How well do USGI 1911 mags feed hollowpoints?


PDA






WonderNine
October 31, 2003, 12:35 AM
Good, spotty? Not at all? Or just the same as other mags?

Was thinking of picking a ten pack of new surplus 7 rounders when I decide what 1911 to get. I'm down to three different models :)

If you enjoyed reading about "How well do USGI 1911 mags feed hollowpoints?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
HSMITH
October 31, 2003, 12:37 AM
Don't. Buy Wilson mags or you will regret it. If you are dead strapped for cash the McCorminck Shooting Star mags are second best and a little cheaper.

WonderNine
October 31, 2003, 12:53 AM
For high quality mags I think I'd rather have the 8 round CM Powermags, don't like the idea of the nylon follower and nylon stick out floorplate on the Wilsons....

And I've read too much bad about the Wilsons on 1911 forum.org as of late. Everyone seems to be bad mouthing them lately.

A $40 for ten USGI mags NIW I don't think I'd regret it even if all of the mags cause FTF, they can still be range mags.

SnWnMe
October 31, 2003, 12:53 AM
The design of the GI mag guarantees that it will not feed any bullet profile other than ball. If you look at the lips on a GI mag and compare it to an aftermarket brand name mag, you will see that the GI mag lets the round go "too early" in the feed process.

WonderNine
October 31, 2003, 01:14 AM
Ok thanks for the input. I'll probably be mostly shooting ball anyways, but I would probably get some CM powermags for carry in case I decide to use some Ranger +P hollowpoints.

W Turner
October 31, 2003, 05:34 PM
I'm stepping kind of lightly when I say this as I know that mag preference for 1911's is gospel to some people.............

But, I have not had the experience of fincky gun/mag combos in any of my 1911's. I have used Novak, MecGar, Springfield Armory, GI and Colt mags in all of my 1911's and cannot tell a difference in my RIA 1911, Colt Defender or Springfield Armory compact.



Go figure.....

Mino

cordex
October 31, 2003, 05:38 PM
The design of the GI mag guarantees that it will not feed any bullet profile other than ball.
All due respect, but that is bull spit.
Either that or the GI mags I've tried with hollow points in my gun are faulty. Don't get me wrong, they may not be ideal, but they are not guaranteed to not feed anything other than ball.

I'm currently buying 7 round mags marked as Israeli. Good, rust resistant steel. Very powerful spring. Well formed lips. Good mags.

Rob96
October 31, 2003, 05:50 PM
I have some USGI mags and they feed JHP just fine.

denfoote
October 31, 2003, 07:08 PM
I have two 'Nam era mags that feed WWB hollowpoints just fine!! :D

1911Tuner
October 31, 2003, 08:08 PM
All due respect, but that is bull spit.

Have to agree with that. It's more the ramp and throat...and especially
the amount of gap between the bottom of the throat and the top of
the ramp that determines how it will feed hollow/flat points.

GI "Hardball" magazines have been some of the most reliable
magazines that I've ever used, assuming that all is right with the
pistol. This, regardless of the ammo. The reason is that some
of the modern mag designs release the round a little too early
and suddenly, bringing on rideover feeds, push-feeds, and even
let a round escape from the magazine completely and launch out of
the top of the port when the springs get tired.

Aside from that, there are a few hollowpoints out there that
closely match the hardball profile. Remington Golden Sabers
and the now unavailable Black Talon, to name two. Those two
fed perfectly with GI mags in a stock GI barrel with the stock
throat configuration. Hydra-Shock and Starfire required a little
work. The Hornady 230-grain flat point FMJ needed very little
ramp/throat tuning to feed.

Of course...Your mileage may vary.

Tuner

dsk
November 1, 2003, 12:16 AM
Hmm.

I've used genuine USGI and factory Colt mags with JHP ammo for years without problems. Be advised that many so-called "GI" mags are actually imported junk.

