I have bveen shooting muzzleloaders for the past 41 years and have wanted for some time to make up a home defense shotgun with 12 inch barrels. BATF has no regulations on barrel lengths of muzzleloaders. That said, what would be the best new powder that could be used that can be stored for time in it? I have always used black , especially when competing at matches and for hunting. Any help would be appreciatted. Thanks
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MCgunner
September 14, 2009, 08:07 PM
Hope your house has an attic fan for ventilation. :D
Don't bother with American Pioneer Powders/Shockey's Gold. It's worse than BP for being hygroscopic. Gun sits a couple of days if it's humid, it will fail to go bang. I shoot Pyrodex, but 777 gets a lot of kudos in rifles. In a short barrel, might wanna shoot pistol powder, eh, like Pyrodex P? Might need something a little faster burn.
Just some thoughts. Never done this project. Sounds interesting.
Ginormous
September 14, 2009, 08:17 PM
That smokescreen is for strategic withdrawal. Gives you time to reload for the next volley. Not that more than two barrels are required to kill zombies during close in engagements with a shottie.
For long term storage, my money would be on black powder. And a prayer.
barneyrw
September 14, 2009, 08:17 PM
<<"Hope your house has an attic fan for ventilation.">>
That's funny.
Ratdog68
September 14, 2009, 08:22 PM
I had 777 fffg powder in my Cherokee rifle (.45) and my Patriot pistol (.45) from last fall until June of this year. I capped 'em and they both lit off just as slick as you please.
Food for thought... consider having a fire extinguisher nearby in the house... and incorporate going to it as part of the home defense training... so that if you have to use the gun... and if there's unwanted smoldering of carpets and such after it goes off... it is "automatic" for everyone to think of going to the fire extinguisher as part of the drill.
RSVP2RIP
September 14, 2009, 09:24 PM
The British Navy and others were very fond of the blunderbus, which often had very short barrels. One could suppose that fire, being the bane of sailing in open sea, it wasn't that big an issue. But then all hell was breaking loose during a boarding, so putting out a small fire might not be at the top of the things-to-do list.
higene
September 14, 2009, 09:27 PM
Yeah, it's called a Howdah (as in 'how da MFer get away with owning that thing?').
Goex 60 gr each barrel and touch off both barrels and escape in the cloud of smoke.
:neener:
NobleSniper
September 14, 2009, 09:29 PM
:D Oh yeah!!!!!
Ginormous
September 14, 2009, 09:41 PM
Arcticap had a couple for sale at one time I believe. 20 gauge of SxS external hammer goodness. Loaded with buck and ball or #2 buckshot, that would be a formidably rude HD weapon.
That right there is a muzzle loading weapon that still has merit as a defensive gun! :eek: I might need to gets me one of them things.
Ratdog68
September 14, 2009, 10:01 PM
Yum !! I want a Howdah too !! :D
snooperman
September 14, 2009, 10:07 PM
I like the looks of that HOWDAH from Dixie, sure would save me a lot of time inletting etc. At age 69 my hand is not as steady as when I built my two Southern Mt. Tennessee poor boys that I have with Iron furniture. That was a good 36 years ago though. I have several home defense guns , Remington spartan coach gun but like to have a black powder one too. David Pedersoli does good work and will give some thought to the Howdah. Thanks to all. Sincerely , Snooperman
Ginormous
September 14, 2009, 10:14 PM
Snooperman, whatever route you choose to take, please post some pics. I'd be particularly curious to see patterns with both shot types I mentioned above at say 5, 10, and 15 yards.
MCgunner
September 14, 2009, 10:19 PM
Of course, there's the LeMat with 9 .44s and a 20 gauge barrel underneath. I kinda like the Howdah's simplicity, though. That LeMat is HUGE and complicated, trouble waiting to happen, and I'm sorta a KISS kinda guy.
have my LeMats loaded for bear than one Howdah . I can stick three triplex loads in each cylinder hole , so thats lets see 3 x 9 = 27 , and one Boomer in the Shotgun Barrel . :D ..And I can shoot two handed Revolver just fine , so double the math there , I'lle see your Howdah and raise you a LeMat or two for home defence any day:D ..And they are plenty reliable and far from complicated .
Here's a 30 second video of a a 20X20 gauge Howdah being fired that's fun to watch over and over again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_RAqtse42E
Middlesex Village Trading sells an Indian made 20 Gauge SXS caplock for $349:
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/PDBC.SHTML
Thecrazedorganist
September 15, 2009, 02:06 AM
How reliable is the smoothbore ignition on the LeMat? I've read that people have had trouble popping the caps off because of modern caps' more rigid construction.
Das Jaeger
September 15, 2009, 08:50 AM
a Modified Cap now to make certain it goes boom , slightly drag the caps over 180 grit paper . I have never had one not go boom this way, but I have had a few not go boom without the process . I think MCB does this too to his .
Das Jaeger
JamesKelly
September 15, 2009, 10:16 AM
Fascinating guns.
With all respect to the beauty of these weapons, it seems to me if your desire is to remain alive through a home invasion you want a gun that does go BOOM every time. That would be a 20" barrel 12ga pump. Read Gun Tests for their opinions on various models.
There is a reason most people switched over to self-contained, metallic cartrides, ya know.
