Police Trade-In S&W Revolvers On Sale


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Old Fuff
September 16, 2009, 10:13 PM
J&G Sales, of Prescott, AZ. Have reduced the price on several lots of Police trade-in Model 64 S&W revolvers. They are K-frame/.38 Special/Stainless/4-inch heavy barrel/ guns with bobbed hammers (double-action only). Prices run between $190.00 to $250.00 (rounded numbers) in square or round-butt configurations.

In my view they make an excellent “packing piece,” or a relatively inexpensive platform for a one-of-a-kind custom project.

If you’re interested inquire – but I think that most if not all pre-date the despised infernal :evil: lock.

http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/cPath/16_211_431

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earlthegoat2
September 17, 2009, 07:19 AM
One thing to consider it I believe they are DAO converted.

Old Fuff
September 17, 2009, 07:38 AM
I agree, so I made a point of mentioning it.

On a carry piece, or something for home defense that dosen't bother me, and in fact I see it as an advantage. Also for the price, exchanging a different hammer would be affordable.

That said, finding police trade-in revolvers is getting harder and harder, and the asking prices aren't going down. For those who are not bothered by DAO actions, or are willing to pay to have them changed, these seem to me to be a good deal.

Landric
September 17, 2009, 08:44 AM
For a defense revolver, there is almost no reason to have single action anyway. It can be nice for the target range (though I almost never use it since I don't generally shoot at targets great distances away with handguns), but its not something I worry about on a defense gun. None of my carry revolvers can be cocked anyway, they are all DAO.

IMO, someone who can't shoot a revolver in DA mode is much the same as someone who can't drive a manual transmission, all show and no go.

YMMV

Oh, and I got one of the J&G revolvers, some dings and scratches, but functionally perfect. I'm quite happy with it. It is eventually going to get a moon clip conversion.

earlthegoat2
September 17, 2009, 08:49 AM
I agree that I would rather have DAO as well but you know the crowd we deal with sometimes...

These would be good candidates for barrel chopping and RB converting if you got the SBs. Maybe turn them into a 9x23. The list goes on.

Old Fuff
September 17, 2009, 09:13 AM
but you know the crowd we deal with sometimes...

Sure do... :uhoh:

But this forum is populated with a lot of folks who are more inclined toward "practical" then "bullseye." Also if the single-action option is out of the picture the K-frame Smith & Wesson offers a double-action system that is second to none - except their own pre-war "long action."

If some major modification are in the picture, refinishing isn't necessary on a stainless revolver, as it would be with a blued or plated model.

Of course a Model 64 in DAO isn't the right cup of tea for everybody, but still... those prices are attractive for someone who wants a basic workhorse. ;)

Sam1911
September 17, 2009, 09:29 AM
Maybe turn them into a 9x23.

Interesting idea. I looked up some numbers though and found the following:

9x23 can be loaded to 1,300 fps with a 125 gr. JHP -- at 34,000 CUP.

.38 +P can be loaded to 1,220 or so with a 125 gr. JHP -- but that's only making 18,500 CUP.

Would it be safe to push the pressures that far?

Would it be reasonable to do so for only 700 fps. gain?

By comparison, the .357 Mag can do better than 1,900 fps with that bullet at 42,000 CUP.

(And, of course, these numbers probably don't come from a 4" barreled revolver -- but they're useful for a comparison.)

-Sam

HexHead
September 17, 2009, 09:37 AM
Those old workhorses are a lot of fun. Local store here had bought out a security company's inventory a few months back and I grabbed a 4" pencil barrel Model 10-7 for $200 OTD. Put some like new Magna grips on it and I've got a great fun revolver. Has some holster wear, as it was carried lots but shot almost never. It's the least money I've ever spent on a gun and one of the most fun ones. A true classic.

Jim Watson
September 17, 2009, 09:43 AM
I don't mind the DAO but would sure like to have sights I could see. Paint on the low blade and shallow notch of a fixed sight revolver only goes so far, and that is no longer far enough for my eyesight. Hamilton Bowen makes a higher profile fixed rear sight but it would cost more than these used guns. Ross Carter used to, but appears to be out of the business.

middy
September 17, 2009, 09:43 AM
I like to have a single action option for rabbits and long range plinking.

I guess I'm one of "the crowd." You know, the people who shoot for fun. ;)

armoredman
September 17, 2009, 09:56 AM
I would suspect those are Brinks trade ins...

Old Fuff
September 17, 2009, 10:01 AM
I guess I'm one of "the crowd." You know, the people who shoot for fun.

