M1 Carbine as a Scout-type weapon


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Sven
October 31, 2003, 10:04 PM
Was wondering: How does the M1 Carbine stack up to Jeff Cooper's rules for the "Scout" concept.

Courtesty Futo Ino on another post, the rules are:


*ALL* of the following features are OPTIONAL, NOT mandatory:

1. Reserve iron sights
2. Detachable mag
3. Stripper-clip feeding ability
4. Bipod

What is NOT optional; IS mandatory, are these features:

5. Weight with scope and sling: Under 7.7 lbs (3.5 kg). -
6. Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
7. Barrel length: 19 inches
8. Optics: Forward and low mounted, LER, 2x - 3x.
9. Magazine-fed and turnbolt action
10. Fast loop-up type sling (Ching or CW style)
11. Caliber: .308Win or 7mm-08 (or .243 for frail individuals).
12. Capable of of 2MOA or better accuracy at 200 yards.


I've found one actually CAN charge a carbine from a stripper clip - there is no guide so you have to man-handle the ammo in there, but it can be done. Better yet, have some 30 rounders* with fresh springs and you are set.

Falls way short on caliber... also, accuracy might be an issue, but some report good groups.

With a forward-mounted sight such as an Aimpoint or a longish eye relief 'scout' scope, I think the M1 Carbine will serve as a pretty cool little 'mini-Scout rifle'.

-

Shameless plug: if you are interested in a scope mount for your M1 carbine, then you may wish to get in on the group buy we secured for the new UltimAK M1 Carbine forward mounts. Click the image for the thread.


http://www.ultimak.com/products/30CarbAimpoint.jpg

M1 Carbine Forward Mount - Group Buy (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=577209#post577209)

My plan is to use my UltimAK mount for a Leopold 2.5 x 28 Intermediate eye relief scope, on 1" QRW rings. Will report how it shoots. Should have everything pretty soon.

-

* - where allowed by law

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Mannlicher
October 31, 2003, 10:09 PM
The M1 Carbine fails totally as a Cooper Style Scout rifle, based on caliber. As a Scout STYLE rifle, for fun and plinking, it is ok, but the .30 Carbine round is not up to snuff in the Scout Rifle concept.

Sven
October 31, 2003, 10:13 PM
How about on squirrels?

:evil: :D

CaesarI
November 1, 2003, 02:17 AM
Lacks range, and power. This makes it less versatile, and therefore bad. Wouldn't even count as a pseudo-scout.

From a more practical standpoint, as an anti-personel weapon, it is about as powerful as a pistol-caliber carbine when loaded with the best ammunition available for this cartridge (110gr SP). It might have greater range than a pistol caliber carbine, but it does less damage then either a good .223, or a good .308

The Scout should be capable of taking targets with a single well placed shot. One could argue CNS hits only with such a weapon, but this isn't practical.

-Morgan

son of a gun
November 1, 2003, 04:03 AM
:banghead: Check out the ultimate Bastardized M1 Carbine:cuss:

http://www.bombshock.com/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=11;t=6643 http://www.keepshooting.com/images/m1carbineguntext.jpg

jercamp45
November 1, 2003, 07:15 AM
No, it fails for Cooper's general purpose all around scout rifle concept!
However, it is not a bad urban, hit and git little carbine. Needs to be stoked with the Hollow/soft points for maximal effectiveness on thin-skinned bipedals. I have limited experience with it, but the few I have fired were accurate...but the 30 rounders I had access to were unreliable. I'd stick with the 15 rounders!
All things considered, I'd prefer an AR or AK, but if it is all you got...then use it well! I think it can be quite useful for younger shooter's as it is light, throws a decent sized bullet with low recoil. Not really pwerful enough for any hunting of medium to large game, barely potent enough for humans...
But far better than throwing rocks..........
Jercamp45

MP-44
November 1, 2003, 08:36 AM
How about a Saiga Scout? Other than the forward mount, left un-modified. Doesn't fit Col. Coopers criteria but would take care of all the game in my area (150lb deer is a big one around here). Short, light, detacable 10rd mags, 30/30 power. It would be even better in a 7.62X39 Improved ( does that wildcat exist?) Does Ultimak(sp?) make forward mounts for the Saiga?

The last I checked there was a dealer in my area who sold 7.63x39 Saigas with 16" barrels for $179. So the price for experimenting is cheap.

Art Eatman
November 1, 2003, 10:19 AM
I've thought about this a bit, overnight. Looks to me that if one recognizes the limits of the Carbine cartridge, but is "working" in short-vision country (forests/swampy land), it would suffice. Eastern U.S., okay; the open country of the west, nokay. I guess I'm thinking of some of my hunting in the Appalachicola River bottom country, with wild pigs and deer wandering by within ten to twenty yards...

Poachers take deer with .22 rimfires. If you're using a Scout Rifle as a scout's rifle within the context of "scouting", seasons and legal hours are not important.

$0.02,

Art

Atlas Shrug
November 1, 2003, 11:11 AM
First, the short answer - not close.

Now the longer one.

I'm a HUGE advocate of the scout concept. I have the Steyr version and love it. I've played around with various pseudo scouts and many have great utility. Also, I LOVE the M1 carbine.

As others have said, it all comes down to usage. For me, the M1 carbine shines when used as:

-a house rifle
-a short range urban rifle (replaces the AR-15 carbine family for such use, IMHO)
-an around the farm rifle in thick brush
-a rifle for use when getting in/out of vehicles a lot (driving around farm, etc.)

