[Joe Demko]

Here's a little incident that occured in August that involved several members of the Sheriff's Office where I part-time. Didn't hear about it until just recently, though.
One of the tiny (population of maybe 2000) communities in the county blocked off their main street and were holding their annual Old Home Week festival. As usual, the Sheriff's Office provided deputies as a courtesy for traffic direction, parking, crowd control, etc. On this particular night, the Sheriff Hisownself made a walk-through (election year).
A leather-clad, rather unkempt individual on a motorcycle parked on one of the sidestreets and started walking around the festival. Trick was, he was openly wearing a 9mm of some sort in a shoulder holster. Also leather vest, no shirt, large hairy gut hanging out, etc.
The local police (2-man dept. chief not there), got rather excited and agitated at the sight of this individual. They were planning on arresting him (though they weren't quite sure for what) when the Sheriff intervened.
Perhaps the best way to recount that part of the story is by the conversation which took place:
Sheriff: "Why are you wearing that pistol?'
Biker: "It's my right to carry openly."
Sheriff: "That's not what I asked you. Why are you wearing that pistol?"
Biker: "I have a permit from C_____ county."
Sheriff: "You aren't listening. That's not what I asked you and I know Sheriff ______ from C______ County and all I have to do is make one phone call to have your permit revoked. Now, why are you carrying that pistol?"
Biker: "Self-defense."
Sheriff: "This is a family event. Do any of these little kids or their mommies look like they might attack you?"
Biker: "I have a right to carry!"
Sheriff: "You aren't listening again...If you're that afraid, secure your pistol in your vehicle or at the local police station and I'll detail two deputies to be your bodyguards while you're here."
Biker:"MY rights...!"
Sheriff: "I haven't said or asked you one thing about your rights. Secure the weapon and then go have a good time at the carnival."
Biker: "I'm leaving."
Sheriff:"Your choice."

The biker type fellow then got back on his big, loud motorcycle and left.

My take on it: he brought it on himself. PA does provide for open carry. Coming to a small town carnival in biker-costume and wearing a pistola was just begging for LE attention, though. All he had to do was carry concealed and none of it would have happened. Were his rights stepped on? Yes, but I actually think that was what he wanted, too. He went out seeking attention and he got some.

[ysr_racer]

I'd have to disagree with you.

Q: Why are you wearing that pistol.

A: Because the law says I can.

Cops may not like ALL the laws, but they have to enforce them.

[Keith]

Coming to a small town carnival in biker-costume and wearing a pistola was just begging for LE attention

Yeah, it was foolish. You wouldn't expect LE to respect or obey the law when it comes to gun rights...

Keith

[P95Carry]

PA does provide for open carry Golgo ... I would be grateful if you could expand on that .... I have yet to feel I have the definitive information on this ... sometimes hearing ''can'', sometimes ''cannot''.

I see you are maybe not light years away from my area (Bedford County) .... and would like to try and get this clear .... main reason being that, whilst I carry concealed all the time ... there are occasions such as when hunting etc I would prefer not to have to worry about a bit of open carry - (in fact piece all but too big to hide!!) ..... when dropping into Mom & Pop store, gas station, that sorta thing.

Any written clause I can look up ... so far haven't found anything. Is it even worth a visit to Sherrif's office?

Your input would be much appreciated Sir.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, near forgot ... that biker!! I'd say in one sense he was excercising his rights but .... OTOH .. he was probably being excessively macho, indiscreet, tactless etc ..... considering the surroundings. Whether the cops acted right? ... it's a mixed bag. They were perhaps OK to question his manner and appearance with the gun - considering the circumstances ... but ........ difficult call to analyze with total impartiality!!

[Joe Demko]

Definitely worth a trip to the Sheriff's Office. Also, every time you buy a gun in PA you should be handed a little book that contans all of the PA firearms laws. It's in there too. Any gunstore can give you a new copy if you haven't bought a gun in a while.

Online you can check here for starters. (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=PA)

[DualBerettas]

that's a stupid answer, afraid the mommies and kiddies will hurt you??

want kind of crap is that...I bet the officer didn't take off HIS gun around them, why not?

no one thought violence would erupt in a day care, church, hospital, or numerous schools either but they did. You just never know...

hypocritical LE 'elite' attitude...

DB

[Balog]

P95Carry wrote he was probably being excessively macho, indiscreet, tactless etc ..... considering the surroundings.

A lack of manners didn't equal a criminal offense last I checked. And if he's not doing something wrong, why are the cops hassling him?

Sheriff: "You aren't listening. That's not what I asked you and I know Sheriff ______ from C______ County and all I have to do is make one phone call to have your permit revoked. Now, why are you carrying that pistol?"


Wow. "Justify your legal actions to my satisfaction, or I'll use my influence to hurt you."

Biker: "Self-defense."
Sheriff: "This is a family event. Do any of these little kids or their mommies look like they might attack you?"


Yeah, nobody would ever commit a crime at a family event. We should make it a gun free zone, just like schools!

Biker: "I have a right to carry!"
Sheriff: "You aren't listening again...If you're that afraid, secure your pistol in your vehicle or at the local police station and I'll detail two deputies to be your bodyguards while you're here."

Interesting. Guy says he has a right to carry, cop insults him by saying he must be unreasonably terrified to want to exercise a right. But it's ok, Big Brother will protect you.
Biker:"MY rights...!"
Sheriff: "I haven't said or asked you one thing about your rights. Secure the weapon and then go have a good time at the carnival."


"I haven't said anything about your rights. I've just trampled on them because of the way you look."


So let's recap. If you carry at a "family event" you are paranoid. You have to answer the way he wants, or he'll use his influence to hurt you. He can violate your rights if he wants, and he decides who has rights based solely on appearance.
Being a jerk does not give the cops license to destroy your rights.
Sweet Jebus, at least the Gestapo had a more objective criteria of who's human rights they defiled. Any wannabe JBT ever tried this "Do as I say or else" crap with me he'd A) have to arrest me for not obeying his unlawful orders & B) be in for one major lawsuit.

[TheeBadOne]

Did you witness this or are you just passing it on? :confused:

[Joe Demko]

So, gun crimes do happen at family events. No kidding. The cops were wrong, therefore, to want to know what the guy with a gun, dressed like a "bad guy" was up to. This stuff is doubly funny on a board where members regularly boast about their "situational awareness" and how they spot "gang-bangers" by their clothes, jewelry, etc.
"Why are you carrying that gun?' strikes me as a perfectly reasonable question that also had all sorts of perfectly reasonable answers to include "None of your business", "Self-defense", "Because I want to" and so on. Lecturing police about your rights is very seldom going to be a productive activity when one of them has asked you a question.

[Cosmoline]

Biker: "Self-defense."
Sheriff: "This is a family event. Do any of these little kids or their mommies look like they might attack you?"
---

Actually, I'd be afraid this small-town sheriff, like tens of thousands before him, believes he is the Law and feels free to run out or beat down anyone he thinks doesn't fit in.

