[hushnel]

My first hand gun was the New Army, I don’t remember who made it but I shot this gun and carried it for many years. I can’t remember when I replaced it after it was stolen in the late 70s. It’s been 40 years since that first revolver.

I find myself in the situation that I have the capacity to swag my own .451 round ball, I probably have 300 or 400 hundred rounds still from the last time I swaged up a pile, plus the tools to make more.

I couldn’t figure out why my .451 round balls were too loose in this replacement 58, I figured it was sloppy machining I never had a clue that this .44 had three diameter round ball diameters. I stopped shooting it after the first load and two balls fell out, thank God it didn’t flash over. I know I’m a dumb SOB.

None of the manufactures discuss the round ball that their .44s shoot and I’m not about to make the same mistake again. I see that the .451 is still available but no one mentions what revolver it’s for.

All I want is a high quality New Army 1858 that shoots the .451 but I have been unable to discover who is making this, if anybody still is.

I know this is an ass backwards way of shopping for a revolver but the guy who made up my swag kit has been out of business for at least 30 years and I simply want to shoot swaged round ball I can make.

Anyone know who makes a 58 that uses the .451?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Pietta, at least for me. I have 5 Pietta (Remington) 1858 New Model Armies. Two of them are the blued steel Target Model, two of them are the color case hardened with laser checkered grip panels, and one of them is the stainless. (regular, not target model) I also own 3 of the Remington (Uberti) .44 Cattleman's Carbines. (bought all 8 of them from Cabela's) All 8 of these pieces shot .451 swaged round lead balls very good right out of the the boxes and all 8 of them used the Remington #10 caps perfectly. So did the extra cylinders and extra nipples I bought from them. In fact that is what the owner's manuals recommended and that's all that's ever been shot out of them period. I like the Pietta's anyway because they have 'fatter' grips and are easier for me to handle. Perhaps this post will help you....PS. Don't believe a God**** word that old woman at Dixie Gun Works tell's you over the phone. I wouldn't buy a damn paperclip from those people and most of it is due to that dumb broad....

[BCRider]

Hhushnel, in case it's been TOO long and based on your story about balls rolling out I thought I'd add a bit a info to GotC's reply. It's normal to shoot .451 or .457 from the .44 revolvers. When loading the press force fits the ball and cuts off a thin ring of lead as it pushes the balls into the undersize cylinder. This ensures a tight and well sealed fit that totally avoids any possible roll out issue. It also explains all the mixing of ".44" and ".451" in GotC's reply that may have got you confused.

If you did manage to find an actual .451 bore revolver it would require balls of around .460 to .465 to ensure this same press fit and ring shaving. But no such C&B size revolver exists as far as I know.

Sorry if this is old hat for you but the wording of your post makes it seem like this fact was lost a while back along with the revolver..... :D

As for a '58 to play with I can heartily recomend the Uberti replica. As pointed out in a recent thread it has less warning and maker's writing stamped into the barrel and they come with a delightfully light trigger right out of the box. The blueing on my two is also first rate. I'm using my two for general giggles and shooting in CAS black powder matches.

[arcticap]

My Pietta 1858 shaves a thin ring when loading .451 balls in 2 different cylinders.
But I'm not so sure that the other makes do.

hushnel, if you're sure that your swagged balls measure .451 than try a Pietta from Cabela's. It can always be returned without any questions asked if the balls don't fit to your satisfaction.
At $40 each the Pietta 1958 replacement cylinders also cost less.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I have to agree with Articap. I shave lead and have NEVER had a problem with the .451's. That's the truth. Of course I cannot attempt to speak for someone else's experience in this situation....

[Hellgate]

The Uberti chambers are .448" diameter. I believe the Piettas I used to own were the same. I only use the .454 balls but a .448 chamber ought to take a .451 and hold it.

[hushnel]

Thank for the input.

Sorry if I was vague, I left out most of my history with blackpowder in an attempt to keep my post from becoming to long or wordy. While I didn’t state the bore or cylinder measurements I think I was fairly clear that the round ball is .451 and I aim to match up a corresponding revolver to that diameter.

