[shephard19]

I was thinking that for the average person, using a knife for self defense may not be a good idea, in fact it may be worse than defending oneself just with your body. First, by drawing a knife(a deadly weapon) a situation is automaticaly escalated, this can create legal problems, and there is a good chance an agressor who might otherwise just have pummeled you may instead choose to stab you with your own knife if the fight goes their way. I was thinking that for a person who is of average strength or less and/or without hand to hand combat training a knife may be more of a potential problem than a help. Thoughts?

[JVoutilainen]

It is a complicated question and there probably is no straight forward answer for it. Knife can be a powerful deterrent, but I doubt it would be a good idea to pull one in the middle of a brawl. Same thing as with a gun... you need a good deal of distance to the opponent to produce a knife safely. In my experience this would be particularly difficult in most situations. Usually there is a verbal confrontation before the actual scuffle and in this phase the aggressor typically comes very very close to you, or at least tries to. And it is a bit difficult to justify pulling a knife because of verbal threats alone, in my opinion.

[bigfatdave]

I think that every law-abiding citizen has the right to defend themselves with whatever the hell they want, be it a nail file, handgun, machine gun, or bazooka.
They of course have a responsibility to be proficient with their SD tools of choice, and to not recklessly endanger the public ... but I'm not about to criticize someone for using a blade for SD as long as they only employ deadly force to stop a threat to their life/health/safety.

That being said, I'm not about to consider a pocketknife as my primary self-defense tool - If I had to choose something other than CC, it would be a baton or other tool that increased my reach more than a knife would.

[hso]

Since a knife can be a deadly weapon you should apply the same reasoning to its use as you would a firearm.

If the use of a firearm would be justified then the use of a knife would be.

Are you defending yourself from imminent threat to your life?

If the answer is "yes" the use would be justified.

If you put yourself willingly into the situation where your life became threatened, didn't walk away from a potential confrontation in a bar, you started an altercation and you began to "loose" the fight, etc., the situation becomes much more complicated, just as it would if you deployed a handgun, and you right to used deadly force to defend yourself is less clear.

The thing to remember is that a knife can be a deadly weapon, that its use in SD is the use of deadly force, and that you will find that the legal implications of using a knife are similar to those of using a gun.

[JVoutilainen]

Dave, I did not criticise and I most certainly did not say that you don't have the right... Furthermore, I added in my opinion meaning that from my personal perspective it is hard to justify, and so on. I fully recognise that my perspective is not the only one.

So, what is the problem?

[bigfatdave]

No problem, I wasn't disagreeing with your reasoning, I was just pointing out that the tool used for SD isn't really relevant when there is a threat to life/health/safety.
Whether someone used a hand grenade, or minivan's bumper to defend their own life/health/safety, they are either justified or not.

[peyton]

Not allowed to carry a firearm in Iraq, they do not allow contractors to have them. My knife is my only defense. My 200lb asthmatic A@@ can not run 100 yards but I plan on making some one hurt if they mess with me.

[JVoutilainen]

Dave,

OK, but I do not see how that is relevant to the issue. When you talk about real situations on the street they are very rarely clear cut - meaning that it is often difficult to determine the exact level of threat you are facing. So, you cannot go all out every time some drunken fool decides to mess with you.

I know this is a bit off-topic but I think one of the most important self defence skill is developing a good psychological eye. If you over react every time someone threatens you you are going to end up looking like a crazy person, regardless of who the aggressor was originally.

[J.Scott]

I think its best to give yourself as many self defense options as you can. I always have a knife and mace on me, and where legal, I carry my 1911. The good thing about mace and knives is you are unlikely to get to get in much trouble if you have it on you where you shouldn't. Say your going into a museum and the metal detector goes off, you have a folder on you. Security will usually just say "You can't bring that in here" --assuming the guys not a total hard-a$$. Kind of like rolling through a stop sign and the cop can either ticket you or let you go. If you seem OK, you'll be allowed to put the knife in the car and come back, just as the cop might simply say "Stop at the stop sign next time". When your are carrying a firearm, you must stay in the bounds of your state's, or wherever you are, laws or you could be in big trouble, like carrying in NYC. You'll get arrested. Or in Peyton's case where it is forbidden, got to rely on something else. So give yourself as many options as you can!