Nothing wrong with that - I meet the description too. :)

These revolvers are intended to fit a different need.

Jim Watson

I don't mind the DAO but would sure like to have sights I could see.

I know the feeling. What you do is file off the original front sight (or shorten the barrel) and then have a gunsmith cut a dovetail in the barrel rib. Mount one of the front sights usually intended to be mounted on a pistol slide. If you desire, you can pick a particular load, and zero it at a certain distance, by driving the sight right or left to correct for windage, and if necessary file it down for elevation. When finished file the sight base to match the rib. S&W does a similar modification at the Performance Center on barrels that have a muzzle break.

Spartacus451
September 17, 2009, 10:17 AM
I have a nice NY-1 I bought in a local store for $400. I don't regret paying that much for a gun I got to inspect in advance. I like it enough that it is very tempting to get another.

GrandmasterB
September 17, 2009, 10:36 AM
These are great revolvers and the prices are very attractive. Perfect for home defense, a car/truck gun, or go shoot that IDPA match with it. I bought one a couple months ago and while it had a few scuffs and dings, (some fine sandpaper took care of that - love the stainless!) it shoots super accurate and I am delighted with the value.

Jim Watson
September 17, 2009, 10:41 AM
What you do is file off the original front sight (or shorten the barrel) and then have a gunsmith cut a dovetail in the barrel rib. Mount one of the front sights usually intended to be mounted on a pistol slide.

That still leaves you with a hog wallow rear sight and its small notch. The front sight can't be taller without losing zero.

I daresay I could catch my FLG on a dull day and get him to build a rear sight and cut it in like Bowen's or Carter's, but it would be simpler just to keep an eye out for an adjustable sighted gun.

Old Fuff
September 17, 2009, 11:04 AM
I daresay I could catch my FLG on a dull day and get him to build a rear sight and cut it in like Bowen's or Carter's, but it would be simpler just to keep an eye out for an adjustable sighted gun.

Sort of true, but not as much fun… :evil:

For some purposes adjustable sights and other deluxe options might be better, but I don’t think you’ll find them for these prices. I never met to say or imply that these revolvers were the ultimate answer to everyone’s needs. They are however, in my opinion, an excellent buy when they do meet the need.

LubeckTech
September 17, 2009, 11:44 AM
Sounds like a good platform for a custom gaming gun. I just saw this company today; http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp and was intrigued by their K frame Multi caliber conversion for $250. This could used to set up a moonclipped gun that could shoot .38 Super and make major for USPSA or IDPA (in IDPA it would be a custom defensive pistol and require it to make major) but also be shot with 9mm for paractice. I would think it should be able to handle .38 Super but would not want to feed it a steady diet of them.

Sam1911
September 17, 2009, 12:25 PM
in IDPA it would be a custom defensive pistol and require it to make major

It wouldn't be CDP (that's for .45 ACP autos), it would be ESR (Enhansed Service Revolver). It would need to hit 1,320 fps with a 125 gr. bullet to be elligible. Pretty hot, but possible. It would need to be able to take a steady diet of them. Most shooters who would pay to have such a thing built are going to shoot several matches (and maybe twice that many practices) a month. Even if you only shoot 9mm in practice (and I don't know any who want to shoot one thing in practice and switch to another for competition), you'd have to expect to run something like 3,600+ high-pressure rounds through it a year.

I'd love to do it, myself, but it's probably just easier to run a 646 or 610 and shoot .40 S&W. And even the 646s have issues when run hard (from what I've heard).

-Sam

earlthegoat2
September 17, 2009, 12:48 PM
Still a good deal here. I seem to remember a few threads a while back with people saying they needed a good house gun and to look for a Model 10 for 200 bucks. Unfortunately they dont exist anymore but here we have a SS option of the same thing as the 10 for around 200.

Better jump on it. Now.

Jim Watson
September 17, 2009, 12:50 PM
It would need to be able to take a steady diet of them.

I think .38 Super Major would be pushing .357 Magnum pressures. We read that K-Smith magnums don't do well with steady use of magnums and these guns are .38 specials to start with. Recoil would be stout, too. Not an option to me.

HardShell
September 17, 2009, 01:02 PM
... That said, finding police trade-in revolvers is getting harder and harder, and the asking prices aren't going down. For those who are not bothered by DAO actions, or are willing to pay to have them changed, these seem to me to be a good deal.

Have to agree. I have several S&Ws that were departmental trade-ins (autos and revolvers) and they were great values, esp. at the prices I got them for years ago.