It kinda reminds me of the beginning of "Rambo," actually :D

[Joe Demko]

I'm just passing it on. I heard about it from the Sheriff and several deputies at qualification last week.

[Cosmoline]

I guess I have sympathy with the biker guy because I often go around wearing unusual outfits. Typically, even during cold months, I will be wearing shorts, boots, and a big wool overcoat along with an "Elmer Fudd" hat. My fashion sense is deeply upsetting to some folks, but I'd be pretty pissed if some LEO decided it was actually criminal!

Thankfully, this is Alaska and however strange I appear, there are others nearby who are a whole lot stranger.

[El Tejon]

Hmmmm, someone has a §1983 lawsuit!!!:eek:

If that happened to me, I'd be at the Prosecuting Attorney's office first thing in the morning, federal court around 10, and then swing by the media offices in the afternoon. No reason to tolerate that kind of behavior amongst wannabe brownshirts.

[Keith]

Typically, even during cold months, I will be wearing shorts, boots, and a big wool overcoat along with an "Elmer Fudd" hat.

Are you running for borough mayor or something?

Keith

[Joe Demko]

I see you are maybe not light years away from my area (Bedford County)

No, I'm not and I met your Sheriff at the National Convention in Nashville and then again at the State Convention in Erie. Don't know if you know him or have had any dealings with him, but he is a heck of a friendly, nice guy.

[Joe Demko]

media offices in the afternoon

You'd probably want to do that first thing in the morning. The "media" in that county consists of an AM radio station that signs off at sunset.

[George Hill]

So because he dresses differently than the norm - he voids his right to carry?
:scrutiny:
Or is it his car only has 2 wheels instead of four?
:scrutiny:

Those Cops were totally wrong, and totally retarded.
Had this biker made any threats? Has this biker done anything overt - OTHER THAN - excercising his own personal Liberty - Something that members of this forum proclaim to espouse?

Those Cops should have DEFENDED his right and if anyone compained they should have told the complaintant to shove off or ask "Did he threaten you PERSONALLY?"

My God, Man!
:cuss:

[Balog]

"Why are you carrying that gun?' strikes me as a perfectly reasonable question that also had all sorts of perfectly reasonable answers to include "None of your business", "Self-defense", "Because I want to" and so on. Lecturing police about your rights is very seldom going to be a productive activity when one of them has asked you a question.


He gave those answers and the blasted pig wouldn't accept any of them. Lecturing brownshirts on my rights is a perfectly valid response when the aforementioned brownshirt is trampling on them.

[Cosmoline]

"Are you running for borough mayor or something?"
--

Not yet. If I were running for mayor I'd be dressed with an even larger fur hat, standing by the side of the southbound lane of the Glenn Highway at five AM, waving wildly at commuters while standing in front of a searchlight.

[HogRider]

Sheriff: "You aren't listening. That's not what I asked you and I know Sheriff ______ from C______ County and all I have to do is make one phone call to have your permit revoked. Now, why are you carrying that pistol

You gotta be kidding? A threat? If that would happen to me I be on the phone with the NRA, a Lawyer and several local news media.

The guy had no right to even ask the biker in the first place, unless it was clearly posted that there are no weapons allowed.

He was carrying because he was exercising his rights not a privilege that can be revoked with a phone call.

:cuss:

[Joe Demko]

Did he void his right to carry? No. however, if I had been there, I believe I might have been a bit curious whether he needed the 9 to defend himself from a 3-year old who wanted his place in the "pick a duck" line, too. I've taken my own daughter to that carnival. It is all LITTLE kiddie rides and games. This fellow did the equivalent of dressing up in his "Lone Biker of the Apocalypse" drag and carrying a gun into Chuck E. Cheese. If you excercise your rights by acting provocatively, why would not expect a reaction?
Also, I should explain that the Sheriff was, in his way, trying to do this guy a favor. If you read closely, the local PD was planning on arresting him. The Sheriff was there politicing. The Sheriff was trying to keep the guy out of a cell where he didn't belong and the local PD out of court. Now, he could have simply rolled up and told the two local cops (in their own jurisdiction) to bugger off. He does however, have to work with that PD on an ongoing basis. His handling of the situation was, no doubt, colored by saving their egos.

[Cosmoline]

I don't think this is so much a RKBA issue as a case of "get out of town or else." He was the wrong kind of person for small town PA. This is why I hate going back East. In the big cities all you have are leftist antis. In the rural areas you can have a firearm, but only if you're good people and have a name people know, dress nicely, etc. Otherwise you hit the road, whether you're armed or not. Small towns, tiny minds.

[JimJD]

I feel the same way El Tejon...
That would have been my course of action too.

It's really nice to see most of the replies here agree with the bikers side.
This is yet another case of LE prejudical attitude towards certain individuals based on looks and choice of lifestyle.
I get this type of crap from LE's and the squares of society all the time.

BTW, The whole " if it looks like a duck...." arguement really does not hold any water. Instead, it just shows the great depth of that individuals ignorance.
This sherriff's small mindedness is just not contained to small towns either.
Big city, small city. Big town, small town. It's happening everywhere.

Last time I checked, this is America.
Choice is what were all about. When these types of incidents become the norm, we are ALL in some serious trouble.
Let your freak flag fly if you want to!

[Keith]

Ah, yes of course, but then I forgot you are a conservative!

I just associate shorts and combat boots with the better dressed democratic candidates. Around here, it's "Ketchikan Sneakers", the big rubber fishermans boots. And no candidate would appear without them at risk of not showing solidarity with the working man.

Keith

[P95Carry]

Definitely worth a trip to the Sheriff's Office. Also, every time you buy a gun in PA you should be handed a little book that contans all of the PA firearms laws. It's in there too. Any gunstore can give you a new copy if you haven't bought a gun in a while. Golgo -- thx . yeah will check in at Sheriff's office ......... the ''little book'' ...... hmmm .. more case of buying too often so that gets left out of the equation!! I will see if I can get a fresh copy ... good idea. Checked out the link thx .. but still can't really see a clause which ''allows'' per se .... unless it is implicit by no mention within other sections. I'll re -read that stuff again.

Don't know Diele personally but he seems well liked ... up for re-election right now. Only know Matt, Deputy Sheriff.A lack of manners didn't equal a criminal offense last I checked. And if he's not doing something wrong, why are the cops hassling him? Balog ... I do agree there ..... only reason I mentioned the ''tact/discretion'' deal was really just because these days there is so much paranoia when some sheeple see a gun ..... that it seems prudent in some circumstances to maybe make for good concealment ... that's all. Just an attempt to achieve a balance between assertion of the right (undisputed in itself) .... and avoiding any hysteria!

Wish it were otherwise as once was.

[Cosmoline]

Furs are the rage among politicos up here. I saw several along the highway in amazing amounts of fur this last election. I was wondering if there was an open season on them, actually. But then you can't shoot from the roadway
:(

[Daniel T]

If you bag a pol while they are politicing with the masses, is that "Hunting Over Bait"?

