[inthelineofire]

Just curious what people think is the best HD buckshot. I currently keep 2 3/4" #1 buck (16 pellets). I thought the extra pellets would be better for in the house, which is the only place I'd be using these. Would 9 pellets of 00 be better? Worse?

Just looking for opinions here, what everyone uses, and why. Be as detailed as you wish! :o

[Lee Lapin]

I first heard the old "#1 buck has more usefully sized pellets" argument in a hunter safety class when I was in high school. I have yet to find a barrel that will pattern #1 worth a darn.

Yet I can get index card (3X5") sized patterns of 00 buck at 25 yards out of several different guns. I'll stick with tight patterns, and not worry about pellet count, thanks.

lpl

[CoRoMo]

Lee beat me to it...

While twenty-seven .24caliber sized projectiles sounds more effective than nine .32caliber pellets, it's the pattern that counts.

[Gik-tal]

I've always used #4 buck, at most distances that I might have to shoot in the house it patterns good.

[inthelineofire]

It's going to be a 18" barrel with no choke... Maximum range will be 20 feet.

[CoRoMo]

Take it to the range, along with a few different types of ammo.

Shoot it on paper at ten yards or so, and compare the groups.

Tighter is better.

[inthelineofire]

Will do. Thanks! I think I did test many different loads at the range, but this was ages ago.

[rcmodel]

00 Buck is universally used by the military and police.

If there was an over-penetration issue with 00 Buck, the police especially would not use it.

I personally saw the results of a shotgun shooting while in the service.
A stockade guard shot a prisoner off the wire at about 15 yards using an 20" riot gun and Super-X 00 buck.

All nine pellets completely penetrated the prisoner back to front.
And all nine pellets were found inside the DOA's white cotton undershirt during the autopsy.

If you have a good pattern and hit what you shoot at, over-penetration through walls and such is not an issue.

If you miss with part or all of the pattern, any size buckshot will go through a wall at close range.

rc

[inthelineofire]

Is there anyone here who keeps, or would feel safe keeping #1?

[stealth]

It seems some knowledgable people are saying tight patterns are best, but the OP was talking about household distance.

While I agree uniform patterns (even spacing between pellets) are good, I'm not sure I buy into tight patterns at HD distance. For instance, Federal has a 00 Buck load that stays within the wad until it strikes its target, would you use that for HD? It is a bit extreme but its the same idea.

For any given distance I'd think evenly spaced COMish sized patterns (or slightly smaller than COM) are best.



PS: I'd probably use 00 over #4, because of stories like rcmodels and because he's right about the police choosing that load and why. I do hypothesize #4 would be darn perfect for stuff like yotes or even big coons, pattern willing.

Edited to add: Forget where I've read it but a credible source said #1 would actually be optimal, it's just 00 is much more available. Take that for what its worth though, I dont want to be responsible for perpetuating internet misinformation.

Heres the kicker, I havent even bought my shotgun yet! -.-

Anyway, Looking forward to more discussion.

[inthelineofire]

I used #4 on a couple groundhogs this summer, did wonders. Certainly no follow up shots required! I am going to pattern the gun with the #1 this weekend. There has to be a reason as to why I chose it in the first place, but I can't seem to remember what the patterns looked like. That'll give me something to do this weekend. :p

No, I wouldn't use the Federal that stays with the wad until impact stuff. Wouldn't it have basically the same characteristics as a slug?

Thanks for the input, guys. Hopefully more conversation comes on this topic.

[Kindrox]

After watching an execellent demonstration video on the subject, we will be loading #6 shot into the 870's I just baught for HD. While other options are sure to be deadlier, I think 7 shots of it should be effective at the 0-20 foot range, and it should stop in the second interior wall.

It has been a while since I watched the video but if I recall, buckshot passed through four interior walls and then for an unknown distance.

I am going to have an ammo cuff on the butts stocked with 00 for anything needing more range.

[mljdeckard]

I've kept #4 for years. I honestly use it because it's what I keep on hand for general outdoor use. I think that at indoor ranges, it's an ounce of lead. It's a lot of splitting hairs in real life.

I certainly wouldn't tell anyone using #1, 00 or 000 that they are doing it wrong.

[stealth]

On my quest for energy-per-pellet info I struck upon this, It may put some more perspective to it. Look at the energy (also weight & velocity) per pellet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NdbZBDzy3FgC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=buckshot+energy+per+pellet&source=bl&ots=dkXLgX-I0o&sig=4hkE2qMUkp6YNWqGxFSPHVi8jOk&hl=en&ei=8_KKSovzA4W2NrTX1ccP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=buckshot%20energy%20per%20pellet&f=false

=======================Comparison===================
__name_____pellets_____diameter_____weight____velocity____energy____
__#4_________27________.24"_________20gr____1325 fps___78 ft-lbs___
__#1_________16________.30"_________40gr____1250 fps___139 ft-lbs__
__00__________9________.33"_________61gr____1325 fps____237 ft-lbs__

Theres more info in the link but I pulled these figures out.

[Glamdring]

No.1 Buck is my personal pick. OO buck is second choice. "O" buck is another good choice.

OO buck is most common and highest tech stuff you can get (ie low recoil & flite control wads).

I won't use No.4 buck by choice.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Go experiment with some shells at the range and use what yous feels best with. Do consider the availability of what you will use and don't forget to practice, practice, and practice.

[Guns and more]

we will be loading #6 shot into the 870's I just bought for HD.
Birdshot? What are the details?
I've never heard of #6 buckshot.

[Lee Lapin]

I know anecdotes do not equal data, but I suggest birdshot users take a look at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html . And consider whether or not they might be able to get off more than one shot if needed, should things go really bad. Counting on being able to empty a magazine is planning on something that might well not materialize, IMHO... remember Murphy? He hasn't forgotten you.

lpl

[rcmodel]

a credible source said #1 would actually be optimal, it's just 00 is much more available.Then why is 00 Buck more available?

It seems like if #1 was better, that would be the size most commonly available.

Consider the larger cop departments & the military can get mass quantities of anything they want made.
If #1 was better then 00, they would all be using #1, and it would be most commonly available.

rc

[KBintheSLC]

Seems like anything from 000 tthrough #4 buck would pretty much do the job. I can't foresee anyone continuing the fight after taking any of those loads if properly placed.

[Gryffydd]

After watching an execellent demonstration video on the subject, we will be loading #6 shot into the 870's I just baught for HD.
Wow, it only took 12 posts for someone to bring up this terrible idea...:banghead: I'd love to see this video. I'm guessing it shows water jugs exploding or some such.

[Girodin]

+1 on patterning and testing various loads to see what you and your particular gun like.

I use 00 buck.

[cleardiddion]

The first three rounds in mine are #4 buck, to convince the perp to leave.
The last three are 00 buck, to convince him to stay until the cops show up.

[USSR]

At this distance, Maximum range will be 20 feet., someone hit with a load of #6 shot will be just as dead. There are no degrees of dead.

Don

[Col. Plink]

I've seen penetration reports that say #4 buckshot has comparable depth of penetration to larger sizes, and at greater # per shot would be preferable. I decided I'd use the same rationale and go with 3" T shot shells, which at .20 caliber are just under #4 buck in size and there are something like 40 of them in a magnum shell. Steel T shot may not be preferable over distance as it is less dense than lead, but at close range that is not an issue and the greater velocity can only help. 3" T's are also cheaper than buckshot!

[inthelineofire]

Cost is not an issue here. I bought a little of everything before prices skyrocketed, and it's not like I'm going to need 100 rounds for my HD shotgun. :p

[Kindrox]

Wow, it only took 12 posts for someone to bring up this terrible idea... I'd love to see this video. I'm guessing it shows water jugs exploding or some such.


