3 Choices for CCW. Which one?


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Boba Fett
September 24, 2009, 01:16 AM
Trying to decide on a new CCW pistol.

I've had a fair amount experience with various CCW pistols and I have narrowed down my choices to three...which I've had no experience with. All three have good reviews and reputations, all three feel good in my hand, they all come in 9mm (please, no ammo wars. I love 45 as much as the next guy, but shooting 45 out of a small lightweight pistol is not as practical as 9mm).

So my three choices in no particular order:
1) Kel-Tec PF-9 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pf9.htm)
I've got a P3AT and while simplistic, it is accurate and accomplishes the pocket gun role very well. From handling the PF-9 at the local dealer, it seems like a larger P3AT as far as functionality goes and on the plus side, it doesn't have a cheese grater for a grip like the P3AT. Also has a rail and carries 7 mag + 1 pipe.

2)Kahr PM-9 (http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm_pm.html)
It feels pretty good in the hand. Grip is a bit smaller than the other two, but still good. Especially with the magazine extension. It is a bit smaller than the PF-9, but also a bit heavier which I would expect to help with the muzzle flip. I realize of course when you get smaller and lighter, it is more about proper grip than weight to control the muzzle. A bit more sophisticated than the PF-9 with an internal hammer and such. But it also holds fewer rounds out of the box, but can be fixed by getting an larger mag.

3) Walther PPS (http://www.walther-pps.com/)
Perhaps the most versitale and complex of the three. Has the Glock-like safety, various magazine sizes, front rail, and replaceable backstraps. I do like the feel of this one, but I got burned with the whole Smith & Wesson P99 Compact crap :cuss:. It was my own stupid fault for not researching it first, and I realize that the Walther is perfectly fine (I've shot several of them, including the Walther version of the P99 and it was great). But I'm still hesitant because of the S&W burn. This is probably also the heaviest of the bunch and it is also the largest. I expect the weight to help with muzzle flip...it feels more front heavy than the other two.


So there you go. That is my thought process. I had considered the CZ 75 D PCR and CZ P01 (http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/handguns/) I'm a huge fan of any of the CZ/Witness/Jericho firearms. I have several and plan to buy more in the future (drooling over a 10mm long slide Witness (http://www.snipercountrypx.com/images/PRODUCT/large/600252.jpg)...but that's for another day...) But the CZ just doesn't seem quite right for the CCW roll.



So, please vote on your choice, explain why, and post your experiences with any of the firearms I'm considering.

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smithmax
September 24, 2009, 05:13 AM
I was trying to choose between the PF-9 and the Taurus 709 and went with the Taurus. You may want to check that one out, otherwise go with the PF-9

bigfatdave
September 24, 2009, 02:02 PM
Your three:

Hit KTOG for more info on the Kel-Tec - my understanding is that they are quite reliable after a "fluff and buff", and if you want thin & light, Kel-Tec has it for a very reasonable price. I want one, but I don't need another 9mm pistol.

I've shot the Kahr as a rental, it was nice and 100% reliable, but I assume it was into its 57th break-in period or so, being a rental. Personally, I found it to be not so much fun to shoot ... not the recoil, but the trigger was not to my taste and the balance just wasn't working in my hand ... if you like it (and many do), go for it! That rental trip we were looking for a better CC pistol for MrsBFD, and the Springfield XD was the winner, unless you count the Springfield 9mm 1911-style we shot, which was a beautiful thing, happy in my hand and hers, but far too expensive at this point. After shooting the Kahr, we ended up buying an XD9sc from another LGS the same day.

I pack a PPS in 9mm, with the flush 6-round mag in, and I just finally found an 8-round for a reload. The Walther is pricey, and mags are hard to find, and mags are expensive (I got a good price at $43 per ... I know another dealer who gets them from the distributor for $39 each). I am continuously delighted with shooting my PPS, and find it easy to CC in a quality IWB holster.

More possibilities:

Springfield Armory XD - two passive safeties, a decent trigger, and a lot more capacity ... with a good IWB, it isn't overly thick, unless your ribs are visible. A quality holster and belt are imperative with any CC, but even more so with something thicker like the XD. Sometimes I think that the XD would have been a better option for myself, in fact.