[JVoutilainen]

Yep, and let me add that there really is NO excuse for not practising the basics if you are going to carry a knife for self-defence.

[bigfatdave]

JVoutilainen, either the situation warrants deadly force or it doesn't, if we could only match the force being presented we would have to carry an infinite array of tools.

[earlthegoat2]

I find them to be of use as a last ditch when the fight has hit the ground and kicking and rolling are going on. IF you can get the knife deployed, you had better go for the kill right there and then. Throat, jugular, heart, lungs. Basically stab, dont slash, and keep stabbing over and over until the threat is stopped.

Here is where legalities will come into play. More than likely it will take more stabs to stop the fight, or at least your perception of the fight being stopped, than it would normally with gunfire. If it was an incident involving a firearm you might have to shoot 1,2 or maybe three times. With the knife at contact range it might be more like 10-20. Excessive use of force could easily be acused of and won in court. As few gunfights resulting in death happen every year you better believe there are far fewer fights for your life involving a knife and a jury's ignorance of it will not work in your favor because of this.

[JVoutilainen]

Dave,

How do you know whether the situation warrants deadly force or not? I had a pretty wild youth and in addition, because of my former profession, I've been to many brawls...and I still find situations difficult to judge. You insist it is a black and white issue, but it is not. In theory, yes, but not in real life.

[Birdmang]

I normally carry a knife just for the usefulness of it as a daily tool, I really don't think I would ever pull out a knife in a fight because 1) I don't know how to knife fight 2) If you are outnumbered it might get taken away 3) I don't actively fight so I would most likely be jumped which would be more people than one anyways

That aside, I love using my jack knife, its very handy.

[bigfatdave]

JVoutilainen, I'm insulted that you think I get into brawls for fun, to tell the truth.
The laws regarding self-defense do have grey areas, but a credible threat warrants an effective defense until the threat stops.

[Beelzy]

Well............

I have pulled a knife on someone in a fight, it actually de-escalated the situation.
Funny thing is, it gave me time to break away, but after putting it back in my pocket
we were on the ground rolling around. In retrospect, I should have poked him. LOL!

Knives are TOOLS with multiple uses, cutting an attacker is one of them. A good knife
can save your life in more ways than any firearm.

(PS, cops rolled up on us and broke the brawl up. A few questions and we both went home)

[JVoutilainen]

Dave, you said:

I'm insulted that you think I get into brawls for fun, to tell the truth.

When did I ever say anything like that? I am, quite frankly, mystified by your response.

What would you consider a "credible threat"...? I mean describe it to me, if you please. I have had a drug addict come at me with a knife and I still did not feel threatened enough to use "deadly force", as you would put it. That is because I was fairly confident that I could deal with the situation without anyone, including the attacker, getting hurt - glad I was right.

You are constantly making your point from a purely theoretical standpoint, but what about every day reality? Believe me when I say this, it is exceedingly rare to have a clear-cut situation in real life, which means you simply can NOT react in a textbook fashion most of the time.

[Carl Levitian]

While I am a devout stick man, I don't leave the house without a couple of knives on me, for back up. While one knife will be a knife for sheer utility, the other will be a small pocket fixed blade, or a small lockblade for 'just in case.'

I do not believe a knfe is a liabiltiy, nor do I buy into the 'it will just esculate things' train of thought. I never buy the 'they'll take it away from you' stuff either.

I had to pull out a knife a while back due to my own stupidity and blundering around in condition white. I was faced with two would be muggers, one with a kitchen knife. I on the other hand had only a tiny Buck Hartsook to respond to the treat or give them my wallet and cell phone. My stick had been left in the car as I was going to be carrying a Tiffeny lamp back out to the car and wanted to have my hands free. I chose to make a stand. They backed down from me, a social security retiree with a 1 7/8ths little fixed blade in hand and harsh language. They chose to back off.