SnWnMe
November 1, 2003, 02:15 AM
I have TWENTY SIX of these GI mags (yes real GI) that won't feed anything reliably enough but ball. They're all angels when I stay with 230gr. Even with Wolf steel case. Anything other than and the round will jump out before the bullet nose gets a chance to reach the ramp/throat. I will admit that I haven't tried the rounder full weight HPs but the 185 and 200 gr loads just don't work in my experience. I don't see it changing if I tried another 26 mags either. The pistols are: A cosmetically stock Colt S80 Enhanced (just trigger work and ramp polish), and a box stock 1991A1 Commander.

Mileage does vary I s'ppose.

Rob96
November 1, 2003, 06:18 AM
How can you identify USGI mags?

Jammer Six
November 1, 2003, 06:25 AM
The design of the GI mag guarantees that it will not feed any bullet profile other than ball. If you look at the lips on a GI mag and compare it to an aftermarket brand name mag, you will see that the GI mag lets the round go "too early" in the feed process.

This is correct. The reasons and the timing are explained in Volume One of the Kuhnhausen manual, starting on page 155, "Magazine Tuning".

1911's, and mil-spec mags were designed to shoot 230 grain hardball, and the shape of the magazine lips were designed to time the sequence for that ammunition, and only that ammunition.

I have some "GI" mags that you can have, because they don't feed what I shoot, and because they fell apart (floor plate bent) after only a few thousand rounds. OK, I can get, shall we say, enthusiastic about reloads during matches, but there's also nothing on the bottom of a GI mag to grab when you need to rip a magazine out to clear a double feed.

:fire:

Wilsons, on the other hand, are built by a company that has "Combat" in it's name, and they mean modern combat, with modern, JHP ammunition, and therefore their mags have lips that are shaped differently. The picture that demonstrates the difference in Kuhnhausen is figure 205, on page 155, and the text that explains the choices to make for different ammunition is on pages 155 and 156.

On another note, my first Wilson mag spring wore out after only about 5000 rounds, (although I may have bent it, pulling it out of the mag to clean it) and the follower deformed at about the same time. I could have had a hand in that, too. Enthusiasm has it's places, but tearing magazines apart for cleaning isn't one of them.

I called Wilson and told them that $28 was too much money for a mag that wore out after only a few thousand rounds, and they sent me a new magazine spring and follower by priority mail. 72 hours, phone call to range.

$28 is cheap for a magazine that will never wear out. Or, more accurately, that they will keep replacing, forever and ever.

I'm never going to buy anything else, and I think I need a half dozen more. :cool:

Kestrel
November 1, 2003, 11:44 AM
What about those "USGI" mags on ammoman.com? 10 for $79? Are those real GI mags and are they worth using? I tend to only trust premium mags, but wondered about those.

Does anyone know anything about them?

Steve

1911Tuner
November 1, 2003, 12:02 PM
I just love it when Kuhnhausen gets thrown into a discussion like this.:rolleyes:

USGI Haardball magazines were, and are, some of the best to come down the pike. They were built to use in a real fight. Although pistols don't
win wars, or even battles, they often save the lives of the men who do.
They worked because they had to.

Like any other magazine, though...they wear. Springs get tired. Feed
lips get spread, and problems loom. Keep in mind that many surplus
GI Magazines that you encounter at gun shows were rejected for
military use because something was out of spec. Maybe something
as simple as the follower dimple being mislocated .010 inch, or the
feed lips were .010 too narrow or wide at the specified datum line.

If the magazines are truly GI spec, and were accepted by the government
to use in pistols that had to work, they will feed most hollowpoints just
fine IF...all is right with the pistol, AND...the springs aren't fatigued.
And hardball magazines don't release the round early. They release it
later and more gradually, which gives the extractor time to gain
control of it while the magazine still has it captive.