Glock - love them or hate them, they are reliable. Personally, I hate their grips and can't get past that ... make your own call

Taurus pt709 slim - this think wants to be a PPS when it grows up, if it had been out when I was CC shopping, it would have been on my list, which looked a lot like yours, by the way.

Taurus pt111 - similar size to the XD, but less expensive - if you want a manual safety, it has one. Capacity is good, accuracy is OK, it has Heinie (sp?) straight-eight sights. In probably 500 rounds fired, we couldn't get one to malfunction, but it was just never right in the hand for MrsBFD or myself, and the sights weren't to our liking. The Taurus has "second strike", so you can hit the primer of a dud round again with a DA pull. The mechanism for that is interesting, but do you need it? I'm more of a tap-rack-bang guy myself, I've had bad primers a few times, and they're about 50/50 for going off when rechambered.

Springfield EMP - Mini 1911, built from the ground up to fire 9mm, rather than scaling down a .45 1911 to accept 9mm. Rent one if you get a chance, and then decide if the price tag is worth it to you.

David E
September 24, 2009, 02:15 PM
You're limiting your choices unnecessarily. You're also doing a bit of "apples and oranges" here.

What's wrong with the larger P-9?

A G-26 ?

Subcompact XD ?

Boba Fett
September 24, 2009, 08:49 PM
@ bigfatdave and smithmax
Thanks for the input. :cool:

@ All

While I appreciate the input for other firearms, I have really researched them and narrowed down the ones I am interested in to the three I listed (or four if you cont the CZ).

I have held all the firearms you've mentioned and shot a few.

I hate Glocks and XD pistols. I respect them for their applications and especially Glock for being a very rugged pistol. However I hate how they shoot and how the feel in my hand. Just personal preference, nothing against those who have them and love them.

I do love the 1911 platform. And while I do prefer not to carry pistols that have an external safety for CCW purposes, the 1911 is the only firearm I can think of I would make the exception for. But again, it is my preference for DOA no external safety pistols that keeps me from seriously looking at a 1911.


You're limiting your choices unnecessarily. You're also doing a bit of "apples and oranges" here.

What's wrong with the larger P-9?

Yes, one generally limits choices when you get ready to buy a pistol. ;) :D

Not sure I get the apples and oranges thing. They all fall into the category of a mid-sized/compact conceal carry (i.e. not a pocket gun and not a full size). They're all DOA 9mm pistols with the exception of the PPS which has more of a Glock like trigger safety and a very short trigger pull. They're all polymer based (with the Exception of the CZ which is an alloy/light alloy IIRC and is DA/SA).

What's wrong with the larger P-9? Well...you said it: larger. It isn't that I can't conceal it, simply that I can't conceal it as easily. Or perhaps I should say that I prefer the smaller frame for CCW purposes.

I can conceal my Sig P220 Compact, and do on occasion, but it is heavy, thick, and bulky compared to something like the three I'm looking at.


Keep the votes and critiques of the three/four firearms I'm considering coming. While I know it is often personal preference, hearing others experience with them is still helpful.

bigfatdave
September 24, 2009, 08:58 PM
Have you actually fired any of these? (or for that matter, an XD? As someone who hates Glock ergonomics with a passion, the XD is a very different feel in the hand, more on par with a Kahr or Walther)

Fit in the hand is the most important thing, you can improve reliability with careful maintenance, you can improve accuracy with practice, but it is mighty hard to change the ergonomics of a pistol without adding bulk, which is sort of against the whole single-stack easily-concealed concept you're going for.
Assuming cost is not the overriding issue, if I were you, and these were really the only three being considered, I'd rent/borrow them, run 50 rounds through each, and then buy the one that made my hand happiest.
Well, if we're really assuming cost is not an issue, I'd buy all three pistols, spare mags for them all, custom holsters for them all, and a really top-notch gunbelt.

As a separate point - none of those are SA/DA, really. The PPS and Kahr are striker-fired, and the Kel-Tec has an internal hammer, I think.