Criminals are not fighters, but just a preditore looking for an easy meal. You flunk the interview if it looks like you can do some harm to them. And they do know what can do harm. If they've been in the clink, they know what a shanking can do with a crude object, let alne a good sharp knife in the hands of a determined foe.

Contrary to some internet comando opinions, the averige street punk out to get you to "give it up!" is not the cell block evquivent of Chuck Norris. He's not going to engage in a knife fight on the bet that you have enough money in your wallet to make it worthwhile. Nor is he going to make some fancy moves and take your blade away from you in the blink of an eye. Getting cut means an ER, and questions he does not want to answer. Getting cut means a very good chance he's going to be caught. A knife fight on the street means lots of attention, especially with a would be victim yelling for somebody to call the police.

If it comes to rolling around on the ground, that's a perfect time for a small fixed blade. Something that cn be just grabbed and yanked out and used. Nothing to open, no thumb holes to deal with. How long is an agressor going to keep trying to take you down with holes being punched in his anatomy.

While I love my sticks, I also keep a small easy to accsess small fixed blade on me. You never can tell what's going to happen.

[glistam]

A worthy consideration to ponder is "What situations am I likely to encounter in which I would need to use force?"

The answers to this question are different for each person, and merit some careful thought. Some a knife might work, others it really will be useless.

Personally, I have drawn a knife twice on another human being, but never come to inflicting wounds. One was a situation where a guy much larger than me was amusing himself my smacking the back of my head. I finally pulled a metal mess-kit knife I had for lunch and screamed at him that I would cut him if he tried that again. He kind of paused for a moment, kind of stunned, and I held the knife higher like I was squaring off for him to try something. He never came near me again.

On the flip side, I've seen numerous cases in the ER where a person's been stabbed in excess of 20 times, and still managed to either run for 5 blocks or beat their attacker unconscious. While the stabbed person would often die or barely survive, they still got a surprising amount done in that critical time. This gave me a dull view of the "stopping power" of a pocket knife. There have been cases where the victim didn't even know they'd been stabbed, didn't feel a darn thing, until after they'd already run away or killed their attacker. I've had injuries myself where I didn't feel anything even though I had deep puncture wound until I noticed the blood.

[Phydeaux642]

I carry a knife as a tool for every day chores. I am not a knife fighter, and I don't play one on TV. I don't carry a knife just for self-defense. I do carry a gun, but I still don't think I would carry a knife just for self-defense. If I can, I like to have a cane with me. I've been riding a bicycle lately, so, a cane is not practical. On the other hand, the Kryptonite U-lock I have in my bag would surely put the hurt on someone. The can of mace on my handlebars might come in handy, also.

[JVoutilainen]

Heh, glistam mentioned ER... One night, years ago, when I worked in a hospital (security) they brought in a man who had a small vegetable knife sticking in his back (blade was all the way in) - right between his spine and shoulder blade. He was conscious and smiling. There was no blood. I heard the police ask the guy "how did that knife end up in your back?" the guy said "I don't know...I was pealing an apple and it must have slipped somehow". Made me smile :D.

I agree that puncture wounds seldom incapacitate right away, although they might be fatal eventually.

[bigfatdave]

JVoutilainen, it isn't MY problem to protect the well-being of an attacker with a knife. Good for you on being capable of handling a single situation, and presenting someone to the police to arrest is preferable to presenting them with a corpse ... but someone rushing you with a knife is a deadly threat - there is no more escalation to be done. If you had done a lousy job of subduing that junkie with a knife, or if he had had a friend, the situation would have been quite different.
Under the laws in most of the US, you would have been entirely justified in stopping that threat by whatever means you had at your disposal. Unless you have deliberately antagonized the person posing a deadly threat, in which case the whole situation is your own fault, of course.