Might I expect strongly negative comments to this post?
__________________________________________
PC -- Its not just for Liberals anymore
wittzo
September 15, 2009, 10:16 AM
Here's a pic of my Howdah from Middlesex. It would be good for "across the room" range.
Of course, there's the LeMat with 9 .44s and a 20 gauge barrel underneath. I kinda like the Howdah's simplicity, though. That LeMat is HUGE and complicated, trouble waiting to happen, and I'm sorta a KISS kinda guy.
The LeMat is like shooting a Dragoon or Walker. When you become accustom to the grip angle it's a easy to fire one handed revolver. It's a inch shorter than a Dragoon and no more complicated than any bp revolver. Center barrel reliability is suspect with regular caps because of the short hammer fall. You can use the German made caps, they are more sensitive, or you can sand the face of a standard cap. I haven't had a misfire since I started sanding my caps.
The Howdah is a two handed weapon for all practical purposes, at least a two hand hold to cock. You can shoot it with one hand but it's very muzzle heavy. The Howdah was it's own little idiosyncrasies, you must be careful when loading shoot that you don't let any fall outside the barrel. It's possible to get a few pieces of shoot between the outside of the barrel and the stock. This can work it's way down to the lock area and jam the hammers. This can be fixed by filling that void with glass bedding.
I don't think I would use the Howdah for HD. Way to much smoke and flame from those short barrels. I do use a 18 inch 12ga couch gun for HD, but smokeless. Even it has a tremendous amount of flash in the dark.
wittzo, that looks nice, I was looking at those before i bought my Pedersoli. I may still get one, I like the looks.
Loyalist Dave
September 15, 2009, 11:00 AM
An 18" pistol gripped Mossberg or a 12" barreled SxS with a full stock..., and the advantage of the shorter barreled 2-shot BP shotgun with a stock is...?
The Howdah is very cool BUT when the gun gets confiscated pending the completion of the investigation of your use for SD, how much $$ do you have invested in a Howdah for two shots, when you could have the same or less if you buy the Mossberg used, and have five shots? Maybe buy two Mossbergs for the price of the Howdah?
Cabela's Pedersoli Howda = $529 in 20 gauge
Middlesex Village Trading Company = $349 in 20 gauge
Used Mossberg 500 12 Gauge with pistol grip as found on Gunbroker, starting bids at $100.
Get the Mossberg for SD and the Howdah from MVTC for fun, and have both for the price of the Pedersoli Howdah, no? :D
LD
snooperman
September 15, 2009, 11:03 AM
But i want to have some fun with black powder. I am fully aware of the shortcomings of muzzleloading guns and at age 69 have taken my fair share of game with them too. It is going to be a "FUN GUN". I like the Howdah concept, and maybe I will get one, maybe not--just exploring and that's half the fun.
BHP FAN
September 15, 2009, 11:35 AM
I've got one of the old .44 Corsair doubles.Now I need to find it a mate.Maybe they'll breed up derringers?
arcticap
September 15, 2009, 11:55 AM
Cabela's Pedersoli Howda = $529 in 20 gauge
That's the first time that I've seen the Howdah on sale at Cabela's.
It's regularly $599. That's a great price.
I don't know about you, but I could never fire a PGO Mossberg like a pistol and I can't hit squat with a shotgun without properly mounting it to my shoulder and pointing it as I do when wing shooting. I just ain't in to PG or PGO "defense" shotguns. They're worthless to me regardless of how many rounds they carry. OTOH, the Howdah IS a pistol. :D You shoot it like a pistol. Yeah, I'd like to see some 10 or 15 yard patterns, too. It might pattern a little wild. But, the deal is, a smooth bore cartridge gun is NOT legal as a pistol with a pistol length barrel, only as a class 3, the whole point of the OP. And, if the cops held it for evidence (has happened before), I do have other guns to use. Out of 20 long guns and 20 handguns, I'm not going to go unarmed. :rolleyes: I keep a coach gun, 20 gauge matter of fact, in the bedroom along with a .38, a .357 magnum, and my daily carry if I'm carrying the 9 that day and not the .38.
Not my thread, but I think the Howdah can have some obvious real world uses due to current gun laws and the gun control act of 1934. The fact that you can mail order it without an FFL is cool, too, one of the things that has always attracted me to black powder. Yeah, it's a little expensive and I won't likely get one anytime soon for that reason, but it sure is a cool gun. It could even have some uses afield as with my .45 colt/.410 10" contender which isn't really a great single purpose gun, but is HUGE fun and useful for some general purpose outdoor uses. I've shot birds on the wing with that thing, taken a few squirrels, shot a hog (.45 Colt), and bagged a rabbit at a little over 15 yards when I kicked him out of the brush. It's scored a few rattlers, too. I guess the Howdah isn't choked, so field uses could be a little more limited, but it'd be a better choice for close range defense.
Cosmoline
September 15, 2009, 01:59 PM
The Howdah is huge and heavy. It's not at all the same as a cut-down thin barreled smokeless powder shotgun. It's basically the big Pedersoli Kodiak DB with a pistol grip and shorter barrels.
