Private sale, or off paper gun sales?


PDA






mig7410
September 17, 2009, 04:16 PM
Many of my friends prefer to buy their guns though a private sale, or off paper. They can legally buy guns at a store but prefer not to leave a paper trail.
Is there any benefit in doing this? It seems like the prices are not such a good deal compaired to just buying a brand new gun at a store.

If you enjoyed reading about "Private sale, or off paper gun sales?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
3pairs12
September 17, 2009, 04:28 PM
I think generally you can get them cheaper and maybe with some goodies that you would have to track down and buy later if you went the brand new route. Some people just want to keep their guns invisible and thats not a bad idea. I am niether here nor there. There are a good number of guns that Ilike and they don't make anymore ala private sale.

atblis
September 17, 2009, 04:32 PM
No taxes
No paperwork
In many states, you can buy handguns when you're 18.

TexasRifleman
September 17, 2009, 04:42 PM
Is there any benefit in doing this? It seems like the prices are not such a good deal compaired to just buying a brand new gun at a store.

There are literally thousands and thousands of models that you can't buy new at a store any longer. Out of production, out of stock, custom models, etc.

That alone is a good reason why people do private sales.

Staying "off paper" may be attractive to some but that's not the primary reason for doing private sales for most people I don't think.

Many times it's the only way to get what you really want.

jimmyraythomason
September 17, 2009, 04:46 PM
What TexasRifleman said +1.

Cosmoline
September 17, 2009, 04:56 PM
If you know where to look the prices can be lower ftf than at the FFL. I've gotten some deals that almost make me feel guilty. Almost. Folks who are selling their dead uncle's guns or just cleaning house aren't usually interested in turning a profit, so they'll be happy to recoup 80% of what they paid or less. No store can afford to do that.

As far as staying under the radar, it's true there's no NICS forms, but there is a guy who meets you, shakes your hand, knows your email and phone, probably knows a little about you and maybe where you live or work. And there's probably an email exchange. It's not as if you'd be able to get up to mischief with any impunity.

DMK
September 17, 2009, 05:15 PM
I never got the whole "no paperwork, under the radar" thing. OK, so say the govt decides to confiscate everyone's guns. They come get your guns that are recorded in the gun shop's bound books. But you still have a couple undocumented private purchases. Now what? You are now armed with an illegal weapon. You can't shoot it at the range. Even if you defended yourself with it, you'd be going to jail for the felony weapons charge.

M2 Carbine
September 17, 2009, 05:44 PM
Generally the gun is a "good deal" or I wouldn't be buying it.
No taxes.
No paper trail.

Just two days ago I bought a beautiful 2 inch S&W Model 10 FTF.
Swap money, swap gun.
I love it when I can end a paper trail on a gun.:)

oneounceload
September 17, 2009, 08:34 PM
Now what? You are now armed with an illegal weapon. You can't shoot it at the range. Even if you defended yourself with it, you'd be going to jail for the felony weapons charge.

To some folks, it feels like an insurance policy....they will still have a gun for survival or defense - whether against criminals or their gov't......some folks view that as an option worth having....whether that is something you value, you will have to determine

hogshead
September 17, 2009, 08:44 PM
not if you hide the body.

Bruno2
September 17, 2009, 09:00 PM
DMK ;The govt comes and confiscates your guns "now you have an illegal gun "

I am pretty sure the whole "take it to the range" deal is pretty much out of the picture at this point .:uhoh:

Yes you then would have an illegal gun to defend yourself against a tyrranical govt .

I like the cash and carry for the most part b/c it shows the Brady bunch that bg check law is pointless .

BG checks dont keep criminals from buying guns and if for some reason buying guns period became illegal then this wouldnt keep the criminals from having them either . :what:

FROGO207
September 17, 2009, 11:04 PM
It really doesn't matter if there is a paper trail or not. If you can sell FTF legally then you could "sell" your firearm to "someone" not known or remembered.:evil: Where is it now? :confused: You are not required to keep track of where it went, only to make sure the buyer is legally able to own. Your memory may be bad and it gets "put away"with ammo and forgotten until above posters situation happens.:D Or did you "sell" it because of needed cash or it got broke? You will never need this however as the gov will not ever take your guns.:uhoh:

huntsman
September 17, 2009, 11:23 PM
Is there any benefit in doing this?

yes if no paper trail is important to you.

the paper trail started in 1968 so there was a whole bunch of gun sales that never needed any paper at all.