I don't see how your "wild youth" has any bearing on the choices and actions of a prudent adult. Even though I'm a fairly formidable guy in a fist-fight, I'm not about to rely on that if faced with a threat to my life/safety, and you were implying that the occasional brawl was good enough reason to pull a knife - obviously it is not, because a brawl is generally not as clear-cut as criminal assault of a victim.

[JVoutilainen]

Dave,

The problem at the moment is that we are not communicating with each other very efficiently at the moment. Let me explain.

You say:

and you were implying that the occasional brawl was good enough reason to pull a knife

You see, Dave, the funny thing is I never actually said anything like that.

Maybe my English is bad, or you do not take the time to really think about what I am trying to say. What ever the reason for our communications breakdown, I think we should just agree to disagree.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors/ IMHO

Knife is more of a help if you are determined to resist .
Knife is a liability if you are just trying to scare them away .

A Swiss army or leatherman stlye knife is seen as a tool.
A folding knife is seen as handy.
A fixed blade is seen as a weapon.

I carry, in left front pocket Swiss Army Farmer with saw blade,2 folding blades...... and also a slim ,2 inch Gerber folder under my walllet right rear.

I have carried a knife ,as a tool, everyday possible since I was ten years old. Mostly some version of Swiss and am comfortable with their uses.

If using knife to defend myself I would not brandish, I would surprise. I would also recommend studying a little anatomy, focusing on arteries.

[dev_null]

Peyton:

Maybe you should get one of these:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/17/002017/ph-0.jpg

[J.Scott]

Many years ago I pulled a knife in self defense. It was the one and only time I did. I did so in complete fear of my life.

A friend of mine and I walked to the local convenience store to get some snacks. On our way out we passed a large group (10-15) of young men (aged 17-20 roughly). One of the men made a snide remark to my friend (who is a big fella, and not one you would have assumed to be an easy target). We wisely ignored and kept walking back to a third friend's house. We were also smart in that we kept an eye out for the group.

They started to follow us, making comments and such. we were about 30 yards ahead of them. We quickly made a series of turns and avoided going to our friend's for fear of them trashing his house. That was our reasoning, though we should have gone to his house and called the police, but we did what we did. It was long before the era of cell phones or beepers even, so no mobile phone options existed. regrettably, we made a few wrong turns and ended coming around a corner at a brisk pace to discover we in an alley, not a street, and it dead ended. Very movie like I know.

Most of the large group had split up trying to follow us, and a group of five found us in the alley. We dropped the snack bags, stood side by side and pulled Buck folders (I'm not sure if Benchmade or Syderco, or Strider, etc even existed yet) and gave them the old "Ok, c'mon then". It stopped the splinter group in their tracks, and turned them around. Once they were out of site we back tracked down the alley very cautiously, knives out, until we could peek down the streets, and make our escape from the area and back to our friend's house. We did have the benefit of it being night, with only street lights and the lights from inside the apartment buildings and moon lighting the way.

I think that one cannot ever be sure of which one of the endless possibilities could come up for self defense. It has been more than 23 years since I last pulled a knife, but I still practice the little knife fighting techniques I still remember, and I still carry a folder ( a Benchmade Osborne), because you just never know what will come up. I don't look for it certainly, and would try like hell to avoid a confrontation, but as I posted earlier, I want all the options I can parctically carry or use available.

[middy]

My knife is a tool. Pepper spray is much more likely to stop an attacker and much less likely to kill him.

It's too easy to kill with a knife, and it takes too long for them to bleed out. Not worth it unless you think you can scare them off with it. Sticks, bottles, trash can lids, etc, just laying around are probably a better bet.

[Carl Levitian]

I think some of you are a little confused. Isn't the goal to stop an attack and make the criminal go away?

For over 40 years I've been reading the Armed citizen collum in the american Rifleman. It's long been a lesson of how often the mere presentation of a gun stops the crime. I feel based on my own experiance, a knife is pretty much the same thing. A knife will cut you, even kill you. The criminal knows that.