Ginormous
September 15, 2009, 02:07 PM
A smooth bore Kodiak? Jeez, I wish they'd offer it in a .72 caliber or 12 gauge version. :what:
snooperman
September 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
Blackpowder has been in my blood for more than 5 decades and once you are bitten by it, it seems you are hooked. I too have many different guns, handguns, shotguns, rifles, spanning the flintlock, percussion, western frontier and modern era. I find them all interesting and useful in many different ways, and most have had a profound impact on our nation and people in some respect.
Thecrazedorganist
September 15, 2009, 02:39 PM
How easy is it to dissassemble/clean a LeMat? This thread has made me aware of a curios sensation... of money burning a hole in my pocket... lol
There's more threads if you type "LeMat" into the [advanced] search box found at the top of each page by clicking on the word "search".
whosyrdaddy
September 15, 2009, 03:59 PM
The Howdah is very cool BUT when the gun gets confiscated pending the completion of the investigation of your use for SD, how much $$ do you have invested in a Howdah for two shots, when you could have the same or less if you buy the Mossberg used, and have five shots? Maybe buy two Mossbergs for the price of the Howdah?
Dave, that sounds great in theory, and that's the way it should work for everyone. Unfortunately, here in MI at least, if the average Joe shoots an intruder he can expect to have every firearm, sword, bb gun, cannon, and anything else "dangerous" looking that he may own/have on the premises confiscated for "evidence".
fyrfyter43
September 15, 2009, 05:08 PM
With all respect to the beauty of these weapons, it seems to me if your desire is to remain alive through a home invasion you want a gun that does go BOOM every time. That would be a 20" barrel 12ga pump.
Just a week or so ago I had a bunch of 12 gauge shells fail to go BOOM. Same with a bunch of 20 gauge shells. Probably close to a box of each.
When did they start making shotgun shells out of that new-fangled plastic stuff, anyway? And when did they stop marking the shot size on the cardboard over-shot wads?
But, the guy looks as if he didn't even feel it. Maybe he was dead before his expression could change. :D Back when I had a job, I used to do that to pictures of my boss.
That's down right impressive for 21 feet.
Oyeboten
September 15, 2009, 08:06 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...now I am hankerin' for a nice, short, Pistol-Grip, Double Barrel, Muzzle Loading, Black Powder, Percussion, 12 Gauge Shotgun...
Well...next Gun Show...I'll be looking for a Candy-Date..!
Ginormous
September 15, 2009, 08:12 PM
Kinda get under your skin, don't they?
Jefferson Herb
September 15, 2009, 10:53 PM
snooperman, I have left my pedersoli 20 bore loaded for about 2 mo,w/fffg black and use magnum caps or try musket caps on nipples upgraded.
higene
September 15, 2009, 11:07 PM
What does a 12 give you that a 20 doesn't? I shoot an ounce of .32 balls in the Howdah and it gets real sorty at 60 grains. Pedersoli recommends about 80 for their upland double 20.
You can pore more powder and shot in a Howdah and it will snort as much as you can stand. If that does not work try dropping the hammer on both barrels. I recommend wearing gloves over 40 grains.
If you chop a Pedersoli or a Navy arms 2X12 you are going to have a really light shorty. Follow the links above in this thread and you can see how much snort you are getting with these pistols (bear in mind that the videos are probably Not top end loads!).
Ginormous
September 16, 2009, 12:04 AM
What does a 12 give you that a 20 doesn't?The name "12 ga."
Bragging rights to go with the larger bore.
Higher powder and lead consumption.
A wish that they were available in 10 ga./.78 caliber.
That's about it. Otherwise, your points are all pretty doggone on the mark. :)
BHP FAN
September 16, 2009, 01:05 AM
a better question is what can a 20 do that a 12 can't? In both cartidge and black powder you can easily load the bigger gun down to the smaller one's specs,but the reverse is harder.I love my 16 ga,but I also own a 12.
Loyalist Dave
September 16, 2009, 08:35 AM
But i want to have some fun with black powder
THAT'S DIFFERENT!:D
You want to have some fun...., apparently with something different..., that uses black powder..., that you don't see at the range...., AND that might be useful in an SD situation to boot..., :scrutiny: then by all means...,
BUY THE HOWDAH
Actually, buy two; they're small, AND you have two hands!
I wonder what kind of pattern you get when you have two Howdah's, and you fire both barrels from each (perhaps one at a time) at a target at 10 yards?
Actually I must confess I want one too!