If I didn't have more than I need already, I'd probably pick up one or two of these at this price. ;)

rklessdriver
September 17, 2009, 01:47 PM
I rember when Police trade in revolvers were everywhere in the mid 1990's. I regret not taking better advantage of all the Smith 686/586's that were availiable. I did buy a near new 586 for $350.00 and in about 1997 or so stupidly traded it away... :banghead: The guy I traded it to still has it and it's quote: "Not For Sale Ever".

The local gun shop/range I shoot at has a good supply of trade in Smith M15's and M64's. Not quite as cheap as JG, but cheap enough that last year I bought a M15 from them as a "project gun". My intended use was just for the range orginally - but after one trip to the range with it my SO claimed it as "hers". It was beat a little (finish wise) but mech it was in good shape and shot really well. I figured since she wanted it I would make it something special for her. I sent it to Matt Almeada at Revolver Armorer. He champer the cyls for easier reloads, fixed a small amout of end shake, did a small amount of action work on it and re-finish it (Parkerized).

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/rklessdriver/Weapons/DSC00938.jpg

It has quickly became her home defense gun. She flat loves the smooth DA trigger and everything that Matt did for us on it came out and works perfectly. It's simple, durable, reliable and everything has a purpose. The gun was cheap enough, that even after all the custom work - I have about the same money in it as a new Smith and Wesson revolver would have cost. Thats the beasuty of the Police Trade in IMO. Most require very little work to make mech perfect and they are the perfect base for you to build a custom gun.... or just leave it alone and shoot the heck out of it.

I do have a dream revolver that no one I know of has ever built. I'm thinking for my next project gun, one of those a M64's would be a perfect base gun.

Cut the barrel to 3", slab side the barrel, dovetailed front nite sight (or brass bead), Round Butt conversion, bead blasted finish and I really, really like the idea of a 9mm Par revolver with moon clips (my 625 is awesome). So sending it to Pinnical for the multi caliber conversion might be in the cards as well.
Will

captain awesome
September 17, 2009, 01:59 PM
wow, great deal. I am going to jump on that.

HardShell
September 17, 2009, 02:23 PM
...
I do have a dream revolver that no one I know of has ever built. I'm thinking for my next project gun, one of those a M64's would be a perfect base gun.

Cut the barrel to 3", slab side the barrel, dovetailed front nite sight (or brass bead), Round Butt conversion, bead blasted finish and I really, really like the idea of a 9mm Par revolver with moon clips (my 625 is awesome). So sending it to Pinnical for the multi caliber conversion might be in the cards as well.
Will

That's a custom piece I would envy -- hope you get around to it some day.

Great job on your wife's S&W, BTW. :)

Landric
September 17, 2009, 03:12 PM
I think the best way to make major in a K-frame (if one wants to shot it in ESR w/ a moon clip conversion) is the .38 Special. Making major in the .38 Special is quite possible, one just needs the right weight bullet. I have no problems getting 825 fps+ with a 200 grain LRN using either 2400 or HS-6. Data for 200 grain bullets in .38 Special is out there, and my loads (while warm for .38 Special) are no where near .357 Magnum levels, and therefore should be much easier on a K-frame.

420Stainless
September 17, 2009, 09:55 PM
I'm afraid I now fall into the bad eyes category too. They do present a tempting platform to try out something from Crimson Trace though.

David E
September 17, 2009, 10:10 PM
9x23 can be loaded to 1,300 fps with a 125 gr. JHP -- at 34,000 CUP.

The Winchester factory load is a 125 grain Silvertip JHP @ 1450 fps.

And I don't believe a .357 can push that same weight at 1900 fps from a 4" barrel.

earplug
September 17, 2009, 10:41 PM
I spent Wednesday evening shooting a local Steel Challenge match with a four inch DAO M-15. Rules say you can use a eight shot wheelgun, but i'm still having fun.
I was in a class by myself. I had fun and anyone of the DAO revolvers would be fun to shoot IDPA, Steel Challange or?
I have a M-65 that I drilled and tapped for a red dot sight. It works fine for Bullseye at fifty foot or 25 yards. If you have a fixed sight wheel gun you can't use due to the little sights, consider putting a scope base on it.
Most older LEO trade in guns won't be hurt in resale value by drilling and tapping three holes.

HardShell
September 18, 2009, 10:07 AM
I'm afraid I now fall into the bad eyes category too. They do present a tempting platform to try out something from Crimson Trace though.