The better half and I watch a lot of the nature shows. They had one where a lepard was going after a warthog. The warthog saw the big cat and backed up to a bramble thicket and faced the cat clickiing his nice big tusks in a very defiant mannor. The lepard hesitated, looking at the warthog for a bit, then walked away. He was interested in a pork dinner when the warthog was unaware of him, but when the warthog faced him with some weapons to bear, the preditory cat backed off. It was not worth getting gored over. The cat could have taken him, but it was not going to be one sided, so he walked.

Street punks and criminals are the same cloth. They want to take you down, but they don't want to end up in the ER doing it. The knife as a openly displayed weapon is not a liability at all. It's making an open declaration of 'hey, you may get me, but yu're gonna need a medic when we're done.' A knife is an intimidating weapon. It does very serious damage without a lot of brute strength used. Small females and old people can still cut you or stab you good.

I know by myself, I am not an intimidating figure. At 68 years old, white beard, and a limp, 5 foot 9 and 160 pounds, I'm not that big or even able. But when two young punks, bigger than me, stronger than me, and one armed with a kitchen knife, backs down from a confrontation where they had already demanded my wallet and cell phone, one has to question why?

The only factor had to be the little Buck knife in my hand, and my statements that I was going to cut his blankety-blank throat before I went down, and some other saltly language added. Before that, a long while ago, I had three street guys in Frederick Maryland back off when I cocked back ready to start swinging with my blackthorn. And I made it very clear I was going to be swinging. Three of them. Like the two punks with the knife, they could have taken me down, but it was going to be after the fight. They didn't have the guts for it. It wan't worth it to them for any possable money I may have had on me.

When I was a police officer, I had a couple of calls I remember, where an intruder into a home with a female was chased out by a relitive small woman wielding a very large chefs knife in one case, and another home where two college co-eds were staying and chased off a person trying to jimmy open the back door, by yelling and coming at him with one girl swinging a cast iron fry pan, and the other girl had a very long pair of sissors in her hand. They were fiesty, and were going to fight, so the would be intruder left in a hurry.

I think the display of a weapon, any kind of weapon, with the indications of a will to use it, will make about 90% or more of the criminals you run into back off. Unless of course they have a gun and you don't. I guess I may have been lucky in that most street crime here does not involve firearms. In D.C. and Maryland they seem to save the guns for 7-11's and pizza delivery people.

I can't see any way a knife is a liability at all, in under any conditions.

Even with an relitivly untrained person, with the fear and adreniline dump in the system, and a sharp knife in hand, trying to take them out means getting cut. Getting cut is very bad on the street. Try taking one of your co-workers, and give them a un-capped sharpie. Tell them to pretend its a knife, and your a mugger. Take another sharpie that's going to be your knife, and try to do them harm. Count how many black marks you end up with on your hands. When I was involved with the art of fencing, one of the most difficult people to fence against was the rank beginer. They were unskilled, but that made them unpredictable. They tended to slash and thrust wildly when panicked, and they would connect by sheer chance and accident. Getting stabbed in the chest by accident is just as bad as on purpase.

A scared panicked person with a sharp blade is not who I want to deal with if I was a mugger or sexual preditor, a bar bully looking for a patsy to beat up, or just a phycho serial killer out looking for another victim.

It's the warthog syndrome.

[7X57chilmau]

I believe you stated that well, Carl.

I carry a Kershaw Leek and a 2-3/8" fixed blade, but like so many here they're tools, rather than weapons. Faced with a threat to my life and limb, I'd not hesitate to make their presence and my willingness to use them known. I've never been presented with that situation.

I don't expect that actual use would be necessary, but by the geezes they'll believe I'm willing....

J

[bikerdoc]

Well said my friend!
Let us all take a lesson from the warthog. If you want what I got, try to come and take it, but it is going to cost you bigtime. Is it worth the effort?
The older I get the less patience I have. Either get it on or get along. Your choice.

[middy]

It's the warthog syndrome.

Meanwhile the skunk walks by unmolested...