In the video there was a mockup of four interior "walls" with each wall 1/2" sheetrock spaced with 2"x4"'s. Just like real life. Then the guy proceeded to shoot through the walls with many common rounds considered low penetration. .22's, 9MM frangible, lightweight .223, frangible .223, 12GA buckshot and 12guage birdshot. In almost every case except birdshot, at least part of the round (if not all) made it through all four walls and an unknown distance beyond that.

All the stuff advocated here for low penetration, except birdshot. Birdshot stopped INSIDE the second wall. I am not planning on using it outside the house, just from zero to 20 feet. And do I expect one shot to knock a BG out of his socks dead? No, that is why I have 7 shots. One shot might not stop a BG, but I am reasonable sure he will freeze up for a second. A second is all that is needed for a follow up shot, and another as needed.

I think it is unreasonable to think that a BG won't notice a hit at chose range. With that you have more time to do what is needed. At 0-20 feet I think you'll get further with 7 rounds of 12 guage and #6 than you will with 12 rounds of 9mm.

Life is a tradeoff. I would not even moved to a shotgun if penetration was not a concern, I could have stuck with an AR15. In Texas if you kill a bystander accidentally while defending yourself, you are going to jail. In a city setting like ours, most directions you can shoot is going to be right at another dwelling.

[Steve C]

Pattern means nothing at household distances. Unless everyone here lives in a 20,000 sqare foot mansion the extreme dimensions of a typical single story house will have no distance greater than 60 feet (20 yards) wall to wall (considering 60x60 would be a 3,600 sqft house) so unless you and your target have your back to the extreme walls you will likely be at some distance way less than that.

If your gun throws extreemly tight patterns at 25 yards then at typical household ranges of 5 to 10 yds they'll be even tighter in which case you are not better off than with a slug and need to aim very carefully. The lack of spread actually negates the shotguns main advantage of delivering multiple dispersed wounds on a target that have a high chance that one or more of these impacts will be in a vital spot.

[inthelineofire]

And do I expect one shot to knock a BG out of his socks dead? No, that is why I have 7 shots. One shot might not stop a BG, but I am reasonable sure he will freeze up for a second. A second is all that is needed for a follow up shot, and another as needed.


That is where you and I are different. I want my FIRST SHOT to STOP the perp.... Not make him "freeze up for a second." I don't really want to NEED take a follow up shot.

[Kindrox]

I want my FIRST SHOT to STOP the perp

If that is your first and only priority, ammo up accordingly :evil:

If I live out in the country, by myself, I probably would use 000 3" shells. I don't like crazy recoil that is quite managable to me. Then again I think I'd stick with the AR15 or FAL.

[Girodin]

a mockup of four interior "walls" with each wall 1/2" sheetrock spaced with 2"x4"'s. Just like real life

My walls have insulation in them.

Let me get you logic straight in my mind. You have a gun for self defense. A situation that would allow its use is that your life is, presumably, in danger. The gun would be deployed to stop an imminent threat. To accomplish that task what ever projectiles are fired need to reach and damage the CNS or major organs. In the case of the later a physiological stop is not likely to be immediate. As unpleasant as the though is the person will likely need to loose a fair amount of blood to be genuinely physically disabled. What does that mean? The CNS is fairly well armored. To whit bird shot is not likely to penetrate ones skull. It also cannot be counted on act like a slug. If it does why doesn't it penetrate sheet rock like a slug? It wont penetrate sheet rock like a slug but it will penetrate a BG and his potentially heavy clothing like a slug? Keep in mind as we discuss penetration that you may not have a nice full frontal shot. The BG might be bladed off or any other number of conceivable. and not improbable, scenarios. You cannot count on bird shot to deliever the type of terminal balliutics you'll want in any situation that justifies using a shotgun in defense. I have shot birds at distances that I could shoot in my house that I had to go wring their necks. If it doesn't kill a pheasant why would it drop a 200 Lbs human?

That is where you and I are different. I want my FIRST SHOT to STOP the perp.... Not make him "freeze up for a second." I don't really want to NEED take a follow up shot.

You are expressing a sentiment that we can all identify with. If that horrible moment arrived that one was forced to shoot another person in self defense then of course you want the threat stopped ASAP. It is important to remember however follow up shots will not only possibly be needed but that they should be planned on. Guns are not death rays. Even a slug from a 3" mag cannot be counted on to provide an immediate stop. I have seen deer take them and run a hundred yards+. If a whitetail can make it a few hundred yards is it so unreasonable to think a 200Lbs + human might make it 20' or return fire?

[Kindrox]

My walls have insulation in them.

You insulate your interior walls with kevlar insulation? That is not code down here.

A situation that would allow its use is that your life is, presumably, in danger

Down here I can't kill bystanders to save my own neck. And I don't want to kill my wife or kid a couple rooms over either.

why would it drop a 200 Lbs human?

Lets test it. You start 20 feet from me, and see if you can get to me before I stop you. Will I stop a 400 #, ampped up on PCP terroist who was just promissed 1,000 virgins if he can kill me before I stop him? I don't know. I don't think that is who I am defending myself against.

Some people here think that birdshot at 20 feet will be like using a squirt gun. I don't think that is true. Get hit with 5-6 paintballs all at the same time. Your body will be frozen in pain for at least several seconds. And you probably want to leave my house bigtime now. I have 7 shots in case the first 6 don't get the message across.

Don't bother responding if nothing less than 3.5" magnum slugs/000 buckshot shells are all you can imagine other people using. I personally would not even be using a shotgun but for peneration is now a real issue in our house.

[RSVP2RIP]

Personally I use #1. Specifically Federal Classic F127 1B 16 Pellet. It groups well, Capstick thought highly of it, in europe, SSG size shot, which is most common, is closest to #1, it has the most energy to payload of most buck loads and is .30" compared to .33" of 00 buck. Pattern what you want to as well as what you don't want to use and you will find what worls best for you. Several sources sugest #4 for HD in apartments and such. ABSOLUTLY NO CREDIBLE sources I have read actually sugest using bird shot of any size for HD, by choice.

[Gryffydd]

In almost every case except birdshot, at least part of the round (if not all) made it through all four walls and an unknown distance beyond that.
So the video specifically showed that the penetration of birdshot is woefully inadequate... If it won't penetrate a couple layers of drywall it won't penetrate to vitals.
Yes, it's about compromises, but one thing I won't compromise on is a round that's able to actually stop someone, not motivate them to choose to stop

Lets test it.
It has been tested. It does not have the penetration it needs to work reliably.

Get hit with 5-6 paintballs all at the same time. Your body will be frozen in pain for at least several seconds.
Are you serious?

[RSVP2RIP]

I agree, from experience, that getting hit with 5-6 paintballs at the same time, does not send me to the ground convulsing in pain. It made me run, to my misfortune, towards the point of origin.

[Girodin]

The insulation comment was a joke, I'll put a a smiley next time. On a serious not I have VERY few walls that are simply bare walls. Most have cupboards, heavy furniture, bookshelves, etc.

[Gryffydd]

OC sometimes just enrages people and makes them more aggressive rather than eliminating them as a threat.

...
I just realized how that sounds exactly like something one of the anti-open carry people around here would say...:evil:

[snooperman]

The first 3 is loaded with #4 buck followed by 2 OO buckshot. Remington has a new load designed for home defense that just came on the market, loaded with BB. They say it is ideal for in the house. I have not used it but the Coast Guard and Navy is using it for certain applications.

[Girodin]

Down here I can't kill bystanders to save my own neck. And I don't want to kill my wife or kid a couple rooms over either.

You cannot anywhere. It does not negate my point. Over penetration might be an issue for you. That does not mean bird shot is a reliable or sufficient HD option. It does not mean that bird shot does not have all the short coming that I stated.