My previous 58 cut perfect rings off of the RB, they seated beautifully and never loosened. I know the round ball is .451, my frustration stems from the manufactures web sites not listing this information and my experience with this one revolver along with the knowledge that the Rugers take the .457. As far as I know you can buy .451, .454 and .457 round ball, all for the .44.

I looked at my newer 58 last night and could find nothing indicating the manufacturer other than Italy.

I have two historical firearms from Uberti, the .45 Cattleman that chambers the .45 Colt, which I stuff with Blackpowder and the Winchester 66/Improved Henry in 44/40, I also load these cases with Blackpowder. I have a flintlock pistol in .45 that takes the .44 with a patch the same with a percussion pistol I built. My Thompson Center left hand Renegade, also a kit, is .54 that takes the .530 with a patch.

I’ll check with Uberti about the .451, Hellgate you say the cylinder needs to mic out at .448, that makes sence.

Sorry if is was understating my experience a bit, I was aware that the Piettas sold by Cabela’s came with a ready to shoot kit and they do list the round ball as .451 and though they need very little work to be a good version on the 1858 I am drawn more to the Uberti based on the craftsmanship exhibited in the two firearms I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Again thanks for responding to my inquiry.

[madcratebuilder]

I have a Pietta "target" model with three cylinders, all chambers measure .4455 to .4465. .451 rb shaves a good ring and rams easy.

My Pietta "shooters" model has chambers that measure .4515 and uses .457 rb.

[Hellgate]

Hushnel,
What i said was, when I miked my own Ubertis it came out to .448" per chamber. Now, I could also be a poor measurer and be off a thou or two.

[hushnel]

Sorry, I must have miss read, the .448 you measured shoots the .454. That is in line with what Midway states on it's web site (http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2007/11/midway-sale-uberti-1858-remington-steel.html)

So if that is common to all the Uberti 58s they won't work

[Hellgate]

They probably would work but if one chamber is a little bigger you could get "ball creep" (NOT a venereal disease). If one chamber is a little big you could designate that as the first chamber to be fired (or as the "open" chamber not loaded). I mark one chamber with a drop of fingernail polish (doesn't wash off with BP water based solvents) on the cylinder over the chamber as chamber#6 which is the one I leave unloaded with the hammer down on that one (usually the least accurate or if it is a second loose chamber).

[BCRider]

posted by hushnell;

....I looked at my newer 58 last night and could find nothing indicating the manufacturer other than Italy.....

That lack of maker other than "Italy" and a few proof marks is also what my Uberti's have so it's possible your '58 is a Uberti as well.

Sorry if I jumped to a conclusion of newbie'ness but your comment about the balls rolling out (shaking loose would be more like it I'm guessing?) in your first post. But now I see where the issue lays since if the chambers in the cylinder are measuring out at around .448'ish (I'll have to check mine) and if the ball is .451 that only leaves .003 to be sliced off and that means precious little contact area with the ball to the chamber wall. Not enough to hold it in place against a recoil from what you're saying.

So what you need is a brand that pretty much consistently has chambers more in the .444 .445 range so it can cut away a little more lead and provide a seating band on the ball that is more in keeping with a .448 chamber and .454 ball. Sounds like this may well be brand specific. We need someone with Pietta, ASM and Euroarms .44 guns to measure them up.

My recent .36 cal '51 Navy came from the previous owner with a part box of balls. But they were .35 diameter and he sent along a couple of packages of pre-lubed pillow ticking patches to use with them. I'm not sure how well a patched ball would fit in the cylinder and I sure don't want to try it. But it may well explain his distaste for black powder revolvers.

[madcratebuilder]

they were .35 diameter and he sent along a couple of packages of pre-lubed pillow ticking patches to use with them. I'm not sure how well a patched ball would fit in the cylinder and I sure don't want to try it. But it may well explain his distaste for black powder revolvers.:what::what:

That would do it.

