs is called a doe. Deer size does drop off dramatically below Montgomery.

[Rembrandt]

360lb Alabama deer?.....better contact your state DNR, must be a new state record they haven't heard about. Your friends deer is better than a 110lbs over the high end listed on this website.


https://www.outdooralabama.com/watchable-wildlife/what/Mammals/Ungulates/wtd.cfm

"Female deer, or does, typically are smaller framed and weigh less than male deer, or bucks, of the same age. At shoulder height, a doe is about 36 inches tall, with bucks of similar ages being slightly taller. In Alabama, weights of healthy adult does may range from less than 90 to more than 140 pounds, while healthy adult males may range from 140 pounds to more than 250 pounds, depending on age and habitat quality. At birth, most fawns weigh four to eight pounds and stand about 18 inches tall at the shoulder.

[jimmyraythomason]

Rembrandt,did you not read the part where I said it wasn't reported. Records are only for "reported" specimens. None of what you posted ,while interesting,has ANY bearing on this deer.

[R.W.Dale]

This is like when some poster says they have a rifle that shoots (insert unbelievable figure) groups "all day long" bone stock only to find out thier claim is better than benchrest world records

[jimmyraythomason]

Krochus,while that was expected,and yes I do appreciate a little good natured ribbing,it still doesn't change the facts. When I asked Jimmy,(his name is Jimmy Phillips BTW) why he didn't have it officially documented,he said it never occured to him because the antlers were "normal size" and thought only the antlers were of interest to officials.

[Rembrandt]

To put things in perspective....

In November, 1926, Carl Lenander Jr. dropped a monstrous Minnesota buck with a single shot. The field-dressed deer weighed 402 pounds. Conservation Department officials estimated its live weight at 511 pounds. No heavier white-tailed deer has ever been recorded.

[confederatescott]

Just asking.....what exactly does a deer eat from a Dogwood tree?

[fitz31]

forget about 223/5.56 if your itching to kill a deer with an AR get a 6.5grendel upper and you'll drop them where they stand

[jimmyraythomason]

White tail are very fond of the red berries of the dogwood.

[DIM]

I eat red berries from dogwood; got that tart taste to it, specially love in preserves in cakes etc…

[T.R.]

You've read the opinions. Now observe a real photo.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/KVL2ndmuley.jpg

My daughter shot several hundred prairie dogs the previous summer with this rifle. That means she understood the factors of sight picture, breath control, and trigger control to nail a COKE can sized target at 150 yards and beyond. It was no trick to drop this muleywith a neck shot at approx 100 yards.

Winchester SUPER X 64 grain bullet hits HARD and does not fly apart.

The hunter of forest and foothills is BETTER served by 35 Remington, 30-30, or 32 Special. These cartridges have already been proven for big deer at typical woods distances, say approx 125 yards or so.

In my opinion, the .223 is best left to expert riflemen (women) who keep their shooting within 125 yards or so. An amateur hunter armed with .223 is a problem waiting to happen.

This second photo shows her with a 300 lb muley taken with 30-30 and 170 grain bullet. This heavier bullet at moderate velocity will kill well at a multitude of shot angles.

TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/Kforkybuck-1.jpg

[Art Eatman]

Lotsa difference between the bullets available in today's world, compared to a few decades back. I got started in the hotshot .22 world when they were strictly varmint guns. Generally, folks used bullets of 50 to 55 grains which were specifically designed to blow up inside a jackrabbit or coyote.

Now? Mucho R&D has happened. There are hunting bullets around 60 to 70 grains which have somewhat heavier jackets and do the controlled expansion thing.

I wouldn't use a .223 on "serious" deer, but where deer generally dress out around a hundred pounds or so? I don't see why not.

IOW, tailor the cartridge to the game; use common sense and pick your impact spot carefully.

[oneounceload]

I've known folks out West hunting mulies with .223's...not all the time, but they were very proficient with their particular rifles and had no issues with decent mulies going down quickly. They also like to use them for pronghorn and coyotes

[jordan1948]

Alright the deer I'll be hunting will be under or right around 175lbs. If I see any much bigger I'll just go back later with a bigger gun. I don't have to worry about anyone coming in and getting them before me as I have exclusive hunting rights on this property.

[Arkel23]

I have hunted in the south years ago....was somewhat surprised how small the deer were. Nearly all of my hunting is upper midwest, we frequently see 300-400lb corn fed deer. Send em here!!

[TexasPatriot.308]

the usual old argument, here in Texas, any centerfire is legal for deer, and believe me many a deer has been taken by a .222. yeah our deer aint as large as the northern big boys, but when a average shooter shoots a .222 or .223, .22-250 and makes a good shot, it is a whole lot better than one that believes everything he reads and figures he has to shoot a 7mm mag or 300 win mag and flinches when he pulls the trigger and misses or gut shoots a deer. in reality here in the continental U.S. a .308,.270 or 30-06 will do the job for any game unless you really got to believe the gun gurus.