No, they won't feed ALL hollowpoints. Hollowpoints are deviations,
and not in-spec. They won't do all that well with hardball that is out-of-spec either. (Too long or short on the cartridge OAL)

I'd suggest that if a pistol won't function with a hollowpoint cartridge
that has a rounded ogive, and is close to 1.240 OAL, it's time to have
a look at the pistol.

Cheers!
Tuner

longeyes
November 1, 2003, 12:32 PM
I bought five GI mags from ammoman.com a while back. I use them with my Sistema at the range, almost always with 230g ball ammo (factory). So far they have all been completely reliable. For SD purposes I would only use, if shooting HPs, Wilson and McCormick, which I run through both the Sistema and my Kimber Custom II with no problems.

Chuck Perry
November 1, 2003, 02:07 PM
I have a WWI era 1911 (Colt upper, Springfield lower) that feeds Hydra Shocks great with GI magazines. Chokes on Corbon 230's, though.

Sven
November 1, 2003, 02:45 PM
Have to agree with that. It's more the ramp and throat...and especially
the amount of gap between the bottom of the throat and the top of
the ramp that determines how it will feed hollow/flat points.

That's been my experience - USGI mags in my Valtro, HPs feed just fine. In another 1911 I tried, even Wilson's wouldn't feed HPs.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 03:13 PM
What about those "USGI" mags on ammoman.com? 10 for $79?

That's the highest price I've seen. Midway has ten packs for $44.95 and another place had USGI for $4.00 a mag. But then ammoman's prices are usually ridiculous...

I got another question, I thought all 1911 mags were drop free?? It sounds like some people are ripping mags out? Huh???

1911Tuner
November 1, 2003, 04:55 PM
I don't think those are real USGI magazines...At least, not the ones
that I've got in mind. Those are "Government Contract" magazines.
Not the same thing, and not the same quality. I've seen some of the
contract magazines, and they vary from pretty decent down to junk.

Basically, contract magazines for the 1911 are about like the contract
magazines that accompanied the M-16's to Vietnam. Not meant for
long life, and cheap enough to issue in huge quantities so they
could be jettisoned and left. Adventure Line was one such vendor.
I remember seeing truckloads of those.

Hard to spot the fakes sometimes...Harder to spot the Govt. rejects.

Caveat Emptor,
Tuner

Rob96
November 1, 2003, 05:12 PM
I bought the ones from Midway. The floor plates are marked Colt 45, have an eagle on them, and also marked "High Standard". They work really great in my Colt 1991A1. Just can't release the slide on an empty magazine. They have really stiff mag springs. What ya think Tuner, USGI or gov't contract?

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 05:30 PM
What do you think about these?

http://www.aspitactical.com/generic/details/ver8-21001.asp?PRODUCT_ID=21001

How do you tell the difference?

Are they gonna drop free?

1911Tuner
November 1, 2003, 06:01 PM
Rob's are contract magazines, but I understand that High Standard's were
pretty good. As for releasing the slide on an empty mag, the follower
is holding the slide stop in the locked position, and you're fighting the
spring. The strong spring is a GOOD thing.

Wondernine...I ain't sure about those. Likely contract too, but
hard to say what the quality is.


The numbers on mine are:

19200-
ASSY 5508694
MFR. 1M291
They are later manufacture than the WW2 mags, but very good magazines.

Avoid the ones marked:

19200
ASSY 5508694
MFR. 8R611

They are junk, and I suspect are bogus contract mags. The worse
genuine contract magazines I've seen are better than these.

The way to tell a hardball magazine is to look at the feed lips. If they
have the forward portion relieved for SWC/Hollowpoint ammo, they're
not hardball. They look like all the newer style feed lips...Hardball mags
have a gradual taper to the feed lips instead of an abrupt release point.
Wish I could post pictures. Dana kamm may have some. PM dsk to
see if he'll illustrate the difference. He also has all the numbers to
separate the real McCoys from the fakes.

