Am I using too much crimp?


PDA






blazerking78
September 17, 2009, 12:26 PM
The title says it all. If I am how much is needed on an auto pistol. I've read the crimping thread, but I just wanted to have my work double checked by those of you with a lot more experience then I have. The bullet on the left was pulled after I got the dies set up and the other is new.

If you enjoyed reading about "Am I using too much crimp?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
rcmodel
September 17, 2009, 12:30 PM
Yep! Too much.
It appears from the bullet photo that the crimped one has had the jacket compressed making the bullet wasp-wasted.

A proper taper crimp has the brass just kissing the bullet but not compressing into it.

rc

blazerking78
September 17, 2009, 12:34 PM
Thanks RC. Will this much crimp lead to over pressure? Should the bullet not have any marks one it has been cripmed?

Walkalong
September 17, 2009, 12:34 PM
Yep, way too much crimp.

Example of .45 ACP Crimp. 40 should be the same. Like rcmodel said, just enough to remove the bell, maybe a hair more.

Pic link (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=78940&d=1211818258)

rcmodel
September 17, 2009, 12:41 PM
Should the bullet not have any marks one it has been cripmed? Zactly!

I said:
A proper taper crimp has the brass just kissing the bullet but not compressing into it.

Your excess crimp will not cause any pressure problems, unless the "loose" too tight crimp lets the bullet compress into the case during feeding.

What? :what:
Compressing the bullet with the crimp may actually lead to a looser bullet fit then you had from neck tension alone.

The soft lead core of the bullet has no "spring-back" like the harder brass case.
SO, when the round comes out of the crimp die, the case springs back a little, but the soft bullet doesn't.
Thats why no amount of taper crimp can make up for insuficient neck tension to start with.

Your damaged bullets may not be as accurate though.

rc

The Bushmaster
September 17, 2009, 12:41 PM
Over pressure? Probably not. .45 ACP is a relative low pressure round in the first place...I AM assuming that is a .45 ACP...

Walkalong
September 17, 2009, 12:49 PM
Looks like a 4 tay to me. :D

blazerking78
September 17, 2009, 12:59 PM
Yes it is a 45. Fooortayyy is for wappers. I reset my die and came up with this. Let me know what you think.

rcmodel
September 17, 2009, 01:04 PM
It looks more better but it's hard to tell from photo's.

Lay a steel rule, or the edge of your dial caliper against the case and see if there is any daylight showing where the bell used to be.

All you want to accomplish with the taper crimp is to remove the bell and make the case wall perfectly straight again.

rc

The Bushmaster
September 17, 2009, 01:04 PM
Looks good to me...Don't know about the other two "critics" on here, but......:evil:

ants
September 17, 2009, 01:06 PM
Depending upon the type of crimp die you use, case length affects the amount of crimp.

Even though I don't trim auto pistol brass, I certainly trim 357 and 44 mag so I get the consistent revolver crimp I need.

Anthony

blazerking78
September 17, 2009, 01:08 PM
I realy appriciate all the help from every one.

Drail
September 17, 2009, 10:39 PM
Before you load a round hold an empty case up to a good light source and sight down the side of the case. Can you see the flare of the mouth? Now load and crimp a round until you can't see any flare looking down the side of the case. Then crimp just a little more. I mean just a little bit more. That's all you really want to do a semi auto round, just remove the flare because the round has to stop in the chamber on the mouth.

xmanpike
September 17, 2009, 10:48 PM
after viewing this i think i may have been over crimping my bullets. is there any danger to this or just a possible loss of accuracy?

The Bushmaster
September 17, 2009, 11:16 PM
If you do crimp them tooo much you stand a chance of the cartridge going too deep into the chamber and out of reach of the firing pin...

Walkalong
September 17, 2009, 11:56 PM
The second crimp looks very good. I was fooled on the first pic. It looked longer for some reason. :uhoh:

ants
September 18, 2009, 12:57 AM
Well yes, Anthony, when a 45 caliber looks like 40 caliber, I believe that the crimp is a bit too tight! Don't you?

:neener::p:neener:

FROGO207
September 18, 2009, 01:04 AM
Is that a one size fits all bullet? I gotta get me some of them. :D

lindy
September 18, 2009, 01:28 AM
if you take a look at the base of the case in the second pic, it appears there is some damage to the rim------ Be Carefull..

tlen
September 18, 2009, 02:43 AM
Generally .45ACP should be crimped in the range .469-.471".

blazerking78
September 18, 2009, 02:58 AM
The damage to the case head has been discussed in a different thread. My newest 1911 didn't have all of the proper machining done to the breach face. A very small part on the edge is raised and causing the casing to dent. Its no biggie, I have ordered files to correct the problem. Its small enough that it would not be worth it to me to send it in to Taurus. :cool:

I miked all my cases in the test batch and they are all at .470 to .471.

