concealed carry in public schools Poll


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6.5x55swedish
September 20, 2009, 09:51 AM
I was at a show yesterday and was talking to a guy manning the Concealed Carry Coalition's booth and he said they had a petition going that I might be interested in signing. I went over to look at it and it was to petition the state to drop the ban on guns on public school property so that people could carry concealed at school. I looked at him and said that out of respect for the many people who have kids in school who probably would not want staff and teachers to be packing a weapon I would not sign the petition.

My point of view is that if such a ban where to be lifted it should actually be because the parents of those kids requested such legislation, not be cause some Joe blow at a gun show thinks it is a good idea.

So I am interested in what some of us pro-gun Joe blows think :D

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proud2deviate
September 20, 2009, 10:05 AM
Bad things happen to good people in nice places. I voted yes.

bigfatdave
September 20, 2009, 10:11 AM
People packing legally aren't a danger ... the real question is, "should criminals be allowed in schools" ... who cares what a law-abiding citizen might have tucked somewhere, when someone with no regard for the law will walk in with whatever they want.

"gun free zones" don't protect anyone but the lawless.

6.5x55swedish
September 20, 2009, 10:30 AM
These where previously law abiding public school workers. This situation would have been terrible had school been in session at the time and several hundred kids would be in counseling and those who witnessed a guy killed in their school would have been affected for life.
http://www.kentucky.com/179/story/824496.html

bigfatdave
September 20, 2009, 10:36 AM
And making the school a "gun (and knife) free zone" made how much difference?

Perhaps we should declare schools as "murder free zones" instead and deal with the crime instead of restricting the tools non-criminals can carry?

Jamie C.
September 20, 2009, 10:54 AM
I voted yes, and I do have a kid in public school, and other young relatives there as well. ( A nephew )

As a matter of fact, I think that anyone who's gone to the time and trouble to follow the rules, obey the law, and get a permit should be allowed to carry in any public building anywhere in the state, as well as any public-accessible property in the state.

The only exception to this, is that I don't think a person should be allowed to carry a weapon in a courtroom while proceedings are going on.

Other than that though, any place a person is allowed to go should be okay.


J.C.

bigfatdave
September 20, 2009, 11:07 AM
The only exception to this, is that I don't think a person should be allowed to carry a weapon in a courtroom while proceedings are going on.Why not?

SKILCZ
September 20, 2009, 11:13 AM
Criminals don't obey the "Gun-Free Zone" laws, anyway, so it makes no sense to oppose allowing adults who legally carry everywhere else in society (including around kids) to continue doing so when they step onto public school property. Moreover, public schools are owned by the public (i.e. the taxpayers), so why should the public not be able to carry there? If I'm paying taxes for the school, I expect to be able to exercise my 2A rights there.

scottaschultz
September 20, 2009, 11:16 AM
The only exception to this, is that I don't think a person should be allowed to carry a weapon in a courtroom while proceedings are going on.

Why not?
Two words: Kenneth Baumruk

From "The Missouri Lawyers Media:
"The Missouri Supreme Court has set an Aug. 7 execution date for Kenneth Baumruk, for his 1992 shooting spree in St. Louis County Circuit Court where he shot and killed his wife and wounded four others. During his divorce hearing in Division 38, Baumruk pulled out two .38 caliber revolvers, shooting and killing his wife"

NG VI
September 20, 2009, 11:22 AM
out of respect for the many people who have kids in school who probably would not want staff and teachers to be packing a weapon I would not sign the petition.

My point of view is that if such a ban where to be lifted it should actually be because the parents of those kids requested such legislation, not be cause some Joe blow at a gun show thinks it is a good idea.


Seems like you don't have a whole lot of faith in your state's ability to weed out the bad apples during the permit application process, or in the school's ability to hire people we would want around our children.

My daughter is 8 months old, so I don't have any kids in school yet, but I would be a hell of a lot more comfortable knowing that maybe one or two responsible teachers had the capability to put a stop to a school shooting incident. Every time a private citizen, teacher, or student (colleges) who is an intended victim of a mass shooter responds with a weapon it has worked out as well as can be hoped for. Compare that to all the times no one could fire back, and I think you'll understand why I fully support that petition.

AK103K
September 20, 2009, 11:26 AM
Who says you cant carry in a public school?


Pennsylvania Uniform Firearm Acts

Title 18

§912. Possession of Weapon on School Property.

(a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose. (Added by L.1980, Act 167(1), eff. 12/15/80.)


As with most of these type "rules", they all seem to have the "any other lawful purpose" clause (which is usually always hidden at the end and never cited when they do quote the cite), which leads me to believe that they cant prohibit it without violating your constitutional rights. The post office cites also have the same clause.

Birdmang
September 20, 2009, 11:31 AM
I voted "NO and I do have kids in public school," I don't have kids but I am a kid in a public school.

I voted kind of wrong and read into the question a little differently.

I don't think students should be able to CC in high school, ex. 18 y/o with a carry permit...bad idea.

I believe that teachers and janitors and workers for the school should be allowed to carry at work.

I believe that college students should be able to carry on campus, but there should be some kind of course you have to take about being safe and what to do in case of a campus shooting, because I have been somewhat involved with a campus shooting and it COULD be worse off if a student saw a student with a gun and didn't think through what to do before shooting.

6.5x55swedish
September 20, 2009, 11:32 AM
The difference is that people disagree frequently in the work place. I think that having concealed carry in the school system will naturally bring more guns into the school that otherwise would not be there and increase the incidences of co-worker shooting. These are teachers and school staff, not trained law enforcement.

Micheal McLendon followed the law, got his concealed carry permit and then killed his mother and 9 other random people. Richard Poplawski also followed the law and got his permit and then killed 3 cops. The CC class is a joke as is the screening process is non-existent. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that in high Schools we have 21 year olds who haven't graduated, but would be eligible to carry concealed with a permit. These are kids who are not even responsible enough to take school seriously, but you would be okay with them legally packing guns to school.

Gozer
September 20, 2009, 11:38 AM
6.5x55swedish - I hate to point out the obvious, but I rather suspect that the janitor in question was NOT legally armed in the school building that day, meaning the bans/rules/policies did no good in preventing the incident. And had it been more than a personal vendetta and he HAD cut loose during a school day, precious little would have stopped him. Not saying other armed folks on campus can change outcomes (the bad guy almost always has the advantage of surprise and initiative, and in many situations, such as a crowded cafeteria, it would probably be irresponsible to engage (at least at first, unless both you and the bad guy were clear between and behind) and better to focus on helping clear the area), but if there is a chance to prevent or limit a tragedy, I suport having that chance available.

Personally, I would like for CCW holders to be able to carry on campus, both pre-college and college/tech schools. If you wanted to add some kind of rider that said you needed to be CCW for X number of years or older than Y or something like that in order to make other parents more comfortable, I would be fine with that, as long as the numbers were reasonable (as others have said, probably a good idea in fact). I could even be had for a special training class/endorsement requirement, again as long as it was reasonable.

The only real exception would be a school that has strong perimeter security (metal detectors, etc.) - in those cases, where the internal environment is somewhat sanitized, the disruption and attention garnered crossing the perimeter with a permitted weapon would probably not be a good idea.