I would rather not have to deal with the hassle of some jerk bleeding out and dying on me if I had to cut him, that's all.

[hso]

middy,

The problem is that all the predators know what a skunk is and allows it to walk by. It's awfully difficult to tell the skunks from the warthogs from the fuzzy bunnies in this world until the teeth are shown.

The question of whether a knife is more of a liability or not rests on how the knife is used and not on whether a knife was present.

With the knife being a deadly weapon the answer depends upon whether deadly force was justified in the first place.

[bigfatdave]

Maybe my English is bad, or you do not take the time to really think about what I am trying to say. What ever the reason for our communications breakdown, I think we should just agree to disagree. Actually, your English is quite good. Perhaps I was misinterpreting your comments to imply more than you meant.
I was under the impression that you thought someone carrying a knife would use it in a situation like a fist-fight or other situation where an immediate threat to life was not present. I responded by attempting to point out that a knife (or any other deadly force) is not an appropriate response to a non-deadly threat.
To put it in semi-legal terms, employing deadly force to stop an assault with a deadly weapon is generally acceptable, while employing deadly force to stop a fist-fight is generally not*. Use of a knife in self-defense is obviously deadly force, but the mere presence of a blade in the pocket of someone is not a liability until they use it in an irresponsible manner.



*(barring a severe disparity in strength or vulnerability that would make the aggressor's fists themselves a deadly threat)

[Black Toe Knives]

I have took my concealed carry test a few years back. The Intructor which is an ex cop. He said he never carried a weapon. He reason was he never put himself in position that he would need a gun. I live by the same rule.


I carry a knife as a tool to cut. I never think of how I can defend myself with a pocket knife. I carry a Kershaw Ener-G which opens as fast as an auto. I carry not because it is fast. I carry it because I always need a knife I can open with one hand

I do lots of Traveling. I have lived in Louisville, Memphis and Baton Rouge.
I delivered pizzas when I was younger. I hung out in some serious redneck and cajun bars. I never had my life threaten to the point I felt I would need to shoot or stick anyone. I live now where I don't worry if my door are unlocked or not

Don't get me wrong I keep my shotgun loaded along with my Remmie 58.
I guess I would never bring a knife to a gun fight. Plus I don't go to Gun fights

[Ron James]

Some very good points from every one. I have taught my sons ( I hope) that the best thing to bring to a knife fight is some one else. Having been cut in a previous life I hope they heed my advise. Cold steel is a scary thing.:banghead: Black Toe, a very good philosophy, I really believe that it is very easy to know when to apply deadly force, the hardest thing is to know when not too. And what is even harder for a young man with all his testosterone bouncing around, is to know when it's time to look around and decide it's best to be somewhere else.

[conwict]

I have took my concealed carry test a few years back. The Intructor which is an ex cop. He said he never carried a weapon. He reason was he never put himself in position that he would need a gun. I live by the same rule.

That's like saying "I never wear my seatbelt because I would never cause a wreck." Yes, you should feel confident in your decision making abilities and skills, but a gun is a last ditch tool that you use when someone else causes you harm.

[The Highlander]

I keep on hearing people bring up drunken altercations. Either plan to not drink or leave the knife at home. I've heard (but am not an expert and may be incorrect) that CCW holders aren't allowed to carry in places primarily designed for the distribution of alcohol. If you think you're going to get drunk and get in a rumble leave the blade home. Or better yet steer clear of the situation altogether.

And when I think of knife defense I usually think of attempted muggings, guys on pcp, rapists, etc.

edit:
That's like saying "I never wear my seatbelt because I would never cause a wreck." Yes, you should feel confident in your decision making abilities and skills, but a gun is a last ditch tool that you use when someone else causes you harm.I gotta say I agree 100%. You can be the best driver in the world and some moron can ram into you. You can go to the "safest" place and there could be a gunman. While unlikely, these things happen, and the more trained good guys we have on the street with guns the better.