Hope this helps.
Tuner

Rob96
November 1, 2003, 06:09 PM
Thanks Tuner. Now that I think about it,I think I had e-mailed you about it before. Like I said, these mags perform very well. When I tested then, it was done with JHP. Tempted to get more from Midway as they still have them for $4.95 a piece.

Jammer Six
November 1, 2003, 06:09 PM
I got another question, I thought all 1911 mags were drop free?? It sounds like some people are ripping mags out? Huh???

The mag won't drop free if you have a failure to extract, resulting in a double feed.

It's the only time I've had to rip a mag out.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 08:25 PM
Did some quick searching over on 1911 forums about the manufacter code 30745 that aspitactical.com is selling....not so good from the two threads I read...

It sounds like they are out of spec rejects as well. I think I'll be buying the ones from Midway especially if they were made by Colt or more likely High Standard which is ok with me too.


http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=45335&highlight=30745

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60336&highlight=30745

DMK
November 1, 2003, 08:35 PM
I've purchased about twenty something of those 30745s that Aspi Tactical is selling. I only use them as range mags to save wear on my Chip McCormicks and Mec-Gars, but only two have failed me (and when I say failed, I mean FTF, never had a structural failure). Both of those failed under 50 or so rounds and for the $4 price I'm not complaining. I just painted them red for snap cap use only.


BTW: these are made by the MASON-RUST CO starting November 1974.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 08:40 PM
Thanks for the info.

But I'm thinking since the other ones are almost the same price, no reason to get the 30745's...

I do understand they have the newer style feedlips from what I just read though, not that that makes a difference really.

DMK
November 1, 2003, 08:42 PM
I do understand they have the newer style feedlips from what I just read though They do, but I still would never trust my life on them. Not when Chip McCormicks and Mec-Gars can be had for around $10 each.

Have you looked at www.cdnninvestments.com? They have Mec-Gars, Colt and Springfield factory mags for decent prices.

MaterDei
November 1, 2003, 08:44 PM
To date my Kimber has reliably feed any round with any mag. Sorry, but I just think that until your weapon proves otherwise it would be foolish to spend big bucks on a 'better' mag.

MaterDei

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 08:45 PM
I saw they're marked 1987 on the paper wrapper from the pic. Were your wrappers marked that way too? Pretty new for surplus.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 08:57 PM
To date my Kimber has reliably feed any round with any mag. Sorry, but I just think that until your weapon proves otherwise it would be foolish to spend big bucks on a 'better' mag.

I agree, but I'm sort of anti-Kimber because I don't like beavertails or MIM'd parts. I'm looking more at older Colts, Sistemas, and the Rock River Arms Hardball model. I don't think 10 mags for $44.95 as opposed to 10 for $40.00 is big bucks. I'm just interested in the best bang for the buck.

I plan on probably buying 20 from Midway mostly as range mags and then maybe a few 8 round CM Powermags.

Anyone know anything about those super expensive "Kobra" mags or whatever they are? Like $45 a pop???

DMK
November 1, 2003, 09:04 PM
I saw they're marked 1987 on the paper wrapper from the pic. Were your wrappers marked that way too? Pretty new for surplus. I'm sorry, I never looked. I just bought them as range mags so I didn't really care. Either they'd work, or not. They are brand new though with shiny bluing.

Sounds like you have a good plan. I use the cheaper Shooting Stars with great success, so I'm sure the better Powermags will work fine for you. Just make sure to reliability test them with a couple hundred rounds. Although, most of us shoot that much in an afternoon without even thinking about it. :cool:

BigG
November 1, 2003, 09:06 PM
Here's three different mags that work pretty well, in fact, perfect.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=578980

DMK
November 1, 2003, 09:09 PM
What are those BigG?

BigG
November 1, 2003, 09:09 PM
Here's the same three in the same order showing the base plates.

From left to right: GI, Jay Scott, Colt. Only the Colt has the new spread feed lips. The other two have the classic tapered lips. Excuse my poor photography!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=578987

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the pictures BigG.