LD
snooperman
September 16, 2009, 09:36 AM
That is what I have been wanting to know. I am thinking 20 ga , my choice for home defense, and fun. I have been hunting with black powder rifles for decades but have never left one loaded for any length of time. Heck, 2 months for me is great as I would take it out and shoot some , clean, and reload it again. You have to think that the early settlers, Mt. men, trappers, must have left their guns loaded for quite some time, be it rifle smoothbore, or pistols. I am thinking about a 20 GA shotgun with 12" barrels or the Howdah, If I finally decide after all the research, this is what I want. A SPECIAL THANKS TO ALL FOR MY POST AS IT HAS BEEN INFORMATIVE AND FUN, sincerely Snooperman
wittzo
September 16, 2009, 02:57 PM
They sell the Middlesex (I keep wanting to write Missilesex :)) as a .62 smoothbore. Mine was mic'd to .638" which is about 18 gauge. I didn't wait for it to arrive, I jumped the gun and bought a whole bunch of 20 gauge muzzleloading supplies. 1000 over powder wads, 1000 overshot wads, and 1000 oil impregnated fiber wads. The overshot wads and the over powder wads are too small, the fibrous wads aren't a problem, I'm sure they expand when it's fired. I don't know why they sell Circle Fly wads in bags of 1000. I don't know what to do with these overshot wads. Confetti for big parties. :)
I got some scrap cardstock from work and went to town with a 7/8" punch and made up a whole lot of overshot wads that I use on top of the overpowder wads to keep the powder from dribbling into the shot. They hold #1 Buck (.30" ball), steel BB's, and #6 and #7-8 birdshot in place just fine. I made my own ramrod using a piece of oak dowelrod, a 2" hardwood craft ball, and a 20 gauge ramrod tip. I experimented with cut down 20 gauge shotcups, but they're not necessary at all.
I've gone up to 50 grains of FFg 777 and it doesn't kick that bad. 40 grains doesn't kick at all, it just makes huge smoke. It's also not that loud, might be softer on my ears than a modern shotgun, which is something to think about if you're shooting at bad guys in your house. You would blow out your eardrums indoors after the first shot.
If your shots don't stop the bad guy, you can also club him to death with it with all the brass on it's grip.
Ginormous
September 16, 2009, 03:20 PM
wittzo, the club concept is well appreciated here. As is your experience with the Middlesex Howdah. I am very tempted, if nothing else than because I'd love to replace the stock with something I made. Please continue to post your experiences with the India made weaponry!
wittzo
September 17, 2009, 09:17 AM
I mostly shoot it with solid balls. After reading arcticcap's adventures with his Howdah, loading it with random bullets, I guess it would be safe (and fun) to load it with "bad" dice, that is dice that won't give me 5's or 6's when I want them to. :)
I just thought if someone even got winged by a .60" ball, the doctor that treated him would be seeing wounds that haven't been inflicted on anyone since the Civil War. I haven't recovered a ball I've fired to see how it mushroomed, but I'm sure it will be pretty wide.
I have yet to try to fire both barrels at once, the trigger pull on this thing is a bear. I have to use the crook of my finger for leverage.
Loyalist Dave
September 17, 2009, 09:30 AM
I wouldn't fire both barrels from the same gun at the same time..., as unless they really go off simultaneously..., I think the beginning of the recoil from the first barrel to go off would move your aim to make the second ball really off target? Shooting one in each hand, each firing one barrel at a time is what I suggested earlier.
As for not seeing wounds since the Civil War...,
Actually, any ER doctor that has seen a wound from a 20 gauge slug will have seen what a Howdah can do.
LD
whosyrdaddy
September 18, 2009, 12:47 AM
Here's a deal for one of you guys if you act fast.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,183153.msg0.html#new
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 20, 2009, 08:13 PM
I know somebody's gonna think I'm being a smartass here but I'm not..
Hey, if someone is breaking into your home they'll be at what, 10, 15, 20, maybe 25 feet from you at the most? Why do you want to tear everything up with a damn shotgun? Are you that scared? Do you doubt your shooting ability that much? If you can't hit him or her at that short assed range with a '58 or a '47 or hell, even a '49, don't you think it's time to just throw down the guns and tell him (her) to take anything they want just please don't hurt you or your wife or children? Huh? I guarantee you that if someone start's breaking in on me I'm just gonna wait until they get in and then me and that '58 or that '47 (just depend's which one my hand fall's on first. they both stay ready) is going to blow their ass right back out whatever hole they came in, no questions asked and no quarter given....
Das Jaeger
September 20, 2009, 08:38 PM
Gentleman :D , although I know your serious , I still am giggling .
The spread on a shtogun even at 20 feet is nearly nill anyways , so to that point , it is kinda pointless to use a shotgun anywayz . I think the Howdha would spread more than a rifle size shotgun of course though .
I personally would just grab this just because its close , and I know its accurate and I know its gonna stop all 8 people , because I won't miss with my .45 :D ....Well ok , you probably won't have 8 intruders , ok , well the extra bullets can just be for fun then , just to make sure thier dead . :D
I think whatever your comfortable shooting WELL is what you should use for home defence , prefereably something bigger than a .22 LR though . I also think you better be thinkin about your neighbors houses if you miss ( Which I never do :D ) but over penetration should be considered in your choice of arms and guns . A shotgun is IDEAL for home defence , especailly a short coach gun , or pump action 8 rounder , yuppers .
A revolver or pistol is great too , but use hollow points , less penetration, maximum tissue damge too . :D
But I will argue with you Gentleman that I don't think people are scrared, they just want the intruder to suffer maximum death , and not shoot into thier neighbors houses too . I think a shotgun is a fine choice , and a BP handheld cannon is a great idea , the Howdha or simular would be awsome for home defence . But it isn't what I am grabbin , I want the capablilty to run after this turd if he or she gets away and keep shooting him or her till dead or maimed all the way down the block at 50 yards need be . I am just funny that way :D
Das Jaeger
PS...oh and don't worry, everyone already knows your a smart-A$$ , it's a forgone conclusion
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 20, 2009, 11:08 PM
Whatever..Shotgun will leave a big mess to clean up in all kinds of ways. Yeah, your .45 will work just fine provided pf course the feed plate is polished up good and you're feeding the right ammo through it and provided it dosen't just jam on your ass for no particular reason.
