My Idea For Tactical Pistols - What do you think?


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EOC_Jason
September 23, 2009, 10:12 AM
I do a lot of target shooting with older .22 pistols. Just about all of them have weights on the barrel, to balance things out and reduce muzzle flip.

A lot of modern pistols are made from alloys & polymers to reduce their weight (yeah, I know I'm stating the obvious). I also notice a lot have those accessory rail's.

I was thinking one day, gee wouldn't it be cool if someone made weights that could clamp on the rails to add some additional weight on the front? I'm not talking about a full blown weight that wraps around the front of the barrel like a HK Match pistol (at least not initially). I'm talking about something simple, kind of like a pack of gum shaped.

I looked high and low on the internet and only came up with one weight for a glock. Other than that I do not think they exist. But I did find a lot of discussions about people talking how the extra weight from a flashlight really helps (in their opinion).

I talked to a couple guys at my local gun range, they didn't seem to think it was a worthwhile idea. Their argument was, "Since you wouldn't use the weight (probably) when carrying the gun around, what would be the point in training with it?"

My point to counter that was a lot of people just "target shoot" for fun, not everyone comes to shoot for self defense or tactical training.


So... what do you guys think? Do you own any pistols that have a rail? Do you think it would help? Would you ever try mounting a weight on it if it was readily available and inexpensive?

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Owen
September 23, 2009, 10:32 AM
it might be ok for just mesing around at the range. Many of the competitions where service pistols would be used specifically prohibit adding weight.

As far as target pistols goes, the muzzle weight thing has gone by the wayside. The trend (at least a few years ago) was to get the guns as light as possible, so you wouldn't get as tired holding them up. I've seen a lot of M41 with most of the barrel milled away, the euro target pistols are mostly aluminum, and so on.

Mike OTDP
September 23, 2009, 10:42 AM
Actually, most of the top-end European target pistols have weights. They try to whittle the empty weight down so you can ballast the gun to adjust weight and balance without taking the total weight too high.

cane
September 23, 2009, 10:59 AM
Something like this? http://www.shootersxchange.com/detail.cfm?recordID=75021

Owen
September 23, 2009, 11:52 AM
True Mike, there are weights available, but i think its along the lines of the fishing lures aren't for catching fish, they're for catching fisherman.

The guys I watched, usually took all the weights off...

Sam1911
September 23, 2009, 01:46 PM
My point to counter that was a lot of people just "target shoot" for fun, not everyone comes to shoot for self defense or tactical training.
Obviously this would make it hard/impossible to holster the gun which kind of ruins the purpose of a handgun to begin with, but it could appeal to those folks who do bring their guns to the range in boxes or pistol rugs and shoot at set distances from static positions. Hey, in some states that kind of behavior is required by law, so who are we to judge?

Anyway, it would be kind of a weird "anti-niche" item, specifically for those people who buy those sorts of guns but don't compete with them (no competition styles I can think of which use that kind of weapon allow that sort of attachment) and don't carry them for defensive purposes (won't fit in a holster and who'd want to carry a heavier gun?), but who shoot "seriously" enough to appeciate the modest amount of recoil mitigation such a device would provide. Surely there are such folks, but how does one market to these folks?

"Anti-Practical & Anti-Tactical -- Worried about your precision while you're just blowing through some ammo? Try the new "Pistol Anchor!" Now in pink polka dot."

So... what do you guys think? Do you own any pistols that have a rail?

Yes.

Do you think it would help?

It would definitely help with recoil control.

Would you ever try mounting a weight on it if it was readily available and inexpensive?

No. Not ever. My handguns are in holsters for defensive carry and/or are on the range for practice and competition. I want them to feel and react the same way every time I pull the trigger so I wouldn't add anything I can't use for my two primary purposes.

-Sam

P.S. -- fishing lures aren't for catching fish, they're for catching fisherman On second thought...they'd sell. Heck, Ka-Bar now makes a clip-on pistol bayonet, right? Surely there's a market.

hotshotshoting
September 23, 2009, 02:24 PM
biggest problem is that in a combat gun adding weight to the front of the gun slows your slide velocity because the firearm performs different than originally intended..

not a problem for a range gun, but as for a tactical application i dont think its very feasible..

as for muzzle flip i would recommend changing grip and stance if you can learn how to control your firearm in its current configuration its better tactically.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
September 23, 2009, 02:56 PM
the weight would be on the rail not the slide, so the slide would be unaffected. I can't see any reason this would be a good idea, but I said the same about crocs, spoilers 3 feet tall on road cars, and gold chains heavy enough to anchor a freighter worn on the neck. It's probably that I am stupid so go forth with your weight adding device and make a fortune!