[unloved]

I've heard (but am not an expert and may be incorrect) that CCW holders aren't allowed to carry in places primarily designed for the distribution of alcohol.

It depends. State laws vary.

[Carl Levitian]

"I have took my concealed carry test a few years back. The Instructor which is an ex cop. He said he never carried a weapon. He reason was he never put himself in position that he would need a gun. I live by the same rule. "




That is the most naive statement I have ever heard. The fact that it came from an ex-cop makes it even more so. As an ex-cop I have exactly the opposite experience. Fact; sometimes bad things happen to good people. Do you think every one of those murder victims were deserving to die in a brutal manner before their time??? Police blotters are filled with good people who met a bad end because they didn't plan in that wackjob cutting their throat for the few dollars they had on them.

I can only wonder if he'd consider going to a college campus to lecture would be considered a place where he'd not need a gun? If he was in a classroom at Virginia Tech on a fateful morning, I believe he'd give anything to have a gun in hand then. Or how about meeting his family at a local eating place in Texas for lunch, called Luby's? I'm sure Todd Beamer got on the plane that morning, having no idea he was going to have to take on some hijackers barehanded to try to take back the plane.

I'm sure that Annie Le went to the lab that day, not having any idea she was going to be strangled and her body stuffed in the wall.

The simple truth is that when you walk out your front door in the morning, only God above knows what's going to happen. The rest of us mortals have to deal with it as it happens. I prefer to deal with life by being as prepared as I can and still stay within the law.

For an ex-cop to have uttered something like that is incredible to me. I can only wonder if he was a cop in Mayberry.

The streets are full of predators looking, seeking, new victims. They walk among you everyday without you knowing it. Usually they are stalking the very young, the old, women, and any easy prey that looks like they would pose no threat to themselves. Wolves will circle the herd, looking for those at the back that can't keep up. Like the very young, old, and infirm. Being old enough to have mostly white hair now, and being a bit disabled with a bum wheel under me, I've seen the wolves circle. I'm at the back of the herd now, and I plan on making myself look as un-appealing as possible. That means a layered defense. I have my stick, and 99.9% of the time it's with me. But what if a wold gets inside the range of the antlers? Then there's hooves to kick with.

Layered defense.

Stick for long reach, blade for close in grappling or like Johnny said, 'rolling around in the mud and the blood and the beer.' At my age, the wolves are too young and strong to be grappling with, so there's the 'just in case' layer. A little sharp something to shove in and pump and twist around a bit. The last ditch kind of thing.

Not going where, or putting yourself in position where you may need a weapon? Please tell me how to live my life without going out my door?

I apologize to any I may offend by being blunt, but a statement like that, coming from a source like that, is just not to be swallowed easy.

[Black Toe Knives]

Carl with all due respect. You didn't offend me but it show how naive you are. Fact are facts. You are twice as likely to kill yourself than some A-hole with a gun. So no I don't lock my doors hell I want to be able to get away, If I am assaulted by myself.
Why would I carry a Gun? Why would I give anyone a Gun that is twice as likely to kill me than a murder? Sir please don't be offend by my Wit and Intelligence. Carl you called me Naive what did you expect. :)

2008 death statics

12000 Homicides
26000 Suicides

[unloved]

Fact are facts. You are twice as likely to kill yourself than some A-hole with a gun. So no I don't lock my doors hell I want to be able to get away, If I am assaulted by myself. No I don't carry a Gun, Why would give anyone a Gun that is twice as likely to kill me than a murder.

Are you serious?

[Black Toe Knives]

LMAO. Kind of tongue in cheek. But Facts are Facts. Carl called me Naive what did he expect. :)

[Carl Levitian]

"Why would I carry a Gun? Why would I give anyone a Gun that is twice as likely to kill me than a murder? Sir please don't be offend by my Wit and Intelligence. Carl you called me Naive what did you expect. "








If you even halfway believe that kind of nonsense that's put out by Sarah Brady and her bunch, you need to read the report of Dr. Gary Klerk on the use of firearms in America. There are at least a million times a year that guns save lives. Those figures you are quoting are right out of Sarah Brady's anti-gun drivel.