Lets test it. You start 20 feet from me, and see if you can get to me before I stop you.

I guess I shouldn't be suprised that someone who reasons that the same ammo that cannot go through some drywall will stop a person fills there retorts with red herrings and poor logic. Even if we conducted your proposed test the results of it would be called an antidote. That said there have been enough cases of people getting shot with bird shot and surviving to know that it would be with in the realm of possibility for a person to survive. Ask Dick Cheney if he thinks birdshot is a man stopper. Hell, I know a guy that was on the receiving end of someone swinging through a shot on a pheasant and coming around and hitting him. Was it pleasant? No. Was he dead? No. Was he immediately incapacitated? No.

Get hit with 5-6 paintballs all at the same time. Your body will be frozen in pain for at least several seconds.

Are you serious? Maybe if you have a low pain tolerance as were the kid that played PC games instead of contact sports. I've been shot with multiple paintballs before and it was hardly parylizing pain, it did leave some welts but was nothing approaching the experience you are describing. I know people who have been shot with real guns and not imediately realized it.

Some people here think that birdshot at 20 feet will be like using a squirt gun.

Hyberbole is not a better replacement for logic or evidence than your red herrings are. No one has said anything approaching that. What people have said is that birdshot does not have reliable penetration to be a good choice for HD. Re-read my post about what can reliably cause physiological stops from gun shots. Tell me what part of that is wrong.

Don't bother responding if nothing less than 3.5" magnum slugs/000 buckshot shells are all you can imagine other people using. I personally would not even be using a shotgun but for peneration is now a real issue in our house.

Another comment that seeks to use rhetoric instead of addressing the validity of any of the claims made by those that assert that bird shot is a poor choice. That is what your whole post was. You did not raise one legitimate counter point nor did you even address the issues. Lets recap your post. You spewed rhetoric in place of facts or reason. At least it is easy for those who may not be familiar with firearms or the like to see that you do not have a tenable position. BTW, my current load is a 2 3/4 reduced recoil 00 buckshot load. If you'd read my critically you might note that I suggested people test a wide range of load to see which perform well for them and their gun. Does that sound like I think one needs to have a specific load that I approve of? That is not the only reason your false dichotomy theme--if one doesn't like bird shot they must think it has to be the most powerful loadings available--was asinine and contributed nothing to this thread other than to point out that your reasoning skills are wanting and to underscore the "logic" that also lead you to think bird shot was a good HD choice.

Humor me on this point because I have a theory. What professional training have you acquired in the defensive (or tactical generally) use of shotguns?

Additionally instead of offering more logical fallacies and rhetoric please tell me why bird shot will be able to reach the vitals of BG when it cannot get through sheet rock?

The fact is anything that can preform like it needs to for SD/HD will be able to go through drywall.

[litework]

I have nothing but OO buck in the tubes of my two main shotguns. I keep a couple of slugs and some "less than lethals" in the side saddle or in the speed feed stock. The shotgun is my go to gun and I keep OO buck in it because it's what I'm familiar with and it pretty versatile. I like to keep some alternative ammo on hand in case my needs change.

[Kindrox]

Girodin,

I think you pretty much summed up your point

The fact is anything that can preform like it needs to for SD/HD will be able to go through drywall.

I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator. All the pistol caliber frangible rounds and the .223 rounds touted for acceptable HD (i.e. lack of over-penetration) all share the same limitation - it's hard to drill a BG 14" deep but stop in the first or second wall.

What professional training have you acquired in the defensiveuse of shotguns?

You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide. I’m sure you’re a real riot in the “what .380 for SD” threads too.

What you don't get is that many reasonable people are trying to balance two things, their own safety with the safety of bystanders. Since you don’t get it, you can’t even contribute with “hay this is a more effective round with the same (lack of wall) penetration if you miss.” You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.

I have families with little kids on three sides of me, not to mention my own family. I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.

[Kindrox]

From a link posted in another thread

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428

Shotguns may be the most powerful repeating shoulder-fired gun available, but when stoked with 00 buckshot they are certainly not a low-penetration option. In fact, the way the pellets spread out after passing through intermediate barriers makes the safety of anyone or anything within three rooms of a shotgun blast highly dubious.

The author says three rooms because they didn't have more in their testing. It could well be (and from what I had seen it is) more.

[arizona98tj]

Cost is not an issue here. I bought a little of everything before prices skyrocketed, and it's not like I'm going to need 100 rounds for my HD shotgun.

Hopefully none of us will ever have to shoot a BG 100 times in our house. :what:

That being said....do you not practice? 100 rounds is maybe two trips to the range for a shotgun session. I buy 00 buckshot by the case. :uhoh:

I do believe that there are contributors in this thread (and I'm not addressing the person I quoted) who have never had a stitch of professional training in the effective use of a shotgun nor bother to spend any substantial time at the range in order to maintain their skill at arms. If you are worried about excess penetrations through walls and such, then get some professional trigger training and spend time practicing so you'll be able to hit the BG and not worry so darn much about missed shots going places you don't want them to go. ;) Remember, your reactions and performance during a gun fight will most likely be half as good as your worst day at the range. How bad can you afford to be?

[Gryffydd]

“what .380 for SD”
A .380 would be vastly better for defense than birdshot

I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator.
No, but you're trying to sell it as being sufficient for defense.

You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.
And you're in a rut of putting yourself and your family in danger by using a round that won't stop a threat. You say you're balancing your safety with your neighbors, but you're selling yourself short.

You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide.
Right, because if someone says birdshot isn't enough for HD they must think you should use a .458 Win Mag with solids :rolleyes: Again with the false dilemma.

I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.
Because we all know there's only a .001% difference in performance between buckshot and birdshot... :rolleyes:

I have families with little kids on three sides of me, not to mention my own family.
Maybe you should figure out your shooting lanes ahead of time. Remember, you're not going to be clearing your house SWAT style. Hole up, defend, ambush. Pick your shots.

[pmrtruck]

Birdshot, I once thought like you, kinda hard to imagine anyone walking through a blast and still getting you... Times change. Check this out, this is what birdshot does...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc1_1188927831

I now use slugs and am going to get some 00 buckshot. 2 3/4" shells have enough power with a 1 ounce slug and are easier to shoot than 3". Not by much but why should I work so hard.

I want to try less-than lethal but the costs are so damned high for that stuff. I figure why should I pay extra so a BG can have another chance at their POS life. I am now toying with the one shot idea.

Shot placement.

Shotguns are great machines.:)

[Zoogster]

Then why is 00 Buck more available?

It seems like if #1 was better, that would be the size most commonly available.

Consider the larger cop departments & the military can get mass quantities of anything they want made.
If #1 was better then 00, they would all be using #1, and it would be most commonly available.


#1 buck is the smallest size that will reliably penetrate to the depths required to reach vitals. What that means is more holes in vitals than a larger pellet size. Going beyond the vitals into more non vital tissue does not make the round deadlier than having more going through vitals.

The reason police have long used 00 buck is because it is better for a wider range of applications from further distances. It retains energy and patterns better at 15-20 yards, realistic ranges for a PD. They shoot in and around vehicles, needing more penetration.
So something with slightly lower stopping power, but more versatile in a wider range of applications is better for police use.

That said #1 buck being optimal is against thin clothed individuals with no concealment or cover at close range. Add some household items in the way, a car door, some heavy clothing, or over 10 yards of distance and it may no longer be optimal.


Think of it this way, if the vitals are reached and penetrated, additional penetration is unnecessary, it just penetrates more non vital tissue, and sacrifices more pellets that could be penetrating vital tissue.
16 .30 pellets of #1 if they all penetrate through the vitals is a combined diameter of 4.8 inches. 9 .33 00 buck pellets is a combined total of 2.97 inches. That is 1.83 inches of difference.
If you then add the third dimension, the wound channel depth and consider only up to and just through the vitals is of maximum importance, and more is wasted. So the smallest buckshot that will do that will inflict the greatest damage to vitals.
#1 buck has been shown through studies to be that size from reasonable distances.