ReloaderFred
September 24, 2009, 09:13 PM
If I were going to buy myself a new firearm, for me to carry and shoot, the last place I would ask for opinions would be a forum board, where faceless strangers, who go by aliases, give opinions, based on what............? But that's just me.

When I'm going to buy myself a new firearm, which I do quite regularly (about a dozen so far this year), the only person who can make that decision is me, and me only. I don't care what the forums say, or the slick magazine writers say. It's my decision to make, and only I can make it.

And with this opinion, and about $1.50, you can get a good cup of coffee.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Walkalong
September 24, 2009, 11:03 PM
Yep. We can give our opinions, and it can give you a starting point, but you have to get out and try some guns out for yourself.

I took a buddy and his wife to the range today after work. She had told him to "Go buy her a .357". She had seen one she liked. Not shot mind you, but it looked good. Neither of us thought she would like a .357.

I brought a .22, a .38 S&W, a .38 Spl, a 9MM, & two .357's. She liked the .22, liked the Model 10 HB with light loaded .38's, but not full power ones, she did NOT like the 9MM, and we did not even bother with the moderate loads in .357. She did handle the .357's. We found out what weight she liked, and what recoil she could tolerate.

Yep, gotta get out and shoot some guns. :)

WhoMe?
September 24, 2009, 11:24 PM
I own the PF-9 and the PPS (in .40). My choice would be the PPS.

The PF-9 is probably going to do you well, but I have to admit mine has given me some problems with feeding. I like the Kel-Tecs (I own 3), and my PF-9 is extremely accurate. The downside is it had a lot of trouble eating the ammo, though the new magazines seem to have settled the indigestion (I have a very early PF-9). The other issue is the trigger slap/reset. I don't particularly mind it myself, but if you are going to compare the PF-9 to the PPS, it is a significant difference between the two as far as I am concerned. Finally the PF-9 seems to be a good bit more susceptible to limp-wristing feed problems than the PPS. This is probably not an issue for you, but for some it may be, especially shooting weak hand. If you've fired them both, then you will know if any of these are going to be an issue for you.

The PPS has been rock-solid for me. The only downside for me was getting used to the mag release in timed training/evals. I thought it would be an easy adjustment but quite frankly I still find it a bit awkward to use in certain scenarios.

I don't particularly like Kahr as a company, so I don't have any experience with the PM-9 for comparison.

The Bushmaster
September 24, 2009, 11:31 PM
And you want us to play santa claus too...Right? Well in that case...

Kimber, Firestar, S&W M19, Kimber, Firestar, S&W M19, Kimber, Firestar, S&W M19. But these only suit me and maybe not you. Do your own research.

No one can help you pick a carry firearm. You have to go out and try a few on for size. Then you come back and tell us what you chose...

Boba Fett
September 25, 2009, 01:53 AM
@ bigfatdave and WhoMe? - many thanks for actually reading my posts and providing good feedback,

@ bigfatdave - I did say DA/SA when referring to the Kahr and Kel-Tec. Should have said DOA. Thanks for the catch. Must have had the CZ stuck in my head...maybe it's a sign ;)
I wouldn't say that money is no option, otherwise I'd just get all three like you were saying :D
But renting them is certainly a good idea if any of the ranges in my area have them (know for sure that thee don't...have to check with the fourth I frequent to be sure).


@ everyone else so far
Yes, I know that I have to do my own research. And as I said in my OP, I have and have narrowed it down to these.

I have not had any experience with the three/four I am looking at with the following exceptions: I've shot a Walther P99 and owned the S&W P99 Compact :barf: so I am familiar with the style of mag release and style of striker that the PPS has and have no issues with either. I own a P3AT and the operation is similar to the PF-9 but on a smaller scale and caliber. I have a Baby Eagle, so I am familiar with the CZ style. No experience with the Kahr.

As stated, I have done a tremendous amount of research. I purchased one firearm many years ago without doing much research and it was the last time. I do like the idea of finding a place that could rent the three I'm interested in to me, and if anyone knows of a place in the Houston area, I'll make the trip down there. Haven't found a place yet that has them to rent. They have plenty of others (which is one of the reasons I know I hate the way Glocks and the XD feel to me - again, no slight against those who have and love them. It is simply personal preference).