6.5x55swedish
September 20, 2009, 11:49 AM
VI:
ask yourself this. Do you want these teachers of your daughter to be legally armed?

http://www.mercurynews.com/sunnyvale/ci_13273650?nclick_check=1

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0809/650019.html

http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/bergen/329-married-phys-ed-teacher-charged-with-having-sex-with-minor

http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4652931

http://www.qctimes.com/news/local/article_c5fba43a-8775-11de-8bca-001cc4c03286.html

bigfatdave
September 20, 2009, 11:55 AM
scottaschultz, and you think a "no guns" sign would have stopped Kenneth Baumruk?

Disarming citizens will not deter crime. Allowing citizens to legally carry can sure cut a crime spree short though.

6.5x55swedish, I don't think any of those links you posted had anything to do with violent crime, so I really don't see the relevance.

NG VI
September 20, 2009, 12:14 PM
I don't think students should be able to CC in high school, ex. 18 y/o with a carry permit...bad idea.

Most states with CC laws don't allow people under 21 to get permits. Even if they did, less than 1% of people eligible for carry permits get them, so it seems like kind of a non-issue.

6.5x55swedish
September 20, 2009, 12:26 PM
Bigfatdave:

the relevance is in that the education system cannot screen and hire teachers who do not sexually exploit their students, but some think that a guy with a minivan that says "get your CCWP class" on the back can screen and train these teachers to be responsible with a deadly weapon in the class room?

I could see putting a few teachers through a special police academy style training program and then allowing them to carry a weapon in class, but to just say "you has a permit, you can bring a gun to school" is ludicrous.

NG VI
September 20, 2009, 12:27 PM
The CC class is a joke as is the screening process is non-existent.


It isn't the job of CC instructors to screen their students, it is the responsibility of the state and local law enforcement who issues the permit. The instructors can only screen for unsafe behavior. Why would you think that a firearms instructor is responsible for performing background checks and application processing for law enforcement?

And my state has about eight pages of paperwork to fill out, after which the applicant waits about a month for the local police department or state police to follow through on the application and do a variety of background checks.

Again, less than 1% of eleigible adults in any given area will apply for and get their carry permit, and those adults tend to be the best of the best in their communities as far as criminal behavior goes. I think you are really blowing workplace disagreements out of proportion and are being extremely unfair to our professional educators. Not all of them have brains, but they all have degrees and they all work with our children full time. If they can't be trusted to not shoot their co-workers over a disagreement at work then why the hell should they be trusted with our children at all?


that a guy with a minivan that says "get your CCWP class" on the back can screen and train these teachers to be responsible with a deadly weapon in the class room?



What guy in a minivan is handing out CC permits? why do you think firearms instructors are the people who determine eligibility for a carry permit? I think you should go do some actual research on CC permit laws from state to state and get back to us.

greenlion
September 20, 2009, 12:39 PM
Just saying "let teachers carry guns" is so infantile it is laughable. I am a school teacher in a school where there is a good deal of rule breaking and some violence. I am also a concealed carry permit holder and have trained in self defense shooting for many years. Just thinking about having to actually use a handgun in a school setting with all the priceless, irreplaceable students standing behind the next wall, or around the next corner, makes me sick to my stomach. The person carrying the gun would have to be more highly trained than any SWAT officer, than any Navy Seal to be able to operate in such an innocent-dense setting safely. The few days of "training" that the state would obviously have to set up to register these people to carry in schools, would be just enough to get innocent students shot in the process of trying to stop an attack.

NG VI
September 20, 2009, 12:53 PM
Sexual indiscretion is not the same as murder. Obviously both are wrong, but you can't be serious when you construct a straw man argument against CC by claiming that some guy in a minivan is going around giving people undeserved and unscreened permits. Firearms instructors are not the people who issue permits.
State and local law enforcement authorities, in my state the chief of police is usually the one who has the final say in the permit process, it is a shall issue state so anyone who completes the requirements and meets the eligibility standards will be issued a permit.
This is a much better system than the inherently corrupt may-issue system in place in states such as California, where the issuing authority can refuse to issue a permit for any reason they like or no reason at all. Frequently the Sherriff will issue permits only to rich, famous, influential, and people who donate to his re-election campaign. Since the system is may-issue, it is nearly impossible to do anything about it, so ordinary people who want to exercise their right to self-defense are denied that ability while people who do favors for the Sherriff are given permits without any trouble.

"you has a permit, you can bring a gun to school" is ludicrous.

Do you have any familiarity with CC permit process? It involves a lot more than just heading down to the corner and picking one up for fifty bucks from ole Grungy Dave.

Just thinking about having to actually use a handgun in a school setting with all the priceless, irreplaceable students standing behind the next wall, or around the next corner, makes me sick to my stomach. The person carrying the gun would have to be more highly trained than any SWAT officer, than any Navy Seal to be able to operate in such an innocent-dense setting safely. The few days of "training" that the state would obviously have to set up to register these people to carry in schools, would be just enough to get innocent students shot in the process of trying to stop an attack.

You don't think that the level of concern teachers in general have for their students would make them more careful and more safety-conscious? Teachers have stopped school shootings on more than one occasion, one of the noteworthy incidents the vice principal had to run all the way to his vehicle off school property to retrieve his pistol, he made it back just in time to stop the student who was shooting and hold him for police. The shooter had a plan, it was to shoot a few people at his school then head across town to the middle or elementary school since police would be at the high school helping his earlier victims and looking for him. If the vice principal had been able to discretely carry his pistol at work, there is the very real possibility that the shooting would have stopped sooner.

M2 Carbine
September 20, 2009, 01:12 PM
I'll tell a story on myself.

Maybe a year or so after getting my CHL I was getting very comfortable carrying it. (45 Kimber Tactical Ultra)

One afternoon a lady friend was taking me into town to get my car. On the way she was going to pick up her kids from a little church school.
When we got to the school she asked me if I'd like to see the kid's school.
I said, "Sure". Not thinking of my gun at all I followed her inside, where she introduced me to the teachers and I was joking around with the kids.

Not until about half way into town, when I shifted position in the seat and felt the 45 did it dawn on me that I had gone in the school wearing my gun, a big Texas CHL No, No.

That evening I told my friend, the lady's husband, that I had worn my gun into the school.

My friend is a shooting buddy and said,
"During the time you were in that school with your gun, that was the safest school in the state of Texas".

I thought a moment and said, "I have to agree".

mokin
September 20, 2009, 02:22 PM
I've got a little daughter who just started pre-school and I voted yes, allow concealed carry in schools. I also have friends who are teachers as were my parents. I trust thier judgement. I know that the teachers really care about thier students and would do nothing to bring them harm (except for the miscreants reported on above). This extends to thier judgement as far as shoot/don't shoot situations. I highly doubt that a teacher, even if armed, would draw the weapon until the children had been moved to safety. The thought of being in a shootout in a hallway crowded with children like my daughter terrifies me. But, I think that as long as current security proceedures are followed and the children have been safely herded into classrooms and a pistol would only be drawn as a last resort the safety of our schools would not be compromised.

freakshow10mm
September 20, 2009, 02:31 PM
Support carry in schools. My son is not old enough to be in school.

9MMare
September 20, 2009, 02:44 PM
Seems like you don't have a whole lot of faith in your state's ability to weed out the bad apples during the permit application process, or in the school's ability to hire people we would want around our children.




Er, no to both.

If we uphold the 2nd amendment, plenty of bad apples can get guns as long as they havent been caught yet. And my state also requires zero gun training.

And again, it's silly to believe 100% in any organization to make perfect hiring decisions, esp anything with a beauracracy.

9MMare
September 20, 2009, 02:49 PM
I voted yes, no kids in school.

Minors still shouldnt be allowed, but most CC laws prevent that anyway I think.