[Kurt S.]

When I used to hunt on a company-owned ranch back in the '90s, there was a guy from one of our NM field offices that used a .220 Swift with handloaded 50 gr. softpoints. This was a managed property, and you were required to shoot 3 does before you had a chance at a buck. This ol' guy would shoot his limit on the first morning of a 3 day hunt, 3 does, a buck, and usually a couple of feral hogs. Shot placement.

My wife hunts with a AR or a Mini-14, uses 64 grain Power Points in the AR and 55 grain SP in the Mini. No problem with hogs or deer.

[d2wing]

I have previously posted pics of the 250lb 14 pt buck I shot in Minnesota with a .223, using 55gr soft points. One shot to the lungs, dead before I got there 40 yards away. I only would recommend soft points and be very sure of your shot.

[Extremely Pro Gun]

If it kills terrorists.... it damn sure can kill a deer.

[overcast_days]

My 10 year old cousin brought down a 8 pt deer with 1 well placed .223 shot, 2 weekends ago.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

I have worked up accurate loads for my Bushmaster consisting of 62g Barnes TSX Solid Copper Bullets.

They apparently do devastation equal to regular bullets of a larger caliber, according to the Barnes Web Site and Video.

So, what would be a 62g X Bullet will do the approximate same damage as, say, a 100g 243 Regular Soft Point Bullet.

With all that being said, of course it all really depends on shot placement. A gut shot is not going to drop most any animal, however a well-placed heart, head and/or lung shot is a different story.

Here is an excellent slow-motion video showing the X Bullet working through Ballistic Gelatin:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308%20130%20TTSX%202912fps%2016Gel_WMV9_640x480.wmv

If you set your video player play speed to SLOW you can really get a look at the effect the X-Bullet has.

[MudPuppy]

First, I prefer a heavier caliber, generally more than needed. (either my rem bolt in 30/06 or G3 in 308). That said...

The last time I went hunting I took one deer with a 7.62x39 with soft point and one with the 308. The 7.62x39 was a botched shot on my part and it ran about 150 yards and required a follow-up shot (you botch a shot, it doesn't really matter that much, you've just created a bad situation for your prey). The 308 was spot on and it dropped where it stood.

My brother took 2 with a 223 using, iirc 62 grain soft points. Both ran about 30 yards and expired.

These were Texas deer, so pretty small.

I have been in the hunting party where 223 were used in about a half dozen instances. In EVERY case the deer was down as quickly as any other caliber used. This is personal experience only, ymmv.

My opinion is I would always choose a heavier caliber (243 or better in Texas), but if that's what I had (and it's legal) I would be fine with using it. (and I'm a meat hunter, respect the animal kind of guy.)

[North Texan]

I do most of my hunting with a .223. I handload for it, and use 55 gr. Sierra Gamekings. Never shot a deer with it (don't hunt them much), but have shot many, many hogs with it. Very seldom did they ever do anything other than fall over dead. Some have been larger than the average whitetail most hunters will encounter.

[zt77]

55 grain ballistic silvertip, starting load with reloder 7, s&w mp-15.
Last year I got a lung shot on a 135 lb whitetail doe, took two steps and collapsed. Both lungs were really tore up, but bullet did not exit.

year before that at 215 yards I got off a shoulder shot with same load. dropped the doe (although a bit smaller at 105 lbs) and bullet also did not exit. heart was pierced, however.

[okierifleman]

I have seen this thread in several other forums and I still cannot believe it every time I see it. The .223 is NOT a deer caliber. They do NOT make a .22 bullet for deer. Will it kill a deer? With 100% optimal conditions and shot placement, yes. But, anyone who has spent ANY time hunting will know, that those conditions dont come along very often. People come on! Shooting deer in the head? What if you miss your mark by 1" and you have a deer running around with a blown off face or missing an ear. Shooting them in the neck with .223? What if you dont get close enough to the spine to shock it to the point of incapacitation? Even trying to place a perfect heart shot(which is the only one to even attempt with this round)What if you miss by 2" to the left or right? You will have a deer running around with blown off shoulder meat or worse. I respect the game I hunt way too much to even consider it. Optimal conditions are just that. Buy a real deer rifle already in a caliber designed to hunt deer.

[R.W.Dale]

They do NOT make a .22 bullet for deer.

FYI it's NOT 1988 any more


Barnes TSX
Nosler Partition
Sierra Gameking
Speer trophy bonded
Winchester power point
amongst others

ALL "Deer" bullets in .224"

[okierifleman]

Its not 1988 anymore? Crap, I thought it was. Better change the calender. Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.

[scythefwd]

okierifleman, could you name a caliber that was specifically designed to hunt deer? The most common ones out there - the .30-30, the .30-06, and the .308 only one might be able to make that claim. The other two, which are more suited for long distance hunting, were both military rounds.