[TarpleyG]

Sheriff: "You aren't listening again...If you're that afraid, secure your pistol in your vehicle or at the local police station and I'll detail two deputies to be your bodyguards while you're here."
I would've taken him up on his offer just for spite...AND stayed until they closed the place down.

GT

[Keith]

That would be tempting! You could make them hold big gobs of cotton candy and stuffed animals while you had fun.

Keith

[Bill Hook]

The best answer is that since he was on a bike, he didn't want to leave the gun to get stolen. Most Hogs only have saddle bags for storage, if any.

[geekWithA.45]

Ya'll missed it:

The Sherrif was up for re-election.

He was grandstanding for the crowd.

I wouldn't be surprised if the biker was an accomplice, and they met for beers afterwards.

But that's just me.

I'm cynical.

[Steve in PA]

PA does allow open carry......well, actually open carry is never mentioned in the laws.......so, you can legally open carry in PA. Expect to have someone more than likely call the police......and you'll be checked out thoroughly.

[cordex]

Sheriff: "You aren't listening again...If you're that afraid, secure your pistol in your vehicle or at the local police station and I'll detail two deputies to be your bodyguards while you're here."
Ho boy ... I would have fun with that.

[mattd]

This reminds of that Easy Rider movie, They are afraid of freedom.

[Joe Demko]

He was grandstanding for the crowd.
Actually, the exchange took place on the same side street where the biker's ride was parked. No crowd.

[71Commander]

You fellows make me proud. I have 2 harley's and long hair and a full beard.

Have never been charged with a felony, much less convicted. AND have a CCW that in order to possess, had every little detail of my life checked by the governing authorties. They found that I was an up-standing, law abiding person regardless of appearances.

Thanks for remembering that the rules apply to every one or none at all.

[Joe Demko]

Ho boy ... I would have fun with that.

How exactly? Given that the deputies who are called out for this kind of thing are almost entirely part-timers, it would be interesting. I am one of the very, very few part-timers who isn't a 50-something retired state cop or retired military. Yeah, there would be fun all right...

[BluesBear]

When I wore a badge in KY there was no such thing as a permit to carry concealed. Unless you were a "Peace Officer" or a "Mail Carrier while in the process of delivering mail" you couldn't do it. Period, no way, no how.

BUT... open carry had been a legal option for a gazillion years.

So in a case like this open carry would have been, technically, a lawful act.

However, just about anyone who knew anything about guns and the laws, also knew what you could and could not get away with.

If you were to carry openely to your local hardware store chances are nothing would ever be said.
If you were to carry openly at the local county fair or in the local Wal-Mart you COULD be cited or arrested for "disorderly conduct".
Disorderly Conduct was defined by the Kentucky Revised Statues, as public actions that could be a cause of "affront or alarm".

So in this case, the gentleman in question, by his looks and demeanour, could be reasonably expected, to cause "affront or alarm" of the people attending.

A uniformed officer should cause any concern. You expect to see that.

A prudent person would have known this. I know a lot of bikers and biker types. (Hells Bells, I even rode a little before I broke my back and I still look the part.) Most of them are intelligent. Well at least the real ones are. Anyway, a prudent person, knowing what might happen, would have chosen to carry concealed as was/is his right.


What we all need to remember is that our individual rights should not interfere with the individual rights of others. His individual right to carry should not interfere with individual rights of the other people attanding to feel safe and secure.

Just as you have the right to assemble peacefully and sing protest songs and make loud speechs protesting the movie Barfing Over Columbine,
you DON'T have the right to do it in my back yard at 5:30am while I am trying to sleep.

What it boils down to is that this entire incident has very little to do with rights and more to do with manners and good ol' common courtesy.

Would as big of a deal have been made over a 9to5 looking, soccer dad, wearing Dockers and a Polo shirt, carrying a j-frame in a thumbreak paddle holster? Probably not. Is that fair? Pssst LIFE ain't fair Sparkey, it never has been and never will be.

If you wanna carry openly where it's lawful, fine, but do it politely.


Besides the gun bit, he shoulda, PUT ON A SHIRT!
Cover your gut, nobody want's to see it. :barf:
This is the real world, manners DO count.

Re-election or not, the Sheriff did him a FAVOUR!

[zahc]

I am willing to bet that the cops were wearing guns at this family event. Why would they need to carry at a family event? What are they afraid of?

[Standing Wolf]

Coming to a small town carnival in biker-costume and wearing a pistola was just begging for LE attention...

Baloney. Wearing a motorcycle costume isn't now, never has been, nor ever will be a crime.

[El Tejon]

Blues, enormous distinction between illegality and civility. I care nothing for facial hair (especially the monkey butt [and BTW what's up with the monkey butt and the backwards hat? The monkey's butt sez "look at me, I'm dangerous" while the backwards hat sez "I'm just a little boy, don't expect much from me". You kids today!]), men with Hayzeusesque long hair, and am a strong proponent of bathing and shaving, and wearing a shirt, usually of the yuppie scum variety.

However, I do not set my dress code as the law (goodness knows we would all look better, smell better and behave better). If the biker did nothing illegal, then the police did a lot of things illegally. Just because I do not like the "looks" of an individual does not mean I get to violate their civil rights.

If the biker was not violating the "disorderly conduct" statute or like in Penn's woods, then he should fight back. Sue Barney and Andy into receivership and yell loud and hard to the media and the Prosecuting Attorney (or whatever they call prosecutors out there).

[cordex]

How exactly? Given that the deputies who are called out for this kind of thing are almost entirely part-timers, it would be interesting. I am one of the very, very few part-timers who isn't a 50-something retired state cop or retired military. Yeah, there would be fun all right...
Golgo,
Heh ... how? I'd take it as my due. I don't mind a few cops hanging out with me at a carnival. They'd be bored out of their minds, but that's not my fault.

[rock jock]

I understand the sentiment of the sheriff. Many folks find the sight of a gun carried by a non-LEO disturbing. He is trying to accomodate them as well as the biker since he is sheriff to everyone. However, the appropriate answer from the sheriff would be "listen, I know its your right, but would you do us a favor and carry that in a concealed manner? It would cause far less stress for everyone. You don't have to do it, but we would consider it a favor." If he doesn't, then the sheriff has a right to tail the guy with two deputies and look for any possible violation he can to cart the guy off with.

[jimpeel]

If you were to carry openely to your local hardware store chances are nothing would ever be said.
If you were to carry openly at the local county fair or in the local Wal-Mart you COULD be cited or arrested for "disorderly conduct".
Disorderly Conduct was defined by the Kentucky Revised Statues, as public actions that could be a cause of "affront or alarm".

So in this case, the gentleman in question, by his looks and demeanour, could be reasonably expected, to cause "affront or alarm" of the people attending.I find it interesting that they can drag you into court based on charges that the basis of which would not hold up in testimony in that same court. Testimony that calls for a conclusion, or is based on an opinion, supposition, speculation, or has no basis in fact -- fact being an overt act which can be testified to the veracity of that act -- and the defense/prosecution would be on their feet screaming "OBJECTION" to which the judge would say "Sustained". This law calls for the conclusion that someone has been in some way offended to the point of abject fear. If the officer is that person, to what use is the firearm he carries?

