.223 Timbs for the CZ-52, any other rounds like this one?


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machinecraig
September 18, 2009, 10:29 AM
Greetings! While reading up on Tokarevs and CZ-52s, I stumbled on the .223 Timbs cartridge. (http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html) :what: Are there any other handgun cartridge loadings that are similar (and hopefully commercially available) - where a smaller caliber bullet with sabot is moved at much higher velocity?

Also - it seems like every post I've raid on the .223 Timbs says it should only be used in a CZ-52. Is the CZ-52 really that much stronger than a Tokarev?

FYI - here's a picture of the round from the site linked above:
http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.jpg

And the text from the description:
SMOKEN!
The .223 Timbs was developed by Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millennium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25mm
round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. ONLY!
It consists of a sabot like the Remington Accelerator pushing a 50grain Soft Point projectile over 2000 F.P.S. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, usable for small game, varmints, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmint-type bullets.

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amd6547
September 18, 2009, 11:23 AM
The "CZ52 is stronger than a Tokarev" line has been proven to be a myth.

jerkface11
September 18, 2009, 11:26 AM
A CZ52 doesn't even fire from a locked breech. There is also less material around the chamber. A Tokarev should be a good deal stronger.

machinecraig
September 18, 2009, 11:34 AM
Thanks guys - I just found an older thread that goes into great detail on the CZ-52 vs Tokarev strength question. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22071&highlight=kb%21+9x23+Tokarev) I'm convinced that the Tok is as strong or stronger. Given that, wouldn't the .223 Timbs be safe to shoot from a Tokarev?

Col. Plink
September 18, 2009, 11:36 AM
Not sure what the above definition of 'locked breech', as the CZ52 is as locked as any semiauto can be and has roller locks. Some also claim it is 'cut' into the bore to achieve this design, which is inaccurate (the claim, not the design).

Wish I could answer your question; do you have something you can paste-in about the round you mentioned? It's a sabot Tokarev round? Sounds zippy!

GunTech
September 18, 2009, 11:48 AM
The CZ is a delayed blowback, not a locked breech.

As far as the 223 Timbs, we were putting sabotted 22 bullets in 30 carbine cases 20 years ago. Accuracy tends to suck.

eldiabloe1
September 18, 2009, 12:21 PM
Load that thing up with an SS109 bullet and it would be close to or better than the 5.7 if it could hold a descent group.

jdh
September 18, 2009, 11:49 PM
The CZ is a delayed blowback, not a locked breech.

Not according to Wikipedia
"The vz. 52 pistol is a roller-locked short recoil-operated, detachable box magazine-fed, single-action, semi-automatic pistol firing the 7.62x25mm cartridge."

RedAlert
September 19, 2009, 12:06 AM
How does the barrel rifling affect the SABOT? Sabots have been used for years in smooth bore shotguns and shotshells are not recommended in rifled barrels because the they end up like twisted knickers.

So, is there any special feature of the rifling in the CZ?

anewconvert
September 19, 2009, 12:30 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Wondering if a smooth bore would work better.


BC

Brian Williams
September 19, 2009, 10:35 AM
That Sabot was originally designed to be shot in the 308Win/30-06 cartridges, the sabot has enough twisting and shearing strength to handle the rifling

dogrunner
September 19, 2009, 11:42 AM
Really like to know what charge and powder is used to gain function with that sabot.

Tried multiple concoctions with my '52...........including various bullet weights. Most charge levels that would even BEGIN to function the gun were way out of the ballpark as far as I was concerned. NEVER could get a sabot'd loading to function reliably!

I'm aware that Reid (sp) was offering a .22 caliber bbl for a necked down 7.62X25 but not sabot'd rounds themselves.

Those attempts even included various powered recoil springs...........suggestions?

Incidentally, accuracy with my attempts wasn't at all bad.......at least equal to the surplus stuff I had on hand.....just sorta impractical to have an autoloader that isn't.

.45Guy
September 19, 2009, 12:22 PM
Perhaps the roller delayed blowback operation of the 52 is the reason for the sabo loads being expressly reccomended for it. Perhaps they don't have enough oomph for a locked breech recoil operated pistol such as the Tokarev?

jon_in_wv
September 19, 2009, 02:19 PM
You guys are making a mistake on this "locked breech" stuff. The Tokarev is no more locked than any other semi auto (short of a strictly blowback auto like most 380s) including the CZ 52. The tokarev functions like the 1911. The recoil lugs engage the slide and the slide and barrel travel back a short distance together until the barrel is tilted down and out of engagement with the slide by the barrel link. The CZ52 uses two rollers that perform the same purpose by mechanically engaging the slide to keep the barrel and slide moving together until the rollers enter a recess and allow the the barrel to move seperately from it. Its the same operation, just a different way of accomplishing it. At least thats my understanding.

Did that make any sense? I was trying to watch the end of a movie while I typed that.

jon_in_wv
September 19, 2009, 02:22 PM
The vz. 52 utilizes a fairly uncommon short recoil operating system in which a pair of vertical rollers are used to lock the barrel and slide together, via a cam block. This is similar to the system used in the MG 42 machine gun which itself hearkens back to a Polish patent of the 1930s. It results in an unusually strong lockup which allowed the Czechs to load ammunition for it to higher pressure levels (and therefore, higher velocity and energy) than compatible ammunition manufactured in other Warsaw Pact countries.