The ample amount of deer taken with the .223 shows that in the right hands it IS a caliber sufficient for taking deer without optimal conditions. I have doubts that every shot is taken only when the conditions are optimal. Are there better rounds out there, yes.... but that doesn't mean the .223 won't do the job.
If you miss 2" to the left or right?? You respect the game you are hunting but would take a 4moa rifle hunting at 100y? That is assuming that you aren't experiencing any vertical stringing at all. I would bet that most people use rifles that they shoot way better than that. It isn't like people are taking these out and shooting 400y shots, they, again I am assuming, are taking shots under 100y.

[Arkansas Paul]

Years ago it was nothing for the old timers to go out and kill deer with a .22 lr. That doesn't make it a good idea. News flash. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH USING A CALIBER THAT'S A BIT LARGER THAN NECESSARY. For some reason people think it's a sin to use a cartridge that's a bit more powerful than necessary. In the words of Bob Hagel (the god of ballistics), I much prefer overkill to underkill.

[scythefwd]

Arkansas Paul - I agree, there is nothing wrong with using too much gun, but is there something wrong with recommending a caliber that isn't overkill but is sufficient? I personally won't recommend anything smaller than a .30-30 / 7.62x39 or a 243 but that is only when the person is asking what caliber to get. When advising on a new gun, I always suggest more than the bare minimum, but when evaluating someones existing gun, we are only doing a disservice if we don't give an objective and accurate evaluation. There is too much evidence for the .223 as a deer caliber than against it. It is not what I would recommend for a new gun, but it will do if you have one in hand.

[fase3]

Used a 223 to cull my deer herd with and then stepped up to a 22-250 which I found to be far more effective(head shooting with both). I still prefer the 243 Win. as a min. round even with my southern deer. Over the bean fields here at my farm I use a 300 WSM for the long shots that occur in late evening. Then that's just me.

[Art Eatman]

There was a time when bullets for centerfire .22s were only available as varmint bullets, designed to blow up quite readily. That was considered "proper" performance.

Then came the .223 and a beaucoup bunch of R&D. There now are bullets in the (generally) range of 60 to 70 grains which are designed for some expansion yet hold together. Just like their bigger brothers.

Yeah, I sorta look at the .243 as my selection for a "light deer rifle", and an '06 as my "main battle rifle for Bambi wars". So? If what I had was a .223, I'd pick a proper bullet and merely be picky about the conditions for taking a shot--and I'd work at being somewhat more precise than usual. Not just "n the neck", but I'd sorta pick out which vertebrae I'd want to break.

[SalchaketJoe]

60gr Nosler partition or the Win. 64gr Power point. Put it in the boiler. Dead deer.

[BushyGuy]

my friend used a bolt action .223 rem he used 50 and 60 gr JHP bullets he killed a few deer with it with a single shot. Shot placement is important. you can also bring deer down with a 55 gr FMJ due to the fragmentation in that round, but it will ruin alot of meat if its a torso shot, best shot is upper neck.

[HGUNHNTR]

Agreed Krochus, the 64 grain power point has performed very well on deer for me. I keep my shots under 100 yards and I have had no trouble on big Nebraska deer.

There are a lot of .224 caliber bullets as pointed out that will do a fine job on whitetails. BTW okie if you miss the heart by a few inches you have a lung shot. Thats makes the deer just as dead.

No caliber, regardless of size, compensates for good shot placement.

[JASmith]

I've seen too many reports of little or no blood trails from deer hit by the .243 Win to even think of using a .223 on deer. (I did it once in '69 with a .222 Rem Mag and the Nosler Zipedo -- another member of our hunting party had to finish off the deer but my bullet was the only one recovered!)

[blackops]

Yeah, I sorta look at the .243 as my selection for a "light deer rifle",

I agree. IMO a 223 is just to light.

[okierifleman]

Do you think that the 30-30,30-06, and 308 are the only cartridges available? Yes, I can name several rounds specifically designed to hunt deer size game. 25-06,260,270,280,7mm-08, various 7 mags, etc.....

Taking a 4 MOA rifle to the field was not my point. I was talking about missing by unforseen circumstances, not because your rifle is incapable of shooting any better. For instance, what if the deer moves between the time you think you are in the perfect spot and the gun actually goes off? I am going to assume you have been hunting for a while? Have you ever not hit exactly where you aimed? Have you ever missed anything you have shot at? I would be shocked if you say no. I can tell you that I have been hunting for a lot of years and have taken more deer than I can count, and not all of my shots have been exactly where I wanted them. I take comfort in the fact that I am using a caliber large enough, that, God forbid, something goes wrong, has enough power and energy to either do the job or anchor the animal until I can correct my mistake, not leave him running around to die a slow and painful death.

I am not going to debate the fact that the .223 will kill a deer, it will. So will the .22LR. Is it a good choice for deer, my opinion is no.

[scythefwd]

Actually, I can say I have never missed where I was aiming on a deer. I will pass up a shot before taking one I can miss. I have to shoot through brush... that deer just got a free pass. I have even let them go at less than 20 yards.