Now that I think about it, I like all of my mags to be the same capacity. Are their any deals out there on surplus or cheaper 8 round mags? They all seem to be $20 a pop or so even if they're just standard Colt mags, not that Colt mags are bad, but I was hoping for better prices on reasonable quality 8 rounders. I change my mind so much I'm sure I'm driving your guys nuts. :uhoh:

DMK
November 1, 2003, 09:17 PM
Are their any deals out there on surplus or cheaper 8 round mags? $8 Mec-Gars at CDNN (see link above)

Man BigG, those Jay Scott mags really do have wide feed lips. It looks like the round is only held in at the base.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 09:19 PM
Sounds like you have a good plan. I use the cheaper Shooting Stars with great success, so I'm sure the better Powermags will work fine for you. Just make sure to reliability test them with a couple hundred rounds.

Thanks, I've been mulling over this 1911 thing for quite awhile now so I've had alot of time to do research into it rather than just jump in. Usually, that's the way things work out best though.

WonderNine
November 1, 2003, 09:22 PM
$8 Mec-Gars at CDNN (see link above)

Thanks DMK. What has been your experience with the Mec-Gars? I know they made excellent and in fact the best prebans IME for wondernines like Sigs, Berettas, and Brownings, but some have expressed that their 1911 mags leave a little to be desired.

Jim K
November 1, 2003, 10:16 PM
Hi, guys,

Also avoid those mags marked with the CAGE code of 30745 (the ones on that web site). They were rejected by the government as not within specs and were then dumped on the civilian market as "genuine GI" mags. The same outfit seems to be the maker of a lot of the mags marked "COLT/.45 AUTO" on the floorplate. Look at the size and position of the holes for the tip-off. They also have a very heavy spring, much heavier than necessary and a real problem if a magazine must be reloaded in a hurry.

I agree on the mags marked 1M291; they are pretty good.

GI WWII mags were either unmarked or marked with a small letter on the front mag lip. They are all I use.

As for hollow point feeding, it depends as much on the ammo as it does on the magazine. If the overall length is too short (as some HP ammo is), or the bullet profile is radically different from that of GI ball, then GI mags will not work or will not work well. But I have put quite a bit of Remington Golden Sabre through my guns using GI mags, with no problem.

Jim

Jammer Six
November 1, 2003, 10:44 PM
I agree, but I'm sort of anti-Kimber because I don't like beavertails or MIM'd parts.

Stupid question time. :confused:

What does "MIM" mean?

1911Tuner
November 1, 2003, 11:01 PM
Metal Injection Molded...Fast, cheap way to turn out small parts with
little or no finish machining required.

Some say it's good stuff. I call it MayPop Steel. It's okay for a
range queen or a beater that'll never be carried for a serious
purpose, but I just flat-out don't trust it...not yet anyway. 20
years down the road, after they get the bugs worked out, maybe...
I guess I'm just old-fashioned.:p

Cheers!
Tuner

DMK
November 1, 2003, 11:01 PM
What does "MIM" mean? Metal Injection Molding. Basically cast parts instead of machined parts.

Wondernine, Mec-Gar makes probably the best mags for CZs and they make the factory Kel-tec mags. I only own 7 round Mec-Gars for the 1911 though. However, they are completely reliable, have a nice finish and stout followers.