[Ryder]

Sounds kinda staged. The biker might have been the sheriff's nephew or blackmailed into doing this in exchange for a 30 day stay in the iron bar motel. Job security worries us all, eh? Looks like the shepherd.. Errrrr sheriff will win the next election by a landslide.

I ride a bike. I wear leather. I have a beard and long hair (sometimes). I carry (all the time). I have not experienced any unwelcoming prejudice in my travels (and I do get around). I was trailed halfway through the state of Kansas once, but they didn't order me around like I had no rights.

What self respecting anti-social biker type would be caught dead mingling with all those sheeps? Wild horses couldn't drag me into a situation like that. For what reason? Fun? Hahhaha.

[King]

If it's an open carry state, citizens should be used to seeing firearms out in public places without being alarmed about it.

Even though he (the biker) doesn't seem to be in a very dangerous environment while at a carnival, he probably packs all the time (just like a lot of folks who hang out here on THR).

The Sheriff was out of line with his handling of the biker. That's probably because he doesn't like bikers and this was a convenient reason.

Sign me "King" aka a biker with two Harley Davidson's and I'm packing concealed whereever I go in Texas. No open carry here handguns here.

[cracked butt]

I guess if you want to have rights in this country, you have to look like everyone else, have the same skin tone as everyone else, and use some sort of socially responsible vehicle to get from point A to point B. .:rolleyes:

He should have asked the police why they need to carry guns in an event that is full of women and children.

Just because someone is wearing leather (which is for personal protection also) doesn't make them a criminal. I attended an event put on by Harley davidson this summer that drew about 200,000 bikers, and yes even women and children, there were a total of 7 arrests at the event, most for public intoxication.

[BluesBear]

If one more person asks [whining satirical voice] somebody ask the cops why theeey need to carry guuuuns at a widdle carny-val full of wimmin and kiddies [/whining satirical voice] I'm gonna BARF :barf: :barf:

It's their JOB for Pete's sake! Geeesh what do you expect? British Bobbys? :what:
Is anyone actually insinuating that police ought to work unarmed? :rolleyes:
You know what you call a cop without a gun? Yeah that's right, a Security Guard.
Admit it, even Andy Griffith looked kinda silly without a Sam Brown belt. He looked more like a Good Humor Ice Cream Man than a sheriff.


If it had been just another "good ol' boy" wearing a Cat hat, flannel shirt with no buttons just flopping in the breeze, worn out work boots, oil stained jeans and a 9mm in a shoulder holster on the outside of his shirt it would still have been the same.

The fact that he was a biker is incidental. It's his actions and demeanor that were in question. Could it have been handled differently? Of course it could have. Could it have been handled better? Quite probably.

Remember all of this happened on a side street. Not in plain sight by the main flock of sheeple and it was all defused before it got out of hand.

In my not so humble opinion the guy was there to get a reaction.
He bloody well KNEW that somebody would say something about it.

Maybe he was looking for a lawsuit?
Maybe he was thinking of death by cop?
Maybe he was looking to start a fight?
Maybe he was just has a craving for stale cotton candy?
Maybe he was just standing up for his RKBA?
Maybe he just wanted his 15 minutes of fame?
Maybe YOU want to represented on TV and in the media by a guy dressed like him but I don't.

Who knows what was in his mind. Maybe it was something, maybe it was nothing. The bottom line is that it all worked out. Nobody was hurt. Nobody paniced. Nobody went to jail. EVERYBODY went home safely that night.

I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the guy isn't a menber of THR.
In fact why is it that you don't hear of a THRer pulling a lame stunt like this?
I'll tell you why. Because no matter how we look, we don't act this way.

If you saw the exact same guy on a sitcom or an eposode of Cops you bust a gut laughing at him.

To all of you who say you ride and wear leather and look the type, maybe you do, but you don't act this stupid.
He was NOT acting like a biker, cause bikers ain't stoopid.

This guy was just a MORON who happened to own a motorcycle. :scrutiny:

[Gillster]

I kind of look at this as there are three types of opinions for every issues. For, against and don't cares. When somebody does something like this it runs the risk of causing some of the don't cares to start caring. An example, I hunt deer. Every year I shoot a few, put 'em in the truck and drop 'em off at the processer to nicely package for me. My wife comes from a non-hunting family and just didn't care if I went or not. One day we're driving home from Houston and a suburban pulls in front of us with a dead deer strapped onto the luggage rack and dripping blood down the back window and spraying drops onto the windshields of other cars. Wonder how many other don't cares, like my wife, developed an opinion based on the 'burb. Was he legal? Yes, does that mean he couldn't have wrapped the deer in a tarp or something? When you get in peoples faces you tend to force them to take sides. I know this guy was exercising his legal rights but he was doing nothing to further the cause and possibly costing it some supporters or changing a few don't cares minds. Just my take.

Chris

[Geech]

This guy was just a MORON who happened to own a motorcycle.

Thankfully, civil liberties do not require an IQ test. :barf:

[BluesBear]

Thankfully, civil liberties do not require an IQ test.

As evidenced by the ACLU. :rolleyes:

[cracked butt]

What is the cop's job? To carry a gun or to uphold the law?
Sounds like he was doing one, but not the other.

I'll concede that the biker may have been looking for attention, ,but what is the point of a law allowing open carry if law enforcement is going to harass citizens lawfully carrying at every corner?

[Don Gwinn]

Bluesbear, sir, you're going to want to calm down.

And just so we're clear, nobody, anywhere, ever, has a "right to feel" any God-blessed thing at all! Ever. None. A right to a feeling could never be enforced. People, even people at a carnival, do not have a right not to be afraid. They have an obligation to themselves to understand what is and is not a valid reason for fear. A peaceful person who doesn't look like them and goes armed is not a valid reason to be afraid.
Does an agoraphobic person have a right not to be afraid, too.

Next, it may irritate you, but the question of why a policeman with a gun on his hip feels justified in telling a citizen (Even a citizen with a valid permit!) not to wear a gun on his hip should be allowed to carry his gun is a valid one. A policeman is not an Optiman. Yes, carrying gun is part of his job. So, often, is driving an interceptor with "cop brakes, cop suspension, and a cop engine." Does that mean the local sherriff has the right to forbid me to put a warmed-over 383 in my wife's Camaro? After all, I probably don't need the power, and if I think I do need it, he can always detail a deputy to drive me somewhere.

Finally, all the arguments about "situational awareness" and "identifiying bad guys" went out the window when the guy told the sherriff about his permit. A person with a concealed carry permit is literally a card-carrying member of a select group of law-abiding citizens. If the sherriff had really thought the guy was a threat, he'd have checked the permit. He didn't care.

Y'know, my son picked on a younger boy today. Before the end of the day, the victim screwed up his courage, walked up to my son, and popped him in the nose. I hope my son learned the lesson in that.
Bullies get hurt. Sometimes they even lose elections.