I am not advocating #1 buck, but it contains the largest stopping potential of any size buckshot at home defense ranges against a a human target with nothing in between the target and the pellets. No cover, no body armor, and thin clothing at close range.

00 buck retains nearly 3/4 of the stopping power of #1 buck, but is far more versatile at longer ranges, or when there is heavy clothing, or minor objects in the way. It retains energy at longer ranges and often patterns better. So it will perform reliably under more circumstances.

Anything smaller than #1 buck is not shown to reliably penetrate to vitals within practical ranges of the shotgun.
It can still be deadly at closer ranges, but is even less reliable. #4 buck may be suitable for applications at ranges just outside of muzzle blast but within a small room. Even tiny birdshot is lethal within the range of the muzzle blast (consider it is used to blow locks open, doors open, and destroy hinges from a few inches away.) But birdshot loses effectiveness in feet, and outside of muzzle blast range is too far, and getting that close to a home intruder with a long arm unnecessarily puts you at excessive risk.

Shot size is all about compromise. Bigger is not always better. Smaller is less penetration, and larger is less payload and holes in the target.

[Kindrox]

prmtruck,

I don't have audio on my computer, how far away was the shooter? I haven't patterned my HD gun yet but I would think at 20 feet you would get a pattern a few inches across. That pattern looked like it would be a couple feet in diameter I am assuming the shoot was more like 20 yards away, not 20 feet. How many intruders would take a hit to the face like that at 20 yards and keep coming? Plus you have 20 more yards to discourage him.

getting that close to a home intruder

How can you be that far away? The longest distance i could possibly be from an intruder (and still be line of sight) is about 30 feet. Generally the longest distance i could be in our house is 20 feet. For this ambush of which you speak, we would generally be 10 feet apart.

Maybe you should figure out your shooting lanes ahead of time. Remember, you're not going to be clearing your house SWAT style. Hole up, defend, ambush. Pick your shots.

I don't know how realistic this is. Which way is the BG coming from? One of the three doors of the house? A window? Where are my kids? Wife? Can I really train my wife to have figgured all this out in advance?

Because we all know there's only a .001% difference in performance between buckshot and birdshot...

What differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with? There seem to be plenty of people with actual hands on experiance that would give a single round of birdshot very high marks. And again i am prepared to give you 7:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293449

From what I have read on the subject, people with actual experiance give birdshot decent marks at HD range. We all agree there are things that could be better, but nobody with actual experiance believe birdshot at 20 feet is a toy. Then there are people with no experiance who are able to conclude that those using birdshot are morons :)

A .380 would be vastly better for defense than birdshot

Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while. I am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away) with birdshot, you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.

[Kindrox]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I hadn't seen this link before. Good information on wall peneration of different shotgun loadings.

[Gryffydd]

From what I have read on the subject, people with actual experiance give birdshot decent marks at HD range
Are any of these people actual professionals? I can find you plenty of random dudes on internet forums who think birdshot is great (Hey, look at you!). What exactly is your criteria for people with "experiance"? [sic] I also like how you linked to a story about a guy who shot himself at point blank range with both barrels of birdshot and he didn't die...

am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away)...
Did you think I was talking about a single shot .380?

Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while.
Wait, paintballs will make someone freeze with pain but being shot with a .380 won't?
Second, at least a .380 is capable of reliably penetrating to vitals. A truly lucky CNS hit is one where birdshot somehow manages to penetrate enough to get a CNS hit. Yet somehow you seem to think birdshot is more likely to magically reach something vital?

you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.
See, that's just the thing. I don't want to rely on what someone may make someone uninterested in fighting. I want to rely on something that can make them incapable of fighting.

What differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with?
Well let's see here...one reliably penetrates to vitals, one reliably fails to penetrate to vitals. When it comes to actually STOPPING someone, that's an ENORMOUS difference. If it were .0001% don't you think all the police agencies would be using birdshot instead of buckshot?

[Gryffydd]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I hadn't seen this link before. Good information on wall peneration of different shotgun loadings.
Yes, that is an excellent link. Let's take a look at it, shall we?
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.


Thanks for the excellent link!

[Kindrox]

Are any of these people actual professionals?

Yes, the professionals that process the dead bodies.

[Zoogster]

How can you be that far away? The longest distance i could possibly be from an intruder (and still be line of sight) is about 30 feet. Generally the longest distance i could be in our house is 20 feet. For this ambush of which you speak, we would generally be 10 feet apart.


Birdshot should not be used for defense. Having tested many loads at many ranges on various targets just having fun at informal shooting areas, it will only destroy something solid within about 2-3 feet. It would not penetrate into tissue very far but within muzzle blast distances of 2 feet it will do serious damage.
Within 1-2 feet it would easily blow open a rib cage, or shatter a skull. You can chop 2x4 pieces of wood in half at that range without a hiccup. Back up 1-2 feet more and it just occasionaly blows them in half or takes out large chunks, and back up another 1-2 feet and it just peppers the target with the same load. Huge difference.
Having experience with powerheads, more commonly known as bang guns, I also know a shotgun loaded with anything would be deadly with the muzzle touching the target, but it could blow or bulge the barrel. The muzzle blast combined with any shot within tissue would destroy the tissue. Underwater blanks do as much damage when fired with the muzzle touching as rounds with projectiles do. The muzzle blast does far more damage than the projectile ever could.

The difference 1-2 feet make with birdshot is so huge that it would be foolish to use it for home defense. Once some of the shot leaves the shotcup it ceases to be effective. Prior to that it acts like a sintered slug.
An old poaching trick is to cut the top of a birdshot shell just under the shot most of the way around the shell. When the round was fired the entire top of the shotshell was blown down the barrel, acting more or less like a slug (dangerous with a choke). Those rounds would easily take down deer according to many poachers.
So a plastic slug filled with tiny birdshot acts almost like an actual slug. Similarly a shotcup from 1-2 feet filled with birdshot is not much different.
But from 5 feet away it will just make a light shallow wound. The individual pellets once they leave the shotcup will not have enough individual mass to penetrate enough to reach anything important.

So inches -1 foot away absolutely lethal, 2 feet still devastating, 3 feet may or may not work. 5-10 feet won't stop anyone determined to shoot back.
So birdshot is reliably effective from about 1 yard.
Do you want to limit yourself to 1 yard?

[Gryffydd]

No one ever said birdshot won't kill people. The issue is that it is a poor stopper.
If it weren't there would at least be some police agencies using it. There would be at least some shooting schools teaching its use. But there's not.
The fact that no one seriously involved with shooting for defense advocates birdshot outweighs in my mind the people who have seen a few people killed by birdshot...

[winchester '97]

anything of decent size that will put 75% or better of the pellets into someones chest at indoor hd ranges will be effective. just based on how it patterns out of my gun i like 000 buck. overkill? yes. all the pellets in a basketball sized circle at 50 feet? yes.

[inSight-NEO]

I personally prefer Low-Recoil 00 Buckshot (9 pellet) as it affords very tight patterns for all of my smoothbores, is very manageable for quick follow-up shots (if necessary) and is not quite as penetrative as "standard" 00 Buck.

Now, all of this talk about penetration/overpenetration is understandable. However, Im of the mind that knowing your weapon, familiarizing yourself with the ammo you currently choose for HD use, being aware of your surroundings and practice (and more practice) means much more than arguing about penetration related issues. Not to mention that unless you can clearly identify and see your intended target, you have no reason to fire anyway. Closely tied to this is to make sure the "target" is within ranges you are accustomed to.