AK103K
November 1, 2003, 11:23 PM
Avoid the ones marked:

19200
ASSY 5508694
MFR. 8R611

They are junk, and I suspect are bogus contract mags. The worse
genuine contract magazines I've seen are better than these.
I have a bunch of these very mags, and some others with different numbers, and have had no trouble with any of them. Of all the mags I've tried, the GI mags are the only ones that work in all my 1911's. Even the Wilsons I have wont do that. In fact, the label on the bag the Wilsons came in had a "hardball only for best results" on them. At $35 dollars a pop, I could have bought almost 7 GI mags as I only paid $5.50 for them in bulk. Another annoying thing about the Wilsons are those damn slots in the body. You might as well just stuff the lint in them and be done with it. The GI mags I have have had no trouble feeding Federal hollow points and hydra shoxs.

sm
November 1, 2003, 11:41 PM
Somebody has to ask...
On the USGI mags you guys are getting go they have the dimple on the follower?
[ go ahead 1911 Tuner and grin]
My "old Colt" ones did...going back a few years tho'.

First off all my guns run, regardlessof mag or ammo.

Now my 6-10 yr old Wilson 47 and 47D are beefier than the ones I recently saw and used. Maybe I got lucky, and I don't recal the spec's , but my springs are a bit larger dia, follower/mag tube different.

My kimber mags "sure" appear to be CMC, especially with ones the pat. no., and these also "sure " remind me of the old colts, even tho no dimple, marked with small "s" , welded bottom.

I have used a bunch of different ones, Metalform, Mec-Gar, Wolff...but I never had a problem with feeding JHPs.

My first personal owned centerfire was a '73 Combat commander, all steel of course and I used "flying ashtrays", all I did was use factory colt mags or some USGI mags, load her up and shoot. Nary a hiccup.

I must be lucky with 1911 styles and mags. I'd just as son have the USGI and replace when need with Wolff springs...but finding a dimpled follower is gonna be hard, nobody seems to list it...and darn can't tell from pics.

WonderNine
November 2, 2003, 01:58 AM
Metal Injection Molding. Basically cast parts instead of machined parts.

No, cast parts are not the same. MIM parts are poured into a cast along with polymer and pressure/heat molded into parts. MIM parts are part plastic. Cast parts are all steel.

Colt recently stopped using MIM extractors because of all the problems they've been having, but they still use MIM sears, mag catches, and a couple other parts. If I got a new Colt I'd want to replace at least the sear and mag catch.

BluesBear
November 2, 2003, 02:16 AM
I just received some new 8rd Mec-Gars from CDNN this week to go with the 3 I already had. They work 100% in both of my Colts.

Less than $8 each.

Ordered online Monday around 11pm PST and got them in Wednesday's mail.

I really like the little PPKish pinky extension on the floorplate. It also makes the body of the mag just a smidgen longer so I think it's one of the more reliable 8 rounders out there.

BluesBear
November 2, 2003, 03:03 AM
Rob,

The mags you got from Midway are contract mags made for High Standard.
High Standard makes a very good Mil Spec 1911. It's just a well kept secret.

1911Tuner
November 2, 2003, 07:06 AM
19200
ASSY 5508694
MFR. 8R611

AK10, Maybe the ones that I have are fakes, I don't know. I do know
that they're possibly the worst excuses for magazines I've ever seen.
The springs are too weak to make a 6-round Officer's Model magazine
function reliably, and the tube's steel is so thin and soft that it can be
bent easily without pliers. Surprisingly, the followers aren't bad, and
are in service in other magazines.

In addition, about a third of them wouldn't seat in the magwell of
three of my GI pistols, and I don't mean they failed to lock in.
The width was so far out of spec, they wouldn't go past halfway
into the well. I was able to get them to work after squeezing them
lightly in a vise. The welds are so weak that you can rip the baseplate
off of them with your hands.

I replaced the springs, made some adjustments on the feed lips, and was
able to use them for a time as beater feeders in two range pistols. I
didn't mind them hitting the ground, even though I had to rip most of
the time. They were good mags to use for malfunction clearance drills
and such. Eventually, the need for repeated reshaping of the fed lips
work-hardened them and they began to break.

My better half ordered them off ebay about two years ago as a
surprise. Because the price was right, I decided to give them a try.


Caveat Emptor!

Tuner

If you enjoyed reading about "How well do USGI 1911 mags feed hollowpoints?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!