CapnMac
September 17, 2009, 11:28 PM
Well, there's a benefit the other way. You can sell FTF for more than you'd get taking the same item into a pawn shop or gun store--best they'd likely front is half retail. FTF you can get much closer to 3/4 retail, and it's still a good deal for the buyer and for the seller

Kor
September 17, 2009, 11:36 PM
I never got the whole "no paperwork, under the radar" thing. OK, so say the govt decides to confiscate everyone's guns. They come get your guns that are recorded in the gun shop's bound books. But you still have a couple undocumented private purchases. Now what? You are now armed with an illegal weapon. You can't shoot it at the range. Even if you defended yourself with it, you'd be going to jail for the felony weapons charge.

1. Take as much training and get as proficient as you can, BEFORE gun possession is criminalized;

2. You can still dry-fire in the privacy of your own home, unless the government has installed surveillance cameras in addition to criminalizing gun possession;

3. If gun possession has been criminalized, and you defend yourself with an off-paper gun - assuming there are no witnesses, BEAT FEET AND DITCH THE GUN. If it's really off-paper, if/when the gun is found, the first door that gets knocked on will be the first purchaser of record...just hope that, for your sake, he develops amnesia, keeps very poor records(if at all), or dies of (un)natural causes before he is interrogated;

4. Felony gun possession charge or not, AT LEAST YOU'RE STILL ALIVE. If things are really so bad that you'd rather be DEAD than in prison, maybe it IS a good idea to have one or two off-paper guns...

Isher
September 18, 2009, 12:00 AM
Hmmm, unconfuse me -

Can anyone quote me chapter and verse in either

Federal or State Law that requires

1.) The intervention of a licensed gun dealer in a private party sale, other
than sending through the mail, and

2.) The required registration of any and all guns in your posession?


just curious

isher

wishn4more
September 18, 2009, 12:20 AM
If it passes, then it it the answer to both your points. Yeah it's real. It's still active in House Subcommittee. Look it up, we need to be active to make sure it doesn't happen.

PT1911
September 18, 2009, 12:34 AM
this PAPER TRAIL.. is rediculous.. lets see.. no registration in alabama... what happened to the gun you purchased 5 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, or 5 minutes ago?

"You know what.. I sold that gun.. I realized it was an impulse buy and really could not afford it. His name? Oh man, I will try to find it for you."


if you are doing it for a good deal, go for it.. but, at this point, in the free world (california excluded) your paper trail is nothing to worry about....

bigfatdave
September 18, 2009, 12:34 AM
Ever heard of HR 45? Well, at least you didn't start yet another new thread on this tired and silly subject.
Read the Snopes article for a real evaluation of HR45, please ... it has died a quiet death in committee with no sponsors before, and it will again. There are more immediate infringments on your civil rights to worry about.

D-Day
September 18, 2009, 09:15 AM
I do it mainly because I can find a better deal than at a shop/dealer on the particular models I like, and there's more opportunity to haggle on the price. Not to mention if they're used modestly it takes a ton off the price sometimes. Plus I hate paperwork and writing. Wouldn't make sense for me to do it to "stay under the radar", since I have my CHL anyway.

sourdough44
September 18, 2009, 11:13 AM
FTF is my favorite.

tdog69
September 18, 2009, 11:28 AM
never really thought about paper or no paper, but I will be going this Sunday to the flea market to see if I can pick up a cheap 22LR to refurb where else can you get a good cheap gun to customize.

Now that I think of it I only have one registered gun to my name, the rest our collectors that may have had paper work at one time.

DeepSouth
September 18, 2009, 11:31 AM
Even if you defended yourself with it, you'd be going to jail for the felony weapons charge.

But you would still be alive...........Better to judged by 12

mcdonl
September 18, 2009, 12:40 PM
I like to use "Toy equity" for part of all of a firearms, or any toy purchase so FTF is what I mainly do... but... many times in the last year or so retail prices are more realistic.

Pweller
September 18, 2009, 02:08 PM
Does anyone worry about buying a stolen gun? Has anyone ever run into trouble like this? I don't think there is any way to check and see if a gun is stolen before buying it. I know that the police can take stolen property away from you, and your money is gone.

I guess if you only buy from CCW holders you should be fine, but that would surely limit your opportunities.

content
September 18, 2009, 08:24 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // +1 post #4

I think it is fine if your knowledge is up to it. I take a magnifer, flashlight and a friend if possible.

As for stolen // I usually tell seller I am registering firearm. Only had one guy pull back a Ruger Blackhawk. So I bought a Redhawk from another guy them 4years later sold it to a different guy to fund car transmission grr.

But yes its done all the time. Bill of sale is a good idea. Ask to check sellers I.D. too, if they balk ....well there you go .