And any purse or briefcase carry MUST be locked up unless being actively carried.


This has nothing to do with 'requiring' teachers to carry. But those that feel the need or desire should be able to.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
September 20, 2009, 04:54 PM
For the folks like me who don't have children in public schools but are funding the public school system through property tax money; I see this as a slap in the face. Its a PUBLIC school because its funded by the PUBLIC that means its mine, PUBLIC property is for everyone's lawful use, PUBLIC servants are required to do their duties and serve the public (never mind they don't), and PUBLIC places are open to the public. So everyone is allowed in public schools...except people who are legally permitted to carried a concealed weapon. Then the school system wonders why I, and like minded folk vote down every referendum I can. :cuss:

Erik M
September 20, 2009, 05:48 PM
If you have a state issued license to CC I dont see what the issue is.

woodsoup
September 20, 2009, 06:04 PM
I don't have a kid in public school, but mine does work at a state run institution of higher(?) knowledge in Lousiana. So I chose "Yes and I do have kids in public school"

Quiet
September 20, 2009, 07:12 PM
In CA, if you have a valid CCW permit, you can legally carry on school grounds.

bigfatdave
September 20, 2009, 07:22 PM
6.5x55swedish, I am beginning to suspect that you have never filled out a 4473 or applied for a CC permit ... you obviously don't give your fellow citizens the same benefit of the doubt that we would give to you, if you had a legal CC permit.

Iam2taz
September 20, 2009, 07:31 PM
Wow. The only thing worse than letting criminals in the school is that there isn't anyone there, armed to stop them.
I voted, YES and I have two kids in public school.
How many lives would have been saved at Columbine?

Oh and by the way... my name is Joe....:D

9MMare
September 20, 2009, 07:32 PM
In CA, if you have a valid CCW permit, you can legally carry on school grounds.

Really? I know that some schools in CA have zero tolerance policies on guns. A friend's son was suspended and missed HS rodeo because he had a hunting rifle in his truck.

Can you carry even on those HS campuses?

Steve C
September 20, 2009, 07:54 PM
The blanket law applying to all schools and communities is simply a knee jerk reaction by politicians who wanted to appear to do "something" about some well publicized school shootings.

I taught school 30 years ago and we didn't need any such laws and such things where not even in the written rules. Common sense prevailed and there wasn't any school shooting either. There's been erosion of commonly held and unwriten societal standards since then with more control being asserted by the government and the legal process to the determent of all IMO. There's a lot of difference between communities and schools and such laws are too broad in their application to make sense for everyone.

I don't believe a concealed or loaded firearm has any place in a regular K-12 school or class room on a teacher or student. Some schools in large cities have armed police officers present during the day and that provides an armed response if needed. Firearms locked in a vehicle owned by a legal owner should not be prohibited.

In colleges and universities with students or staff that have a valid CCW or are LEO's then it should be allowed. While open carry in the classroom by non uniformed civilians may be legal, it is disruptive to the educational process and should be prohibited by the school rules, no law is necessary.

mljdeckard
September 20, 2009, 08:22 PM
(Two bad guys deciding where to go kill a bunch of innocent children, after doing other terrible things,) "Well, a public library on a weekend might be a good idea, a day-care center, perhap........WAIT!! I'VE GOT IT!! At elementary schools, people are actually BANNED from protecting themselves. We can smash the phone junction box, walk in the front door, walk past the adults while they shake their fingers at us, and we can do whatever we want while they call on their cell phones and the switchboard figures out what the heck is going on. How much mayhem and destruction can we cause in 3-7 minutes?"

On the days I am free to take my kids to or from school, back to school nights, parent-teacher conferences, etc, I am always armed. When Utah wrote our carry laws, no one stood up and said; "You know what I think would be a good idea? Let's take the place where our kids are concentrated together on a regular basis, and take away out ability to protect it."

The other day, I was sitting on a concrete bench waiting for the bell to ring, and a sheriff deputy came out the front door with the principal, (I had seen her vehicle parked out front,) they were having a conversation something to the effect of; "Yeah, he apologized to the teacher and we are putting him back in class for now. At this time, no one wants to press charges, and if we have any more problems we will call you back." She said she was going to go watch the crosswalk at the corner. Bad things happen in schools every day.

I could open carry there, but I never have.

Quiet
September 20, 2009, 10:43 PM
Really? I know that some schools in CA have zero tolerance policies on guns. A friend's son was suspended and missed HS rodeo because he had a hunting rifle in his truck.

Can you carry even on those HS campuses?
In CA,
valid CCW permit = exempt from gun free school zone laws [PC 626.9(l)].

School policy does not equal the law.

Your friend's son may have been suspended per school policy but he did not break the law [PC 626.9(c)(2)], unless the rifle was not being transported/stored properly.


CA Penal Code 626.9
(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

Dr_2_B
September 20, 2009, 11:05 PM
This is not simple at all because outlaw kids could learn and try to disarm teachers. However, I voted yes because I think that is the right way to go.

Avenger29
September 20, 2009, 11:12 PM
This is not simple at all because outlaw kids could learn and try to disarm teachers. However, I voted yes because I think that is the right way to go.

A) Retention training. You can shoot people with a gun, and you can also pistol-whip people.
B) Concealed means concealed
C) Actually punish the little brats and then maybe they'll behave and we wouldn't have students regularly assaulting teachers with near impunity like they do now.

I wouldn't teach in public school for anything- I'd rather be a prison guard.

sig87
September 21, 2009, 12:11 AM
I am a college student. I think if you have a CWP permit you should be able to carry in school.

ILikeLead
September 21, 2009, 01:21 AM
How many innocent children have been killed in US by bullets at school? How many of those bullets were fired by CCW holders? How many might be killed by a CCW acting to stop a mass murderer? How many innocent lives might be saved by stopping said murderer before he plans on ceasing his killing spree?

I bet Joel Myrick wished he was carrying his on his person in Pearl MS school (in '97 i believe).


BTW I have 2 school aged kids. Criminals know where the current "gun-free zones" are.

MICHAEL T
September 21, 2009, 01:45 AM
If that was at the Lexington Ky show I signed it as well as my daughter I have a permit Criminals don't bother even trying So these silly can't carry laws don't bother them

6.5x55swedish
September 21, 2009, 07:27 AM
Nope, I have not ever applied for a concealed carry permit. I have no reason to, I can open carry if I chose and where I am from you do not need a permit to carry concealed. I carried concealed for about two weeks after I turned 21, one of those do it because you can like buying alcohol. Then I lost interest and the handgun ended up back in the gun case.

I have no problem with concealed carry, however not on school property. Keep in mind that this petition I speak of was not to make concealed carry legal on school grounds, but to retract the law that states that guns are not allowed on school grounds. So when an 18 year old student walks to school with a rifle and does not kill somebody with it that will also be legal.

John Parker
September 21, 2009, 07:31 AM
Just thinking about having to actually use a handgun in a school setting with all the priceless, irreplaceable students standing behind the next wall, or around the next corner, makes me sick to my stomach.

It's better then to just allow a killer to go on unoppossed? Would you shoot knowing that if you didn't take the chance to stop him, he'd go on to kill 30 more kids? I understand not wanting to hit an innocent bystander, that would be terrible, but I truly believe that doing nothing and seeing more kids die would be far worse.

Hokkmike
September 21, 2009, 01:24 PM
I am a teacher of many, many, many, many years experience in our public schools.

We live (at our school) in a "gun friendly" environemnt. Our school even has a shooting team. Guns are kept at the nearby sportsman club, however.