Any effective (or relatively so) HD load can be penetrative...some more than others. Of course, the more penetrative rounds are usually better at stopping vs. others (at least when speaking of shotguns...for handguns, well, thats a different story). Just as a reminder, most effective handgun loads can penetrate further than even 00 Buckshot. Im also betting that these same handguns, unless weilded by trained hands, might allow for even greater chances of missing vs. any "aimed" shotgun. Something to keep in mind...

Regardless, almost any round can prove disastrous if fired from a weapon held by inexperienced or careless hands.

[rbernie]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

[Gryffydd]

rbernie, I think you missed posts 48 and 50 :D

[rbernie]

Yup. :)

Ah, well - always good to reiterate data.

[Gryffydd]

Ah, well - always good to reiterate data.
Especially when it's not being absorbed fully ;)

[inSight-NEO]

Well, I guess my last post essentially mirrored what has already been discovered via "the box of truth."

Regardless, I always find it fascinating that ammo choice, in this case for shotguns (as relating to HD), seems to incite as much "head scratching" as trying to sift through the various option packages offered for, say, Toyota vehicles.

Anyway, shotgun ammo (slugs notwithstanding), as a whole, generally will not penetrate as much as many popular handgun calibers/loads do. Yet, many, many people use handguns for HD purpose.

Now sure, researching ammo effectiveness/penetration is not a bad thing at all. Im sure we have all done it for the most part. But, in the end, remember why you are using the shotgun (or handgun) for HD in the first place...to STOP a violent threat. The possible danger of over analyzing ammo selection is that one may become inclined to continue "stepping down" in power due to his/her concerns about penetration issues and essentially, could end up with ammo that really is not all that effective. Thus, one could then be left with a somewhat less-than-effective HD solution. Balance is sometimes hard to acheive, but you want to tip the balance in your favor...not the assailants.

Keep in mind, Im not saying that you fall within this category. Rather, Im just giving you a general opinion of mine as relating to this particular topic.

So, what Im trying to say is this: Try not to become completely wrapped up in this "overpenetration" issue when considering buckshot. Yes, many buckshot loads penetrate quite well, but then again, so do many "effective" loads. Find the most effective load you feel comfortable with, one that has been proven to STOP an opponent in his/her tracks, and get used to firing it...over and over. Practice using your shotgun...over and over and over. Try having a well thought out and plausible plan should someone ever enter your dwelling with bad intentions. Then consider this "plan" over and over.

To me, this stuff will go much much further than being hung up on which HD load is better for this or for that.

[The Wiry Irishman]

On one of the many other "can I use birdshot on things that aren't birds" threads, someone linked to some rather gruesome autopsy photos. The dead many had been shot twice with bird shot, once in the leg and once in the chest, then brought down with either a rifle or pistol. (I can't remember) The bird shot wounds looked like somebody had used a cookie cutter to remove a 1/2 inch deep circle of flesh. The man was somewhat overweight, and the birdshot wound to his chest didn't go deep enough to reveal bone, much less penetrate it.

[Kindrox]

Practice using your shotgun...over and over and over. Try having a well thought out and plausible plan should someone ever enter your dwelling with bad intentions. Then consider this "plan" over and over.


When i read this, I think "execellent advice . . . for the single man." I know there are women out there into this, but i don't think the typical woman is.

My wife will go to the range several times a year but she is not a gun nut. She is not going to walking the house practicing fire lanes a couple times a month. And she is even less comfortable than I am with a loading such that if she misses with a shot, she will be sending lead into a neighbors house.

I'd rather have her confident in carrying and using a shotgun inside the house, with her knowing the limitations of her ammo. The notion that she is better off with her .380 pistol made me chuckle, on box o truth it had about equal penetration as the shot I am initially planning to use.

[The Wiry Irishman]

The notion that she is better off with her .380 pistol made me chuckle, on box o truth it had about equal penetration as the shot I am initially planning to use.

12 gauge 7 1/2 birdshot gel test:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023

5.9" max penetration. Granted, you'll get more penetration with 6 shot, but this was also out of a longer-than-typical SD length barrel, which might even it out.

Link to a few .380 gel tests:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP.html

The worst penetration out of all of them was 9.4". Everything else was 12"+, including some hollowpoints. I don't think #6 shot is going to get you 6+ inches over the 7 1/2 I linked above.

I understand the concern with overpenetration. Maybe look at #4 buck. Here's the box of truth test, penetrated the equivalent of 3 walls, not too much more than birdshot:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

And a gel test of #4 buck:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

Almost 16" of penetration.

[pmrtruck]

:)
Great posts, links, information.
Lots of good thinking points.
Good information usually leads to better choices!
Thank you, all!
I have tasted the kool aid, 00 buck for my shotty!
Anyone looking to buy any birdshot?:p

[Girodin]

You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide. I’m sure you’re a real riot in the “what .380 for SD” threads too.

Keep spewing logical fallacies, this one is called an ad hominem. Lets follow your "logic" because I think one should get training I must be totally radical. The idea that one get professional training in the use of firearms, particularly for defensive use is not a radical idea. The fact that you think so is telling. The gun I carry the most often, because it best suits my particular needs at this time, is in fact a .380 ACP. When I carry something larger it is a 9mm. Your knowledge of what I do is as lacking as your knowledge about the defensive use of a shotgun.

What you don't get is that many reasonable people are trying to balance two things, their own safety with the safety of bystanders. Since you don’t get it, you can’t even contribute with “hay this is a more effective round with the same (lack of wall) penetration if you miss.” You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.

I would suggest you have your priorities way out of order. If you need to deploy a HD weapon it is because there is an immediate threat of death or serve bodily harm to you and/or your loved ones. The proximate concern is that threat. If you are unable to sucessefully stop that threat, the possibility of over penetration will not matter one iota. Take a moment to consider that. If you shoot a round might miss or overpenetrate, it then might go through a wall, where it might hit someone, who might be seriously injured or killed. Notice all those mights. If you do not stop an immenent threat there is not mights, maybes, or possibles. Yes people should do what is possible to minimize the risks of over penetration. This could include things like knowing the shooting lanes in your home, arranging furniture to cover problem spots, having a plan to congregate the family, etc. Ignoring the proximate threat for a more remote one is stupid. I was going to use a softer term but I think this thread (aided by your posts in it that are filled with baseless personal attacks, used as cover for your weak position) has gotten to the point where bluntness is warranted over trying to keep people feeling warm and fuzzy. So I will repeat, it is stupid and shows that you not only do not understand terminal ballistics you probably do not understand the types of situations that will warrant shooting some one.

I am not surprised you have no training in defensive shotgunning. Your posts make that very very clear. Statements like:

I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.

show that you do not get it? What living things have you ever shot with bird shot? What living things have you shot with buckshot? With a 5.56 round? I cannot imagine that it is many if you honestly believe that the difference between them is that negligible. I honestly don't know what to say to a statement like that.

Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while. I am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away) with birdshot, you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.

This one is truly funny. You can count on bird shot for a psychology stop but not a .380. Counting on psychological stop is stupid. You need to be aiming for a physiological stop. Re-read my posts on what will cause a physiological stop.

I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while.

If I just wanted to be jerk I would pull out your same silly argument, I'll get my .380 and lets try it if you are so sure. I think you understand why that is a stupid argument.

One of the major flaws in your home defense plan is you seem to be basing much of it and your arguments for bird shot on the false premise that one will certainly be able to get off multiple shots. You also seem to be premising it on the giant assumption that you will be dealing with one guy who you can pump bird shot at until he stops wanting to do you harm. Does that assumption not strike you as dangerous and with out good basis.

How many intruders would take a hit to the face like that at 20 yards and keep coming? Plus you have 20 more yards to discourage him.