hotshotshoting
September 23, 2009, 03:01 PM
add weight to any part of the gun and it will function at a different slide velocity period!

if you have a high speed camera you can test this yourself :)

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
September 23, 2009, 03:09 PM
are you suggesting adding weight to the frame will impact the slide velocity enough to impede the firing of the weapon? I don't follow your logic on that one, I add 180 pounds of american beef when I fire any gun and most of the time they seem to work alright. The frame is supposed to stay still when you fire the gun, thats why you hold it. Adding weight would only help it to hold more still hence the OP's idea. Can you explain why the slide speed would change adding weight to the frame, because I can't see why it would.

hotshotshoting
September 23, 2009, 03:18 PM
so what your saying is that you hold the gun perfectly still and it does not move at all?

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
September 23, 2009, 03:32 PM
Thats the general idea.
I know what you are going to say next, something about recoil forces move the gun, and i'll agree they do, they also move my hands which are 2 pounds each, maybe more. So adding 4 pounds does nothing to the function of the gun, take it to the next extreme testing a handgun in a Ransom Rest something design to hold a gun 100% still they still work even adding those massive clamps to the side of the weapon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0E7qUT-k_M . Adding 8oz, a pound, even 10 pounds to the frame and only the frame will not make a difference. I am interested in your argument because it would change the application of rail accessories. Do you have the high speed footage you mentioned in your previous post?

EOC_Jason
September 23, 2009, 04:10 PM
Cane - Sort of. I'm talking about pistols that have picatinny rails (or custom accessory rails) that are on the bottom side of the frame in front of the trigger. Like where you see flashlights & lasers mounted. P.S. I have that exact same High Standard, mine has more weight on the barrel though. Fun gun to shoot.

I'm not going to argue the point on the weights limiting holster choices, I'm sure it will prevent some usage. But I've seen plenty of holsters accommodate flashlights and since my weight idea would be about the same size or smaller. But again, I wouldn't want to have to carry a gun around all day with extra weight just because. But that is not my intended purpose for these.

Thanks for whoever mentioned above about weights not being allowed in some competitions. That is something to think about.

As someone else mentioned, yes most guns these days are going very light-weight. You don't often see something new as heavy and beefy as an old all-steel 1911. They are all alloys & polymers these days. Hence why I was thinking how nice it might be to add a little extra weight to the end of the barrel (for target use).

My collection of guns, I have a pretty good divide on what I use as conceal carry / defensive pistols, and what I have that are strictly as target pistols. There's a lot more than just a simple weight, things like the over-sized grips with thumb rests, scopes, hi-viz sites, and such that just wouldn't make a pistol practical for every day carry use. I realize a lot of people do not have such a collection, some people their conceal carry pistol might be the only firearm they own.

I just kind of envisioned it for "target practice" type use, or as a possible training aid to help a new person get used to a gun and tone down the muzzle flip some. Like the other week when I went to the range with one of my good friends. He hadn't been in a while and I let him shoot my Beretta 92FS. His shots were all over the place on the target. I let him shoot my Ruger GP-100 for a while since it has a longer (and heavier) barrel. After that he shot the Beretta again and the difference was night and day. He told me the revolver gave him the confidence again to shoot a regular pistol because it didn't have as much recoil or jump as the Beretta.

He makes a good point in that shooting is mostly a mental process. I notice a lot of people seem to be afraid of the recoil and if you watch closely you can see them try to compensate by jerking the gun down every so slightly right before the round is fired (especially noticeable when the chamber is empty).

Justin
September 23, 2009, 04:24 PM
Some of the newer European target pistols now include internal systems for dampening recoil.

hhmorant
September 23, 2009, 04:58 PM
If you want to add some weight, why not just put a light on the rail? At least you'd have some added functionality.

On a pure target gun, go for it - take any advantage you can get under the rules.

Nicodemus38
September 23, 2009, 09:12 PM
instead of buying the super lightweight alloy and plastic guns, and then trying to figure out ways to make them steadier and take up more recoil energy, why not go out and seek thy self an all steel handgun?
its easier to spend 600 on a steel handgun then it is to spend 800 on a plastic and aluminum gun and then spend 300 tinkering around to make it heavier under the barrel. youll save 2-500 in ammo money.

David E
September 23, 2009, 09:21 PM
If you want a gun that doesn't kick for mere recreational use, buy another gun.

If you do have a gun with a rail and want to find a weight that'll work, there are several weights out there that fit and work fine. They're called "Weapon Mounted Flashlights."

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