Students are not old enought to carry in school. Any that might be old enough probably ought not to carry if they are still in school at that age.

Many of the teachers here I know have LTCF in Pennsylvania. Others are not interested or even liberally anti-gun. All are intelligent enought to handle firearms responsibly, but many don't want to.

Overall, I don't think school carry is a good idea just because of the forced proximity and contact with so many young, immature children. The environmant is ripe for accidental contact, theft, misues, etc.

At best, I think those teachers very comnfortable with firearms and so inclined could pull it off.

(Yes, I am equivocating a bit.....Not everything is easy.)

BTW - to the OP, my preferred caliber of choice and last 5 rifles have been chambered in 6.5 X 55.

sneedb82
September 21, 2009, 01:35 PM
The 2nd Amendment applies to public schools because public schools weren't a question when the Constitution was written... 2nd Amendment applies anywhere the person goes, I think. Even if that includes political rallies or anyplace in the public... now, prisons of course are a different matter, because there are guards there supposed to do that job of security.... secured, locked-down prisons are no place for CCW ---- everywhere else, I'm for carrying concealed...

9MMare
September 21, 2009, 02:54 PM
ISchool policy does not equal the law.

.

Ah, of course. Thanks.

eatont9999
September 21, 2009, 03:04 PM
I would vote yes, but I don't have kids. Criminals and thugs don't care if it is a "gun free zone." I think if we had some students and teachers firing back at the lunatics who shoot up schools, maybe some lives will be saved. I would like to be able to legally carry a gun when I get out of a night class at 9PM or 10PM and have to walk across campus and a parking lot to get to my car. Campus Police, you say? I hardly feel safe trusting my life to a guy with a flashlight who lives in his mom's basement (no offense). I still don't trust my life to armed police guards. If they are taken down, then who is left?

Vern Humphrey
September 21, 2009, 03:24 PM
Two words: Kenneth Baumruk

From "The Missouri Lawyers Media:
"The Missouri Supreme Court has set an Aug. 7 execution date for Kenneth Baumruk, for his 1992 shooting spree in St. Louis County Circuit Court where he shot and killed his wife and wounded four others. During his divorce hearing in Division 38, Baumruk pulled out two .38 caliber revolvers, shooting and killing his wife"
Ah, it was already illegal to carry a firearm in a courtroom in Missouri when this happened. And at that time it was illegal to carry a concealed firearm.

So how did those laws prevent this tragedy?

KBintheSLC
September 21, 2009, 04:00 PM
So I am interested in what some of us pro-gun Joe blows think

This particular polling sample might be a bit biased. ;)

So how did those laws prevent this tragedy?

You would be hard pressed to prove that any anti-gun laws prevent any tragedies. You can't just legislate away the evil deeds of mankind.

mustang_steve
September 21, 2009, 04:24 PM
bigfatdave hit the nail on the head. Violent students and students with gang affiliations, etc should not be allowed in a public school under any circumstance. Let them get home-schooled, or make a special high-risk schooling just for these people.

I graduated from the "best" school in a violent city, and even there we had an incident where a kid in the bathroom had an Akransas Toothpick held up to his throat. How did it get past the metal detectors? It was smuggled in through a classroom window. Same for the SNS that were in the hands of the drug dealers and the like.

The point of it.....violent people WILL get weapons into a place regardless of laws, rules or preventative measures.

sonier
September 21, 2009, 04:44 PM
Yes i dont have a kid technically, but i have a sister and lots of family members in school. but make the teachers go threw extensive backgroundchecks, no pesonality issues, and specialized training. giving a avg teacher a gun scares me.

Vern Humphrey
September 21, 2009, 05:14 PM
giving a avg teacher a gun scares me.
Why should you be more scared of giving the averate teacher a gun any more than you would be scared of giving the average citizen the right to carry?

bigfatdave
September 21, 2009, 06:43 PM
So when an 18 year old student walks to school with a rifle and does not kill somebody with it that will also be legal. And who is the victim in that crime, as the law currently stands?
Show me a victim, show me someone injured/dead or damage done to property by the simple presence of a firearm, and I might consider keeping such a silly, pointless, insulting law on the books restricting the rights of free citizens.


even there we had an incident where a kid in the bathroom had an Arkansas Toothpick held up to his throat. How did it get past the metal detectors?Oh, that couldn't happen now, the schools have felon and weapon repulsion fields, which won't let in anyone or anything dangerous. Just like all the other gun-free zones that won't let you through the door if you are CC'ing - the force-field activates and stops you from going through the door.
The only reason that shootings happen in gun-free zones is that sometimes the force-field is down for maintenance, and a criminal happens to get in ... they're always trying to get in, of course.

JEB
November 30, 2009, 02:02 AM
Bad things happen to good people in nice places. I voted yes.


+100

if there is one thing that really gets to me it is forcing honest people to be defenceless against those who would do them harm

flynlr
November 30, 2009, 02:14 AM
Doesn't seem to be a problem in Utah,, all Public schools and some private are concealed carry Zones, k-college

Bohemus
November 30, 2009, 04:02 AM
I would vote "I am kid and i carry in public school"
As i am university student and I legaly carry to my school.

mcschrader
November 30, 2009, 06:04 AM
I voted yes because as a lot of people said, I think it would make the schools safer. I know that there are a lot of innocent kids there, but who cares if they see their teacher shooting at someone shooting at them. I know when I was in school if someone walked in shooting, it would have been kick a. to see one of my teachers say "Aw heck no" and start shooting at him (or her).

skoro
November 30, 2009, 09:44 AM
My kids are no longer in the public schools. They've graduated and moved on. Most schools have a security arrangement of some type already in place. Here locally, the high schools and middle schools each have an armed police officer on campus. I could see expanding that to include a couple of armed security guys in addition to the cop.

But allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry on campus?

Nope. I think that's an invitation to disaster. :uhoh:

eatont9999
November 30, 2009, 10:05 AM
I don't like putting my life in the hands of some security guard or police officer. Some of them don't even practice with their weapons. I think the second amendment allows the carrying of a firearm anywhere. There is no mention of places you cannot carry.
Entire classrooms of kids get shot up because there was no one around to stop it. What are the chances of a security guard being in the right place at the right time. Who is to say he is not the first one killed?

Quoheleth
November 30, 2009, 10:59 AM
I've read most of the replies in this thread. As a CCW holder with kids in public school, and a wife who is a public school teacher, I said "Yes." However, I'll add my "requirements."

If a teacher wants to carry, IMHO, he/she needs additional training than the mickey-mouse CCW class I had. I can truly say I learned almost nothing from my instructor. He was too interested in showing off his collection and being a good ol' boy. Case in point: I was shocked - shocked! - to find out a couple weeks ago it is illegal to have a weapon even in the car in a post office parking lot. He didn't tell us that. I learned it by reading the state manual, the texaschlforum forums, and here.

What I'm getting at is his imprimatur on the paperwork for the state was nothing but a means to an end. "Teacher," he was not. And it certainly did not TRAIN me to be a CCW holder. Qualify, yes; train, no. It is now my responsibility to train and be trained.

That is where I see the problem for teachers and other licensed adults carrying in school. For teachers, I would like to see an advanced training program like pilots receive. Specific things that need to be covered are keeping the weapon concealed; weapon retention (you would be amazed at the number of men and women who keep valuables in a briefcase or purse in their room, thinking it is safe. That lazy mentality will get a firearm stolen); non-deadly force; reaction to force, and finally, use of deadly force.