Well, I happen to think a lot of people are scared when put right face to face with it. To me that mean's several things. No confidence in their weapon, no confidence in their abilty to use the piece in a timely and proficent manner and on and on. When these people talk about using a shotgun for home defense you can bet your ass that no matter what they get on here and say they are thinking about the scatter effect and all of that stuff....
Anyway, how you doing tonight? Well I hope. Hell, I don't care what they use. None of my business. I don't give a damn if they set up a quad .50 in their bedroom and lay a couple of 3.5 rocket launchers alongside it for good measure....My sister has a Howdah. She will shoot that thing to....Hey, I'm not a smart ass. I'm just an honest man....
Das Jaeger
September 20, 2009, 11:58 PM
you are a Smart Arse , truss me :D ..Has little to do with honesty . Like I said I dont doubt that honesty character reference in ya anywayz . :)
To some extent your right about people buckling under pressure of that type of situation . Unless you've been a COP , or been to Combat , or been STREET learned the hard way , you have no clue how you'll react . Personally I never want to have to kill someone in my home or front porch , hee hee hee , but I wouldn't loose sleep over them croakin , might even enjoy it actually , especailly if it's a gang banger or two .
Anywayz , am doin fine tonight , hope your well too Gentleman :D ...I used to use my 51 Navy when I was young for HD , but why would I now ? It will not have the same effect on a perpetrature that a hollow point Winchester Silver Tip out of my .45 ACp will .
99% of the time me and my gal are here , so they got double trouble anywayz . If they get past the dogs first, which I highly doubt .
Jaeger
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 21, 2009, 12:29 AM
Das Jaeger. Glad you're doing well, sir, and when in the hell are you gonna learn how to spell?!! In addition to all the rest of it, just where does one find the (word?) perpertrature in the diction book??!!!!....
mongoose39
September 21, 2009, 09:53 PM
I bought an Ithaca Stakeout. 20 gauge pump, 10 inch bbl. $5 NFA stamp. Perfect home defense, especially with a laser!
I love to shoot BP, but there is a reason we choose centerfire for protection.
Das Jaeger
September 21, 2009, 10:30 PM
Whats , you dont like my spelling , well , hmmm ? Problem is I am entriely too lazy to use spell check , as easy as it would be to use of course . Plus I just don't care :D .....Did I mention I just don't care :neener:
You knew exactly what I was sayin anyway huh ! :D .....It's helping you keep your brains functions up , you should actually thank me . :D
Would it have sounded better if I wrote PERP instead of Perpetrature ? No , I didn't think so . :D
Just because Webster writes a word the way he does , don't make it right ,
especailly to a Redneck like me . :D
Cheerios , Das Jaeger
Ratdog68
September 21, 2009, 10:43 PM
Whats , you dont like my spelling , well , hmmm ? Problem is I am entriely too lazy to use spell check , as easy as it would be to use of course . Plus I just don't care :D .....Did I mention I just don't care :neener:
You knew exactly what I was sayin anyway huh ! :D .....It's helping you keep your brains functions up , you should actually thank me . :D
Would it have sounded better if I wrote PERP instead of Perpetrature ? No , I didn't think so . :D
Just because Webster writes a word the way he does , don't make it right ,
especailly to a Redneck like me . :D
Cheerios , Das Jaeger
Waht ddi yuo sya? :neener: :D
Das Jaeger
September 21, 2009, 11:46 PM
Eggzaklee :D
WHy be normal , so boring . :D
Jaeger
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 12:27 AM
You make it sound like a "choice". :D
Oyeboten
September 22, 2009, 06:40 AM
Personally, I really like the idea of a short Muzzle Loading, or other BP Double-Barrel, 12 Gauge Shotgun for 'Home', 'Farm', 'Maritime/Marine', 'Inner-City', or 'Industrial' settings.
One may always have their pet M1911, Colt Dragoon, or as one please, tucked into one's Belt as Back-Up...
snooperman
September 22, 2009, 10:27 AM
The shotgun is far more decisive for home defense and has been proven to be so by actual accounts. There is no arguments on this . A revolver or semi-auto hand gun is very weak compared to the blast from a shotgun loaded with buckshot. I have 2 shotguns for Home defense, one is a pump 12ga and the other is a coach gun also 12 ga loaded with buckshot. I am planning to get a blackpowder one too. I use my revolvers to get to my shotgun. While serving in the Army in Germany in 1960-1963 I carried a shotgun when on guard duty at night on the East German border not a Handgun nor a Rifle. It was the issue weapon for that purpose and for good reason, IT WAS DECISIVE. During the day we carried the M-14 rifle and the .45 caliber Pistol. Also , I would take issue with the claim that the winchester rifle won the west. That is not true at all. Very few people could afford them and the Shotgun was the gun of choice for Homesteaders, settlers, farmers and every day folks. They were cheap in price and did the job.
snooperman
September 22, 2009, 10:32 AM
I think a short double barrel muzzleloading shotgun backed up by a revolver in the waist band is an excellent choice for home defense.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 11:28 AM
Dess Jigger, Rottendawg888, dio wvfjkgirj, hgytiknnba hwewiivn tt jjkli!!....
higene
September 22, 2009, 01:14 PM
Watcha tryin ta say here? Spit it out - nouns and verbs.
mykeal
September 22, 2009, 01:27 PM
has been proven to be so by actual accounts. There is no arguments
Please provide your supporting informations.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 02:20 PM
Sirs, I wasn't trying to argue about your damned ol' shotgun.