[BlackNet]

I just measured a chamber in my 1860 uberti. it's .4470 so anything larger than that should work in there. I use .454 but there is a small sliver of lead that comes off during loading and have been considering a smaller round ball, a .451 should fit just right in there.

[mykeal]

a .451 should fit just right in there.
That's the last thing you want. Without that sliver of lead how will you know the ball doesn't have a surface imperfection that will allow hot gas to enter the chamber? There's a good reason for using an oversize ball and getting that lead ring shaved off. It's your best insurance (along with proper fitting caps) against a chain fire.

[hushnel]

Take my word for it the .451 will not be tight enough.

[arcticap]

It's not only possible to load a revolver with patched round balls but some match shooters do load using that method for national competition. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=410840&highlight=patched+ball

Post #9:


Has Been Tried

This method has been used at thr Nationals with Great success. It really does
work well. It is a lot of extra work, You really don't gain anything over just
the plain RB. It's a real booger in the 10 min. 10 shos timed fire match.

[ClemBert]

Read this thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347315) where I asked a similar question to your's. After having posted in that thread I called Cabela's up and asked them what the recommended ball size was for their Pietta 1858 and they told me it uses a .451 ball. Cabela's printed material that comes with the Pietta 1858 they ship recommends .451.

BTW, the Uberti 1858 uses a .454 ball.

[BCRider]

Take my word for it the .451 will not be tight enough.

That's my thought too. If you look at the flat "waist" left by a perfect ball size .... hold on a sec. Let me fire up the CAD.....

OK, a .447 bore with the following balls produces the following width of contact waist with the bore following the cutting of the ring along with any swaging down to force fit it into the bore.

Ball dia_____Waist length
.451________.060
.454________.079
.457________.095

Obviously the retention friction is going to go up at least in accordance with the increase in contact area. Now the holding power needed to retain the balls in position would depend on the charges being shot but generally we're looking for a bit of a thump with a .44 and that amount could be enough to let the smaller contact area of the .451 jump forward in the cylinder. We'd be able to feel the pressure they have in the loading ram's arm. If the balls go in too lightly I suppose this should be a warning that we don't have the retention pressure and friction to avoid the balls shifting from the recoil.

[hushnel]

Interesting suff. I'm starting to get a handle on what's going on with these 58s, thanks.

Todays a new gun day, I'm in a pretty good mood. I just picked up my homebuilt T/C .54 Renegade fitted with new glass, she's getting old a needed new glasses. It is kind of a shame but I do want to make kill shots rather than wacking away at the poor white tail. The new one is very modern in my arsenal, a Blaser R93 in .270 win.

[BCRider]

From what I've gathered about the age of this group usually it's the shooter that needs the new glasses. You sure you ain't just "projecting" on us here? :D

I'm very much on the learning wagon as well and questions like these that make me think about things like the contact area of the ball's waist help me as much as my thoughts may be helping others.

[Ratdog68]

From what I've gathered about the age of this group usually it's the shooter that needs the new glasses. :D

I resemble that remark !!! :neener:

[BCRider]

Don't we all.... don't we all...... :D

[Ratdog68]

Got my first set of bifocals just last year... danged if I don't need a new Rx already !

[Snaggletooth]

My Pietta 58 model shoots a 451 round ball. It shaves a ring Thats what I want to see and thats what I shoot

[hushnel]

Looks like the Pietta will be my next 58. Once I recover from the cost of the Blaser.

[BHP FAN]

I do not like the lack of compression of the .451,and I no longer use anything less than .454.this gives you more bearing surface in any event.

[BCRider]

That's the thing, isn't it. If you can push the ball into place TOO easily it'll kick loose from it's seating against the powder.

Any chance you can lap, grind or otherwise abrade that swaging die out by .003?

[Oldfalguy]

bcrider is being an age... racist... yea thats the term being thrown around nowdays for everything- hateful just plain hateful.............now where are my specs???? darn can't see of shucks on my face whew that was close.