Yes, I realize that the opinion of people on the Internet is worth very little. Which is why I asked for people with experience with these firearms. Which is why I specifically said I had researched and held all the firearms I am considering and narrowed the field down to three/four.

Opinion is mostly worthless. Experience does have worth. Not that it will influence my decision one way or the other necessarily, but if a bunch of people come back and say that such and such a pistol is very easy limpwrist or the magazines aren't that great and cause jams, then I may lean another direction.

It also helps to know what I can expect and what ways people have compensated or fixed any issues.



So please, read the OP, if you have experience with the three/four firearms I am considering, post your experiences.

If you want to recommend some other firearm, please use your psychic powers to send me the message. ;)

The more people that post their other favorite firearm choices, the more that will follow suite, and the less real info I will get from experienced owners/users of the firearms I am considering.

Extremely Pro Gun
September 25, 2009, 01:59 AM
MK9 looks pretty sweet

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 25, 2009, 02:03 AM
Walthers are amazing weapons as long as you're buying Walther and not an S&W knockoff.

Steve, MSG. Ret.
September 25, 2009, 02:30 AM
Say what you may about ammo wars. A 9mm, 38 spl, 357 mag, 95% of the time, will punch a clean hole! You have to hit a vital spot! A .45 ACP has more stopping power, PERIOD!!
Next to that would be the .40cal.
One shot .45 or empty the magazine, 9MM???

Boba Fett
September 25, 2009, 03:12 AM
Posted by Steve, MSG. Ret.:
Say what you may about ammo wars. A 9mm, 38 spl, 357 mag, 95% of the time, will punch a clean hole! You have to hit a vital spot! A .45 ACP has more stopping power, PERIOD!!
Next to that would be the .40cal.
One shot .45 or empty the magazine, 9MM???

Oh please. Don't start this uneducated crap. I asked nicely in my OP, but I guess some people just can't respect other people's threads.

Here, let me war game the caliber war for everyone:

One group will say 45 rules and here's 1000 reasons why.
Someone will say that you wouldn't want to be shot by a 22lr either so caliber doesn't matter and here's 1000 reasons why.
Then the revolver calibers will step in and say that the 38 spl and 357 mag and maybe the 44 mag are the only way to go and give their 1000 reasons why.
Then the 9mm people will start yelling at the 45 people and give their 1000 reason.
Then, the more level headed and reasoned people will explain that 45 and 9mm are good, but so long as you have good hollow points that feed well in your firearm, most other calibers will do just fine. We'll get to read their 1000 reasons.
Some more level headed people will come along and say that caliber doesn't really matter so long as you have one of the common/standard calibers and can actually hit your target. 45 or 22lr; doesn't matter if you can't hit anything. They'll give their 1000 reasons.
Finally, the war will get so bad that people stop posting their opinions and start posting derogatory expletives about how someone's caliber choice indicates their "size." And then the moderators will step in and close the thread.

So there, caliber war game finished. Thread annihilation is inevitable.

I REPEAT: DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A CALIBER WAR. THIS MEANS YOU STEVE, MSG. RET. AND ANYONE ELSE THINKING ABOUT IT. :fire:

If you want to have that "debate," I suggest you necro one of the previous threads (that is if you can find one that isn't locked), or start your own soon to be locked thread.

But as Steve's post proved, no information pertaining to the OP was received and that is what will happen to the whole thread.

NO CALIBER WARS :cuss:

Walkalong
September 25, 2009, 03:28 PM
PM 9.........Do please let us know which one you buy, and how you like it.

f4t9r
September 25, 2009, 03:51 PM
Go with CZ
I always like the posts that stick to the orginal question.
OP gave 4 options so pick one or stay away.

ronto
September 25, 2009, 04:16 PM
I will not bet my life on a limp-wrist prone, ammo sensitive jammer...I carry a wheelgun and I suggest you consider doing the same.

