45 ACP Issues


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nulfisin
September 20, 2009, 12:40 AM
I've always loaded for my rifles, but am new to semi-auto pistol loading. It's a bit of a puzzle and the manuals I have don't give perfect guidance. Some questions for the .45:

1. I'm using a 230 jhp bullet. I try to get the OAL to 1.275, per the Lyman manual, but am sometimes off by a little bit on the short side. How precise does this need to be? My Savage rifle, for example, will easily give me a few hundredths of an inch -- and probably a bit more -- with no accuracy or pressure issues.

2. I've measured my case thickness and am at or slightly below what's listed in the Lyman manual. I'm using RCBS dies. I'm not using case lubricant because of the carbide dies.

3. I'm having trouble just loading rounds into my 1911 MAGAZINE:cuss:. The cases seem do be the right size, or as best I can make them. So, it goes without saying that they won't cycle through my gun. Any pointers here? I don't shoot handguns all that often these days, but don't intend to give up on this problem until it's solved. Thanks in advance.

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helg
September 20, 2009, 01:22 AM
Each bullet design has its own maximum OAL. To find it I put a bullet in into an unprimed and flared brass by about .1", and push this long dummy round to my barrel until it dips the same way as a factory round. The measured length of the extracted dummy will be max OAL for the bullet. It the measured length is shorter than OAL in your loading manual, you need to go down in powder charge and work it up, or find a charge with the right bullet weight, length and OAL.

By my experience, if a round chambers fine in a gun, it fits into magazine for the gun.

In my 45acp load an extra .01" seating depth changes max pressure by about 600psi, which is about 3% of the max pressure for the caliber.

Randy1911
September 20, 2009, 02:27 AM
The OAL of 1.275 is SAAMI maximun length for that cartridge. You can go shorter. For a standard FMJ RN 230 gr. bullet a good OAL is about 1.260". Sometimes it takes a shorter OAL to get it to feed right. If you rounds won't fit in the magazine, you are proably too long.

243winxb
September 20, 2009, 08:58 AM
I'm having trouble just loading rounds into my 1911 MAGAZINE Your OAL is to long. Seat the bullet deeper. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/45seatingpossibilitiesxn.jpg How precise does this need to be? My Savage rifle, for example, will easily give me a few hundredths of an inch .005" is common variation on OAL, some time as much as .010" depending on the reloading press your using.The longest round must let the slide close fully.

Walkalong
September 20, 2009, 09:07 AM
Yep. 1.275 is a max O.A.L., as posted earlier. Many of my mags will not take rounds loaded to 1.275. I load nothing longer than 1.265 in .45 auto.

Using your barrel to determine the max O.A.L. that fits in works well when you have a short throated barrel. For many barrels this isn't needed since max rounds chamber easily, but for some you need to check.

Pick an O.A.L. that will chamber in your barrel (not to long that the bullet gets into the rifling and stops prior to being fully chambered), and then pick an O.A.L. at that mark or shorter that feeds in your gun/s. That is the O.A.L. that you need to use to work up a load with.

No reasonable O.A.L. in .45 auto will get you in trouble pressure wise with the loads listed in reputable sources. (Load books & online data from powder companies)

(Same thing Randy1911 posted basically) :)

Cloudpeak
September 20, 2009, 10:18 AM
The question comes up often enough that the picture posted by 243winxb should be in a sticky.

nulfisin
September 20, 2009, 10:51 AM
You guys rock. I'll try shortening the OAL this week and let you know how it goes.

nulfisin
September 20, 2009, 10:14 PM
Well, I pulled the barrel out to match my rounds to the diagram posted above. It turns out that the cases themselves are too swollen to fit more than about halfway into the barrel. They are about .01 (maybe less) thicker than some factory rounds that fit just as the diagram shows. The brass I'm using was fired once (as factory ammunition when I bought it).

What do you think is causing this problem? How might I avoid it in the future? Thanks again.

Ridgerunner665
September 20, 2009, 10:20 PM
When you resized the brass...did the die and the shell holder touch?

Either the brass is "guppy bellied" from over pressure ammo or they were not resized properly.

OR....You didn't remove the bell from the case mouth (not enough crimp)

Pics would help...

Walkalong
September 20, 2009, 10:22 PM
Is the bell removed completely? A fully sized case should fit in the chamber unless there are real problems. I suppose someone may have fired very heavy loads in that brass, but you don't see it that often in .45 brass.

243winxb
September 21, 2009, 07:12 AM
You may need more taper crimp. The mouth of a crimped loaded round should measure around .473" to .469" Just enough crimp so the rounds chambers.