Now on the subject I just check 3 uberti Remington cylinders as I was a little worried that it might be a little hard to squeeze in a 457. on my ROA the .457 was real easy to ram home and load. The ram and lever is a little less robust on the Uberti so I thought to use a little bit smaller ball. All I could find was a Hornady .452. I hope these work and if not they do not shave I will go with the .457.
I have been trying to buy one of those cylinder loaders but have emailed him but not heard back from the fella that makes them- ugh

[Ratdog68]

I'ma gonna have to put a measure device to my two Remmies and see what they're gonna take. At present, I have .454 Hornady RB on hand... and the Walker seems to like it just fine. I was figurin' on usin' the same in the Remmies too.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/NickelGold/NickelGold005.jpg

[madcratebuilder]

I have been trying to buy one of those cylinder loaders but have emailed him but not heard back from the fella that makes them- ugh

If your talking about sixgun4fun, I think he had a computer crash and lost his hard drive. I believe he is back up so you may want to try again.

[hushnel]

Any chance you can lap, grind or otherwise abrade that swaging die out by .003?

Yeah, I can have that done, it might be the way to go and give me more options. I'll talk to my gunsmith/machinist and see what he thinks. I don’t think I’ll have to change the diameter of the cast rod the chunks are cut off of, I’ll just cut slightly longer chunks.

[BCRider]

ME?!?!?! AN AGE RACIST? ? ? ? That would mean I'm being discriminatory towards myself then at 56 and counting! Or does that make me one of the young'uns in this crowd :D

Being pretty new I don't have much to go on but the .457 Hornady balls and .457 Speer balls I've been using seemed to go into my Uberti '58's just fine. There's a bit of a bite on the loading lever at first but nothing that my metal working senses would in any way suggest that the barrel, frame and loading lever parts would suffer from even in the long term.

Now if the balls were cast from a mix of leads that result in some oddball alloy with a slightly harder makeup then going with a smaller size to keep the loading lever pressure the same would be the way to go it would seem. In that case I'd like to see .451 to .454. Again it would be a case of sizing the balls based on the alloy used and the pressure it takes to seat them. Sound about right? I know I'm still the new guy but this is what my black powder experience so far and years of metal working suggest to me.

Hmmm.... along that line if you're cold forging the lead into balls it's likely the lead will work harden at least a little bit if it's made from anything but dead soft alloy. Even then it may work harden a little. Also I'm curious about how you size the lumps you're swaging/forging. If you feed it too small a lump it'll be less than the correct size. But what allows for any excess to escape? I'd think that to form a really good ball you'd need to slightly over feed the swager and cut off some squeezeout flashing. Any chance of seeing some pictures of this rig you have? Shop nut that I am I'm curious as a cat about this setup.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, in closing here I will say that I must be one of the luckiest SOB's in the world. My Walker cylinders all carry the .457 just like the book said to use and my Remington Pietta '58 Armies all carry the .451's just like the book said to use. I'vd never bought or owned or shot a .454 ball in my life. AND, wonder of wonders!!! My Colt Uberti .31 will actually carry the .323 just like the book said to use, and I know ya'll are not going to believe this but my .45 inlines will actually load and fire .45 sabots. It say's .45 caliber right on the package! I don't have to worry about loading them up with 46 and 2/3rds or 47 and 1/2 or anything like that. I just open up a package that specifies .45 caliber and By God it will fit right in there nice and tight and perfect just like the book said....

[hushnel]

just like the book said You get books with your guns? that must be very nice for you. Before my 58 was stolen I knew that it took a .451 and when I bought the swag kit I knew it had to be cherried to .451 and that's what I ordered. My mistake was when I purchased the next .44, which some how didn't come with a book, or a pamphlet or even .44 stamped on the barrel I assumed it too would use the .451. After I built my third Black powder rifle, that I knew to take a .530 I tried to get this gentleman to make me another swag kit for it's caliber but he had gone out of business, so I just cast the round ball for it, though I buy swaged for hunting.

The lumps are cut using the swag, it has two index pins for aligning the tools for the process, when cutting the lumps a set screw is used to adjust the shear point. You can tell if enough metal is sheared once you swag the ball, it forms a symmetrical ring with flashing that looks much like Saturn.