[Arkansas Paul]

scythefwd, you make a valid point. I stand corrected.

[HGUNHNTR]

Okie RIfleman of the rounds you name only one could be partially considered "designed as a deer round" the .270 win, several others were designed with target shooting in mind.

Its kinda funny how the marketing of mega magnums has fooled folks into thinking it takes a cannon to kill a little ol' whitetail. I guess deer have evolved beyond the .223, 30-30, 300 savage, and the 7x57

[okierifleman]

Are you serious? The 280 and 25-06 were designed as target rounds???? Come on! And, with the exception of the various 7mags, none of the rounds I listed are even magnums, so what are you talking about????

I guess with your line of thinking, people have evolved past whale oil lamps, outhouses, and Model T Fords

[HGUNHNTR]

The 7mm08 comes to mind as a product of the search for a sihlouette round.

And yes in my part of the country we have evolved past pooping in wooden shacks, Model t's and whale oil lamps/

[schlockinz]

I've seen many deer taken with a .22-250, and I've known some taken with a .22 hornet, seems that a .223 could do it, personally, I'd rather have the 22-250 or bigger.

[pikid89]

i may be wrong but doesnt TN have a .24 cal limit

[jordan1948]

i may be wrong but doesnt TN have a .24 cal limit I checked, as long as it's a centerfire cartridge you can use it to hunt deer legally

[okierifleman]

Well HGUNHNTR, you just proved my point. People evolve, rifle cartridges evolve, some are forgotten, some are reborn, new ones are created. I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. On my lease, we take anywhere between 125-150 deer a year, I have seen deer shot with everything from a .223 to a .375H&H. Is the .223 legal in Texas? Yes, probably one of the first states to allow it. Is it legal on our ranch? No. We saw too many people that said they were expert shots, only took perfect shots, etc....come back to the house with tales of deer that just ran off. We found them with a shoulder blown off, still hobbling around the next weekend, or dead under the buzzards. I hope that you and everyone else who think its a good deer cartridge, continue to have great success with your .223. Good hunting!

[JCisHe]

I've got a guns and ammo here that says .22/250 is better but .223 is just fine within 100 yards.

I don't see why not. Just shoot the deer in the head.

[Arkansas Paul]

Oh, okay. Well if a magazine says it, then it must be true.
Great idea about shooting them in the head from 100 yards too. That way if you miss by and inch, you'll just blow it's jaw off, and it'll die slowly in about two or three days. Great advice.

[jimmyraythomason]

If you can't kill it with a .223Rem. you can't kill it with anything. We have a hunter in our club who lost 3 deer last season to poor shot placement. He shoots a 7mmRem.mag. Caliber can't make up for poor marksmanship.

[Arkansas Paul]

That is a good point too. Larger rounds don't make up for lousy shooting.

[JCisHe]

How about you track down the animal if you don't kill it and who in the world could miss with a .223 at 100 yards? Beside, the kill point would be the base of the skull where it meets the spine so if you missed it would enter the neck and would die very quickly.

And yes, when professional hunters say a .223 isn't a bad choice I tend to take their advice over say some dude sitting at his desk being smart.

[blackops]

I'm going to say it again because I like to...a 223 is too light for deer. Can you kill a deer with a 223? YES!!! Is it the best choice for the average hunter or shot? NO!!! Terrain is going to dictate which rounds will be successful. If your getting 100yd or shorter shots a majority of the time a 223 (for me) would do the job, but I still wouldn't prefer the round. I hold a certain respect for wild animals and using a 223 is just simply risking too much. IMO the 270 is the best deer round. Doesn't tear up too much meat, drops them quick, and good for out to 500 yds.

[jimmyraythomason]

Why would anyone who respects their quarry take a shot at 500 yards?

[JCisHe]

I'm in Michigan man. We're talking 25 yards most of the time. Too many trees and other "nature" in the way for further distance unless I'm hunting a cornfield but even then 100 yards would be MAX.

[Art Eatman]

Jimmyray, believe it or not, there are folks out there who, without rangefinders, have a surprising number of clean kills at 500 yards. I don't pretend to be one of them, but I have made one-hit clean DRT kills at 350 and 450. One each, but the shots worked exactly as planned.

[jimmyraythomason]

Art,it was a tongue-in-cheek response to blackops' post. Is it any more or less ethical to use a small caliber like the .223 on deer or take 500yrd + shots? Sure people make DRT shots at 500+ yrds,some also make DRT shots on deer with the .223. Just askin'

[scythefwd]

Yes, probably one of the first states to allow it. Is it legal on our ranch? No. We saw too many people that said they were expert shots, only took perfect shots, etc....come back to the house with tales of deer that just ran off. We found them with a shoulder blown off, still hobbling around the next weekend, or dead under the buzzards.

