Using someone else's CCW


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ZeBool
September 23, 2009, 02:35 PM
My friend recently asked me a good question. He is 20 years old and is an avid/responsible firearms owner. When he turns 21 he fully intends to obtain his ccw and join the ranks of armed citizens. His girlfriend is also an avid shooter, and is one month away from being 21. She too plans to get her ccw, and carry in her purse(which I don't fully agree with). Now, the question that he posed was this: Suppose she is legally carrying the firearm(they decided that s&w model 638 would be a good gun for her) and it is needed for defense. Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? For the record, they both reside in Pennsylvania.

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Norinco982lover
September 23, 2009, 02:44 PM
I don't know if he would be prosecuted...it would just depend on the DA...the situation...too many factors. I honestly would not worry about it.

~Norinco

oneounceload
September 23, 2009, 03:22 PM
As long as HE is not violating CCW laws where he lives, the act of firing in self defense is not relevant - think of the stories in the news where some young kid fires a gun to protect his mom or whatever...IF the use of deadly force was justified, then so be it. Civil issues later notwithstanding.

mikie
September 23, 2009, 03:26 PM
The question at hand is: Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? If he was, then whats the point of her going through the CCW process? Me possessing a valid drivers license, does not allow my friend who doesn't to slide over and legally start driving my car. Licenses are valid for the person who's name appears on them.

ZeBool
September 23, 2009, 03:30 PM
That was my thinking, and in fact the actual example I used when he initially asked me. I wonder if there is precendent for something like this?

j-easy
September 23, 2009, 03:31 PM
I would hope that this is more of a last ditch scenario, it doesn't sound like a very solid self-defense plan. If she is going to carry than she should practice until she is a decent shot and is confident in her abilities, rather than relying on trying to get the gun out of a purse and then handing it off to another person.

Vonderek
September 23, 2009, 03:32 PM
Can someone legally use someone else's legally concealed handgun to defend themselves from death or grave bodily injury? I would say technically yes (if the shooter is not a felon) but if you are going to go through legal and mental gymnastics when the SHTF you will probably wind up dead anyway.

The only way I can remotely see your scenario in a realistic sense is if your friend's girlfriend is incapacitated...if she is injured or otherwise physically unable to draw and shoot the gun herself. Then yes, the boyfriend should draw or pick up the gun and do what he has to do to protect both of them.

If he is thinking about her carrying it and then tossing it to him or somesuch then I think it's a terrible plan.

rbernie
September 23, 2009, 03:33 PM
He is legally allowed to own and use a firearm. She is legally allowed to own, use, and carry a firearm.

I wouldn't want to be the test case, but if he needed to use the firearm but was not the individial carrying it, I cannot see how the law could make a case of it.

Zak Smith
September 23, 2009, 03:34 PM
CCW/CWP = permit for carrying concealed, usually the act of firing in self defense is covered under other, orthogonal statues. With this in mind, I don't think he would run afoul of CCW laws; however, there may be other state laws that come up.

j-easy
September 23, 2009, 03:34 PM
The question at hand is: Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? If he was, then whats the point of her going through the CCW process? Me possessing a valid drivers license, does not allow my friend who doesn't to slide over and legally start driving my car. Licenses are valid for the person who's name appears on them.
I think it depends on the situation, if he would need to use her gun to protect his life after she somehow became incapacitated then he would probably be ok, just like if you and your buddy without a drivers license were out driving somewhere and you had a heart attack, I doubt he would get arrested for driving you to the hospital without a license.

james2133
September 23, 2009, 03:35 PM
Lets just say she is shot and bleeding out (that removes the pride BS) the CCW allows to carry concealed and if he is firing her weapon that she was carrying while she was bleeding then that seems to me like it is a case of justifiable shoot not CCW. In such a case it would most likely fall under self defense and it would all be good... Anything is possible and it is always good to know(or have some idea) what the laws are if you are going to carry a weapon. To me this is not the plan A to SD but more as a back up and it seems he was just questioning the legality.

oneounceload
September 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
The question at hand is: Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? If he was, then whats the point of her going through the CCW process? Me possessing a valid drivers license, does not allow my friend who doesn't to slide over and legally start driving my car. Licenses are valid for the person who's name appears on them.

Except, in THIS scenario, the license is for CARRYING, not USING.....as long as HE is not carrying, but winds up using her gun to defend themselves, then it is not an issue from that standpoint (civil issues later notwithstanding)

rbernie
September 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
Just a reminder, folk - this was a legal question and not a Strategies & Tactics question:

Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack?Y'all who have issue with this can leave the snark at home - it has no place in this thread or on this board.

NavyLCDR
September 23, 2009, 05:28 PM
The legal age to open carry in PA is 18. Open carry is permitted in PA without a license except in Philly and inside a vehicle. I don't see a problem unless the boyfriend put the gun in his pocket or got into a vehicle after the shooting.

