Shooting my Kahr PM9 Low & Left


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trimore
September 23, 2009, 12:17 PM
I have put 200 rounds through my new to me PM9. Virtually all are 3-6" low and 3-5" left. All of this is at 5-10 yards.

I had the range officer shoot it to see if he had the same issue and he was dead on with 3 shots. So it seems that the issue is me and not the gun.

Also, I tried point shooting after the range officer shot it and I hit the bullseye twice in 6 rounds and the other shots were pretty close (not low and left for sure).

So at least I know I can point and shoot it well. Also, I have a new Ruger LCP that I am shooting at the same distance and am not shooting low and left with it.

Got any ideas?

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TheBill
September 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
Whats the recoil difference between the two guns? What about the difference in grip while shooting (as far as comfort)?

Is your first shot more accurate than the following?

Guns and more
September 23, 2009, 12:33 PM
Low and left is always trigger control. I had someone tell me to put just the pad of my finger on the trigger, not the joint. He also recommended the "cup and saucer" grip where my support hand is under my grip hand, thumbs forward.
The Kahr has a long, heavy trigger, so it is difficult to be smooth. (I have one).

ScareyH22A
September 23, 2009, 02:32 PM
I disagree with the "difficult to be smooth" comment. It's long and slightly heavy but VERY smooth so it's easy to shoot smoothly.

jocko
September 23, 2009, 02:59 PM
trimore and I will bet u a $100 u are also right handed, which is so typical of groups shot by a RH shooter of Kahrs. I am a lefty and my shots when badly made are always low and right. Kahr triggers are super smooth but loooooong as u well know. 3/8" trigger pull so until you get the hand of the trigger expect low and lefts. Kahr triggers are very smooth, no staging on kahr triggers...
More rounds down range will bring it back to center. Don't go banging that rear sight as more than likely it won't move anyways and u end up ruining a good sight but as you shoot more your groups will move right. Up and downs can be corrected by changing your sight picture and again rely on that front sight as ur reference point. See it clearly and the rest will take care of itself. I have 24,850 ruond sthrogh my PM9 and I stilld on't shoot it as good as my G19 either but two different guns with two totally different trigger systems. but the pM9 rinde sin my front pocket 24/7 while the G19 stay home.

I shoot the PM9 well enough to do the job though. so

Point, game, match!!

Mikhail Weiss
September 23, 2009, 03:02 PM
You're right-handed, aren't you? Sounds like sympathetic grip reflex. That is, as you squeeze the trigger, you end up also squeezing the fingers you've got wrapped around the grip. This most typically causes the shots to drop low and left. If you extend your shooting hand, index finger pointing straight out like a barrel, three fingers very loosely curled, then curl those three fingers, you'll see your index finger pull low and left. Put an unloaded gun in hand to try this while dry firing, you'll likely see the same thing; the front site will dip low and left. The trick is to isolate trigger-finger movement from everything else, which usually can be accomplished simply by gripping the pistol tighter.

That said, yes, if you put too much finger on the trigger, you may end up pushing it sideways while pulling the trigger. End result, shots go left. Sometimes down and left. The usually recommended trigger placement for DA pistols and revolvers is with the distal joint (first one of trigger finger) right snuggly up against the side of the trigger – first joint to right side of trigger. Concentrate on pulling straight back while maintaining a firm-enough grip that your grippy fingers don't pull your sights off target.

A little practice, voila, you should improve.

hotshotshoting
September 23, 2009, 03:16 PM
here is the secret! are you ready?



manipulate the trigger to the rear so slowly that you do not know when the firearm is actually going to fire...

once you do that you will see the difference 90% guaranteed

trimore
September 23, 2009, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the suggestions.

Yes, I am right handed.

hotshotshoting
September 23, 2009, 03:58 PM
let me know how the slow thing works !

jocko
September 23, 2009, 07:34 PM
HOTSHOTSHOOTING;: ur right but in real life scenario, that is just not going to happen either. range use, OK but IMO not the correct way to practice YMMV

Sgt. Stiglitz
September 23, 2009, 08:05 PM
Shot the Kahr PM 9 MM for the first time. Factory rounds were Remington Golden Sabres 124 Gr +P. Chrono'd out of the 3" barrel. Top group was the second magazine. Chrono info below, you will be surprised at the results:
The Kahr is real easy to shoot, recoil is NOT a problem even with +P's.:what:
1024 fpshttp://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif
1064
1017
1044
999
1076
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/FirsttwomagazinesKahrPM9MMTopsecond.jpg

Tried some reloads out of the Kahr aslo:
4.5 Grs Unique 124 Gr Lead Round Nose.