Please allow me to state my feelings fully on this matter and then I shall be through with the subject.
I'm not the least bit interested in making a 'decisive noise'. I shall be interested in killing someone if they start breaking in on me. I have no interest in making a 'decisive noise' and scaring them away so that they can come back and try again later or perhaps come back and attempt to burn my home down while I'm asleep in it as a way of getting even. The only reason I'll wait until they get inside is so that I won't have to answer any embarrassing or aggravating questions at the coroner's inquest. I cannot see where 'decisive noise' would play any part in such a scenario. If I have my way (which I will because I'm a damn good shot and I alway's have my way) whomever break's into my home will not live long enough to hear the 'decisive noise' of the shot that killed them... I guess that's about my feelings on the matter in a nutshell so to speak. Oh, one more thing here in closing. You looking for 'decisive noise'? Just crack off a hot loaded '47 in your bedroom about 0200 hrs some quiet still night....
BHP FAN
September 22, 2009, 04:10 PM
Well,I for one have used a sound on more than one occasion over my lifetime to prevent any mayhem or bloodshed.I am by nature a pacifist,albeit,a well armed one. Something about the sound of a break open shottie being closed decisively,or a pump action being worked does tend to make the bad guys scamper. Then my 'karma' is clean,as is my living room rug,even if their under wear isn't.
Oyeboten
September 22, 2009, 05:35 PM
Indeed...the sound of a Pump Shotgun being cycled seems to be universally recognised, and, appreciated.
If not close enough to hear it...or if other sounds happen to drown it out...then, of course, it would not matter.
I would never intend to count on the sound of cycling alone to guarentee a deterance, (though many stories say it has worked well, or alerted the transgressor to the Shotgun's presence,) even if the sound is part of the romance.
So...in theory, merely racking an empty Shotgun might be 'enough' for some situations...but, I'd prefer one which is fully loaded, of course!
However...Pump-Shotguns, though some were indeed Black Powder, none were Muzzle Loading of course...and, our Thread here had intended an address of Muzzle Loaders.
I Love my old '97 Winchester...and, also, I'd really enjoy having a Muzzle Loader, ideally, double Barrel, 12 Gauge, and 'short'.
BHP FAN
September 22, 2009, 05:46 PM
Well,years ago I lived in a Commander motor home.The ol' lady had a friend with a construction buisiness that was ''loseing'' expensive power tools.He invited us to park at the job site in hopes that our presense would deter the thieves.Sure enough,in the middle of the night some one was jiggleing the handle to our motor home,probably thinking the tools were now being stored in there.After a quick glance at the mirror [which was turned to show our front door] I gave the shot gun a ''racking'',chambering a round,just in case it would be needed...of course ,it wasn't.When Ichecked out the windshield,all I could see was a rapidly diminishing figure's backside,and elbows.
No one was killed,and the property was safe.A ''win-win'' in my book.We stayed about three more days,but there was never any more trouble.
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 08:16 PM
Dess Jigger, Rottendawg888, dio wvfjkgirj, hgytiknnba hwewiivn tt jjkli!!....
LOL :D I unnerstan'
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 09:32 PM
Ratdog 68, yes I knew you would sir. Why, just as soon as I saw you make your first post that time I said to myself: I said "Stan, now there's a man who understands".
Where's your shadow at? Probably still at work.
I feel good right now. A man came by my old 5th wheel here and wanted to sell me an almost new Uberti Walker for $125.00 or 'whatever he could get'. My neighbor had sent him over and had told him I used blackpowder products. I could tell he hated to sell it so I poured him another cup of coffee and asked him how come. He told me that work was real slow and the baby needed some milk and they needed some food and that he would start a new job next month. I wouldn't take his 47. Anyway it ended up I loaned him $156.00 and gave him a few extra .457's and a little powder and caps so he might could hunt and protect his family if he needed to. I really couldn't afford to loan him the money but By God I can't afford to see someone go hungry either. I'vd been there and back myself. Well anyway, it made me feel good. I hope Jesus saw me do it.
Well, hope you're doing well RatDog. I'll be on for awhile here I guess. Tell your shadow to jump on and say hi to me if he find's the time....
NobleSniper
September 22, 2009, 09:34 PM
Gentleman, no smiley here for my hats off to you...........but it is ;) Good man.......... good man!!
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 09:42 PM
Yessir (GOTC)... I do understand. :D Jaegermeister? I'll bet his washin' his knickers or some other fool thing 'bout now. :evil:
Good on ya !! Yer danged right that your help was noted on. Yup... seen both sides of that coin too. I does the ol' ticker good to lend a hand when it's least expected like that. He says that the very hairs of our head are numbered... I'm keepin' him busy updating my status. :D
Moi? Doin' just fine. The work day is done, ate some Thai food leftovers for my dinner and the sun is shining in Seattle.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 10:07 PM
Hi Noble Sniper..