CCWB
September 23, 2009, 06:11 PM
Ask a lawyer after you do your research.

Oyeboten
September 23, 2009, 06:19 PM
The moment she hands him the Revolver, it is no longer 'conealed'.


So long as he was not carrying it concealed, there would be no violation far as I can imagine.


The phrase "Using someone else's CCW however...does not desribe what the OP isasking.


If the female is using her CCW, and, she hands her Gun to her non CCW friend...she has been using her CCW, not him.

EOC_Jason
September 23, 2009, 06:20 PM
As other's have stated, you would be in the act of self-defense and since the gun is out in the open it is no longer really "concealed". I think it would fall under a different set of statues.

Call your local police department, they could probably tell you a definitive answer.

Sam1911
September 23, 2009, 06:42 PM
As others have said, if there is an event unfolding in which lethal force is justified, he has just as much right to shoot as she does, but, unless she's down and unable to retrieve and use her gun, I'm not sure I see the point of the question.

Surely she isn't practicing to, in the event of a violent attack, draw the gun and hand it to him!? :eek: That would be an intensely poor strategy.

Her gun, her draw, her shot. There's no where in there for "now hand it to your boyfriend!" Horrible, horrible idea. If she isn't planning, willing, and able to shoot to defend her life in the moment of need, then she should not have the gun at all.

Swift, decisive, explosive, and violent reaction to a threat of lethal force does not have room for, "Here's my gun... shoot the bad guy, honey!" :banghead:

-Sam

Schofield3
September 23, 2009, 06:55 PM
Tell them to simplify matters................
What really counts? think for a moment..........

Say they were to get into any god-given situation that puts either one or both their lives at rist; what matters? Life does,
If they defend themselves then tomorrow is another day; they can worry about legal matters and repercussions then.
they can't do that if they're dead.
And if it's questionable whether or not to use deadly force than the answer is no, they don't need to use dealy force.

Tropical Buzz
September 23, 2009, 10:37 PM
The gravity of a life and death situation trumps all other considerations given that the action taken is reasonable and taken solely for the purpose of preserving an innocent life.

The example above about the driver's license is a very good one in the general sense, but it fell a bit short in that it was not about a life and death scenario. If you were bleeding to death from a gunshot wound in the middle of an armed assault, and your buddy slid into the driver's seat to drive you to safety and medical attention, no one would take him to task for driving while unlicensed.

That is, of course, unless he has an accident along the way and injures or causes damage to someone else. At that point, all goodwill and common sense will be thrown out in favour of criminal and civil litigation.

So if one of you finds yourself in a situation where you have to use the other person's gun to save both of your lives, do not hesitate for fear of legal problems. Just make sure that you are both fully competent in the use of the gun as well as educated and knowledgeable about the conditions necessary to justify that use.

akodo
September 24, 2009, 12:09 AM
The question at hand is: Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? If he was, then whats the point of her going through the CCW process? Me possessing a valid drivers license, does not allow my friend who doesn't to slide over and legally start driving my car. Licenses are valid for the person who's name appears on them.

in an emergency that all goes out the window. A 14 year old can drive a car if he and his licensed dad are on a road trip when dad has a heart attack.

The CCW is to have the weapon on you when nothing is going wrong. Once SHTF there would be nothing illegal with picking up a gun dropped by a badguy and returing fire, or being passed a handgun by someone who has two, or even being handed the ONLY handgun because you are the most capabable shooter or have the best angle.

In the same way you don't need to have a CCW to carry in your own home, but if attacked and you choose to flee while armed, you are going to be just fine.


This is all providing that the facts match up with your story. You get pulled over for speeding and have a gun shoved in the back of your pants, your story about 'honestly officer these guys busted into my home shooting so I returned fire while getting the hell out of there, jumped in my car, and am speeding my way to the police station!' better have some shell casings and broken windows/locks at your home

akodo
September 24, 2009, 12:42 AM
The example above about the driver's license is a very good one in the general sense, but it fell a bit short in that it was not about a life and death scenario. If you were bleeding to death from a gunshot wound in the middle of an armed assault, and your buddy slid into the driver's seat to drive you to safety and medical attention, no one would take him to task for driving while unlicensed.

That is, of course, unless he has an accident along the way and injures or causes damage to someone else. At that point, all goodwill and common sense will be thrown out in favour of criminal and civil litigation.

Note: there are laws in place that lay the death that occured during or relating to a felony at the feet of those committing the felony, as murder.

The standard example is you pull a gun during a bank robbery and old lady has a heart-attack, robber is now a murderer.