Sounds like those people need to learn what the meaning of expert is. Taking a shoulder shot with anything less than a .270 isn't a guaranteed stop. Even the .30-30, which I hunt with, may not break the shoulder if you don't get a good square hit. That is poor hunting, taking a poor shot, and just that poor deer (had to get that last poor in there :) ). A cns shot, which I don't do, or a good heart shot/heart double lung (easiest to get from a quartering away or broadside shot) pretty much should be the only shot a .223 makes. I see that shot pretty much on 2/3 of the deer that present shots to me. In deep woods, it is a great caliber... when shooting 150y, it isn't up to snuff. There is just too much that can go wrong with that shot. I wouldn't feel under gunned with it at all, but I hunt at bow distances.
I believe that you shouldn't be bragging about the 500y shot you took, you should be explaining why you couldn't get closer. You shouldn't be taking shots that are easy, you should be taking shots that are impossible to miss. *You is generic in this case... not anyone in specific*

[~z]

The 500yd shots are not for everyone but some are more than capable of making these and consider them “mid range” shots.

I don’t see the need to explain why “I couldn’t get closer” on a shot at that distance any more than someone else would need to explain why they couldn’t get closer on a 150yd shot.
Some folks have a wider comfort zone than others. I’ll brag about shot placement at any distance, I’ll also pass on shots I have not proven to myself I can make.
~z

[scythefwd]

~z - I would bet that there are less than 5% of shooters that can consistently take a 500y shot and keep it in a 6 inch circle under field conditions. There is wind to take into account, drop, etc. I know there are a good deal of people out there that can, but that is a lot of variables to be playing with. If you can make that shot... good for you. It is easy to say "I have practiced out to that distance and I know I can make that shot consistently". I just want to see how may actually can.

The mentality behind the comment is more that if you can see the deer at 500y, 99% of the time you have the time to get to 350-400 y and can take the easier shot. If it is on the hoof, and you can make the shot... you are probably in the top 1-3% in ability if you can do it consistently.

[~z]

6” at 500 is very doable; I would be willing to bet the # is far more than 5% for folks that have taken the time to set up their equipment and practice at these distances. However for the folks who just feed their .270 green box ammo and take a SWAG at the wind, I’d say 5% is mighty generous.

Long range shooting is not a parlor trick it just takes some education, observation, and practice.

However, maybe we should start another post as this is a bit off topic. Scythefwd, if you want to start it, I’ll be glad to jump in.
~z

[Tacbandit]

Back to the issue of .223 for deer...Not the best caliber, but if that's what you have, that's
what you use...If you must, the 64 gr power point is a good round. Forget the long shots, and take a clean shot...one you know you can make...It'll work for you if you do your part.

[blackops]

Jimmyray, believe it or not, there are folks out there who, without rangefinders, have a surprising number of clean kills at 500 yards. I don't pretend to be one of them, but I have made one-hit clean DRT kills at 350 and 450. One each, but the shots worked exactly as planned.

Thank you.

For those questioning 500yd shots...obviously your terrain is more forgiving than mine. Not that EVERY shot is going to be 500yds, but a 300-400yd shot across a canyon looks pretty dang good to me.

[~z]

Earlier this month I had a 460yd shot on a doe antelope. Two days later a 482yd shot on a buck-lope. A buddy had a 401yd shot on a buck-lope. All 1 shot drt kills. Could we have gotten closer? Maybe 10-20 yards closer without spooking them across the next ridge, maybe not.

blackie is on the money on this one. How are you gonna get closer in the land where the grass barely gets beer can tall?
~z

[Zak Smith]

Part of making 500 yard shots is knowing when you can't make them based on the conditions, terrain, and position.

[scythefwd]

~z - the same way I can walk upright through the woods and get withing 30y of a deer who is looking at me. Move very slowly. It also seems that deer recognize eyes, so don't look directly at them, but use your peripheral vision. I have had deer look at me the whole time I was standing up and cocking my rifle. Just slow, smooth motion and they don't seem to notice or view it as a threat.

Canyon shots are a whole different story...I personally would probably pass on a shot that long, but I don't have 4-500y ranges to practice on here. If I were out in NE, I might take that shot if I had practiced it a lot, but I would still probably pass on it. Out there, you can still stalk your prey. I would still say that 95% of hunters out there aren't capable of taking that shot. Remember, a lot of hunters are the type to put 5 rounds through the gun every season to verify zero.

Also remember, Blackops also bow hunts...so he can get that close if he needs to.

Zak, I have little faith that an excited hunter can make that call. I see to many deer out here gut shot or missed completely using center fire rifles and shotguns all the time. These guys can't make a shoot / no shoot call at 50-100y, I can't imagine them trying to make that call at 500. I'll shoot all day at the 300y range and do well enough to hunt, but I still would really hesitate to take that shot in the field where I am a little excited and may not have the best of shooting positions.

[blackops]

Part of making 500 yard shots is knowing when you can't make them based on the conditions, terrain, and position.