LancerMW
September 25, 2009, 04:37 PM
this is an autoloaders fourm, go somwhere else!!!, just kidding i acctually carry a wheel gun 90% of the times

Erik M
September 25, 2009, 06:30 PM
Of the choices that OP listed I would pick the Kahr.

m2steven
September 25, 2009, 07:21 PM
Kahr pm9 first, walther pps second. I have the pm9. I also have a taurus 709. I love the way the 709 and PPS feel in the hand. But the Kahr is such a great pistol with such a great trigger that you'd be hard pressed to find a better carry pistol in 9mm.

Jed Carter
September 25, 2009, 07:28 PM
The survey so far says Kahr but the reviews/blogs are mixed about all of your choices... Except the CZ... What would you trust? The CZ PCR is all metal, it fits a man's hand like a glove, hits what you aim at and is as reliable as an auto pistol can hope to be. I have a PCR, I carry it everytime, everwhere I can, legally. I trust it.

Jed Carter
September 25, 2009, 08:02 PM
Boba, don't listen to any of us, inparticular Steve, he's new but still welcome here on The High Road.
Steve apologize to Boba, the thread is about choices in compact and subcompact 9mm pistols, If you had to choose among the "listed" choices which one would you carry Steve?
I love big powerful semi-autos, 1911's, SIG's, 10mm & 9mm Glocks and HK's of all sizes. I had to make a choice or compromise between concealability and firepower. Never compromise on accuracy and reliability. CZ Baby!

Boba Fett
September 25, 2009, 08:27 PM
At last, more people with actual experience with the firearms I'm considering.

@ the people recommending I reconsider the CZ. How do you find the weight when carrying. As I said earlier, I've CCWed a SIG P220 compact and it is just a too heavy and chunky. The CZ seems slim enough, but how do you find the weight? And I am all too familiar with the reliability and accuracy of CZ/IMI/EAA - they are excellent.

@ those who said go with X from my list, could you expand on your endorsement and explain why? Do you own said X firearm?

@ the revolver people, I love revolvers as much as the next guy. And I understand the benefits of a revolver for CCW. Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference and I personally decided to go with a semi-auto. I have my reasons, but I don't want to start a wheelgun VS semi-auto war (almost as bad as ammo wars ;) ).


Please keep up the good info. There's a gun show in a week from now and I'll probably pick one of the four at that time. Give myself one more good holding of all of them and make a decision.

searcher451
September 25, 2009, 08:30 PM
If you are serious about limiting your selections to these guns, then rent or borrow one of each and take them to a range and run enough ammo through them until you determine which one best fits your hand and eye.

That having been said, I'd take a good hard look at the Walther PPS. It's the real deal, IMO.

bigfatdave
September 25, 2009, 08:50 PM
If you mentioned your location, someone might volunteer some trigger time near you.
I haven't opened up the safe for anyone on the 'net, but I have opened it up for friends a few times to let them test-drive something in their category, or something I wanted to show off.

m2steven
September 25, 2009, 09:50 PM
I own a CZ75 and it's a great pistol. It does fit the hand like a glove and is highly accurate. However, you probably wont be able to carry it all the time due to it's size. If you can, it's a great piece of work. If you can't, get the Kahr. You'll be surprised by it's absolute quality and (again) the trigger. It's a precision instrument and a joy to shoot AND i've not found a situation wherein I could not carry it in some fashion. If you really shed the clothing, you're probably talking LCP or something, but as long as you're wearing pants or a shirt, the Kahr is about perfect.

MCgunner
September 25, 2009, 10:12 PM
Why would anyone want a PPS when they can have a full power 9mm +P that's smaller, lighter, just as accurate? I chose Kel Tec because I have carried a P11 for 13 years and know how good this little auto is, but I can only argue against the PM9 on price. It's a capable gun, too.

They have an article in American Rifleman this month on the Rohrbaugh if money is no object. It's not +P rated, but it's small and light and in full 9x19.

I own a little .380, but I have more faith in the 9, especially in +P. The .380, I wonder about full penetration WITH expansion. The nine, I have no qualms. +P stuff from my KT pushes 410 ft lbs, 115 grain XTP/JHP. That rivals .357 magnum 2" snub ballistics and it's much easier to shoot than a 12 ounce .357 scandium snub.