[BluesBear]

Does an agoraphobic person have a right not to be afraid, too.
An abnormal fear of public places is caused by internal stimuli not external, such as in this case. In fact it could be argued that agoraphobia, as with most phobias, is an unreasonable reaction to normal everyday occurances. The mere fact that it doesn't happen to "normal, everyday" people is what makes it an anomaly. I think any fear in this instance could be considered "normal" due to it's propensity to affect so many people.
Does that mean the local sherriff has the right to forbid me to put a warmed-over 383 in my wife's Camaro?
No but there might be an ordinance requiring you to swap the Chevy tranny for a Mopar.
A person with a concealed carry permit is literally a card-carrying member of a select group of law-abiding citizens.
Yep, Sean Penn and Diane Feinstein are members of a select group all right.





Don't forget that inalienable rights are accompanied by inescapable responsibilities.

[12-34hom]

Rock Jocks solution to this incident, looks to be a solution that all could have lived with... maybe??

12-34hom.

[BluesBear]

12-34hom,
I whole-heartedly agree that rock jock had a good handle on it. That would have been a great way to handle it, IF the fellow had been amicable.

Unfortunately, even though we know the words used in the exchange, we don't know the tone of voice used.

[Keith]

Let's change the parameters.

It's 1955 in a small town in Mississippi and a black man (unarmed) walks into a traditionally white town fair.
The cop stops him and the same conversation ensues, ie: He doesn't care if the black man has the "right" to walk down the street because exercising his rights will make the other people "uncomfortable" or even "frightened".

Anybody want to defend that cops position?

Keith

[71Commander]

Keith

IMHO I don't think your comparison is going to work out here.

In the 1955 scenario, the lone (black) man would be fearful for his life from the masses. In the real life scenario the masses, being from a small town, would be fearful of their lives from the mean ole' biker, thug, drug addict, hoodlum type person.

[Keith]

It doesn't matter. For our purposes we'll just assume the man is particularly brave or foolhardy.
The important thing is whether the cop is right for putting the "feelings" of others over the civil rights of the man in question.

Keith

[71Commander]

It's a tough one. I don't know.


For the greated good just doesn't cut it. So I would say that the man's civil rights should be upheld, and any disturbances resulting from his presence should be dealt with as they arrise.

[hd1.]

The important thing is whether the cop is right for putting the "feelings" of others over the civil rights of the man in question.


On the street, the cop is always "right". If the incident winds up in front of a judge, the cop may be found to be "not right". You have to decide if its worth your time and effort to fight. There are times to walk away, and times to "draw the line". You sometimes get to choose.

[Litlman]

How manny of you would / do carry without a shirt and with a vest and a shoulder holster? COME ON!!! I wouldn't do it even if I wasn't as "chubby" as I am now. And I am pretty clean cut. I live in Pa. and have never heard of "open" carry unless hunting. I am sure that if I had the same clothing and weapon set up that I would be questioned by some authority. His form of carry seems inappropriate to me. I have a ccw and carry dicreetly. I am not an attention seeker or a sudo-intimidater. This guy was wrong. If he had a ccw the weapon should have been conceiled and the sherif should have checked it and avoided the rest of the bullcrap. It is not about the way that the guy was dressed. And another thing what is with the Anti- cop crap here???? I don't like the way that the sherif handled the whole deal but ifeel a sense of anti-LEO's here am I right?

[grampster]

Boy it's fun coming in on the tail end of a good discussion. You get a chance to see the problem bit off, roiled up, chawed on, and spat out. After reading everything as a firm believer in the BOR, a firearm enthusiast, duly licensed to CCW, former LEO, lover of carnivals and Harley Davidsons (I had one years ago, mention getting one again, get "that look" from wife, go back to doing what I was before inviting "that look") and being old enough to know that clothes do not make the man, here's my .02 cents.

Blues Bear pretty much hit the nail on the head despite all the variations on just about every theme. The whole episode is about common sense, period. At the end of the day, the sheriff was exercising the bluff bravado that the badge gives one, from time to time. Probably for the benefit of the two small time leo's. Don't make him a threat to the constitution, just a dumb, self serving move on his part. Have seen it happen in the job mor than once. He might have even regreted it later, who knows. No common sense. The biker was pushing the envelope by flaunting his "colors" and his right to carry openly at a carnival. Probably hoping to attract a "carny chick" with his macho. No common sense. The two small town officers were flustered with a situation that was strange and unusual for them, so they do what leo's do, sometimes, start to get pro active. Common sense again.

If there was one redeeming feature, it was the biker. He chose to not accelerate a dopey confrontation. Actually sounded, if the story was being related properly, that he was a little embarrassed at being confronted as he, after rather weakly expressed his "right to carry" and that he had CCW, he got on his hawg and left Dodge peacefully. He was probably an insurance guy with a phony beard and was afraid he'd get locked up and his wife would kick his butt because she would know he was at the carnival to pick up the "carny chick" at the cigarette toss stand.

:D grampster:D

[hd1.]

And another thing what is with the Anti- cop crap here???? I don't like the way that the sherif handled the whole deal but ifeel a sense of anti-LEO's here am I right?


I believe that the majority of posters here have nothing but respect and admiration for the LEOs who up-hold the law.

However, there is a climate of "anti- infringement" here. In this particular case, the perceived "infringer" happens to be an Officer of the Law. In some respects, that make the "infringement" all the worse. The term "abuse of power" comes to mind.

[MeekandMild]

I really can't believe so many folks have missed such a major point. The sheriff did this guy a real favor. My bet is there were probably a half dozen good citizens ready to kill him on the spot if that LEO hadn't intervened. Forget infringement and forget abuse of power, that is for armchair lawyers, we're talking about a guy who comes to town with "shoot me" tattooed on his forehead.

If this little town was anything remotely like the small towns I've been in all throughout the South, impolite+open carry+stranger=dead. (Or substitute weird for impolite and the equation adds up the same.) Penalty for some touchy citizen who happens to be at the carnival with their kid and "afraid for my life"=not even a slap on the wrist.

[Sergeant Bob]

It's kind of humerous, really. So many people always talk about Constitutional rights, RKBA, slam the NRA for compromising, talk about taking a few with them if they come for their guns, say Molon Labe! Molon Labe!, got the T-shirts and hats. Yet, when someone else chooses to exercise those same Constitutional and legal rights (when it might frighten a few blissninnies), then he's a kook or a nutjob, just trying to stir up trouble, and cheer for the ones violating his rights. Then they vote for Arnold Schwarzzenwhatever. (figure of speech)

[jimpeel]

My bet is there were probably a half dozen good citizens ready to kill him on the spot if that LEO hadn't intervened. Forget infringement and forget abuse of power, that is for armchair lawyers, we're talking about a guy who comes to town with "shoot me" tattooed on his forehead.