Teachers aren't cops, even though the system tries to make them into junior cops and lawyers. But if we are going to give teachers the option of being able to carry to help protect my kids, I want them as highly trained as possible - even if that means a secondary training session for them.

To make this personal, I am a pastor. I carry in my church. I am not yet at a spot where I can take advanced training from places like Front Sight (it's the only one that's coming to mind right now...the cold medicine has me a big foggy). So, I train myself by reading, listening to programs like Armed American Radio, and setting up scenarios at my range. It's what I can do, and I do it so that if the balloon goes up, I have a chance to react and hopefully save not only myself but members of my church, too. If my leaders said, "Pastor, we like what you are trying to do, but we think you need additional professional training," I would do my best to get it. That's my parallel with teachers. Where the parallel breaks down is that I am surrounded by people a couple hours a week. Teachers are surrpunded by kids all day, 5 days a week. While any CCW holder will benefit from training, they especially need higher levels if possible.

Q

Q

John Parker
November 30, 2009, 11:09 AM
But allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry on campus?

Nope. I think that's an invitation to disaster

Could you elaborate?

zombienerd
November 30, 2009, 11:29 AM
My kid is in a private school... They don't have any signs prohibiting, and I've never asked if there's a regulation against it.

I wholeheartedly believe any legal CCW/CCL holder should be able to carry everywhere, even in Federal buildings, but that's another fight for another time.

Vern Humphrey
November 30, 2009, 12:34 PM
My kids are no longer in the public schools. They've graduated and moved on. Most schools have a security arrangement of some type already in place. Here locally, the high schools and middle schools each have an armed police officer on campus. I could see expanding that to include a couple of armed security guys in addition to the cop.


Let me pont out that there was an armed policeman in the school at Columbine -- he ran for help, abandoning the students.

But allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry on campus?

Nope. I think that's an invitation to disaster
Concealed carry is allowed off campus, and guess what? No disasters!

Why would the character of concealed carry permit holders change when they cross the campus boundry?

wahsben
November 30, 2009, 01:32 PM
Before all these gun free zones and gun control kids did bring their guns to school in many places and there were not a bunch of school shootings. Adults had them too and guns were really readily available and there were much less problems not more. The problem is society not the availability of guns.
In Isreal they are armed in schools and there is no problem.
Gun control creates an imbalance of power that favors tyrants and criminals. It does nothing to prevent massacres and in fact it increases the chance that massacres and genocide etc. will occur.

Douva
November 30, 2009, 02:16 PM
Related Information:

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Handbook (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16488074/Students-for-Concealed-Carry-on-Campus-SCCC-Handbook)

texas bulldog
November 30, 2009, 03:49 PM
i voted YES and that i have no kids in school. however, i do have a 1-yo daughter and a son expected any day (as well as older nieces and nephews), and i have several uncles that are teachers. so the issue isn't one that's totally removed from personal attachment for me.

Sixguncowboy
November 30, 2009, 11:18 PM
I voted yes. I have no kids in school. My kids are grown and my grandchildren are in college. My son, like his dad before him is a cop. He started out as a city police officer working patrol. He became a DARE officer and loved working with the kids. When the city wouldn't allow him to remain a DARE officer past the two year tour of duty he quit and went to work for the school district police department in another city because they hired him as a permanent DARE officer. He would be the first to tell you that a gun free school zone is an invitation to disaster. They simply do not have enough officers to keep one at every school campus. Response time to calls for assistance average 5 - 10 minutes. A lot can happen in 5-10 minutes. Each campus does have an unarmed security guard. But when confronting an crazed gunman they are utterly useless. All they can do is call for help & wait till help arrives. My kids & grandkids all learned to shoot & safe firearms handling at the age of four.

In Texas teachers, janitorial, cafeteria & all support staff, anyone who is employed by the school district must be fingerprinted and undergo an extensive federal & state background check before being hired. To obtain a Concealed Handgun License one must be 21 years of age and undergo an extensive background check which includes sending their fingerprints to the FBI. They must also go through classroom training on the use of deadly force laws, firearms storage & safety, retention. Then they must prove their proficiency on the shooting range during an 8 hour course of fire.
Had 1 or 2 licensed students or a professor been armed at Va Tech an untold number of lives could have been saved. Same for Columnbine. Teachefew years bacrs, staff and students who have been licensed to carry by the state should be allowed to carry on campus.

Have you ever heard of a school shooting in Utah? No? I didn't think so. Utah allows licensees to carry on college campuses. I don't know about high school and elementary campuses. A few years back a teen brought a rifle into a school building in Mississippi intending to kill some kids. A principal saw him, ran to his car and retrieved his 1911 and disarmed the kid and held him for police without ever firing a shot. How many lives were saved that day?

When I was a teen the parking lot at school was full of pickups and cars belonging to students and teachers alike with shotguns and rifles in them during hunting season. The principal even had to show me his new Winchester bolt action deer rifle one morning. We also had a rifle team with a range out behind the football stadium where we practiced and shot against other schools. Not one student, teacher, staff member or visitor was ever shot, not even by accident. I and hundreds of other students over the years learned to shoot, firearms safety and personal responsibility & integrity on that range & in the classrooms, something that is far too lacking in today's society.

Legionnaire
December 1, 2009, 05:14 PM
After reading through the thread (good discussion of all sides, I thought), I voted "yes," and I do have a child in public school. I'll not argue that guns "should" be carried on campus as part of any policy; simply that those who CCW should not be banned from school property.

Vern Humphrey
December 1, 2009, 05:56 PM
I'll bring up one point. Children are required by law to go to school, and the school stands in loco parentis -- that is, the school assumes some of the obligations and powers of the parents while the children are in school.

The school has an obligation to protect the children, with the same determination and means the parents would use. Someone in the school should be armed for protection of the children.

Magic_Man
December 1, 2009, 06:27 PM
Criminals don't obey the laws. I see no reason NOT to lift it & other bans. The man LEGALLY carrying is not the 1 we have to worry about.

Gryffydd
December 1, 2009, 07:04 PM
It's amazing how many people in this thread sound like card-carrying Brady Bunch members. If the fact that murder and violent crime are illegal doesn't stop someone, a gun-free zone sure won't either.

As to the teachers committing sexual misconduct that 6.5x55 posted--sexual misconduct is illegal. That didn't stop them. Why would not being allowed to carry a gun stop them if they decide to shoot somebody?

This It's OK for me to carry, but I sure wouldn't trust THAT guy attitude is utter crap. People here are using the EXACT same arguments against guns in school that the anti-gun people use for all concealed carry.

Name ONE bad thing that has happened anywhere concealed carry is allowed in schools as a result of that lawful carrying.

ozarkgunner
December 1, 2009, 11:18 PM
I would vote yes. I have 3 kids in school. I would feel better if I knew that there were some armed personell, teachers, janitorial, etc, on the campus. My kids school is fairly isolated on the edge of our city. It is past the end of a neighborhood, surrounded by fields. It would take a bit for emergency response to get there. I think an armed aggressor would be less likely to do so if they knew there was the possibility of counter fire. Missouri allows carry of a weapon on to any school campus, as long it stays in the vehicle and is not brandished. They are also allowed for carry and use during school sanctioned shooting events. And I believe that a CCW carrier can be allowed to carry into the school if that person has special permision from governing school afficials. I don't know if that means that I could get permission from the principal and carry or the school board.
I will look at the regs and re-post.

herohog
December 1, 2009, 11:37 PM
Yes and the ONLY reason I have no kids in school is because my wife can't have any. Had we had any, we would still send them to public schools and we would still support CC for those who are legal to do so.