You can guarantee a head shot? If you are so sure of making hits then why the fear of over penetration. After the projectiles go through a bad guy they wont have nearly as much steam left. Further, what guarantees that he needs to get to you? He couldn't have a gun?

hat differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with?

What data did you support yours with. I would point to my anecdotal experience having shot living things with a range of shotgun, rifle and pistol rounds. I would point to gel tests. I would point to the fact that no police agency or military uses bird shot, and one thing I learned from some experience I had being able to work with some DOD folks is they have plenty of money to test things out.

I haven't patterned my HD gun yet

I cannot say I am surpirsed in the least. I am astonished that you can so definitively tells us how your gun and ammo will preform having never patterned it.

Wife? Can I really train my wife to have figgured all this out in advance?/QUOTE]

Does she have the same resistance to training and new information that you do?

ALERT ALERT ALERT, the following is actually a point and not a logical fallacy and or an attack. This actually addresses something I typed in a somewhat sensical way.

[QUOTE]I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator. All the pistol caliber frangible rounds and the .223 rounds touted for acceptable HD (i.e. lack of over-penetration) all share the same limitation - it's hard to drill a BG 14" deep but stop in the first or second wall.

You might consider that certain rifle round may not provide the ideal penetration level but they are vastly superior to bird shot in that respect. I have shot living things with such rounds and the damage is notably different than the type of damage bird shot causes.

When i read this, I think "execellent advice . . . for the single man." I know there are women out there into this, but i don't think the typical woman is.

My wife will go to the range several times a year but she is not a gun nut. She is not going to walking the house practicing fire lanes a couple times a month. And she is even less comfortable than I am with a loading such that if she misses with a shot, she will be sending lead into a neighbors house.

If one wants to be able to use a gun in self defense it is axiomatic that one should be sufficiently proficient with it. Some of your comments seem to indicate that you envision you or your wife engaging is house clearly. That is dangerous, much more so if you have no clue what you are doing.

I am not, repeat not, suggesting that everyone has to be well trained and practice weekly with their firearms. I am suggesting that if you plan to employ a gun you ought to have a reasonable amount of QUALITY training. The likely hood of the type of outcomes goes up greatly with training.

Yes, the professionals that process the dead bodies.

I have an uncle who after graduating at the top of his class from Cornel Medical became a surgeon. He often does ER work. He also went to Iraq as a surgeon. He has seen his fair share of gun shot victims. He would tell you that bird shot is a better choice than rifle rounds, 00 buck or pistol rounds if you get to choose what you'll be shot with.

I do not think there is any new info or contentions to add to this thread. This is how all bird shot for HD threads go. Load what you think serves you best, and I genuinely hope neither of us ever have occasion to be able to say I told you so. I do not believe bird shot is good for HD (well perhaps if birds were attacking). Even if penetration issues are a serious concern I believe there are better choices. What is of at least equal concern to me is that tactics and skill sets tend to win the day even more so than equipment. You don't seem remotely open to improvements or obtaining more knowledge in either department. The good news is the odds of needing to shoot in HD is rather low.

[ARKIESTEEL]

I got a good deal a few years ago on some copper plated #4 turkey loads 3". I have a remington 870 with an 18 and half inch barrel and keep it loaded with them. At 20 feet it will shoot thru 1/4 inch plywood ever time I pull the trigger. I dont know how that compares to shooting into a bad guy but I would guess that he wouldnt be much of a problem after the first shoot. I am however open to any ideas somebody might have as to what I should use besides that. I have no "clear the house" training so my plan has always been to hole up in the bedroom with the wife and child (she still sleeps with us and I would as soon fight a bad guy bare knuckle as fight her about where she sleeps, I am working on it). The distance from the corner of the bed to the bedroom door is 8 feet, I think at that range just about any load for a shotgun would transfer the idea to the bad guy that you dont like him and dont want him in your house. Like I said open to ideas

[Gryffydd]

A couple of thoughts
copper plated #4 turkey loads 3"
Probably quite a bit better than #6 ;)

At 20 feet it will shoot thru 1/4 inch plywood ever time I pull the trigger.
So will my pellet rifle. Having 100 some pellets fired at the same time helps you with shot placement--increasing the odds that you hit something vital--but it's still about penetration. If all those 100 some pellets do is create a bunch of tiny flesh wounds then you're relying on the bad guy deciding to stop.

The distance from the corner of the bed to the bedroom door is 8 feet, I think at that range just about any load for a shotgun would transfer the idea to the bad guy that you dont like him and dont want him in your house.
On the other hand, he might get the idea that the quickest way to improve his situation is to shoot back or jump that last 6-8 feet and stick you with his knife. You want him to not have that choice because his aorta and parts of his spine are leaving him headed down your hallway. Sorry for the gruesome imagery, but that's what has to happen in order for you to be in control of the situation. If it's just a massive flesh wound--even if it may kill him later--not hitting vitals still leaves the choice in the bad guy's hands. He may decide to run. He may decide to lie down, and he may decide to shank you.

[JShirley]

It has been a while since I watched the video but if I recall, buckshot passed through four interior walls and then for an unknown distance.

Proving it possesses the penetration needed to stop a large aggressor. I always find it odd when folks looking for defensive ammunition choose loads based on what to miss with. Who cares what to miss with?

I'm concerned with what happens after I hit the home invader. Personally, I'm a slug man. This is based on what I've seen shooting live game, not from what I've read on the intarwebs. Regardless, as long as it patterned well, I wouldn't be overly concerned with using any shot size BB and larger inside a house, unless I lived in an area where bears or other large dangerous game might be an issue. In that case, only slugs need apply.

John

[inSight-NEO]

When i read this, I think "execellent advice . . . for the single man." I know there are women out there into this, but i don't think the typical woman is.

Actually, Im married. ;) My wife, for now, has yet to learn the "ins and outs" of the 12 ga. But, she has expressed a desire to learn; and this is where it all starts.

My wife will go to the range several times a year but she is not a gun nut. She is not going to walking the house practicing fire lanes a couple times a month. And she is even less comfortable than I am with a loading such that if she misses with a shot, she will be sending lead into a neighbors house.

I understand the point. To add, Im not necessarily a "gun nut" or "tactical afficianado." However, as I mentioned earlier, almost any effective HD load (those being very capable of one or two shot stops) will have decent penetration. There is almost no way around it, I believe. Hence, this is why practicing, to me, takes on such a significance when it comes to familiarity with any weapon used for HD. Personally, I dont want to leave it up to a "lighter" load in order to try compensating for any lack of ability.

Now, getting back to the practice/awareness thing, I have tried (over the years) to learn the schedules my neighbors keep (when they are home, most likely to be out and about, etc.,) and this has helped as well. In addition, when my wife is home, I try maintaining an awareness of which area of the house she resides in. This may sound ridiculous, but in truth it really doesnt take much effort...just a bit of observation. Plus, it only makes sense to be aware of such things when you have a loaded weapon within your home...for whatever reason. So, in essence, depending on the day or time of day, certain areas within my home become more dangerous than others, in terms of possible penetration issues. Now, while Im certainly not obsessed with these things, they do cross my mind on a fairly regular basis. I tend to not rely on mere "guesswork" if I can help it.

Plus, there is that little fact that I would not even consider firing a weapon at an intruder until they are close enough to justify doing so (safely).

Again, I understand all the worries about overpenetration. I mean, no sane person wants to harm an innocent...I certainly dont. But, you also need to consider that the whole point of owning a weapon for HD is to STOP an attack. Therefore, it only makes sense to load with the most powerful ammo you feel confident with and then...practice. It may seem like Im of the Russian roulette mentality, but no. I too have thoughts and concerns about penetration. But, lets face it, my .45 ACP would probably penetrate more than my 12 ga. loaded w/Low Recoil 00 Buckshot. Should I then consider going with a smaller, less penetrative caliber/round? If so, could I rely on such a round to make a one or two shot stop if need be? Round and round it goes...