So tell me, if you don't believe in carrying a gun, why did you bother to go through the course, and why are you even on a firearms based forum?

People who live in a state where they can CCW should take full advantage of carrying all the time. Every human being has the right to defend themselves, and a firearm is the great equalizer. It makes a small woman the equal of a large man with a pull of her index finger. It stops an attack by a knife wielding psycho. It saves a homeowners life if that home is invaded in the middle of the night by those with evil in their hearts. But most of all, you should carry because you can. We have the great fortune of living in a country with the right to bear arms written into our constitution, of which has been reaffirmed by the Heller case. Carrying a firearm, where allowed, is an exercise of our rights as free Americans that our forefathers fought a long bloody war with England to gain. The very first shot of the war was the shot at Old North Bridge at Concord, when the British troops were going to take the stockpile of powder stored there.

And it is a naive statement to say one does not carry a gun because he doesn't go where he will need one. That is probably the most naive statement I have ever heard. I have some other names I could use for it, but then this is supposed to be the high road, for calm discussion. Crime knows no bounds. It can happen as pointed out, on a college campus, a restaurant, a shopping mall, or in your own home. Oh, but you admit that you do keep a gun loaded by your bed, so you contradict yourself, or I just don't understand what the heck your talking about.

I've been reading the American Rifleman for about 50 years now, and that includes the Armed Citizen column. All those people who defend themselves each year have been just going about their business. Everything to loading groceries in their car, to walking the dog. They had the bad luck to have a bad person confront them, but the good luck to have a loaded handgun on them. They survived to go on about their life. If the Sarah Brady's had their way, there would be a lot more murder victims in the cemeteries of this country. I believe it is a very naive attitude to go around unarmed and saying that if you don't go where trouble is, you don't need to be armed. If you wish to face facts, the facts are trouble can happen anywhere, at anytime. If you have any doubts, just read a newspaper on a regular basis. Fact; too many good people die because they were not prepared when trouble came.

You will have to excuse me sir, but that attitude expressed by the supposed ex-cop is one of a sheep, and I do not intend to live my life bleating and depending on a sheepdog to keep me safe. I am responsible for myself, and I do not wish to pass that responsibility on to others. As a result, I will go armed as much as I can under Maryland law, and if I move to a state that has a CCW, I will be carrying a firearm. As is my right as an American.

This thread was a discussion of a knife as a liability, and pro's and cons. You wander in and drop a comment quoting some ex-cop about not carrying a weapon because if you don't go where there's trouble you won't need one, and get offended because I used the word naive???

I stand by any and all statements I have made, and I have to wonder if that statement was indeed made by a person who was on a police force, then he must have done a great deal of his time on parking meter duty. I can't believe any cop with time on the streets, who has seen the violent, sick, ruthless scum that roam about, would make a statement like that.

Naive- a. Deficient in informed judgement, b. Marked by unaffected simplicity.

[Black Toe Knives]

Carl, I am Naive now I am a Liar? There you go. You are one very well informed individual. You know me me better than I know myself.

BTW Carl your doctors are 9 times more likely to kill you accidentally than a Someone with a Gun. 90000 Accidentally medical death vs 10000 Gun deaths.

After this research I think I am going to unload my guns in my house. There really isn't a need unless Doctors start making house calls again.

[Coyote3855]

Carl, you are in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

[Black Toe Knives]

Coyote, LOL. They say People never kick a dead dog. So Thank you.

[ArfinGreebly]

That will be all, gentlemen.

If you want to kid around and use tongue-in-cheek humor, make sure your audience can keep up, otherwise it degenerates into indignation and sarcasm.

And then someone like me has to step in.

If you want to debate the wisdom of carrying one weapon over another, or indeed, the carrying of a weapon at all, then the place for that is Strategy & Tactics.

You might want to dispense with the name-calling, sarcasm, and condescension though.

Thread might last longer if you maintain civility.