GW Staar
September 21, 2009, 11:41 AM
Quite often running the brass through a Lee Factory Crimp Die will make your already loaded rounds work. And that's what I like to do anyway, because I like the accuracy I get from using the factory crimp in my Kimber.

But, it doesn't always work and it doesn't solve the original problem. If your dies are set right, your O.A.L. is good then one shouldn't need the Lee FCD to make good reloaded rounds.

Two more possibilities: Over-crimping can make a bulge in your cases. And then there is the "Glock" factor. Certain Glocks leave "smiles" (bulges) in the lower case out of reach of most sizer dies, especially if the load was warm. If you picked up brass from the range, and it was fired from certain models Glock, with unsupported chambers, then that could possibly cause your problems.

Redding makes a special die to correct such deformed brass in .40 cal where the problem is found most often because of inherently higher pressures with that round, but as of yet I've seen no such product made for .45 ACP.

nulfisin
September 21, 2009, 12:00 PM
In an effort to avoid snapping the decapping pin, I think I failed to screw this die down low enough. I'll work on it this week and get back to you all.

Thanks again for the help. I look forward to sharing my own insights with those who need them on this forum.

rcmodel
September 21, 2009, 12:04 PM
Take the barrel out of your gun to use as a guage.
Try sized cases in your barrels chamber.

They should drop in and headspace correctly before belling/expanding and bullet seating.

If they don't, you have a defective sizing die, which is very unlikely.

After loading, try the rounds in the chamber again.

You can "color" a few with a black magic marker or smoke them with a candle flame and then force them into the chamber..

Wherever the black rubs off is your problem.

Not enough crimp to remove the bell is one likelyhood.

Not enough bell and shaving lead off the bullet is another.

In no case should it be necessary to Squish them with a Lee FCD to make them fit if you are doing everything correctly with the standard dies.

BTW: My Lyman manual doesn't list a 230 JHP.
It does list a 225 Speer JHP with an OAL of 1.243.

No JHP I know of could possibly be loaded to the SAAMI max of 1.275.
That is max for a FMJ-RN GI style bullet, and is only shown in the SAAMI drawing at the beginning of the chapter.

The correct OAL for each bullet weight & style is shown with the load data for it.
None in my manual are 1.275"

rc

nulfisin
September 24, 2009, 10:10 AM
The Lyman manual gives 1.275 as a maximum length, which is clearly too much. After I resize, the shell do fit into the chamber the way factory rounds do. After I seat the bullet, though, I get a very slight expansion that is apparently enough to clog the barrel. I measured the bulge, and it's very slight. But enough to cause a problem. Not sure how to handle this.

dsv424
September 24, 2009, 11:12 AM
Lee factory crimp die should fix your problem. Or maybe using more crimp with your seating die. Had a similar problem like yours and got the Lee FCD and that corrected the problem.

Walkalong
September 24, 2009, 11:34 AM
Too large a diameter bullet, not fully removing the bell (not quite enough crimp), or bullet seated a bit crooked so it buldges on one side.

In no case should it be necessary to Squish them with a Lee FCD to make them fit if you are doing everything correctly with the standard dies.Most here know I agree with that statement. The only case I would support is someone using cheap, sometimes oversized, cast bullets that would otherwise be to large in diameter to fit some tight chambers.

GW Staar
September 24, 2009, 08:36 PM
Too large a diameter bullet, not fully removing the bell (not quite enough crimp), or bullet seated a bit crooked so it buldges on one side.

Quote:
In no case should it be necessary to Squish them with a Lee FCD to make them fit if you are doing everything correctly with the standard dies.
Most here know I agree with that statement. The only case I would support is someone using cheap, sometimes oversized, cast bullets that would otherwise be to large in diameter to fit some tight chambers.

Keep in mind that he has rounds he's already loaded and they don't fit. That in my opinion is a case where it may not be necessary, but it is highly desirable, if one prefers "squishing" to having to use a bullet puller. Using the Lee die, mildly sizes the case again (making it fit, in most cases), and the crimp doesn't have to be more than mild.

when I said:
I like the accuracy I get from using the factory crimp in my Kimber.
I should clarify. My loads always fit and shoot just fine without the factory crimp die. I just prefer the uniform bullet release I get when I add a slight crimp with that die. What can I say, it works for me. My groups are smaller with it than without it.

Noveldoc
September 27, 2009, 12:26 PM
I solved the bullet won't feed problem by running them back through third die and putting on a light taper crimp. Guess I had some residual bell.

Tom

Walkalong
September 27, 2009, 12:32 PM
As suggested in posts # 10 & 11, and perhaps others. No need to squish them after all. Excellent. :)

nulfisin
September 27, 2009, 09:24 PM
Glad this thread got some play. I reduced the OAL by at least .01, reduced the flare, and made a tighter crimp.

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