If this little town was anything remotely like the small towns I've been in all throughout the South, impolite+open carry+stranger=dead. (Or substitute weird for impolite and the equation adds up the same.) Penalty for some touchy citizen who happens to be at the carnival with their kid and "afraid for my life"=not even a slap on the wrist.So you are saying that this man actually did have to be armed to protect himself from those in the crowd who were also armed and itching to shoot the first guy who showed up with "shoot me" tattooed on his forehead.

Seems the sheriff was wrong about those "little kids or their mommies" being what he should be fearful of. By your account, an actual, imminent, and immediate threat existed at that event.

That fear is exacerbated by your apparent eye-witness accounts of the perpetrators of any violence against this man fearing no punishment for their actions; because none would be meted out under the "good-ol'-boy" code of conduct.

Maybe you should go bandage that foot you just shot.

[Intune]

Hahaha, so it has come down to weight, hair length, tats, mode of transportation & town of origin as to whether or not one can follow the law. Or was that law written for slim, short-haired people who are homy's? Inch by inch, sheep.:barf: So there was no "reason" for him to open carry but if he was carrying concealed and a "madman" took out the popo's & the "biker" saved the day amongst those women & children, all would be copasetic? What if one of the local policemen went off on his lover, the bearded lady, shot her and began mowing down all in the vicinity? Would it be ok for Mr. open carry biker to put a bullet in his head or should he become a victim? Do YOU know when or where the next murder will take place? I don’t care if he was a 450lb tat covered, long haired sumo wrestler, a “furiner.” “Carry on Mr. law-abiding citizen." Any of you that have a problem with the man carrying out his right, we may just be on different sides one day. Best of luck to ya. WAS HE BREAKING THE LAW? :confused: Bah!

[Publicola]

This is interesting.

First of all the sheriff should spend a little time on the other side of the bars. He used his badge to intimidate someone from exercising a Right, or in this case a quasi-Right or privilege.

Pa. requires a permit to carry, openly or concealed. That's an infringement of a Right in & of itself. It's submitting to conditions, paying a fee & waiting for approval to exercise a Right. I see no difference between applying for a permit to carry, concealed or openly & applying for a permit to join a religious group, or speak freely in a public place.

It is disturbing that some people, some gun owners rather, seem to have no qualms about trading in their Rights for a privilege license. Hell, some even look at it with pride, like they're members of some elite club. I'd think it was pretty shameful myself if I had to pay for someone's permission to exercise a Right.

Anyway, another thing I find disturbing is the attempts to justify or even commend the sheriff in this situation. Granted I was not there, as most of us weren't, but judging strictly from the transcript I gotta say the sheriff really needs to find a new line of work.

& the guy's appearance or motives? Irrelevant. doesn't matter what he was trying to accomplish. All that matters is he was not committing any crime. All the discussion revolving around this being an attempt to get attention or some other ulterior motive is simply none of our business. The guy could have been on a dare or he could have wanted to revisit some long lost childhood memory by watching other kids & their parents at the carnival. It simply does not matter.

Was what he did tactful, or polite? Again, none of our friggin' business. What he was doing was legal. Further it was (aside from that whole nonsense about the permit) an exercise of a Right.

Did the biker give gun owners a bad rap by doing that? Nope. Not one bit. What does give gun owners a bad rap is the way we turn on each other over peripheral issues such as the possibility that public opinion was swayed. It's cowardice to do that. Cowardly to condemn a man for simply carrying a firearm with peaceful intent. It is the same logic that says if a person exercises their Rights openly it will cause those Rights to be restricted as it is when a person claims that the women was looking to get raped because her skirt was too short. You simply cannot justify the bad actions of one person or group on the nuetral or good actions of another person or group.

& the sheriff was doing him a favor? How? by drilling in the fact that permits & even Rights are subject to the whim of the head thug in charge?

As to the person who alledged a Right to be free from fear, you sir have a serious misunderstanding of what constitutes a Right. Walk with me for a moment...

A Right is something that is necessary & practicable, among other things. There are many types of Rights; collective, individual, natural or God-given, political, etc... Now we have 3 real big ones: Life, Liberty & Property. From these 3 derive all the rest. Now from Life, Liberty & Property we have the Right of Self Defense. See sometimes in order to keep Life, Liberty & Property ya have to defend them. A natural derivitive of Self Defense is the Right to Arms. See, in order to effectively defend ones' self it helps to have weapons of the same type as those who you're trying to defend yourself from, or at least ones that are efective as you can manage.

Now let us look at fear. It's an emotional state that's object is to warn us of danger. If a Right to be free from fear did exist, wouldn't that be contradictary? Since fear is a natural defense mechanism that all creatures have, wouldn't an attempt to remove that mechanism be unnatural?

& the idea that fear is a Right is further complicated by any attempts I have made to trace this alledged Right back to a source. It doesn't evolve from Life, since fear can help you keep Life. It doesn't evolve from Liberty, since knowing when to run can keep you free, nor does it evolve from Property, since fear can alert you to any attempts at theft.

It would be just as ludicrous to propose that we have a Right to be free from contentment. Or happiness. Or safety. Or love. Or hate. Or anger. Or compassion. Or pity. Or pride.

So I would propose that this so called Right to be free from fear is nothing more than a misunderstanding that comes from either ignorance of the definition of a Right, or malice in that it's deliberately used to justify taking away the Rights of others.

What this biker did was proper, at least until the sheriff attempted to put his boot across his throat, so to speak. Whether we like it or not, no one here or anyplace else in this world has any authority to force a person to behave in a certain manner when that behavior involves the exercise of a Right & threatens no immediete, imminent harm.

Now as far as anti-leo sentiment goes - sure I have some. every gun owner should. This is not because all leo's are bad. In fact I figure the ratio of good to bad is just like the general population, some are really good, some are really bad, with the rest falling somewhere in between.

What we should be upset about is not so much the leo's themselves, but the departments & system that they operate within. The system that lets this sheriff in question do what he did w/o any fear of repercussion.
& personally I'm ticked every time I think of an leo with a 15 or even 11 round mag that just came from the factory while us mere peasants are stuck with ten rounders if we want new.

& cops being disarmed? Definitely. Any leo who is in a place where non-leo's cannot carry should not carry themselves. & in places where non-leo's are restricted as to what they can carry or purchase then the leo's should be restricted to that as well.

The leo's are not a priviliged class & should not be treated as such. they should abide by the same laws us serfs have to abide by.

One last thing: I have noticed CCW permit holders look down their noses at those who carry openly. This is shameful as the pretext for dissapproval is usually that it scares the public & turns some against gun ownership. In actuality what it is appears to be jealousy. Those who carry openly (with some exceptions) usually do so in states where open carry is treated as a Right, not a privilige. No permit, no fees, in short you don't have to pay your dues to get into an elite club. This kind of jealousy (I had too, so why didn't he???) is particularly dangerous, as it clothes itself in righteous indignation & it's nakedness is difficult to see. So I'd ask y'all to reconsier. I know most won't & will get ticked at my saying this, but perhaps someone is intellectually honest enough to see that there's no good reason for looking down on someone who does something you can't or won't, especially when it's a Right we're talking about.