While in battery, the recoil spring, positioned coaxially around the barrel, provides the pressure necessary to lock the barrel and slide together via the rollers. When a shot is fired, the barrel and slide recoil together while the cam block is held stationary by a lug in the receiver. After traveling rearward a short distance (about 0.16" or 4 mm), the rollers are allowed to disengage from the slide via recesses in the cam block. At this point, the slide is free to continue rearward, cocking the hammer, extracting the spent case from the barrel's chamber and ejecting it clear of the pistol. After reaching the end of its stroke, the slide is returned to battery by the compressed recoil spring, again collecting a fresh cartridge from the magazine and inserting it into the chamber along the way.

From Wikipedia, they explained it a little better than I did.

capttom
September 22, 2009, 11:00 PM
I'd never heard about this cartridge before, but this is the second time today it came up. The Sept. 20 issue ofShotgun News has a David Fortier test of a 7.62x25/.30Tok/7.63 Mauser upper for the AR-15. Yowzer! It pumps out the 7.62 mil-surp rounds at 1800+ fps and Wolf commercial loads at almost 1700. This is with the more or less standard 86 gr bullets. The .223 Timbs didn't cycle the action of the converted AR, but 55 gr FMJs hit almost 2750 fps.
BTW, Fortier opines that the Tokarev, especially the M 57 iteration from Yugoslavia, is fair. He says the vz 52 is "a real homely dog." He's wrong, but I won't call him out. Gentlemen can disagree and he's no doubt a whole lot more combat and gun savvy than I am!
The Ronald Williams-RMW Xtreme upper lists for $699 and requires a $50 magazine adaptor. It feeds from PPSh -43 mags.

wheelgunslinger
September 23, 2009, 10:40 AM
The timbs is a neat concept. I have yet to even see any of them for sale in a pre-packaged box of ammo.

I've been looking for a while.

jerkface11
September 23, 2009, 01:11 PM
Why do people on this forum have so much trouble understanding the difference in delayed blowback and locked breech?

eatont9999
September 23, 2009, 01:23 PM
Not the Tokarev vs. CZ-52 fight again! I have difficulty seeing this sabot round being accurate. I don't think I would put that in my CZ-52 or Tokarev. Don't blow your face off, man. Not worth it.

capttom
September 23, 2009, 10:21 PM
From jerkface11: Why do people on this forum have so much trouble understanding the difference in delayed blowback and locked breech?

I can't swear to it, but I believe H & K described the original P9, which had the same lock-up as the vz 52 as delayed blowback. I don't see it, myself. Anyone who fieldstrips the CZ knows that those rollers really lock into the slide.

memyself
May 26, 2010, 04:50 AM
It is a wonderful firearm. It has a miniturized roller lock system, like HK rifles. It does have an extremely tight lock-up, between the slide, and the barrel.
I have had the honor of shooting the HK91 7.62 NATO rifle (2 different ones), and help clean them up. They have the same system, in the G-3 assault rifle, and the HK93, in 5.56 NATO. Very hearty, and FUN systems. Bought this pistol at a Gun show, about 15 years ago, for $100.00, brand new. The sear sheared apart, about 9 months later. Ordered 2 new ones from the Chech republic, and got them about 6 months later. No problem since!!!
My home protection!!! Corrosive ammo is cheap, but the short barrel is easy to clean up. I have since bought 2 new barrels, and firing pins, from The Sportsmans Guide for Cheap!!!. A while back, I bought a 9mm barrel from The Sportsmans Guide, but it needs long, heavy bullets, in the 9mm rounds, to function correctly. I have a 1911 in .45 and .380, and .38 special, various .22
pistols, and a Ruger Super Black Hawk, in .44 Mag with a 10.5 inch barrel. The Ruger is just too big for home protection. The CZ is cheap to shoot, and it can mess you up!!! But it is always bullet placement, that counts. Oh!!!, I also have a Mossin Nagant, and purchased a sleaved insert from, The Sportsmans Guide, that will insert into the 7.62 X 54 Russian barrel, but shoots the 7.62 X 25 Tokerev round. CHEAP and FUN!!!

max popenker
May 26, 2010, 10:00 AM
but I believe H & K described the original P9, which had the same lock-up as the vz 52 as delayed blowback.
Absolutely not the same
the P9 has stationary barrel and 2-part breechblock withing the slide assembly. The Vz.52 has recoiling barrel and single-piece breechblock/slide
the Vz.52 action is essentially the same as in MG-42 / MG-3 machine gun

speaking on the saboted .22/.30 concept, i would like to see same applied to .30 carbine ;)

MachIVshooter
May 26, 2010, 11:54 AM
Absolutely not the same
the P9 has stationary barrel and 2-part breechblock withing the slide assembly. The Vz.52 has recoiling barrel and single-piece breechblock/slide
the Vz.52 action is essentially the same as in MG-42 / MG-3 machine gun

Exactly. The Vz.52 is a locked breech short recoil gun.

Roller delayed either uses a 2-piece barrel and chamber assembly or a multi-piece bolt/breechblock that contains the rollers, in which the cartridge case begins backing out of the chamber and pushes the tapered inner piece of the bolt/brechblock back until the rollers on the outer section can fall inward and unlock from the receiver/barrel extension.

collector rob
May 26, 2010, 04:42 PM
There is also the .22 Reeds Express, but It looks like production is on hold.

http://shop.reedsammo.com/main.sc

Bohemus
May 27, 2010, 01:32 PM
From what Ive read vz.52 si actualy weaker because it was originaly 9mm pistol(ČZ 491) converted to 7,62 tokarev (ČZ 513). Thats the reason there are 9mm interchangeable barels.

Deaf Smith
May 27, 2010, 08:14 PM
speaking on the saboted .22/.30 concept, i would like to see same applied to .30 carbine

An interesting idea!

Deaf

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