I couldn't of said it better myself.

Also remember, Blackops also bow hunts...so he can get that close if he needs to.

Yeah...I can get close to muleys in arizona in a pop up blind. :D

Understand though that when rifle season comes directly after archery the deer have already been pressed. Close shots are few and far between after the deer have felt any sort of pressure in my terrain my friend.

[scythefwd]

Blackops, rifle season comes after both muzzle loader season and archery season here. If the deer aren't spooked then, I don't know what could spook them. Hunting from a blind / ambush hunting does require a bit of homework to do successfully, and in general I go out a few times before season starts to scout. I hunt at bow distances, like I have said before. The reason I don't have to take 2-300 y shots, sometimes across ravines, is because I have done my homework and can move without freaking the deer out too much.

I have seen a successful 1 shot drop right there kill on a deer at about 4-450y. The only reason the guy made the shot is because he was lucky. He took out the spine on a moving deer (trotting, not full out). If he had been holding over 5 inches more, +/- 1 moa, he would have missed completely. As a matter of fact, he went to do a coup de grace and missed on the next shot (deer was mostly stationary) from the same position. He hit on the 3rd shot in the neck. All I am saying, and for the last time (I'm gonna bow out of this one now) is that while there are people that can make a 500y shot consistently, there are many many more that only think they can. These same guys that think they can are the ones most likely to take the shot they should have passed up. There is a whole 1.5 - 2 moa difference between a quick heart/double lung shot and a slow agonizing death from a gut shot at that distance. A lot of hunters cannot do much better than 2 moa from off hand or from a hasty field rest. Put me on a set of sticks and I could probably make that shot 7/10 times, which is exactly 3/10 times too much of a chance of a poor shot or a wounded animal running off than I care to take.

Zak, how was that snow yesterday? My sister in law had pictures showing it pretty deep for this early in the season.

[schlockinz]

(continuing with being off topic)

A 400+yd shot on the east coast seems like it would be rare at best, how often can you guys really see 400yds, let alone 500yd?

Out west is a completely different game, I never saw deer out there that would let you stalk up to them, unless you were lucky and had tall grass (not often). The trick was to use terrain and stalk close, that still might leave you with a longish shot. Consequently, most of the people that I knew who hunted lopes and mulies in the deserts would practice fairly often at 600+yds in different positions and shoot prairie dogs during the off season to stay sharp, these guys were some of the better shots that I'd seen in years.

When I lived in NY, I knew very few people who could reliably hit deer at 100yds, seems like they never really practiced that hard, or would just sheet at deer.

Different cultures, different norms.

[~z]

scythefwd, I completely agree with your ethics. I'm also sorry you had to witness some hack with a rifle take a hold over shot on a critter at that distance. I'm a bow hunter and a pistol hunter also. I'm a big fan of still hunting and closing the distance. I have worked hard to put many shots at less than 15yds, some at 1/2 that. I have invested countless hours afield pre and post season patterning and locating preferred habitat.

However, I also spend a lot of time at the range and in the field practicing extended range shooting so when the opportunity arises and I find myself in WY on a self guided public lands hunt I know my limitations and can make an ethical extended range shot. We all hunt differently, we all hunt the same.
~z

[blackops]

Out west is a completely different game, I never saw deer out there that would let you stalk up to them, unless you were lucky and had tall grass (not often). The trick was to use terrain and stalk close, that still might leave you with a longish shot. Consequently, most of the people that I knew who hunted lopes and mulies in the deserts would practice fairly often at 600+yds in different positions and shoot prairie dogs during the off season to stay sharp, these guys were some of the better shots that I'd seen in years.

Yes, it is a completely different type of hunt as most don’t understand (not that they should). You seriously just have to hunt it to understand it. I do my fair share of scouting and hiking my butt off to make my hunt as successful as possible, but the deer here are “educated” if you will and they are the smartest deer I have ever been around. They rarely see people, but when they do they know exactly what is starting, deer season. They push towards the deepest darkest canyons, make 150yd shots nearly impossible, and will challenge even the most physically gifted individuals out there. I know this intimately. You also have to understand when you have grown up in this type of terrain hunting you are forced how to be successful at longer ranges. Get better at shooting or get better at dealing with failure…it’s as simple as that.

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
"Part of making 500 yard shots is knowing when you can't make them based on the conditions, terrain, and position."
_______


This is good info...
Jordan 1948...You asked about using .223 on deer........Seems the conversations changed
a little...Lol...Please don't try .223 on deer at 500 yds...in any load....

[scythefwd]

schlokinz - poeple out here will hunt power lines. quite frequently you can see 1k by those.