I recently put CTC grips on one of my K-frames and have been very pleased with them. :)

MCgunner
September 18, 2009, 10:49 AM
I'd love to get a round butt 64. I'd like to put a 2" barrel on it, though.

gunnie
September 18, 2009, 06:48 PM
1--maybe they're sold out now, but both of the 64's i got from J&G coupla months ago were RB. one -3, and the other -5. modified the earlier model.

2--got a wolff light trigger return spring, did a little polishing, and lightened hammer spring. nice shooter for wife, now she HAS to shoot DA, single action blocked by a step machined into hammer.

3--i installed what may be the last bomar winged combat rib in captivity on it. cost $150 delivered. aristocrat makes basicly the same thing. also added pachmayr compac professional grips.

sweet shooting revolver for less than $500.

gunnie

Old Fuff
September 18, 2009, 08:24 PM
And again the Old Fuff will point out that as time goes by, fewer and fewer revolvers are hitting the police surplus market. In some cases the agencies' adminastrators are under orders to destroy any surplus firearms rather then sell or trade them in, or they are now into second, third and even forth generation pistols with revolvers long gone. :(

So in the future I don't expect that we'll see many deals like this, and when we do prices will be up.

Sometimes to wait is to loose. :uhoh:


















Note: In case anyone wonders, there is absolutely no connection between J&G Sales and the Old Fuff. I'm only interested in looking after our members best interests.

zt77
September 18, 2009, 08:42 PM
they had one 4" square butt in "very good+" earlier today...needless to say they are out of those now :D
they also had 20 "very good" NY-1 square butts.

Old Fuff
September 18, 2009, 09:15 PM
Usually they grade used guns on the basis of cosmetics - in other words how they look.

In the case of a stainless gun that can be cleaned up with a little tender-loving-care this doesn't bother me much. So long as it lowers the price I really don't care. ;)

That said, since they first put them on the 'net day before yesterday I suspect they are going out the door.

KyJim
September 18, 2009, 10:16 PM
I just purchased a police trade in 65-3 locally. It was DA/SA. It locked up tight and was in good shape mechanically. It had a little forcing cone wear but there are still lots of rounds left to be shot through it. Plus, I plan on mostly shooting .38s. Anyway, the action was very smooth and the fixed sights were dead-on with 158 gr. bullets. I spent more than those at J&G but this was already delivered. If the ones at J&G are of comparable quality, then they are good to go.

And a little polish went a long way in cleaning it up.

http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x223/KyJim_photos/?action=view&current=SW_Model_65-3_DSCN1608.jpg

Quoheleth
September 18, 2009, 10:20 PM
I understand what the physical difference is between a square & round butt, but is one or the other preferred in a revolver? What's the difference, performance-wise?

Q

KyJim
September 19, 2009, 01:33 AM
You tend to see square butts more in the "service" and target pistols, round butts more in "detective" or concealed carry type guns. The round butts conceal better. The square butts give a bit better grip and control. At least that's been my experience.

Old Fuff
September 19, 2009, 08:23 AM
Besides the concealment issue, some departments purchased the round-butt service revolvers for female or other officers with small hands. Other departments that required they're officers to be armed when off-duty also prefered the round-butt design.

In the longer-then-two-inch-barrel configuration you don't see many factory original round-butts. You can convert a square-butt to round-butt, but not the other way around.

Geneseo1911
September 19, 2009, 09:43 AM
I had been thinking about one of these (they've had them for a long time); but I was wondering, what would be involved in making one of them SA capable? Replace the hammer? Weld a spur back onto it? Or is it much more involved than that?

Old Fuff
September 19, 2009, 10:12 AM
Those that are interested in these revolvers might enjoy the report in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=475608

Old Fuff
September 19, 2009, 10:22 AM
but I was wondering, what would be involved in making one of them SA capable? Replace the hammer? Weld a spur back onto it? Or is it much more involved than that?

You may not know until the revolver is disassembled and examined, but usually only the hammer was altered. The single-action notch was removed as was the hammer spur. Any non-MIM hammer made for a center-fire K-frame revolver with the post-1957 "short-action" will work. Fitting by a gunsmith may be, or may not be, required. If you purchase a hammer get a hammer assemby with the internal parts so that you don't have to switch them out of the original hammer.

At most, both a hammer and trigger replacement would be required.

gunnie
September 19, 2009, 11:55 AM
..."Usually they grade used guns on the basis of cosmetics - in other words how they look."...

true, but J&G also has their 'smith(s) check them out before putting them up for sale.