1017fps
1077
1003
990
1073
1021
Now 4.5 Grs of Unique is no where near +P so you can see just how down loaded factory ammo is.
Jacket 124 grain Reloads with the same 4.5 grs of Unique ran as follows:

927 fps
964
826
900
884
808
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/SW399MMWilinsonArms22SherryKahrPM9M.jpg
I made up some rounds to shoot out of the Glock with 4 Grs of Unique and a .380 95gr JHP in 9 MM cases for bunnies. They group as one hole at 7 yds. They wont eject, but I dont want them to. They do what they are intended to do nicely! They come out of the Glock about a 1025 fps and mushroom nicely!

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/Glock17Gem-TechTrinity.jpg

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/GlockSuppressed7Yds95GrJHPs4grUniqu.jpg

The Aguila Super Max's came out of the little .22 Sherry, Group of 2 magazines of the Aguila .22 Supers are below the chron data. I really dont like the Aguila.

980 fps
940
995
883
951
992
979
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/WilkinsonArmsSherry2magazines7ydsAq.jpg
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/100_1581.jpg

larryh1108
September 23, 2009, 10:04 PM
My personal experience with the PM9 was initially low and left. I have XL hands and it is trigger control. I found out that, for me, when I shot with the pad on the trigger, I tended to "push" it left and low and when I put the trigger on my first joint it straightened out because I stopped "pushing" it. I actually found dead center by putting the trigger a slight bit off the joint towards the pad. This cured my pushing and now I am dead center. I have to have the trigger on my LCP dead center in the joint because it is a heavy trigger. It helps me squeeze instead of pull. Point shooting is the only way to go with the LCP because in low light there are no sights anyways. I find my PM9 trigger to be as smooth as any gun I shoot and a joy to shoot.

bigfatdave
September 23, 2009, 10:11 PM
Trigger control and recoil anticipation.
I had the same issue, and having my shooting partner mix snap-caps with live rounds in the mag made the recoil anticipation really obvious.
When you can pull the trigger as if it was a snap-cap every time, the grouping will move closer to the POA, and tighten up also.
All you need is snap-caps that are easy to tell apart from real ammo (I like the red plastic ones), a shooting partner to laugh at you jerking the gun around as the trigger breaks, and some range time.

practicaltactical
September 23, 2009, 10:44 PM
If you haven't seen this before it's quite helpful.

http://www.theyfyouatthedrivethru.com/images/public/thr/TargetRightHanded.jpg

and

http://www.theyfyouatthedrivethru.com/images/public/thr/TargetLeftHanded.jpg

you can get the originals for right handed http://www.theyfyouatthedrivethru.com/images/public/thr/TargetRightHanded.pdf or for left handed http://www.theyfyouatthedrivethru.com/images/public/thr/TargetLeftHanded.pdf at either link. Hope that helps and good luck.

larryh1108
September 23, 2009, 11:13 PM
Those are the only targets I shoot at for practice. They are wonderful!

357-8-times
September 24, 2009, 01:21 AM
Hey Sargent, that rabbit is dinner for someone right?

Oddly, at 15yds I was able to shoot the PM9 within a 2-3 inches but I could not get the Kahr P380 on the paper?!

arizona98tj
September 24, 2009, 01:32 AM
HOTSHOTSHOOTING;: ur right but in real life scenario, that is just not going to happen either. range use, OK but IMO not the correct way to practice YMMV

It is, IMO, the correct way to start. As one continues to practice, one picks up the pace a bit. A range timer comes in very handy here. Dial in the par time for your shot and slowly shorten it as your range sessions continue and your control improves. This will develop muscle memory....and at the end, you will be both quick and accurate. Practice is what it is all about, especially when dealing with a handgun that can be more difficult for some to properly control, like the PM9, 2" J-frame, etc. Slow makes for smooth and smooth makes for fast.
YMMV

chris in va
September 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
The trigger takes some getting used to. More of a light, short revolver action. Once you figger it out, the thing is a sweet shooter.

BTW use the crease of your finger, not the pad.

SSN Vet
September 24, 2009, 11:28 AM
Try shooting from an isosceles stance with a two handed grip (wrapping your left fingers over top of your right fingers).

Get a tight grip with the right hand and then relax the hand muscles. Slightly bend your elbows and push out lightly with your right arm while pulling in with the left to create a solid hold on the gun. and make sure you bring the gun up to your line of sight while keeping your chin up.

Don't bend your neck to bring your head down to the LOS... this will make you shoot low

First try using the pad of your finger on the trigger and then try using the first joint on the trigger....stick with whichever one works the best.

Get your site picture and then concentrate on the front sight post... letting the target go slightly out of focus.

Try closing your left eye.... if this helps a lot, you may be left eye dominant.

Then try shooting one handed from the classic bullseye stance (right arm straight out to the side, parallel to your chest and left hand on left hip), and again keep your chin up and bring the weapon up to the LOS.

This advice came to me from the head of security at the near by nuke plant... in 5 min. he helped me immensely and I made more improvement with my small semi-autos that day than in the previous six months.

You will not look like an uber cool T.V. SWAT guy...

you will hit what you're aiming at

good luck

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