Ratdog 68..
Yeah I'vd got a pot (pressure cooker) of red beans fired up here myself. They ought to be about ready.
Awww, that's alright about that. The last thing I need in this world is another Walker I reckon. Besides, I know who he is. He's a good decent hard working family man. I'vd broken bread with them at their kitchen table before.
It's been a little chilly up here where I'm at the past couple of days. Supposed to start warming up a little about Friday they say. Must be so. I seen a couple of big jackrabbits and their coats haven't started turning yet even though there's snow on the mountains. There was a pretty good amount of snow all over yesterday. Supposed to be some more between now and Friday.
Haven't seen any antelope or buffalo or cattle either. They're down in the draws staying out of the chilly wind.
Noble Sniper have you been shooting any? The only shooting I'vd done the past several days was just firing my .31 pocket out the door so I could check out that spray can of gun cleaner. How's your work going? Not prying Sniper, just asking in a friendly way. As near as I can tell there sure isn't anything going on around here to speak of....
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 10:23 PM
Ahhh, yes... the venerable "termination dust" (snow on the peaks) as we used to call it in Alaska. Anchorage usually gets it's first full inch that sticks for 24hrs. around the end of October. The rivers are freezing over already (by now) in Kotzebue. Caribou hunting would be just beginning to wind down up there (for now).
The wildlife 'round here are still paradin' around in short shorts and tank tops and flip-flops. (The one benefit to livin' in the metro-Seattle area).
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 10:32 PM
Ratdog, THE SUN IS SHINING IN SEATTLE?? The Sun? In SEATTLE?? Why you bunch of ol' mossbacks would have 87 consecutive heart attacks if ya'll ever saw the sun! Think it was a damn nuclear explosion or something!!
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 10:36 PM
I know ! I know !! The webbing 'tween my toes is drying out and cracking ! Now... ya wanna see sumpin' funny ? Go to Juneau, AK on their sunny day (usually in April). The town nearly shuts down and there's white legs runnin' 'round everywhere !!
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 22, 2009, 10:50 PM
Ratdog, I know! Never been to the capital. I'vd sure spent a lot of time around Bethel and a lot of those villages up and down the Kuskoquim. Done a lot of trapping up and down that river. (hope I spelled that right) My son and daughter in law are way the hell back up in there.
Well, gonna shut it down and get off into those red beans. Hey, used to before I'd head out for a few weeks I'd cook up a huge pot of beans and when they got done I'd take them outside and dump them. They'd freeze in a little while and then I'd take my axe and bust them up into chunks and store them in bags. Then when I'd make a camp I could throw a big chunk in a skillet and have a good meal in a few minutes. Guess you'vd done it to. 'Bout everybody in the bush has.
Have a good night RatDog....
Ratdog68
September 22, 2009, 11:00 PM
LOL Yup... done the bush meals on more than one occasion. 14 winters was 'bout enough for me... even if I am 1/2 Eskimo !! I prefer the warmer climate. And, yes, you did spell it correctly. :D
At -60F, you can pour a fresh cup of coffee and toss it into the air and hear it crystalize before it hits the deck as ice.
Enjoy your beans and snore loudly. Hasta la see-ya-later bye-bye.
BHP FAN
September 22, 2009, 11:00 PM
Charcoaly Gentleman...I just read what you did.Wow,you just restored my faith in my fellow man.Good on ya. Definate 'Karma Credits' ,right there,though I know that's not why you did it.
alemonkey
September 22, 2009, 11:25 PM
Good job GOTC. I'm sure you'll be repaid for your good deed many times over what that Walker was worth.
Das Jaeger
September 23, 2009, 12:13 AM
been busy today is all , little time for this machine today .
I think what you did for that fello was outstanding , we must be clones , me being much better looking of course , but I am the same make and model .
Just collecting my thoughts lately , and stayin busy .
Fall sure is in the air here , crisp in the morning but got up to 90* today ,
was brilliant weather . Oh , and I aint Ratoddgy's sidekick , I am the Jaeger , he's my Puppy :D ...Now that that is all cleared up . :)
Cheers , have a great evening , and yes , Jesus saw ya do it , I talked to him already about it today :D ..Rest easy , your takin care of too .
Das Jaeger
Ratdog68
September 23, 2009, 01:02 AM
Mind yer elders there you ! :D
NobleSniper
September 23, 2009, 10:35 AM
Hello Gentleman, well I shot my Walkers both about a week ago. I only leave them loaded for about three weeks and then shoot the charges and replace with new.............. plus its a good excuse to shoot them adndclean them back up ;) Work, I worked my self out of a job friend. And none on the horizon. A buddy of mine has bid on some insurance work and it looks like he may get it so I will get to make some extra and as always I am sure it will pay well :D
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 23, 2009, 12:36 PM
Noble Sniper....May God bless Bobby Lee and all them good ol' boys....