Oh, perhaps one more thing: y'all are in good company. In Colorado Springs, Co. a few months back, the NRA turned its back on a member who peaceably carried his shotgun to a city council meeting. They disavowed him, although not to the extent that some of y'all have this biker, as an irresponsible gun owner for daring to exercise the Right to carry openly that the NRA claims credit for getting in Co. (A pre-emption law recently passed that prohibited city's from banning guns & carry).

That should have made me enough friends to last a while. :cool:

[Byron Quick]

OK, impolite+stranger+open carry= shoot on sight throughout the South, huh?

Reckon I must have been polite as I travelled all over Georgia with my hippy appearing butt (then) back in the days before CCW...when open carry without permission was still legal here. Never had a problem with the police...was never even asked,"Why you got that gun on you, you long haired freak?" Imagine that. Did have a few folks ask me if I was a cop but none of them fainted when I told them no. None screamed. None called the cops to save them. None reached for the gun under the counter.

Seems as if no one was "alarmed or affronted."

Guess Georgians-both law enforcement and private citizen- don't get their underwear quite as roiled up as folks in Pennsylvania and Kentucky seem to.

Now I did have an officer stomp up to my vehicle at a roadblock once, commenting about hippy expletive this and long haired expletive that with every step. When he got to window and saw the 1911 .38 Super Auto lying on the seat in open view...he said,"May I see your license, sir?" I handed it to him. He handed it back. We headed out of each other's lives
BTW...in the days before CCW, open view on the seat was the only legal means to carry a handgun in a car in Georgia.

[71Commander]

Meekand Mild

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please define weird ?

[Molon Labe]

Golgo-13: No one in your department (including the sheriff) had a right to infringe upon this man’s right to keep and bear arms. Period. It was also wrong IMO to even question why he was wearing an gun.

Damn elitists. You should be ashamed of yourselves. :fire:

[Bill Hook]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16804&highlight=gang+AND+illegal



I'm sensing some hypocrisy here by a few posters, based on prior comments about profiling.

[feedthehogs]

The biker was pushing the envelope by flaunting his "colors" and his right to carry openly at a carnival

How can you flaunt a right?
Open carry is open carry. Period.
It don't matter what he was wearing.

I've ridden for years and most bikers have better attitudes and will help you more than some yuppie sissy boy.

If they feel threatened, that's their personal insecurity. They need a good dose of backbone and not some ego maniac cop thinking its his responsibility to take care of the 'little people".

But it seems that some rights are only available to someone who shops at brooks brothers.

Give me a friggin break!

[MeekandMild]

Please define weird ? Maybe coming to a party among strangers with an attitude and a chip on his shoulder? Maybe the word 'unkempt' stands out? Weird is a matter of what does somebody do to make the LEO's 'weird stranger' radar go off? I wasn't there so I didn't see what really happened, only heard the thirdhand story, obviously slanted to emphasize the RKBA aspects.

I've been in biker bars, rode, rode with bikers, rode amongst bikers, (never been a club member though), seen a lot of casual conversations on the streets between obviously armed bikers and obviously friendly LEOs. Sorry guys, the RKBA slant on this story doesn't add up.

I really wonder the rest of the story, if perhaps the guy was talking to the voices as he rolled into town. The impression I get reading between the lines was maybe not Stephen King's "Trashcan Man" but someone whose elevator didn't quite make it to the top floor.

Jimpeel, quite frankly, I think that the LEO involved did a primo job of protecting this little man from things which rapidly could have gotten out of control had they not been there. You forget that the unsaid reason for having laws to punish criminals is to take the prerogative of punishment out of the hands of the crowd. (Remind me sometime to tell you the story of the lynch mob I saw outside of Sao Paulo Brasil in 1971. Drunk driver made the mistake of hitting another car and hurting the passengers.)

Reckon I must have been polite Probably so.

[MeekandMild]

Did this thread die a natural death or did I kill it? :confused:

[jimpeel]

Just not much left to say beyond more speculation and conjecture.

[Leatherneck]

Ok then, a footnote. My county in Virginia just tossed out the sherrif after eight years in office. The only issue was that over the last two years, he had been continuously trying to expand enforcement by deputies beyond the traditional role of sherrifs in the Commonwealth; namely, jails, courts and traffic control at special events. The paper this morning describes the ousted sherrif as "puzzled by his defeat." Clueless is what I'd call it.

For you LEOs out there, LISTEN UP!

[Leatherneck]

Ok then, a footnote. My county in Virginia just tossed out the sherrif after eight years in office. The only issue was that over the last two years, he had been continuously trying to expand enforcement by deputies beyond the traditional role of sherrifs in the Commonwealth; namely, jails, courts and traffic control at special events. The situation had received some publicity as the County Police objected to it. The paper this morning describes the ousted sherrif as "puzzled by his defeat." Clueless is what I'd call it.

For you LEOs out there, LISTEN UP! Citizens do not want and do not authorize you to exceed your carefully crafted mandate of upholding and defending the Constitution. Period. Clear enough? :scrutiny:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Joe Demko]

An additional footnote: The Sheriff described in this incident won yesterday for a third term. He is very popular among Republicans and Democrats alike. It would seem the voters from both parties in his county do not see him as a rights-trampling JBT.

[Balog]

An additional footnote: The Sheriff described in this incident won yesterday for a third term. He is very popular among Republicans and Democrats alike. It would seem the voters from both parties in his county do not see him as a rights-trampling JBT.

Maybe they like being "protected" at the cost of their rights (a lot of people like the Patriot Act, too). Maybe they've never seen or been subject to his decision that they didn't look law abiding enough to exercise their rights. Maybe he only gets off on abusing his power on side streets with no witnesses. And maybe his electorate is as prejudiced as he is. A lot of sheriffs in the South have been popular for suppressing the rights of negroes. Don't make it right.

[Joe Demko]

Maybe. But I don't think so.

[MeekandMild]

Maybe. But I don't think so. Agreed. Tell me, did you do your best to slant the report to hold it in a positive RKBA light, but just couldn't do it enough to convince yourself? Not casting aspersions, it just looks like it was a super-weak RKBA example that could not pass muster despite its best presentation.

Also, since you first posted, is there any more information from the original sources to show whatever happened to the little man with the hairy belly or did he just fade away?

[Balog]

it just looks like it was a super-weak RKBA example that could not pass muster despite its best presentation.


Uhhh, what? A law abiding citizen being arbitrarily denied his right to carry is "super-weak" how exactly? Oh wait, I forgot he looked different than the people around him; and was thus subject to summary execution by the homicidally trigger happy "good citizens."

Edit for formatting

[Joe Demko]

Agreed. Tell me, did you do your best to slant the report to hold it in a positive RKBA light, but just couldn't do it enough to convince yourself? Not casting aspersions, it just looks like it was a super-weak RKBA example that could not pass muster despite its best presentation.