22-rimfire
September 18, 2009, 09:32 PM
Under the government radar???? I felt that way for a few years, but I don't particularly worry about it any more. I prefer to buy from a gunshop/FFL dealer. If the government ever required registration, I'd have to think about what I wanted known about the private sale pieces. I'd be afraid to shoot them if I declined to register them, so more than likely I would have them documented. So far, registration has not ever been an issue in any state I've lived in.

daorhgih
September 19, 2009, 12:55 PM
DMK, quote: " OK, so say the govt decides to confiscate everyone's guns. They come get your guns that are recorded in the gun shop's bound books. But you still have a couple undocumented private purchases. Now what? You are now armed with an illegal weapon. You can't shoot it at the range. Even if you defended yourself with it, you'd be going to jail for the felony weapons charge." You have hit the Second Amendment's whole purpose in the Constitution! "They" come get your guns!?!?!? Not at my house they can't. But I do have bill of sale with a signature that matches driver's license. (To MacDonald: U shd prolly lrn 2 txt.)

Buck Nekkid
September 19, 2009, 02:03 PM
I really liked to buy FTF when I lived in Las Vegas, why? To avoid the mandatory handgun registration in that fair city. What they don't know, they can't take

alfack
September 19, 2009, 09:28 PM
It works out perfect if you just stole a gun and want to convert it to cash or, if you are a convicted felon/illegal alien looking to get your shoot on.

I'd rather be sure that the gun I am buying is not stolen, or the gun I am selling is not going to someone that can't legally own one.

Every time I see a request for "FTF only" or "how much is this gun worth?" The first thing that goes through my mind is you are a convicted felon or you stole something and are trying to figure out how much your loot is worth. Believe me, I am not a fan of the government at all, but I despise low life crooks even more.

22-rimfire
September 19, 2009, 09:55 PM
I don't mind buying FTF. I do it at shows and other places from time to time. It is just not a priority with me. If a dealer had the gun I want, I buy it. If an individual has the gun I want, then I buy it. I keep track of where guns were purchased, whether a 4473 was completed, and if possible the individual's name in a FTF purchase or sale. I do that for ME, not out of some deep concern that I'm going to loose my firearms through govt confiscation. If confiscation happened, I'd find a way to buy the firearms I needed. The sad part is I'd be a criminal then and that is not my style.

fattboyzz
September 19, 2009, 10:13 PM
dont matter that much to me either way .......ftf cash/trade or goin thru an ffl .....

but private transactions have made some good friends I otherwise never would have had !

oneounceload
September 19, 2009, 10:52 PM
Hmmm, unconfuse me -

Can anyone quote me chapter and verse in either

Federal or State Law that requires

1.) The intervention of a licensed gun dealer in a private party sale, other
than sending through the mail, and

2.) The required registration of any and all guns in your posession?


just curious

isher

There are several states that require this - do a search on here, TFL and other sites

22-rimfire
September 19, 2009, 10:55 PM
Pennsylvania requires this for handguns. There are exceptions for certain family members. I don't have the legal reference but most private sales have to go through a FFL dealer. Make your deal and go to FFL dealer to complete the transfer. Maryland has this requirement as well as I recall.

craZ4Gunz
September 20, 2009, 02:06 AM
MD private sales can be done through either a FFL or the MSP (State Police).
MSP is usually cheaper. The 4473 paperwork has to be done regardless.

pwatts2
September 20, 2009, 11:28 AM
When considering a private sale is there any way a private citizen can check serial #'s to insure the gun in question is legit?

M2 Carbine
September 20, 2009, 11:51 AM
This usually comes up in these FTF sales threads.

So what happens if you filled out the 4473 form and later sell the gun FTF, then it is used in a killing?

The answer, nothing.

Years ago I bought a new gun and filled out the 4473. Later I sold it FTF.

A couple years later a Police Detective called me and told me "my' gun was used in a killing. He didn't say if the person needed killing or not.

I said, "It wasn't me. I (legally) sold the gun a couple years ago and I have no idea where the gun is".
He said, "OK".

Now if you are a dope dealer or some other kind of shady character the conversation might go differently but then I doubt if you could buy a gun from a FFL dealer anyhow.

huntsman
September 20, 2009, 06:56 PM
This usually comes up in these FTF sales threads.

So what happens if you filled out the 4473 form and later sell the gun FTF, then it is used in a killing?

The answer, nothing.

Years ago I bought a new gun and filled out the 4473. Later I sold it FTF.

A couple years later a Police Detective called me and told me "my' gun was used in a killing. He didn't say if the person needed killing or not.

I said, "It wasn't me. I (legally) sold the gun a couple years ago and I have no idea where the gun is".
He said, "OK".

Now if you are a dope dealer or some other kind of shady character the conversation might go differently but then I doubt if you could buy a gun from a FFL dealer anyhow.
yep but the paper trail worked because they traced the gun back to you.

wilkersk
September 20, 2009, 07:03 PM
Good deals to be had, as previously posted. Just make sure you can trust the seller. There are several websites you can check serial numbers for possibly stolen firearms.
Make sure you are familiar with the firearm you're buying off paper.