Tac, good point and OP... I apologize for the thread jack. The .223 is capable as long as you use it within the rounds limitations. I personally would limit shots to under 75y, but I'm pretty sure you can go out to about 125 y with the .223. If you use one this year and are successful, please post pics of the damage. I have never seen a deer shot with that small of a caliber and am interested in what the internals look like after a successful hit. Discussing pix of the wound channel and the related damage from the shot would be most interesting and probably give you, me, and all others a great wealth of knowledge on how well the round actually performs. Just remember to wipe your hands off between gutting the deer and handling the camera... I wouldn't want to mess up the camera :)

[qajaq59]

Part of making 500 yard shots is knowing when you can't make them based on the conditions, terrain, and position. That and being willing to pass on a shot that you know down deep that you can't make. For many people that seems to be the tough part!

[tactikel]

Lets see, a 5.56mm killing a 170 lb mammal-naw can't happen! As stated a QUALITY bullet with good placement will take deer at reasonable ranges. I really would suggest a .243 as minimum.

[Yellowtail3]

500 yards. Wow. That's waaaay outside my comfort zone. Can't hardly imagine it. I've never killed anything past about 90 yards or so (all my deer are in the woods). I don't know if I can even see that far.

I'm thinking .223 is too light for deer. Meaning... it's not the best choice, when there are so many much better choices. If what I had on hand was a .223, I'd hunt deer with it. I hope I'd have the discipline to pass up on shots that might be fine with a 30-30 or thereabouts, but challenging for a .223, like shoulders (my fav spot, so they're less likely to run off).

Since this thread started w/some guy asking about using .223 in lieu of a .44 rifle... I'd say, the .44 is a much, MUCH better choice.

full disclosure: I've never hunted with a .223, don't even own one. I've hunting deer with shotgun, 30-06, .270, muzzleloader, and now a 30-30. No .223 rifle is as pretty as a Marlin 336, the 30-30 is a heck of a lot better choice for shooting deer with (IMHO, of course)

[kolob10]

I'll bet I could kill a deer with my 900 FPS 22 cal pellet rifle if conditions were perfect and it was a survival situation. Today I'll use a caliber more conducive to a quick clean kill every time under most all conditions. Here in Indiana, I use a pistol in 6.5mm Bullberyy improved, rifle in 44 mag or 357 maximum, muzzleloader in 45 or 50 cal. I respect the game that I hunt and avoid watching an animal suffer due to my miscalculations, ineffeciencies, or bravado. Good shooting!

[Arkansas Paul]

+1 kolob10
Well said.

[Vlad357]

I have taken several with standard .223 55 gr soft points. Last was a nice buck at 140 yards, head on, one into the chest and he staggered 10 feet and fell.

[jordan1948]

How did this go from me asking what the best bullet type and weight for hunting deer with a .223 to making 500 yard shots?

[Yellowtail3]

Thread Drift. Kind of like wind drift - gets you off-target.

i'm off in pursuit of the wily whitetail (with a 30-30)

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

~z on those long lope shots, do you use kentucky holdover, or use your turret clicks (up from a specific zero at 100 or 200), to have a direct hold? What rifle & caliber combo were you using? What field expedient rest? Thanks.

[~z]

Tad, if you will start a new post I will respond there. This thread has drifted so much (partly my fault, sorry). I think you may find more info in a new thread dedicated to extended range hunting. I will try to make this my last post in this thread.

Additionally I have limited experience with .223 and deer, I have however taken several with a .222.
~z

[Tacbandit]

Kolob10...+1 to ya...probably the best response yet...

[jordan1948]

I really don't have a problem with the thread drift......got ppl to stop flaming me for having an idea.

[d2wing]

I've posted pics before of the 14 pt buck I shot with a .223. Yesterday a game warden told me he uses a .223 to kill buffalo and elk for cwd control.
Of course it take very precise shot placement and knowing exactly where to hit them. He told me but I can't recall the spot.

[RockinU]

I have seen several deer taken effectively with a .223. However the .223 probably gets me more business for my tracking dogs than anything else. For sure the most that require "finish" shots at the end of the track

[sleepyone]

My friend took three shots with his 223 before the doe dropped. First shot did not phase her. Second shot caused her to look at her shoulder and walk around. third shot she fell. Not a humane way to kill deer IMHO. I was not there, so I don't know shot placement. He was around 50 yards I believe. Can't vouch for his ability. I do know that he went with me this week but could not hunt because he left his wallet with hunting license, at home. Especially frustrating because he saw two nice does and bucks after he realized his mistake. At that point he just got up and went back to the trailer and waited for us. : (

[DannySeesUSMC]

If your only rifle is .224 caliber there are some good choices in bullets you can make that will make it more legitimate for deer hunting.

60 grain Partition and 64 grain Power-Point out of .223 Rem consistently give enough penetration on large deer even when striking bone (exit or stuck in off-side hide) and in testing produce larger measured wound cavities than 243 Win shooting 85 grain TSX and .257 Roberts shooting 100 grain TSX.

If you had a thread about the 243 Win or 257 Roberts with those loads, it would be hands-down consensus that they are good enough for deer.

[blackops]

The 223 isn't a deer cartridge for 90 percent of the hunters out there...period!