Actually, I didn't look at it as a really an RKBA issue at all. I looked at it as an example of bad judgement. Whatever the ideal version of the right to keep and bear arms might be, and whatever the ideal police officer might be like, there are certain realities that must be dealt with. One of those realities is that the po-po will notice you (probably in a way you won't like) if you dress to stand out in a "bad guy" costume, openly carry a weapon, and then show up at an event staged for little kids in a small town (a small town where you are a stranger, moreover). Right or wrong, they are going to be interested in you. Mainly because of the gun, but I expect a "disreputable" looking man (alone) wandering around in a children's event would still pique the interest of the average policeman.

Also, since you first posted, is there any more information from the original sources to show whatever happened to the little man with the hairy belly or did he just fade away?

AFAIK, he got on his motorcyle and rode back to whatever town in the neighboring county he calls home.

[Balog]

Right or wrong, they are going to be interested in you.

Interest is one thing. Even polite questioning is no problem to me. Threatening the guy is very wrong. Depriving him of his legal rights is wrong. Period. End of story. It cannot be justified. A law abiding citizen was deprived of his rights for no reason other than his appearance. How can you say this is ok?

[Joe Demko]

How many times do I have to acknowledge that the guy's rights were trampled? Does that sound like I'm saying it is okay? Weeping creeping jeebus! For the last time, my point is that what happened was PREDICTABLE and right/wrong/otherwise the guy it happened to should have known it was going to happen. With that in mind, if he wanted to go ahead and be a martyr for the cause, I'd have nothing to say. But no, he apparently didn't have making a scene for the 2A in mind, now did he? Otherwise, why did he hop back on his two-wheeler just because some cops talked to him? That's all they did, too, was talk to him. Cops say a lot of "pushy" things, and not just because they are the kind of JBT some think everybody in a badge must be. The Sheriff in question isn't the least bit anti-gun. In fact, he was part of a lawsuit AGAINST the BATF together with a gun manufacturer and the NRA. He is, however, anti-nutcase-with-a-9mm-running-amok-in-a-kiddie-carnival.
I still think he wanted some attention. The whole thing, from the costume, to the gun, to doing it all at a street carnival just reeks of an immature cretin with a bad case of "Look at me! I'm Billy Bada$$!" I also think the attention he wanted was to have all the local rubes look at him in awe and fear. He did nothing illegal, ergo his rights were trampled. Attention seeking is not a crime. Nor is it a virtue.

[GySgt]

Golgo,

Discrimination is just that, it doesn't matter if it's racial, sexual, or what you decribed here. If you have a problem with Bikers, then you need to work on that and not come off as a law enforcement authority. You describe yourself as a part timer in a small community, so I have to assume you are nothing close to being a professional. If you can understand that a white sheriff in Mississippi harrassing a black man for being somewhere he was LEGALLY able to be, just because he didn't like blacks is wrong......then how is your departments behavior towards this man acceptable? It's the same thing, period. Perhaps there is more to this story you haven't shared, like a history of Biker's carrying off your women......but I just don't see the problem here.

Good luck with your predjudices.

[Joe Demko]

If you have a problem with Bikers, then you need to work on that and not come off as a law enforcement authority.

Go back. Re-read.

Run a search on me. Look for threads on profiling.

Extract your foot from your mouth.

I'll explain it to you, too, again. I didn't say it was right. I said it was predictable. The "biker" in question was a law-abiding idiot.

[GySgt]

Jeez Golgo,

You seem rather irritated. Have you considered anger management?
I'm sorry if I struck a cord, but you seem to have some issues with the way people dress, or look and that's just unacceptable in today's society. You seem to be defending the Sheriff's actions, therefore I have to assume that you agree with him. And while the Biker may have been an idiot in your opinion, he was within his rights. As a "part time" LEO, your perception seems to be that violating peoples rights is ok, as long as it's not your rights that are being violated. I'm a strong supporter of Law Enforcement, but there are quite a few of you, particularly "part timers" who think they have more rights than the rest of us and that is a little discomforting. Perhaps after your department is sued and the little city/county has to pay out big bucks to settle the issue, they will spend some funds to properly train their people and get them some sensitivity training in addition to giving them a firearm and a box of ammo a month. A psychological evaluation for every applicant would be a good idea as well, don't you agree? There's just too many people that are on "half cock" these days and it's a poor idea to put badges on them.

GySgt

[gunsmith]

Is open carry.
What if he had been carrying a bible? a newspaper?
RKBA is a GOD given right!
If I lived in an open carry state I would do so at my convenience.
If given a hard time I would just hand my lawyers card to him and say talk to this guy,heres my ID as well.
Motorcycles present different problems for gun owners then cars.
Should he have left it in the saddlebags to be stolen?
IIRC there was 2 or 3 times loony pricks went on shooting sprees
in PA killing people for no reason.
Gun owners have a right to sit in the front of the bus!

[MeekandMild]

GySgt, what part of Golgo's post are you having trouble reading?

[Balog]

Golgo: I don't understand. If we agree that his rights were violated, why are you ok with it? I fail to comprehend why you view police abuse of their powers as necessary and predictable. You seem to contradict yourself. Would you be ok if a LEO in another district violated your rights? If not, why are you ok with the violation of his? Because he was asking for it? This makes it ok because why?

[P95Carry]

How many times do I have to acknowledge that the guy's rights were trampled? Does that sound like I'm saying it is okay? Weeping creeping jeebus! For the last time, my point is that what happened was PREDICTABLE and right/wrong/otherwise the guy it happened to should have known it was going to happen. I've stayed out of this pi$$ing contest pretty much but hey .. this part of Golgo's post seems pretty straightfoward to me.!! Doesn't sound like he is condoning the deal .. just admitting it's possible predictability these days.

This could continue goin round in ever decreasing circles .. ad infinitum!:p

[Joe Demko]

Did I say any of it was necessary? No. It was predictable. Otherwise, my annoyance, at times, in this thread stems from the mad rush to portray the psuedo-biker (I agree with whoever said real bikers are too smart to do something like this) as not only a victim, but as some kind of 2A hero. Were you there? No. Was I there? No. I did, however, hear the story pretty much verbatim as I related it to you here. This was during qualification and it was related briefly by the people involved as a mildly interesting incident, not in the form of a detailed briefing. So, there are all sorts of factors none of us know about. Did some of the law officers involved possibly know this guy from other incidents? I don't know. Do you? Was he behaving in some hinky way besides the gun? I don't know. Do you? I do know that the cops and deputies there has been such a stampede to characterize as thugs and Nazis and retarded and egomaniacs are none of those things. I know all of them personally, some of them for my whole life. They are good, decent men. None of them, repeat: none of them are anti-gun, anti-liberty, or even anti-biker. As we can also see on the thread about the school drug raid where Mike Irwin and Sportscat have been so frequently and rudely personally insulted, threads like this too often degenerate into little more than a mob scene where there is a competition to see who can be the most over-the-top and loudest in shouting "Fascist!" and "Jackbooted Thug!" and all the other tired cliches of the 2A discussion scene. You all can continue with it if you want, but I've said all I have to say and invite the first moderator who comes along to lock this thread.

[Oleg Volk]

Looks like a profiling vs. situational awareness thread might be in order.