..."The square butts give a bit better grip and control. At least that's been my experience."...

personal opinion only, but i prefer the round butt for double action use. less muzzle flip upon firing due to it pushing more straight back, rather than rolling upward. same a mechanical function of having more force imparted at the bottom of the grip by the section removed for RB configurations. you should try both designs yourself before deciding which YOU like.

..."but I was wondering, what would be involved in making one of them SA capable? Replace the hammer? Weld a spur back onto it? Or is it much more involved than that?"...

guess i shouldda been paying more attention when i had the side plate off, but i wasn't interested in going back to single action use anywaze. without another teardown, i can't say for sure whether there was a single action sear on the hammer or not. it wouldn't really matter though, as the two i recieved both have a "step" on the rear hammer radius that will not allow it any more travel than the DA action releases at.

SAME DISCLAIMER AS OLD FUFF, NOT WORKING FOR J&G!!! NO MONETARY REWARDS, OR PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT FROM THEM FOR SALES INCURRED BY THIS POSTING. [HOW COULD I PROVE MY WORDS CAUSED A SALE ANYWAY?] JUST TRYNNA PASS ON WHAT I FEEL TO BE A HELLUVA DEAL TO FELLOW FORUMSTERS.

gunnie

MCgunner
September 19, 2009, 12:05 PM
1--maybe they're sold out now, but both of the 64's i got from J&G coupla months ago were RB. one -3, and the other -5. modified the earlier model.

A 3" round butt is an awesome carry. :D

i was thinkin' that 1917 I bought 20 years ago was from J&G, but I don't really remember. I had an FFL then before Clinton put the scare in me and I dropped it. Where ever I got that thing, and I bought a lot of stuff off J&G, it was billed as "NRA good" and when it came, it was unshootable and in sad condition generally. I expected it to be crusty, but it was loose and ill timed. I had a smith work it over and he told me to take it easy on the loads. I should have kept it as a collector, but as it wouldn't shoot lead bullets (shallow rifling), I sold it.

Anyway, I don't much like buying sight unseen anymore and don't have an FFL anyway.

..."The square butts give a bit better grip and control. At least that's been my experience."...

personal opinion only, but i prefer the round butt for double action use. less muzzle flip upon firing due to it pushing more straight back, rather than rolling upward. same a mechanical function of having more force imparted at the bottom of the grip by the section removed for RB configurations. you should try both designs yourself before deciding which YOU like.

Not only that, but the round butt is a lot easier to conceal. Square butts tend to bulge more under a T shirt.

Geneseo1911
September 19, 2009, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the info, Fuff. I had assumed that the hammer was simply bobbed off, I didn't think they would go so far as to remove the notch on the hammer.

gunnie
September 19, 2009, 12:48 PM
...A 3" round butt is an awesome carry."...

guess i should have been more specific. "-3"= dash three, an engineering change designation, added as a suffix to the model 64 stamping.

as in:

64-3 and 64-5. NOT a barrel length reference, both were 4" flavor.

gunnie

MAKster
September 19, 2009, 02:00 PM
I doubt these are police trade-ins. Most departments switched to semi-autos 15 years ago. I suspect these are from security guard companies.

gunnie
September 19, 2009, 02:43 PM
..."I doubt these are police trade-ins."...

at their website, J&G says, "This product was added to our catalog on Tuesday January 06, 2009." the flyer they sent that put me on this trail back last spring said they were police turn ins.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nypd#Service_Pistols

..."Officers of the NYPD are issued a 9mm service pistol that fires in DAO (Double Action Only). Currently authorized pistols for new officers to select from include the SIG P226 DAO, Smith & Wesson 5946 DAO, and Glock 19. All are modified to a 12 pound (53 N) trigger pull. Senior officers who joined prior to January 1st 1994 are still authorized to carry Smith & Wesson Model 64 & Model 10 .38 Special revolvers."...

so i'd guess these were issued iron turn-ins from pre-'94 retiring officers.

gunnie

Old Fuff
September 19, 2009, 06:21 PM
You may be right concerning the NY-1 revolvers, although I'm not certain they were sold exclusively to the NYCPD.

In any case I'm sure they come from some law enforcement background, because they seem to all be DAO conversions.

Also my feeble memory is trying to tell me that Mayor Broomburg ordered that all surplus police handguns (that would include turn-ins) were to be destroyed to keep them out of the wrong hands (meaning us). They could have come from retired officers that kept their revolvers (they had to pay for them in the first place), but they're seem to be too many at one time for that to be the case.

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