AKElroy
December 1, 2009, 11:40 PM
I believe that teachers and janitors and workers for the school should be allowed to carry at work.

When my grandfather was 11, he carried his crack-shot .22 (I still have it) to school everyday, leaning it in the corner of the schoolroom so he could shoot a varmint for the pot on the way home. He never thought someone might shoot someone with it.

When I was in school (this was the 80's; I am not that ancient), every other truck in the parking lot had a 12 gauge in the rack during dove season. I carried a Buck 110 on my belt from 6-12th grade. Never stabbed anyone. Today, I would be arrested. I made nun-chucks in shop class, and got a grade on them. Heck--when I was a senior, I made a cross-bow in shop, although the teacher did ask that I not affix the bow until I got home to keep from raising the attention of the front office.

Today, teachers in Israel stand guard over their students during recess with a loaded Uzi. Do I want to live in that world?? Not necessarily. Many do, though. As stated, criminals are not going to care about the law, someone needs to protect the innocent.

hammerclaw56
December 3, 2009, 08:34 AM
I voted YES!!!!!!!! Its time to stand up to outlaws and put them where they belong if you know what I mean.

ozarkgunner
December 3, 2009, 03:21 PM
I'm am also trying to teach my son and daughters situational awareness, as brought up in another post. I am very tempted to purchase one of the back packs that I have seen advertised that have armor plates in them. I delieve they are supposed to be level 3 of some sort. I would like to see some reviews on them. Anyone have any info one them?
Would any of you with kids get one for them if they are work?
Alot of this issue comes from paranoia, but also from rescent events. But school shootings are nothing new, they are just more frequent, and more severe. I'm from East LA, and school shootings in and around them are nothing new. But I also lived for many years in south western Arizona. And there were always guns and or rifles in quite a few of the vehicles in my schools parking lot. And it was never an issue. I knew people on both ends of the spectrum, and it wasn't the guns you knew about that anybody was worried about, it was the ones that you didn't.
I would be for the extra school funding to have armed guards so to speek. Preferably plain clothes, undercover type. Ex-cops or military, not the "apply here" airport security. I might even go as far as putting together a training program for rotating volunteers from the school system. A regularly seen parent on the school grounds would not be obvious security. I am often at my kids school for PTA reasons. I'm sure it would be quite a feat to get something like that passed voters and the school board. Lack of experience, emotional, etc, etc.
Yes it could be a bad idea, but feel free to add.

Dambugg
December 3, 2009, 04:02 PM
I voted yes and my kids will e in school in a couple of years. A couple years ago a local teacher wanted to carry at school because she had a bitter divorce and was threatened by her ex whom she had a restraining order against. Because she worked at a school and the school has a no firearms policy she was unable to carry if she wanted to keep her job. After a long court battle a recent appeal ruled that she could not carry because the school had the right to make it's own policies. This woman was made to look like a wacko in the local news and many gun owners felt sorry for her situation. I vote yes.

ny32182
December 3, 2009, 04:10 PM
There is nothing different about a school vs. any other place. For some reason, some people who support carry generally don't support it at school. Who knows why.

Having kids somewhere means you should ban carry? Well guess what. Those kids don't sleep there on the nights and weekends. They go to the mall, the grocery store, and run around in the street playing. Should we ban carry in all those places too? You either support carry in public spaces or you don't; there is nothing special about a school from a practical viewpoint.

Atroxus
December 3, 2009, 04:15 PM
VI:
ask yourself this. Do you want these teachers of your daughter to be legally armed?

http://www.mercurynews.com/sunnyvale/ci_13273650?nclick_check=1

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0809/650019.html

http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/bergen/329-married-phys-ed-teacher-charged-with-having-sex-with-minor

http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4652931

http://www.qctimes.com/news/local/article_c5fba43a-8775-11de-8bca-001cc4c03286.html
Those people are scumbags, and will be scumbags with or without a weapon. I think it is stupid to penalize the majority for the failings of the few, it's no better than the antis trying to keep us from owning guns because criminals use them to commit crimes. Then again maybe those guys would think twice about abusing the children in their care if the parents picking them up from school were all armed? My wife is a school teacher and it drives me nuts that she is not allowed to carry any means of self-defense at work(not even pepper spray due to zero tolerance), despite the presence of gang members in school, and the fact that teachers there have been assaulted by students. Instead of trying to keep legally armed people off school property, maybe we should try to screen teachers better to weed out the sickos.

MM60
December 3, 2009, 05:10 PM
Here's something to think about: Kids in countries where adults carry firearms around openly and regularly tend to mature more quickly and be more responsible in general, whereas kids in the United States are sheltered from everything gun-related for the entire 12+ years they are in school, and they are often very immature, irresponsible, and just plain stupid all the way up through college and beyond.

There is absolutely no reason why any adult in the United States should be prohibited from carrying any firearm, concealed or openly, to any place whatsoever, unless they are currently locked up in prison. If somebody is dangerous enough that they can't own or carry a firearm, then they are dangerous enough to be locked up in prison.

Like others have stated here, it would be nice if there was a way to guarantee that all firearms owners have the ability to own, carry, and use firearms safely, but I can not think of any way that this could be done that would not infringe on individuals' privacy or 2nd Amendment rights. Background checks and CCW permits are infringements upon our right to keep and bear arms, and they are invasions of our privacy. I don't believe for one minute that the government doesn't have us all on record for when they decide to take everybody's guns away. The only gun-control law that would be even remotely Constitutional would be to require ID for proof of age only (it should be unlawful to record any personal data) before selling a firearm to an individual, and that age would be 18 (and I am in my late 20's).

I am currently going to college to become a public school teacher, and I certainly have the right to carry a weapon on any school grounds, in any courtroom or government building, in state and national parks, etc - as does every other free U.S. citizen. Whether or not this unlawful government permits us to do so, or punishes us for doing it, is a different matter.


Also, what is up with NG VI's quotes?...
Quote:
Gun registration preempts any requirement to obtain search warrant.
Quote:
The 2nd amendment is a right only if you use a gun to defend your state. nothing in there about self defence whatsoever. That's why all gun control laws are legal.

These both seem like something we would hear from an ATF agent or anti-gunner. NG VI, can you explain to us why you use these quotes as your signature line?

FIVETWOSEVEN
December 3, 2009, 10:58 PM
And making the school a "gun (and knife) free zone" made how much difference?

Perhaps we should declare schools as "murder free zones" instead and deal with the crime instead of restricting the tools non-criminals can carry?
why stop at schools? lets make the whole state, no the whole country, no the whole world a crime and murder zone!

DeepSouth
December 3, 2009, 11:29 PM
My first thought after reading you post and voting was ....WOW this poll isn't goning the way he wanted/expected.

286 YES
31 NO


THEN I read this postask yourself this. Do you want these teachers of your daughter to be legally armed?

http://www.mercurynews.com/sunnyvale...nclick_check=1

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0809/650019.html

http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/bergen...sex-with-minor

http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4652931

http://www.qctimes.com/news/local/ar...cc4c03286.html
at which point I almost became angry, what link would 5 sick pedophiles have to honest law abiding teachers.:banghead: You are not getting it, those teachers were NOT LAW ABIDING citizens. If you had provided 5 links to teachers that got in knife fights at schools you might have had an arguement, but I guess you couldn't find any. Which is kind of strange because teachers can (AFAIK) carry a knife and some how they don't get in knife fights everyday.:banghead: I'm gonna stop now....I'm getting mad again..