I have to say that I love my RCBS bullet puller. I would waste alot of brass and bullets trying to get every thing correct.:)

David E
September 18, 2009, 03:06 AM
Run a few thru the loading cycle of the gun and see if the bullet is pushed back into the case.

THAT can cause serious over pressure problems far worse than a little too much crimp.

I don't care if I indent the pistol bullet with the crimp as long as the bullet does not set back into the case during the trip up the feedramp.

Safety first.

Walkalong
September 18, 2009, 08:59 AM
when a 45 caliber looks like 40 caliber, I believe that the crimp is a bit too tight!I knew someone would say that. :D


A very small part on the edge is raised and causing the casing to dentIt should not cause that dent, it should only stamp a small, very shallow (.005ish) indention in the case.

Steve C
September 18, 2009, 01:00 PM
The purpose of the crimp is to hold the bullet and prevent set back during feeding, any more than needed to perform these functions may be considered excessive.

The proof however, is in the shooting not in how it looks or what they measure. If they shoot well who cares how much the crimp is?

Walkalong
September 18, 2009, 01:15 PM
As long as it doesn't adversely affect function, and shoots well, it doesn't matter, much.

Beelzy
September 19, 2009, 03:56 PM
You don't "crimp" pistol ammo that headspaces on the case mouth people.

One only removes the "bell" on the case from expanding, that's it.

If you need to crimp .40 and .45 ammo and it's not a cast lead bullet with a "Crimp Groove", you're doing it wrong.

blazerking78
September 19, 2009, 11:10 PM
Not to nit pick or argue but.... isnt removing the bell done by.. well.. crimping the case mouth back to proper size? At first I was going way overboard with it but I think I have it ironed out now. I have tested them in my pistol and they chamber good and do not push the bullet into the case any further. They are the same length going in as when they come out unfired.

Rember foorrrtayys are for wappers.:neener:

Walkalong
September 20, 2009, 10:37 AM
In auto calibers neck tension is needed to stop the bullet from being pushed back in the case. The crimp is for removing the bell for good function, but it won't make up for poor neck tension.

To help maintain good neck tension, don't overbell your cases, just enough to get the bullet started straight with no lead shaving.

No amount of crimp can make up for poor neck tension, in auto's or revolvers. Over crimping can ruin neck tension though.

Cloudpeak
September 20, 2009, 11:15 AM
As Walkalong stated so correctly:
In auto calibers neck tension is needed to stop the bullet from being pushed back in the case. The crimp is for removing the bell for good function, but it won't make up for poor neck tension.

To help maintain good neck tension, don't overbell your cases, just enough to get the bullet started straight with no lead shaving.

No amount of crimp can make up for poor neck tension, in auto's or revolvers. Over crimping can ruin neck tension though.

Bullet retention is a function of your sizer die and/or the expander plug. When first setting up for loading a new pistol cartridge, I like to make up some dummies, drop them in the chamber (with barrel removed) to check for fit and then cycle them through the pistol several times to test for setback.

Record the COAL before test chambering and then cycle them through the pistol with the dummy in the mag and by dropping the slide to chamber. I do this 6 or 7 times, checking for setback each trip through. If I get setback, I turn down the expander plug a bit until setback is no longer a problem.

Roccobro
September 20, 2009, 08:09 PM
A Winchester factory Q load for reference.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/nielsenjt/IMG_8546.jpg

Justin

Steve C
September 20, 2009, 08:23 PM
You don't "crimp" pistol ammo that headspaces on the case mouth people.

Nonsense, every factory semi auto cartridge you buy is taper crimped and crimp does hold the bullet tighter in place. With soft bullets like lead or copper clad the crimp doesn't hold as well but with jacketed a good taper crimp will correct any set back problems you may be geting when the round feeds.

You don't want to crimp smaller than the end of the chamber dimension so the bullet could slip past it nor do you want to use a roll crimp on a semi auto that headspaces on the case mouth.

Beelzy
September 20, 2009, 10:58 PM
Great.....start confusing folks with "Taper Crimp" now.

I don't see any taper crimps on my factory .45 ammo FWIW. Maybe you are thinking of
the infamous Factory Crimp??

230therapy
September 20, 2009, 11:03 PM
Calipers + recommendation in reloading manual = happy shooting

Seriously, if you cannot follow instructions, you shouldn't be reloading. It's only a few ten thousands of PSI one inch from your hand. Don't be a Darwin Candidate. Read your manuals and follow them. The ABC's of Reloading is a good way to start.

Walkalong
September 20, 2009, 11:20 PM
Steve C is right. All auto calibers are taper crimped. It is not much of a crimp, just enough to remove the bell and a little more. It does help hold the bullet. My point about neck tension is it is what does 90 plus % of the work in auto calibers holding a bullet put and not being set back.