[DannySeesUSMC]

blackops, do you mean 90 percent of the hunters out there feel it is inadequate....or are you stating the fact that 90 percent of hunters out there use a different cartridge?

[scythefwd]

DannySeesUSMC - I beleive that he is saying that 90% of hunters don't have the necessary skills to ethically kill with a .223 while hunting as it is, in his opinion, barely up to the task and requires perfect shot placement.

[R.W.Dale]

Well I can only speak for myself in that the only person I need to convince is myself. I've read all the accounts and done the research all of which convinces me .223 is more than adequate.

Now all I need is firsthand expertice. Which I hope to rectify in the next couple hours. As I'm literally sitting in a tent passing time till it gets light out. I hope to use my retro AR15 shooting 55g Sierra gamekings to fill my doe tag on a early morning stalk through a overgrown creekbed

We shall see

[nitforfun]

two words .......SHOT PLACEMENT......

all my deer have been taken with .223 but one it was taken with a .308 pistol

i have only had to shoot one deer twice with .223

it is all about getting the shot in the right areas and knowing those right areas

beleive this or not i saw a deer that a guy shotwith a .375 and it took out the two front legs and this deer ran till it pumped all its blood out
now if the shot had been place in the right area it would have been a drop in the tracks shotwith that size cartridge

so use a good quality soft point bullet
and place a good shot and the .223 will do the job and do it very well

[kmrcstintn]

recently went through this since I am setting up a Tikka T-3 in .223 as a 'backup' long gun/a low recoil hunting rifle in case one of the guy's wives goes out with us; I chose the Federal Fusion 62gr soft point due to the bonded construction which promotes the bullet to stay together (deep penetration and higher projectile weight retention); for those who reload I got recommendations for Nosler Partition and Barnes full copper bullets

[DannySeesUSMC]

kmrcstintn I would just roll with the Partitions or those Fusions that you purchased. The Fusions will probably be close to the 64 grain Power Point.

Barnes in .224 bullets though is going to do minimal damage to the vitals...the 100 grain .257 Barnes TSX does less than the 60 grain .224 Partition so imagine the Barnes .224 caliber bullet.

Barnes will usually win the penetration championships, but the others which do more damage are not going to stop in the middle.

[R.W.Dale]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6044426&postcount=4

:D

55grn Sierra Gameking SPBT, 30yds

pic shows the bullet hole going INTO the ribcage after passing through the leg and shoulder.

deer on its back, looking down towards the spine

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/01eccca8.jpg

[cottonmouth]

I have a seven year old son that will tell you .223 is plenty if you do your part.

J.B.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/cottonmouth_/023.jpg

[Yellowtail3]

.223 is plenty for fawns - I'm willing to go along with that. And fawns taste good, too... .

[stiab]

If you had a thread about the 243 Win or 257 Roberts with those loads, it would be hands-down consensus that they are good enough for deer.
I have to respectfully disagree. The smaller/lighter .243 bullets work reliability when you have broadside shots. If you have to shoot the deer at an angle and drive a bullet into the boiler room from the rear (for example), the 100 grain bullets are much better performers.

I have a seven year old son that will tell you .223 is plenty if you do your part.
I think it is great that you take your son hunting and that he got a deer, but it is tiny, and not much argument for the effectiveness of a .223. Again, I congratulate you and your son.

If you can't kill it with a .223Rem. you can't kill it with anything.
Killing the deer is not the problem, that is easy. Killing it cleanly, and finding it soon all of the time is the issue, in my opinion.

[DannySeesUSMC]

If you take the proper shot with the proper bullet there is no issue at all. Many stories of the .223 working for deer all over the place, but how many where it "failed"? I think it is more people looking at ballistic tables and what others decided was best who brought them up in hunting tradition. People could take all the different sizes of mule deer and whitetail across the country with most shot angles using a .223 with a 60 grain Partition bullet but that doesn't sell in magazines or make for interesting talk.

There is not going to be much difference between the favorite popular calibers when put in the right spot, the larger wound cavity of a larger caliber bullet with proper construction will give you more room for error and that is all. Deer are not large, imposing beasts no matter what area you are in, unless you are talking about their bigger cousins.

If you want to shoot a deer length-wise with a bullet up the rear-end then you will probably be happy with a larger caliber using a heavy-for-caliber bullet...but in no way would that give the .223 an issue. Hunt with your feet and take proper hunting shots and it will perform just fine.

[stiab]

the larger wound cavity of a larger caliber bullet with proper construction will give you more room for error
Room for error certainly has a place in deer hunting, especially considering the need for a quick, clean kill, and all the "tracking" issues with a .223 referenced above.

[jordan1948]

Kind of a mute point now, I decided to just use the .44mag. Don't want to shut the thread down though, makes for some interesting reading when I'm bored.

[Art Eatman]

Six pages has sorta tired this old horse to where he wants to rest...