EDIT:

So when an 18 year old student walks to school with a rifle and does not kill somebody with it that will also be legal.

I still fail to see a problem. I carried a rifle to school for +/- three months every year during hunting season, and guess what I never shot at anything other than paper targets or deer. I guess, with your laws I should be a felon, thanks but no thanks.

Vern Humphrey
December 4, 2009, 10:11 AM
why stop at schools? lets make the whole state, no the whole country, no the whole world a crime and murder free zone!
And we could put us signs, "No murder, rape, mugging, or other crimes allowed."

Now I know there are people who commit murders, rapes, muggings, and other crimes. But I can't believe theywould disobey signs!:rolleyes:

Dwrice
December 9, 2009, 07:06 AM
People packing legally aren't a danger ... the real question is, "should criminals be allowed in schools" ... who cares what a law-abiding citizen might have tucked somewhere, when someone with no regard for the law will walk in with whatever they want.

"gun free zones" don't protect anyone but the lawless.
Strange you mention this; my son's middle school has a CONVICTED ARMED ROBBER working as a teacher.

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 10:02 AM
...used to respond to parents' requests and demands...they think they're the oracle of God now...and talk of "our children"...I've had to straighten that out a few times...they are MY children...if all the parents in your school district would stand up to the school district...they'd get rid of that armed robber...they're just afraid of the cost of a civil suit more than of the irate parents...that's a shame...parents have given up their rights and ignored their responsibilities in this case...

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 10:12 AM
...has stated he believes that a person licensed to carry firearms should be able to carry them almost anywhere...and I agree...courtrooms and Federal property(states can't control that) are the only places that should be off limits...if we're capable of controlling ourselves and our weapons at the mall, we don't turn into imbeciles when we walk through the door at school...and the news reports prove that our children are not well protected at school...one or two officers aren't enough...
...one school district in Texas has allowed concealed carry permit holders among the staff/teachers to go armed...how they got around the state law making it a felony to do so, I don't know...but I applaud them...
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5976922.html

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/teachers_to_be_armed_148.html
...excepting the domestic disputes and crazies...several terrorists have told the gov't that they are planning and intending to target our schools and do here what was done in Russia a few years ago...and make sure the parents outside could hear the screams of their girls and the shots...to cause us the most anguish...I would vote to get every school police officers, teachers, coaches...anyone who would pass the strict background check and get a permit...armed and trained.....and any permit holder should be able to carry at colleges...times have changed and so should the laws...our children are more precious than anything we have...

Ankeny
December 9, 2009, 08:48 PM
Strange you mention this; my son's middle school has a CONVICTED ARMED ROBBER working as a teacher. Are you sure about that? I just looked up the teacher certification requirements on the MA Department of Education website and a convicted felon can't hold a certificate. Same is true in most states.

Avenger29
December 9, 2009, 11:50 PM
..excepting the domestic disputes and crazies...several terrorists have told the gov't that they are planning and intending to target our schools and do here what was done in Russia a few years ago..

I agree. Sooner or later, we're going to have a Beslan of our own. VA Tech and Columbine are going to look like a day at the playground when that happens.

Oh, and the school resource officers? Well, around here, they only have 1-2 per school, and they generally aren't seen at all during the school day.

trigun87
December 10, 2009, 01:40 AM
I support cc in schools, Im a student in college. Last year there were two rapes in the college I attend. Some classes get out at almost 11pm so obviously the danger is there.

lloveless
December 10, 2009, 04:48 PM
I support the 2 Amend everwhere. I sent my children to private schools and I carried there(concealed). I have never shot anyone. My grandfather grew up in kansas-walked to school-somedays took the .22 somedays the shotgun. All the kids brought guns to school propped them in the back of the room and potted something to eat on the way home. That was the way of life. To my knowledge he never shot anyone. My father was in WW 2. He never mentioned shooting anyone, but he beat my brother and my butts for pointing our fingers at each other and saying bang bang your dead!
ll

Autolycus
December 11, 2009, 02:59 AM
WHere in the BIll of RIghts does it say that I cannot give my 7 year old a .22 revolver and let him take it to public school?

THanks.

TexasBill
December 11, 2009, 11:55 AM
... The only exception to this, is that I don't think a person should be allowed to carry a weapon in a courtroom while proceedings are going on. ...

Why not? The judge has one (I don't know about other states but Texas has allowed judges to carry for years).

I have a son in public school for another five years. I have a daughter in college. I have a grandson in public school and two more grandsons and a granddaughter who will be in public schools. So I think I have a well-vested interest in the topic.

The school district in which my kids are registered does not have a sworn police force. Despite the fact it is one of the largest districts in the state, all it has is a staff of security guards armed only with pepper spray. They don't even have powers of arrest. A local constable's office provides what actual police functions the district has but officers are not always present in schools and response times can be slow.

We always hope there will never be another Columbine, but an armed parent or staff member could bring such an incident to an end before it becomes a massacre. Unarmed but uniformed security officers are just targets in such a situation; they may look great for the school's liability insurance, but they're as useless as boobs on a bull if an armed nut opens up in the school.

This really bothers me as other school districts have actual commissioned police officers and, if you don't want that, Texas does allow licensed security officers to openly carry firearms and authorizes them to detain suspects, by whatever means are necessary, until police can execute a formal arrest.

Even though I am a liberal, I believe we should not compromise our children's safety in the interests of whatever educational philosophy is currently in vogue.

Autolycus
December 13, 2009, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by TexasBIll:
Why not? The judge has one (I don't know about other states but Texas has allowed judges to carry for years).

I have a son in public school for another five years. I have a daughter in college. I have a grandson in public school and two more grandsons and a granddaughter who will be in public schools. So I think I have a well-vested interest in the topic.

The school district in which my kids are registered does not have a sworn police force. Despite the fact it is one of the largest districts in the state, all it has is a staff of security guards armed only with pepper spray. They don't even have powers of arrest. A local constable's office provides what actual police functions the district has but officers are not always present in schools and response times can be slow.

We always hope there will never be another Columbine, but an armed parent or staff member could bring such an incident to an end before it becomes a massacre. Unarmed but uniformed security officers are just targets in such a situation; they may look great for the school's liability insurance, but they're as useless as boobs on a bull if an armed nut opens up in the school.

This really bothers me as other school districts have actual commissioned police officers and, if you don't want that, Texas does allow licensed security officers to openly carry firearms and authorizes them to detain suspects, by whatever means are necessary, until police can execute a formal arrest.

Even though I am a liberal, I believe we should not compromise our children's safety in the interests of whatever educational philosophy is currently in vogue.

What about instead of an armed parent or teacher, but an armed student?

What does everyone think of 18 year old high school students being allowed to carry while in high school?

strambo
December 13, 2009, 09:03 AM
I find the notion that an armed, yet not highly trained, teacher engaging a threat in a crowded room is more dangerous than having the threat go completely unopposed...to be absurd.

So...the danger of a round from a good guy accidentally hitting an innocent bystander by mistake while taking out the threat is somehow worse than the scumbag deliberately shooting kids undaunted until he runs out of ammo?

If not...what is the reason not to let qualified staff who choose to do so, be armed?

Because they might deliberately miss-use said firearm? I doubt someone bent on murder would only do so if they could lawfully CCW first...and being denied that right, would instead live their lives as law abiding citizens were it not for that temptation of having a gun on them.