The aluminum mold that is used to cast the rods and is part of the kit has a cherried out hole that does not go all the way through the aluminum bar mold but cuts through to .451, you place the Saturn on it and push, the flashing is seared off, after a few days of oxidizing you can’t tell, it’s a perfect swaged round ball. It a very neat rig, I’ll take a series of pictures when I can find the time.

[BCRider]

Like most used gun deals my own Remingtons and 1851 didn't come with any sort of manual at all. So I've had to rely on the Black Powder Mob for my guidance. So far so good.... :D

[BHP FAN]

I cast all my own haven't bought any,in years.

[BlackNet]

That's the last thing you want. Without that sliver of lead how will you know the ball doesn't have a surface imperfection that will allow hot gas to enter the chamber? There's a good reason for using an oversize ball and getting that lead ring shaved off. It's your best insurance (along with proper fitting caps) against a chain fire.

that's what the over power and over ball wads are for. each 1/8" lubed wool pads. one between the powder and ball and one over the ball. I currently use .454 myself but was considering trying the .451's.

Oldfalguy, As for loaders head over to powderinc.com and buy the one they have. They are superb.
http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/d/30709-2/IMG_8292.JPG

[ricklin]

My Pietta likes the .454, shaves a good ring, I think .451 would be marginal, at best. Mine is about 2 years old. Stainless Target

[Sagetown]

hushnel:
Dixie Gun Works 2009 catalog give a list of specifications for each brand they sell. From depth of riflings to number of lands, barrel diameters, etc.
Pietta for all but one of their New Model Remingtons shoot the .451"dia. ball.
Their 'Dixie Shooter' a $675 New Model Remington by Pietta shoots the .457".

Uberti and Euro Arms both list the .454" dia. ball as the required ball. They also list the size of Percussion caps to use also. All list the #11.

Sage

[hushnel]

Thanks, Sagetown. I'll have to get one of DGW catalogs.

The revolver I bought the .451 swag for bit off a very nice ring of lead when loading. I lost my job in 1980 and moved from Pittsburgh to Miami. That revolver was loaded for a little better than two years. I bet a guy I worked with that all cylinders would fire, I won. I showed this guy how to shoot black powder, he had the Ruger Old Army, that was the first I learned of the .457 round ball.

I’m a great fan of standardization, a .44 should shoot a .44 be it .451, 454, of 457 round ball. But it ain’t a perfect world or I would be working on two or three types of ventilators rather than 15 or so. I had a long history with the .451 and never knew until my buddies Ruger that they used different round ball and even then I figured it was just something Ruger did, I mean it really wasn’t anything close to a Remington New Army .44 at all, other than shooting blackpowder.

[mykeal]

I have a great deal of respect for Dixie Gun Works and their very worthwhile catalog. However, I have to advise a bit of caution. Consider the following: On page 632 of the 2009 catalog they publish a chart entitled "Chart of Ball Sizes to Use in Reproduction Guns". The chart specifies .451 for all the .44 cal guns listed save the Remington New Army (no brands are mentioned). That includes, interestingly, the Colt Walker, which Pietta doesn't make. The Walker in the chart is specified as having a chamber diameter of .450 - using a .451 ball in a gun with a .450 chamber diameter is simply nonsense.

I also must take exception with the specification of unbranded No. 11 caps for ALL percussion revolvers. Not all No. 11 caps are the same. CCI No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches and a height of 0.162 inches; Remington No. 11 caps have an opening diameter of 0.166 inches but a height of just 0.142 inches. They do not fit the same nipples.

Despite those problems, and a couple of others, I still value and refer to the DGW catalog
frequently. I'm simply suggesting that, like with all reference materials, a grain of salt is worthwhile until one can verify the data.

[Sagetown]

Yep mykeal; I saw that Chart myself. And of course there's been a lot of discussion about the caps. This pic pretty much shows an eye-ball difference in the caps and the aftermarket Treso Nipples. Did I get this from you?

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/FourBee/sizecompare.jpg

[mykeal]

Nope. I wish it was mine.