Thus for me rifle-wise, here's a rough list of what I use:

When I go hunting or on a deliberate trek, I carry my Steyr Scout.

When I'm walking in the woods and working (trimming brush, posting No Hunting signs, etc.) I usually carry a rough pseudo scout (M98 variety usually). Especially in the fall and winter.

When I'm doing the above in summer or through rough brush, I'll carry the M1 carbine due to it's size - won't hang up on brush so badly.

When I'm driving on or around land posting signs and checking on things (as I'll do a fair bit this weekend), the carbine is great to have handy in the truck.

Always, these are combined with a full bore pistol on my belt, and sometimes a .32 in my pocket. The M1 carbine is thus the MINIMUM rifle to tote around, mainly done so when anything larger creates logistical problems. It's also worth noting that the land I'm doing this on is Eastern Piedmont land, thus lots of rolling hills, thick brush, thick woods, and few long views.

As mentioned, they can make dandy house guns. I still prefer a combat set up 870, but do give the _properly_ set up M1 carbine a strong nod.

*** To me, properly set up means:

-15 rd mags only (I don't trust the 30s)
-110 gr. soft point ammo (The folks at Georgia Arms make decent ammo w/Rem 110 SPs)
-stock sights (I'll allow the rail that Sven is getting SO LONG AS QR rings are used)
-if possible, a removable light mount (when used as a house gun)
-a decent carry sling
-if possible, an M1A1 paratrooper stock (these are VERY handy and strong enough)

No, it does not have the power that I'd like. But it beats the hell out of ONLY a pistol. Even if it's effectively a strong pistol cartridge, it's much easier to hit with than ANY pistol, especially out past spitting distance.

Just remember, the main places where it shines are where you would leave a heavier/large rifle and go with just a pistol for convenience. Instead, ALWAYS use the M1 Carbine as your minimum rifle. As I've said in a different context before:

"The M1 carbine is the rifle that I carry when I'm not carrying a rifle." TM 2003

Just like my Keltec P-32 is:

"The P-32 is the pistol that I carry when I'm not carrying a pistol." TM 2001

With this mindset, I think that the M1 carbine can be viewed in the proper context.

4v50 Gary
November 1, 2003, 11:37 AM
JAT - just another toy. That's justification enough for me. Can we get a flashlight mount for the bayonet lug?

Keith
November 1, 2003, 01:38 PM
9. Magazine-fed and turnbolt action

Where did Cooper ever say the rifle had to be a turnbolt?

Is this something new?

Keith

CaesarI
November 1, 2003, 05:10 PM
He didn't Keith. Merely that at the time he was concocting the idea, there exists no semi-auto's light and compact enough. He's stated explicitly that if one could pull it off w/ a semi-auto and meet weight + length requirements, it was A-OK.

Those present agreed that the semi-automatic principle is a good one if it can be refined to a point where it is suitable for scout needs, but that that point has not been reached as yet. -Proceedings of the First Scout Rifle Conference (http://home.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutconference.html)

If a semi-automatic action were made which was sufficiently compact and otherwise acceptable, it should certainly be considered, but at this time there is no such action available. - To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth

The person who listed that as a requirement was wrong, however that doesn't mean the M1 is even close to acceptable. The terminal performance is on par with a pistol, and even then, only with the best loads.

-Morgan

Keith
November 1, 2003, 06:17 PM
He didn't Keith. Merely that at the time he was concocting the idea, there exists no semi-auto's light and compact enough. He's stated explicitly that if one could pull it off w/ a semi-auto and meet weight + length requirements, it was A-OK.

Actually, I was thinking of the Browning BLR lever action, which is basically a Scout right off the shelf. Detachable mags, easily makes weight, etc. I don't know why Cooper or anyone else seeking a scout overlooks the BLR.

Keiht

Jiles111
November 2, 2003, 07:30 AM
I use my .30 Carbine as a scout weapon. When we go deer hunting we have about 1 section that we have to walk around. It is very hilly and there are many short and loooong shots. I love to carry the carbine because I can carry it ALL DAY with out my back hurting. Everyone else in my group are complaining by about 10 in the morning about how bad thier back hurts.

About accuracy: 2 weeks ago we were getting all the guns ready for a brand new season. We started out getting everything shooting good groups at 100 yards. After we do this we go out to 300 yards (laser rangefinder) and shoot at several plywood cutouts that are identical size to a normal deer (around here at least). With the carbine (open sights) I can get all my shots within 3 inches of the "Kill Zone". This is without a bench, only propping on a bush or tree. The little gun also does well on dispersing the Yotes (its main goal during deer season).

Excuse the mispellings. I kaint speel!! ;)

http://17hmr.net/guns/carbine.jpg

Keith
November 2, 2003, 03:13 PM
A carbine is not appropriate for shooting deer! Maybe at close range from a tree stand (with good soft points) it would be OK, but what you're describing is just wrong on a whole bunch of levels!

Shooting deer at long range with a pistol cartridge is ... well, I'll bite my tongue here and not say what I think of you.

Keith

Jiles111
November 2, 2003, 03:49 PM
I am not using it as a Deer Gun for one thing (It is my Varmint gun). I said I never shot a Deer out at that range with that gun (although I have shot them before with it at closer ranges), and another thing is that the .30 Carbine cartridge came out before the pistols adapted to the cartridge.

=)

Keith
November 2, 2003, 04:00 PM
If you're not shooting deer, then my apologies for misunderstanding.

It IS a pistol cartridge! It was designed as an alternative to the 1911 handgun, not as an alternative to a battle rifle.

Keith

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