If you don't know how to check a weapon for proper function,you could be buying someone elses POS (Piece of SORRYGOODFORNOTHINGJUNK) -And you thought I was using naughty words again!

dieselkanic
September 20, 2009, 08:58 PM
It works out perfect if you just stole a gun and want to convert it to cash or, if you are a convicted felon/illegal alien looking to get your shoot on.

I'd rather be sure that the gun I am buying is not stolen, or the gun I am selling is not going to someone that can't legally own one.

Every time I see a request for "FTF only" or "how much is this gun worth?" The first thing that goes through my mind is you are a convicted felon or you stole something and are trying to figure out how much your loot is worth. Believe me, I am not a fan of the government at all, but I despise low life crooks even more.

I really think you are making a rather large leap to reach such a conclusion.

I know a number of upstanding law abiding people who prefer to buy guns with no paper trail.

The government is NOT your friend.

JMHO

shibbykins
October 27, 2009, 02:38 PM
sorry to bring this back up.

So since FTF is so popular then im guessing there is not federal law that says you HAVE to register your handguns? or am I mistaken?

paul
October 27, 2009, 03:31 PM
That's correct, Shibby...
There is currently no federal firearms register.

I, pesonally, prefer FTF.

And I am a stickler for following every little itty-bitty part of the laws here in your state.

If I KNOW that you are prohibited, I don't sell to you.

Of course, if I don't know a damned thing about you, I am following the law, to the letter, if I sell you a firearm.:evil:
p

cleetus03
October 27, 2009, 03:38 PM
Many of my friends prefer to buy their guns though a private sale, or off paper. Is there any benefit in doing this?

Yeah there is.........The feeling of being a Red-Blooded Free American Man!

FTF sales eliminate the BS bureaucratic legal process completely and are one of the greatest gun freedoms we Americans have!

p.s.

Other than allowing a Private seller to glance at my driver license to make sure I'm a resident of the state.........:scrutiny:If a FTF seller ever required me to record/sign any information about me in regard to the transaction. (just to make him feel good) I'd politely give him a lecture on what Private Sales mean to me as an American & walk away.

If I want to sign some BS paper trail, Its going to be done solely for a gun bought from a dealer. To each his own.:)

shibbykins
October 27, 2009, 03:45 PM
thank you paul. i was involved in a casual debate the other night about this with a buddy of mine. he couldnt find said regulation :D

Werewolf
October 27, 2009, 03:54 PM
yep but the paper trail worked because they traced the gun back to you.

No. It did not.

IF the intent is to catch a criminal with a trace then it failed. The trail stopped at the last recorded legal owner as it almost always does. Cold. This is why gun registration is bogus and nothing more than a way for govt to wield power over its citizens and make a few sheep feel safe.

huntsman
October 27, 2009, 04:09 PM
No. It did not.

IF the intent is to catch a criminal with a trace then it failed. The trail stopped at the last recorded legal owner as it almost always does. Cold. This is why gun registration is bogus and nothing more than a way for govt to wield power over its citizens and make a few sheep feel safe.
But what you don't know is if they checked you out, the call could have been just the start of their investigation of you.

JWF III
October 27, 2009, 04:38 PM
The trail stopped at the last recorded legal owner as it almost always does.

No. It stopped at the last person that bought it from a FFL. Actually that's not completely true. If the person you sold it to, traded/sold it to an FFL, but couldn't remember the FFL name, it's still the end of the paper trail. Many legal owners could have owned that gun after you.

Believe me, I am not a fan of the government at all, but I despise low life crooks even more.

I didn't know there was a difference.:neener:

Wyman

thorazine
October 27, 2009, 07:49 PM
Is there any benefit in doing this? It seems like the prices are not such a good deal compaired to just buying a brand new gun at a store.

My experience is just the opposite.

Gun store = high priced.

Private party = nicely priced.

jcwit
October 27, 2009, 08:06 PM
Why all the threads about buying guns with no paper work all of a sudden?

We getting set up for something?

DammitBoy
October 27, 2009, 08:09 PM
It works out perfect if you just stole a gun and want to convert it to cash or, if you are a convicted felon/illegal alien looking to get your shoot on.

I'd rather be sure that the gun I am buying is not stolen, or the gun I am selling is not going to someone that can't legally own one.

Every time I see a request for "FTF only" or "how much is this gun worth?" The first thing that goes through my mind is you are a convicted felon or you stole something and are trying to figure out how much your loot is worth.

I know hundreds of law abiding citizens who prefer FTF sales. You assume way too much.

If you enjoyed reading about "Private sale, or off paper gun sales?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!