EDIT: A child molester doesn't need a gun for that crime so CCW would be immaterial. As for unqualified, I have 3 kids and when they become school age, I'd rather have the biggest goober of a teacher with a gun between them and a shooter...than nothing at all. It won't make the pain of loss any less, but losing a child to a stray bullet from a good guy who stops the threat would be better in my mind than them and others being straight up executed un-apposed.

DeepSouth
December 13, 2009, 12:07 PM
What does everyone think of 18 year old high school students being allowed to carry while in high school?

In most states you have to 21 to get a CCL. So many, many laws would have to be changed.



WHere in the BIll of RIghts does it say that I cannot give my 7 year old a .22 revolver and let him take it to public school?

THanks.

It doesn't, but it doesn't say you can either.

Eaglecreekbrewer
December 13, 2009, 03:09 PM
IMO it is an asinine concept to not allow it. The delusion that some people think that laws that restrict guns in any way reduces crime or murders has pretty much been debunked, don't you think?
I have three kids in school, and my greatest fear is that some nut is going to bring a gun into the school and there isn't a sole there to do anything about it. It seems that the more "gun free" zones we have, the worse the shootings get. This is another place where emotional fears have nullified logic and fact.
I went to school before the "gun free" absurdity existed, you remember those times, before we had mass murders at schools on a regular basis. Bad and tragic things do happen in a free society, but, worse things happen in a less free society.
The bottom line is this, it is a well proven fact that law enforcement can't protect you and that you are the one who is actually responsible for your safety, I do that for both myself and my family. The law says I will send my kids to school, at that point they had better be willing to step up and make protection (real protection, not the illusion of protection) a priority. Their laws have failed, emotional "logic" has failed, it's time to get back to reality.

Avenger29
December 13, 2009, 08:40 PM
What about instead of an armed parent or teacher, but an armed student?

What does everyone think of 18 year old high school students being allowed to carry while in high school?

I think it's an unrealistic goal, especially for now and with the behavior of people today.

Getting teachers and college students armed first is what needs to happen. Getting those under 21 will generally have to wait. Baby steps...

Plus, while I think getting teachers and college students 21 and over armed might be doable in today's society, getting younger people legal to carry would require a major change in people's views.

9MMare
December 13, 2009, 09:15 PM
If it's a 'concealed' weapon, no kids should even know about it. And IMO, it shouldnt be a 'requirement' for teachers, but if they were qualifed CC, why not? Those would be people with the desire and hopefully, the training.

As for visitors, really, the same should apply.

Eaglecreekbrewer
December 13, 2009, 09:39 PM
What about instead of an armed parent or teacher, but an armed student?

What does everyone think of 18 year old high school students being allowed to carry while in high school?

Sadly, today's youth are pampered and spoiled. They lack responsibility and feel entitled. Now, I know there are exceptions, and there are many kids that don't fit that broad brush. But, it fits the majority of the young population these days. As bad as it goes against my core beliefs, most 18 y/o's these days aren't mature enough, especially when amongst their own peer group in a school setting. Our society has generally produced a population of kids completely uneducated in firearms, their use and most of all in the respect they demand.

I realize there are the few who are more than capable, and more than responsible enough. Yet it would only be a matter of time before someone claimed "it's unfair!!" that some weren't allowed, when others were. It reeks of some of the serious culture problems we have in today's society. So, I don't think armed HS students is a great idea. College? You bet, by the time they are 21 they usually have a grasp.

ny32182
December 13, 2009, 09:51 PM
There are plenty of morons in every age group, from 18, to 21, to 35, to 55.

The question is whether CC should be generally allowed in schools, *by CC permit holders*... the same people who carry almost everywhere else.

Since 18 year olds can't hold CC permits, they aren't really pertinent to the question.

sqlbullet
December 14, 2009, 03:18 PM
My state allows it. I carry everytime I go to school. I have 6 children, 5 of whom are in school. I am there quite often. Will be there again tomorrow for a sharing activity in my son's first grade class.

Autolycus
December 14, 2009, 05:55 PM
Yes DeepSouth it doesn't say that I can't give my child a revolver, but where does it say I can not? Can you point it out for me? Where does it say that one must be 18 to exercise these rights?

As far as being 21, well in some states it is 18. I do believe Indiana is one state.

Originally posted byAvenger29:
I think it's an unrealistic goal, especially for now and with the behavior of people today.

Getting teachers and college students armed first is what needs to happen. Getting those under 21 will generally have to wait. Baby steps...

Plus, while I think getting teachers and college students 21 and over armed might be doable in today's society, getting younger people legal to carry would require a major change in people's views.
Why is it unrealistic to allow people to exercise their rights?

I don't want armed teachers in public schools, especially if my kid is not armed to protect themselves from the teacher should the teacher decide to start firing at the students. It should be all or nothing. Perhaps the NRA should take a stand and fight for the rights of our 9 year olds to bring a Glock to school to defend themselves?

Originally posted by Eaglecreekbrewer:
Sadly, today's youth are pampered and spoiled. They lack responsibility and feel entitled. Now, I know there are exceptions, and there are many kids that don't fit that broad brush. But, it fits the majority of the young population these days. As bad as it goes against my core beliefs, most 18 y/o's these days aren't mature enough, especially when amongst their own peer group in a school setting. Our society has generally produced a population of kids completely uneducated in firearms, their use and most of all in the respect they demand.

I realize there are the few who are more than capable, and more than responsible enough. Yet it would only be a matter of time before someone claimed "it's unfair!!" that some weren't allowed, when others were. It reeks of some of the serious culture problems we have in today's society. So, I don't think armed HS students is a great idea. College? You bet, by the time they are 21 they usually have a grasp. I am not sure what you are talking about the youth being pampered and spoiled. OR how they lack responsibility and feel entitled. Those things are the faults of the parents, the previous generation. And I do think it is silly of you to say that most 18 year olds are not mature enough while implying that previous generations were. Would that not be the fault of the parents? And you blame society for not raising kids who know gun safety and handling, once again isn't that the fault of the parents? Parents are the ones who prevent this stuff from being taught in the class along with things like sexual education. If the parents won't teach it or allow schools to teach it, then Hollywood and their friends will.

I think it is sad that you would say arming high schoolers is a bad idea. Where does it say in the Bill of Rights one must be a certain age to own a firearm? Please get back to me. By the time they are 21 they usually have a grasp, well then lets make it 30 so they do have a grasp? Actually to be safe lets say 75, so they do have a grasp. Would you agree?

Funny how an 18 year old can join the army and serve her country, but cannot buy herself a pistol because she is not mature enough. She can be charged with the crimes of an adult but not be treated as one.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
December 15, 2009, 08:29 PM
vote: YES

my 13year old niece is in publis school, and when i pick her up i have a little something in my pocket or on my hip.

DeepSouth
December 16, 2009, 01:53 AM
Yes DeepSouth it doesn't say that I can't give my child a revolver, but where does it say I can not? Can you point it out for me? Where does it say that one must be 18 to exercise these rights?

I guess you missed my point, I could have elaborated a little and cleared up a lot of confusion. You asked the question "Where in the Bill of RIghts does it say that I cannot give my 7 year old a .22 revolver and let him take it to public school?"

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be using an argument that consists of well "it don't can't say I can't fill in the blank." I mean nowhere in any of the founding documents does it say I can't be a drug dealer, so does that make it my right to sell crack to 10 year olds?

I know the two things are totally different BUT one could use the same argument for both situations. I am only saying that argument is IMO a poor one. We have better ones for this particular battle.

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