NobleSniper
September 23, 2009, 01:50 PM
Amen :)
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 23, 2009, 09:57 PM
Where's my little half Inuit friend at tonight? I know you're around. I see your name on the active list.. No, it's not cold enough yet to eat some good frozen trout or white fish and sit there and just feel the warmnth coursing through me as the fish oil does it's work, and my body's fat reserves are not so depleted at this time that I must throw away the lean part's of the bacon because I can't sweallow it and just eat the bacon grease instead which is what my body would be craving anyway....
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 23, 2009, 10:12 PM
What am I? Persona non grata all of a sudden? Went to a lot of trouble to hurry home and fire this baby up so I could say hi to people. Somebody explode a nuclear device close to ya'll? Did a '47 chainfire around there somewhere? Not much difference between the two or so I have been given to understand. I load mine properly of course and so I never have to even consider such a horrible thing....
Ratdog68
September 23, 2009, 10:33 PM
LOL GOTC... I was on... then my email program froze up, so I had to reboot... and, then decided to do a little cleaning on the surface of the laptop too.
Uhhh? "Little"? :D That ain't applied to me in a VERY long time !
Yup... in the middle of winter, things like seal oil, whale oil, and the oil in many of the fishes DO help to keep the furnace well stoked ! However... I likes my seal oil fresh and CLEAR... and, not really fond of the whale oil. Leaves too much residue on the inside of the mouth and on the teeth.
You throw some bacon in with that pot-o-red beans?
Ratdog68
September 23, 2009, 10:37 PM
Talked to a buddy of mine who stumbled across an old H&R side by side that has exposed hammers and will require BP shells for it. The locks have some slop in 'em and it probably needs a little cosmetic TLC... but, the asking price on it is under $200 or so. I may give a little thought to that one in about a month if it's still available. M'be I'll go take a look see peek at it.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 23, 2009, 11:01 PM
Ratdog, oh yeah! Big chunks of slab bacon goes into the beans and sometimes a couple of ham hocks to. Diced up onion, a little garlic and a bit of cayenne pepper. I have cooked them with chunks of moose meat in them to and they were very good. I never messed with the whale oil except as a lubricant a couple of times for my firearms. But I'vd eaten my share of frozen white fish and trout. I like the 7th layer of skin on a whale to. I can't spell it right (never seen it in print) but it's pronounced 'MukTuk'. It's ready to eat right off of the whale, just like eating pork skins you can buy in the store in a bag. Hey, I was trying to tell someone the other day that she should try and get a pair of winter boots with wolf skin soles. I told her that it's hard to wear those soles out. She wouldn't listen so to hell with her. As you probably know it took the dumb assed U.S. Federal Govt. years and years to learn that the fur trim on the hood should be made of wolverine fur so it wouldn't ice up from your breathing condensation. People don't want to learn RatDog. Hell, clean white wood ash is the best baking powder on the face of the earth but don't try to tell my sister that.
Everything going alright on your end of town? Hope so....Hell, buy it if you like it RatDog....
Ratdog68
September 23, 2009, 11:13 PM
Sounds like you have a handle on the beans "how-to" just fine. :D Love the white fish, when you catch the first one... use it's heart as bait and you're good to go on catching more and more. The BEST dried fish I've ever eaten was made from Northern Pike. I've got a little "Shee Fish" (Inconnu) in the freezer. Another great eating fish from up north. Yessir... you have the spelling correctly for MukTuk. Personally, I prefer the baluga best. Dipped in fresh seal oil (Inuit ketchup).
I've got two pairs of Mukluks. One pair are made of caribou skin ("Soft Bottoms") and another pair which have "oogruk" (bearded seal) skin for soles ("Hard Bottoms"). Never seen a pair with wolf skin soles. Sure would be nice and toasty though !!!
Yup... wolverine "ruffs" are really good !!! I have a VERY unique one though... made of Polar Bear. No ice accumulation on that one either. Two fur hats, fox for dry weather and beaver for wet weather.
Hmmm... never heard of using the white wood ash as a baking powder. Thanks for learnin' me a new tidbit !
Can ya believe it? TWO sunny days in a row here... and it's still 81F outside at my place. Short sleeves, walking shorts and sneakers for work still. I likes that !! MIGHT even take the bike for a putt tomorrow evening.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
September 23, 2009, 11:40 PM
I'vd got a couple of hats but both of them are beaver. Man! Those things are nice and warm!
Not too many miles out side of Bethel and out past the village of Napaskiak there is another village on up there a ways called Holy Cross. An old woman who lived there made those hats for me. I gave her a big moose hind quarter (she really didn't have anyone to hunt for her anyway) $110.00 and two quarts of Early Times whiskey. She treated me like I was her son. I called her Grand Mother. She used to feed me a lot of kippered salmon (which I love) and some kind of nasty assed green tea she would get from the Native store out of Bethel...Well, the sun shined up here today to so there smartass! Damn! There must be some powerful miracles going on in your part of the country. Sunshine in Seattle two days in a row! My My!!....
Ratdog68
September 24, 2009, 12:10 AM
I haven't kippered any salmon yet... but, just did up some smoked salmon a couple of weeks ago. Yum.
My hats were made by a Native lady name Sarah Byrd. Last I heard, she was up in the Fairbanks area.
I used to bring quite a few caribou back for folks who couldn't hunt for themselves. One of which was a great aunt of mine. What a tale involving hunting for her !! LOL She's a jewel of a soul though. :D
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