Now, my ammo selection came about through research as well, but my primary concerns centered around the ability to stop (not to kill) and reliability. In terms of penetration issues, I have found that consistent practice has helped assuage this problem, in my mind at least. Now, I may one day reconsider my current ammo selection for various calibers. But for now, what I use seems to meet my objectives. Each to his/her own.

I'd rather have her confident in carrying and using a shotgun inside the house, with her knowing the limitations of her ammo. The notion that she is better off with her .380 pistol made me chuckle, on box o truth it had about equal penetration as the shot I am initially planning to use.

Agreed. Confidence is completely necessary. Without it, serious mistakes could be made during the worst of times.

Oh, and if your wife feels more comfortable with a handgun, that is all good. As of now, my wife falls within this same category.

Keep in mind, Im not trying to tell you or anyone else what is "right" or "wrong." Im merely giving you an "insight" into my mentality and how I approach HD and my particular caliber/ammo of choice. Its the things I have mentioned which have helped me to somewhat cope with any fears/doubts I may have concerning the harming of innocent lives during a violent HD encounter. It is also these very things that have helped make me feel much more confident and capable should (God forbid) violence ever come knocking.

[Kindrox]

Gryffydd,

I don't want to insult you but I am not reading your posts. All I have seen in the last few I read is that I am wrong. Just saying that without addressing my care abouts is not usefull to me. I'd block you but I guess this forum does have that feature.

For everyone else, I thank you for your knowledge and opinions. I am not married to one solution. I have aquired 00 buckshot, #4 buckshot, #2 shot, #4 shot, and I already had #7.5 birdshot. I also have some of the mini shells for the wife to get comfortable with the mechanics of the 870.

I am going to pattern the different options at 20 feet. I notice the box o truth and the video I saw both generally jump from 00 buckshot to 8 birdshot. Well there are a lot of sizes in between. I want to see what I can find about performance/penetration of both. I might end up doing a little testing of my own, I notice there are lots of 0.99 cents a pound meat deals on big chunks.

Who cares what to miss with?

From what I read in self defense shootings, SD hit rates, while better than the cops (which I think was 11% or so) are still far less than 50%. I expect I'll be moving, the BG will be moving, stuff will happen.

Plus, there is that little fact that I would not even consider firing a weapon at an intruder until they are close enough to justify doing so (safely).

I agree with that. While I think the loadings we end up choosing need to perform well at 20 feet, what percent of SD shootings happen at 10-20 feet versus 0-10?

[Gryffydd]

Kindrox,

I've already given you suggestions about addressing your care.

Oh, and this forum does have a block function... But you'll be using it a lot if you block everyone who disagrees with you, since that's pretty much everybody in this thread.

I am going to pattern the different options at 20 feet. I notice the box o truth and the video I saw both generally jump from 00 buckshot to 8 birdshot. Well there are a lot of sizes in between. I want to see what I can find about performance/penetration of both. I might end up doing a little testing of my own, I notice there are lots of 0.99 cents a pound meat deals on big chunks.

Fantastic! You're on the right path.

[Kindrox]

Personally, I dont want to leave it up to a "lighter" load in order to try compensating for any lack of ability.

A lot has been made of the box o truth results where smaller shot only penetrates a couple pieces of drywall. I think the automatic comparison is that the same will be true of penetration of flesh.

I notice that the first piece of drywall significantly disperses the lighter shot (and buck shot for that matter) into a spray pattern. The small shot, on their own, don’t have the umph to penetrate much further and are stopped quickly.

I don’t think this spray pattern is going to happen in a solid object like a body. I think you will see (assuming the shot enters as a clump) that the shot more or less stays close together, resulting in much deeper penetration in a body than in the drywall dispersal pattern.

I am going to go back and look at gelatin tests to see if this is born out, and if it is, then the question for is, what is the lightest shot that reaches the needed depth in a body, and what is the drywall penetration of that.

I may well find there is a very good happy medium to be found.

[UnclePete]

Birdshot should not be used for defense. Having tested many loads at many ranges on various targets just having fun at informal shooting areas, it will only destroy something solid within about 2-3 feet. It would not penetrate into tissue very far but within muzzle blast distances of 2 feet it will do serious damage.
Within 1-2 feet it would easily blow open a rib cage, or shatter a skull. You can chop 2x4 pieces of wood in half at that range without a hiccup. Back up 1-2 feet more and it just occasionaly blows them in half or takes out large chunks, and back up another 1-2 feet and it just peppers the target with the same load. Huge difference.
Having experience with powerheads, more commonly known as bang guns, I also know a shotgun loaded with anything would be deadly with the muzzle touching the target, but it could blow or bulge the barrel. The muzzle blast combined with any shot within tissue would destroy the tissue. Underwater blanks do as much damage when fired with the muzzle touching as rounds with projectiles do. The muzzle blast does far more damage than the projectile ever could.

The difference 1-2 feet make with birdshot is so huge that it would be foolish to use it for home defense. Once some of the shot leaves the shotcup it ceases to be effective. Prior to that it acts like a sintered slug.
An old poaching trick is to cut the top of a birdshot shell just under the shot most of the way around the shell. When the round was fired the entire top of the shotshell was blown down the barrel, acting more or less like a slug (dangerous with a choke). Those rounds would easily take down deer according to many poachers.
So a plastic slug filled with tiny birdshot acts almost like an actual slug. Similarly a shotcup from 1-2 feet filled with birdshot is not much different.
But from 5 feet away it will just make a light shallow wound. The individual pellets once they leave the shotcup will not have enough individual mass to penetrate enough to reach anything important.

So inches -1 foot away absolutely lethal, 2 feet still devastating, 3 feet may or may not work. 5-10 feet won't stop anyone determined to shoot back.
So birdshot is reliably effective from about 1 yard.
Do you want to limit yourself to 1 yard?

Great post, Zoogster.

[KBintheSLC]

Gryffydd

I've been noticing your responses lately.

removed by moderator

I wonder if your mighty words would be so harsh in person. Unlikely.

Do us a favor, dull the edge on you little cat claws a bit... you are bound to get your point across better with less insult and abrasion.

[Gryffydd]

The fact that birdshot underpenetrates in flesh as well as wall boards is already well known. This is well traveled ground.

Oh I forgot, he sticks his fingers in his ears, closes his eyes and yells " lalalalalala" whenever he sees my posts.

[JShirley]

I've heard a lot over the years about how incredibly powerful a shotgun loaded with absolutely anything was at close range. This began with my father, who attempted to demonstrate by shooting a decaying tree at a distance of about 3 feet.

I was under-impressed by the result.

Look, it's easy enough. Get some gallon jugs, or cheat and just buy the cheapest 1 gallon jugs of water you can find. After you've patterned your load, line up the jugs and shoot them. 2 jugs is not enough penetration. More than 5 is too much. If you're concerned about overpenetration, stopping in the third should be "just right", though on the shallow side, as suggested by most experts.

Too easy.

If you want to get slightly more complicated, cover the line with a flannel shirt, old BDUs, or a light jacket. Set the jugs out at about 7 yards, and hit 'em.

The results may surprise you. Or, you can talk a lot about it here. The latter seems to be the preferred method for lots of folk on the net.

Additional advice if you want it: using light dove loads instead of mini-shells will not only be less expensive, but it's also likely to make your wife's early experiences with a shotgun less frustrating. Mini-shells frequently malfunction in repeating shotguns: they're really only (barely) useful in singles or doubles.