Another common example is bank robber pulls a gun and shoots at guard, guard fires back but hits a customer behind the robber, killing customer. Robber is now a murderer. (note this doesn't mean a police officer or security guard won't loose his job and/or face a civil lawsuit, but as far as criminal charges, unless you can show the person shooting back was exceptionally reckless you won't have any criminal charges. Reckless action like poking just your hand up from where you have good cover and blindly firing in the general direction of the attacker, yea, you are going to be facing charges too)

So taking your example: Bank robber enters bank, shoots Father at the drive-through window, 13 year old son takes the wheel and attempts to drive Father to safety, but runs a yield sign, Tbones another car, killing the passenger...bank robber is charged with murder.

justashooter in pa
September 24, 2009, 03:38 PM
in pennsylvania a person can lend a gun to another person who has a LTCF under any circumstances. she can buy a gun and lend it to him to go to the grocery store if she wants. he can use it for any lawful purpose under any circumstance, including self defense. there is no law prohibiting an owner of a handgun (or long gun) from lending it out to someone who has LTCF. the LTCF requirement is provided by the PA UCF statute under Section 6100 to insure that those who lend it can be sure the recipient is not a prohibited person.

Sam1911
September 24, 2009, 03:47 PM
in pennsylvania a person can lend a gun to another person who has a LTCF under any circumstances.

I think this was a big part of his original confusion. As he is not yet 21, he cannot obtain an LTCF.

-Sam

mustang_steve
September 26, 2009, 03:08 AM
My only question is if this is considered a transfer of posession, and if so, what are the laws in the state in question regarding this?

NavyLCDR
September 26, 2009, 11:48 AM
No, it would not be considered a transfer of possession. At most it would be considered the loan of a firearm. In PA, a transfer of a handgun must be done through an FFL, and, therefore, the recipient would have to be 21 years or older to accomplish the transfer.

Frank Ettin
September 26, 2009, 01:01 PM
He is 20 years old .... His girlfriend is also an avid shooter...She ... plans to get her ccw, and carry in her purse(which I don't fully agree with). ... Suppose she is legally carrying the firearm...and it is needed for defense. Would he legally be able to use her weapon to defend them from an attack? For the record, they both reside in Pennsylvania.Most jurisdictions recognized the Common Law doctrine of "competing harms" or "necessity." There are various forms of this doctrine, and as usual, the devil is in the details. But the basic idea is that a minor infraction of the law will be ignored when that infraction was necessary to preserve life and limb. A common example is the fact that one will generally not get a speeding ticket when exceeding the speed limit to rush someone to the hospital.

So I would think that if the circumstances were truly exigent, and the use of lethal force clearly justified to protect innocent life and limb, and someone could use another's gun, to which he had immediate access, I don't think it would be a problem, even if the person using the gun could not lawfully carry or possess it.

Sam1911
September 26, 2009, 02:19 PM
This is not a transfer of ownership. In the case of handguns, that would require an FFL in PA.

-Sam

NavyLCDR
September 26, 2009, 10:54 PM
This is not a transfer of ownership. In the case of handguns, that would require an FFL in PA.

-Sam

Good point Sam! I'm glad you brought that up! :neener:

Girodin
September 27, 2009, 12:05 AM
does not allow my friend who doesn't to slide over and legally start driving my car. Licenses are valid for the person who's name appears on them.

That is a false analogy. A CCW license is not a license to shoot people in self defense it is a license to carry the gun concealed. He is not attempting to carry the weapon concealed.

The details of the situation would matter. I am not familiar enough with the laws of PA to even try to comment on how it might turn out specifically or generally.

Tacbandit
September 27, 2009, 12:23 AM
Ask a lawyer...a real one...

stickhauler
September 27, 2009, 03:37 AM
To my thinking, the only places where a girlfriend using her boyfriends firearm would be one that requires a state issued permit for each firearm you own, made out specifically to your name. New Jersey comes to mind, their permit structure allows you to hand your firearm to your child to use, but prohibits doing the same with your spouse, as the firearm is specifically registered in your name. In Pennsylvania, as far as I know anyway, you're cool.
For now, until Uncle Eddie pushes through more anti-gun legislation.

Sunray
September 27, 2009, 04:22 AM
CCW isn't a firearm. It's an individual's permit/licence. A driver's licence isn't transferable either.

Girodin
September 27, 2009, 05:15 PM
CCW isn't a firearm. It's an individual's permit/licence. A driver's licence isn't transferable either.

The terms are used to mean various things but I'd disagree that the definitions are as strict as you are suggesting My permit is called a C.F.P., not a CCW. It is in fact a Concealed Firearm Permit. It allows me to have a Concealed Carry Weapon.

Erik
September 27, 2009, 11:20 PM
Since this is legal, three questions:

1. Has this ever happened?
2. Has it ever gone to court?
3. What is the case law?

Sam1911
September 28, 2009, 07:43 AM
Good point Sam! I'm glad you brought that up!

:D You have NO IDEA how many times I've popped into a thread only to say, "Now where in the world is NavyLT to sort this mess out!?!" :D

Looks like I missed your post before replying...

I guess it was so good it needed said twice!

-Sam

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