Some folks are under the impression that the crimp does all of it and a good crimp will fix poor neck tension. It will not in an auto because there can not be enough of it due to the round headspacing of the case mouth. With revolver rounds we can crimp pretty heavily and it can help neck tension out a great deal more, but I still say it can not make up for poor neck tension by its self as far as good ignition is concerned. You need both.

243winxb
September 21, 2009, 08:31 AM
Lee dies taper then roll crimp. Looks like your going past the taper part of the die and hitting the roll crimp on some of your loaded rounds. Case length will have something to do with this. When setting up you crimp dies, adjust it using the longest case of the lot. What bullet are you using, plated??

Walkalong
September 21, 2009, 09:09 AM
Lee roll crimp dies for revolver cailber have a taper leading to the roll, but their auto caliber crimp dies just have a taper.

243winxb
September 22, 2009, 10:39 AM
Lee roll crimp dies for revolver cailber have a taper leading to the roll, but their auto caliber crimp dies just have a taper. Good to know, ty I was going by whats on Lees website. Carbide die set

Carbide handgun dies contain the carbide sizer, the powder through expanding die, the seater/crimping die, a powder dipper, shell holder and load data. The seater/crimper die applies a modified taper crimp and eventually a roll crimp negating the need for a separate taper crimp die.

Tinpig
September 22, 2009, 10:58 AM
As an aside, the Lee Classic loader kits for .45 ACP (and for 9mm and M1 Carbine) don't provide a flaring tool and instruct you not to crimp. After resizing, you chamfer the inside of the case mouth and seat the bullet with no crimp, on account of headspacing on the case mouth.

Tinpig

Walkalong
September 22, 2009, 11:41 AM
I was going by whats on Lees websiteI was going by looking in the dies. :)

243winxb
September 23, 2009, 05:33 PM
Email reply from Lee Re: 45 ACP Die
Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:43 AM
From:
"Lee Precision" <info@leeprecision.com>
View contact details
To:
"Joe1944usa" <joe1944usa@yahoo.com>
The seater/crimper die in all of our Carbide Die Sets (including 45 ACP) does both a taper crimp and roll crimp as stated in the die explanation you have below.

Thank You
Lee Precision

At 10:16 PM 9/22/2009, you wrote:
> HI, Does the seater/crimper die in the 45 acp Carbide die set do both, taper and roll crimp?? As stated in your Die set explanations? "Carbide die set
>
> Carbide handgun dies contain the carbide sizer, the powder through expanding die, the seater/crimping die, a powder dipper, shell holder and load data. The seater/crimper die applies a modified taper crimp and eventually a roll crimp negating the need for a separate taper crimp die." Thank you, Joe. :)

Walkalong
September 23, 2009, 09:25 PM
All I can say is my .32 auto & .40 S&W seater both have a crimp "ledge" that looks like a very steep taper crimp ledge or a very tapered roll crimp ledge, but there are definitely not two defined surfaces. The Redding Profile Crimp die has a standard looking tapered spot found in taper crimp dies, and it leads into a standard looking sharp angled ledge like a standard roll crimp die has. Two distinct crimp surfaces stacked together. The Lee dies simply do not. Maybe the new ones do (these are 2 to 3 years), but these do not.

My Lee .32 long seater has a standard looking steep angled ledge in it to roll crimp. No taper, no dual crimp surface.

I have a Lee .38 Super seater that I don't use running around here somewhere that I can't find, but it won't roll crimp either. I did use it for a while before I replaced it with a Dillon.

So I dunno.....:)

243winxb
September 24, 2009, 07:53 AM
http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html It would seem Lee modified there dies in 1986, so a separate taper crimp die is no longer needed. The new die tapers and rolls all in 1 die. Old dies would look different for sure. :) Lee Taper Crimp Die

These dies offer little or no advantage when used wth 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already modified taper crimp. Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove.

Walkalong
September 24, 2009, 09:00 AM
Since I bought my Lee .32 L & .32 ACP dies a couple of years ago, they must have been sitting on the shelf a long time. Another thing to consider is Lee's advertising. They stretch/twist things a little. Not knocking Lee, They are an important part of the reloading market, but Mr Lee has a wonderful way with words.

If they want to call that 45ish degree ledge a "modified taper crimp" that will roll crimp also, so be it. I'll just disagree with Mr Lee. The "taper crimp" is at a severe angle, and is going to make adjustment to only remove the bell very critical, but it will do a pretty good roll crimp, although not as tight/short of a curve as a standard roll crimp die. :)

The Bushmaster
September 24, 2009, 10:44 AM
4 or 5 years ago I called Lee to find out if my 9mmX19 and .45 ACP die set were roll crimp or taper crimp. The answer I got was that both were and are taper crimp...

If you enjoyed reading about "Am I using too much crimp?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!