John

[RSVP2RIP]

What would you say is a required depth to reach vitals. I know for a knife it is 4", but would you trust a self defence round that only penetrated 4" in balistic geletin? I want something that goes 12" at least. So does the FBI and they are the ones using 4 buck! (or at least did at one time)

[KBintheSLC]

double posted

[Gryffydd]

I've been noticing your responses lately.

edited
I've been noticing yours lately as well. You complain every time a decent debate gets going. ;)

I wonder if your words mighty would be so harsh in person. Unlikely.
My words would be the same. I expect people to defend their positions the same way I expect to have to defend mine. Whether they would be perceived as being as harsh or not, who knows? If they can't debate the subject without getting offended, oh well.

Do us a favor, dull the edge on you little cat claws a bit... you are bound to get your point across better with less insult and abrasion.
Where is the ad hominem in my posts? If somebody has so internalized their feelings for birdshot that they're personally offended by me saying it's a terrible idea for defense I can't exactly be blamed for that.

[Kindrox]

What would you say is a required depth to reach vitals.

I am something like 9 inches deep. Where I live I don't have to worry about heavy clothing. I guess you would have to dig up the FBI's reasons for 12" - I am sure they published the reasons somewhere.

[JShirley]

Law enforcement may have different needs than the typical homeowner, who stereotypically takes the "back against the wall" shot against an advancing intruder.

Law enforcement, OTOH, may need to make a crossbody shot, or fire through automobile glass. Both of these circumstances warrant deeper penetration. Personally, in a purely defensive load, I'll take anything that penetrates between 7" (with massive tissue damage) and 15" or so.

J

[Extremely Pro Gun]

#8 birdshot

[RSVP2RIP]

You offer a reasonable retort, but it can not ever be concieved, that you may have to make a cross body shot? Even in the defense of another in the home? I feel I have to prepare for the worst to an extent...

[Gryffydd]

Also, when someone is attacking you there's a decent chance they'll have their arms in front. Once you count in the thickness of their arm, with its bones and quite possibly sleeves you're getting up there. The Miami shootout would have probably ended much sooner if some of the FBI's shots hadn't struck the arms of their targets first.

[Kindrox]

that you may have to make a cross body shot?

If you get hit in the arm(s) with a shotgun to the extent that they take all the lead/massive tissue damage, is the arm or arm(s) functional at that point? If not you have basically won the fight unless the dude is really good with his feet :)

prepare for the worst to an extent

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

[Kindrox]

using light dove loads instead of mini-shells will not only be less expensive

I got'em just as the lowest recoil baseline. I expect I'll have to load them one at a time, but it will give her good practice on aim, heft, pulling the trigger, ect. I read that on the 870 they won't feed via the pump. She got most of the way through natrual childbirth, you'd think a shotgun shouldn't bother her.

[inSight-NEO]

I may well find there is a very good happy medium to be found.

For me, ad nauseum, I have found such a round in low recoil 00 Buck. Now, Im not an expert by any means and will be the first to admit this. Of course, from what I gather, even the low recoil stuff can tear through walls. But, compared to most of my handgun loads (which, to be honest, are of the less penetrative rounds), the low recoil buckshot is actually safer...for the lack of a better term.

But, I would be interested in your findings. Additional info (if good info) is always better than the lack thereof.

At the end of it all, as I mentioned earlier, I keep a weapon around (for HD) in order to STOP a threat...not to wound, give second chances to, not to scare or even to kill. Hence...my preference for the "heavier" loads. Beyond this, I practice and practice some more. Yes, I could miss. But, then again...I could hit (with consistent practice, the odds increase in my favor); and if I do hit, I want it to count.

My life and the life of my lovely bride could one day depend on it.

[RSVP2RIP]

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

Ask yourself this: Would you trade the life of a loved one for the life of a neighbor?

I don't have the answer, it's not fun to think about, but it is something you have to ask youself.

There is the iminent threat of life to a loved one vs. the possibillity of somehow harming another...

[JShirley]

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

In GA, anyone who does not live in a domicile, who enters by force, may be shot. <------- (That's a period.)

I'm not in a hurry to kill anyone, despite the 6 billion who inhabit the planet. But if the "neighbor kid" breaks in, he's welcome to a load of shot or a slug in COM just like any other threat. (It's also legal in GA to use lethal force to prevent a violent felony, and if the intruder has the means to break in, he of course has the means to commit a violent felony.) If you don't secure your doors (passive defensive measures), why are we even bothering to talk about active defensive measures like firearms?

J

[Gryffydd]

Judging by his previous posts, his concern is a missed round traveling through any interior walls, exterior walls including siding and insulation, the neighbor's exterior walls, and hitting an innocent neighbor kid in his room.

[Kindrox]

J,

I ment killing a neighbor kid that is in his own house. I asked the question because preparing for the worst, to me, is a balancing act of defending myself and sending lead into a neighbor house and killing a bystander.

[Gryffydd]

There is the iminent threat of life to a loved one vs. the possibillity of somehow harming another...
Exactly. In the event you have to fire in self defense inside your home, if your round fails to stop the attacker you have a very, very high chance of losing your own life or the lives of loved ones.
In the event you fire an effective round at an intruder it must miss, AND it must travel through all of your walls AND it must make it through the neighbor's exterior walls AND someone must just happen to be in that exact spot at that exact time.

So in the event that you actually have to fire you have a very high probability of death or worse for your family and realistically a very low probability of harming an innocent. Particularly if you've planned your defenses ahead of time.

[JShirley]

"Don't miss."

I mean, seriously. You would just about have to WORK to miss an adult human inside a house with a shoulder-mounted weapon. Especially if you've gone the barricade in room/wait for 911 response route. If you can't hit something standing in your bedroom doorway when you've got your longarm resting on the bed, and already sighted in...you don't need to be using a firearm.

That may sound harsh, but there it is. You might consider a Taser. I hear they rarely overpenetrate a threat. :D

Oh, incidentally, "the worst" would be a gang coming into my house to kill my children and rape and kill my wife in front of me. Maybe we have different ideas about "worst".

John

[Kindrox]

You would just about have to WORK to miss an adult human inside a house with a shoulder-mounted weapon

I don't know what to say about that, never having been in a situation. All I can say is many other people have been, and in general miss more than they hit. I think I’d be a bit conceited to plan on

If you can't hit something standing in your bedroom doorway when you've got your longarm resting on the bed, and already sighted in...you don't need to be using a firearm.

John, that seems like a narrow limitation - only use your gun when you are 100% sure of a hit. I for one don't know where I'll be when I realize I need the use of a gun (I got one for each side of the house). I don't know how many of them there will be, I don't know exactly where my wife and child will be, I don't know if I will be better barricading up and waiting for the cops, or if I'll be in a situation where I need to move.

Planning for the worst, I expect I’ll be moving and they will be moving. That seems like a recipe for a miss or two.

Maybe we have different ideas about "worst".

I am glad to know you don't live next to me, actually. I don't believe those are my only two options.

[JShirley]

I don't mean to sound arrogant. There are lots of more skilled shooters here than I am. But I have never had a complete miss on a target at close range with a longarm* in the last 20 years. This includes literally thousands of rounds fired from carbine at 50 meters and less. There is no reason to believe that I'll suddenly be unable to make easier hits than I've been making regularly since 2002 (when I was active infantry).

So...if you were my neighbor...I think you'd be in pretty good shape. ;)

I believe, if you are able to isolate what weapons have been used in defensive shooting, you will find that the vast majority of those misses happened with handguns.



*I have missed one deer that I led too much, and small, fast moving game

I don't believe those are my only two options.

Let me explain something. "Worst", by definition, means it don't get "no badder". Bad as it gets. No worse. Who said anything about options? Overpenetration and hurting a noninvolved party would be tragic (unlikely as it is, especially if you HIT your TARGET), but, friend, there are far worse things.