I think it's a no brainer, Kel Tec or Kahr. The little subcompact 9s are by far the best CCWs on the market IMHO for pocket carry. I carry a .38 snub in preference to the .380.

Boba Fett
September 25, 2009, 10:18 PM
@searcher415 and bigfatdave - yeah, others have said the same thing about trying them out. I would like to shoot them first and a friend told me about a place where they have most of the firearms I want to try.
http://www.bullettrapinc.com/

They're missing the Walther PPS and the CZ75 D PCR, but they have the other three.

I like bigfatdave's idea: if anyone is in the Houston, TX area, I'll drive to meet you and bring/buy the ammo if you'd be willing to let me test out the firearms I'm considering.

@m2steven - mostly I want to be able to CCW it middle of back right side. I have the LCP's ugly older brother the P3AT :p which I like very much in terms of accuracy and reliability. It fills the pocket pistol roll very well.

@ MCgunner - I haven't shot +P for any of my calibers, and don't really plan to. It might be nice to have the option though, so I'll add it to the list of considerations.
As for the smaller Rohrbaugh, the price isn't really the problem as much as the fact that I already have a P3AT and don't need another pocket pistol. Mostly looking for a compact/sub-compact pistol for behind the back type of carry.
Good to know your Kel-Tec has served you well for so many years. I have been impressed with my P3AT as well. Kel-Tec is usually a simplistic firearm (not really a bad thing...less to break/go wrong) and often needs a little buffing of the plastic edges (at least on mine and on most of the ones I've looked at). But for the price, durability, accuracy, and ease of use, I'm more than willing to do a little fluff and buff to make it perfect.


*edit*
Just realized that the place my friend was telling me about is up in Dallas/Plano X_X
Which makes sense since that's where he lives.

Guess I won't be making the trip there this weekend. So back to trying to find a local place or someone willing to let me try them out.

Isher
September 25, 2009, 10:20 PM
CZ P-01.

Daily carry.

Don't even notice it.

Pulls, points and shoots flawlessly.


isher

Guillermo
September 25, 2009, 10:32 PM
I carry a Kahr PM9 and love it.

There are many guys that claim to be able to conceal a Desert Eagle while wearing a thong and a feathered boa while doing Ty Bo on the hood of a moving car. I am NOT one of those guys.

Living in Texas I need a SMALL gun to conceal. The Kahr is reliable, small, easy to carry. It is not a range toy. It is just a darned good carry gun. I HIGHLY recommend it.

MCgunner
September 25, 2009, 10:36 PM
Well, if you want a IWB gun, your horizons do broaden a bit. :D However, my P11 carries real nice IWB, too, in its Mitch Rosen Workman tuckable. I just found that carpenter's jeans had more'n adequate pockets for the gun and switched to pocket carry several years ago.

Yeah, Texans and other deep southerners tend toward small guns for a reason. Heck, it's RARELY coat weather down here. I've heard we're in for a cold, wet winter. That would really be nice for a change. :D

Boba Fett
September 25, 2009, 10:38 PM
It is not a range toy.

Good point and I certainly don't expect it to be. I have range toys/home defense weapons.
Much like the P3AT, I expect my CCW choice to go to the range with me just enough to keep me proficient with it and cycle out my carry rounds every few months or so.

Also agree with you about living in Texas and carrying a smaller gun.
I really do hope we can get Open Carry passed some day. Of all places not to have it...I mean...come on, this is Texas!

MCgunner
September 25, 2009, 11:09 PM
Hey, I'd love to have open carry, but I carried for 25 years illegally before we could even carry a gun in the CAR! Had to be unloaded and locked in a trunk. :rolleyes: I carried a .25 ACP for many years til I got an NAA mini to carry due to their compactness. When legal CCW came along, all of a sudden all these little .380s and 9x19s were developed. What a great thing, REAL calibers for carry! LOL

exiledrebel
September 26, 2009, 02:21 AM
I bought a PPS in .40 cal and absolutely love it. I CCW it in a GALCO pocket holster in the summer and bought it for that very reason. It is also more comfortable in IWB carry than my Glock 27.

I was very pleasantly surprised at how well I shot it at the range. There was very little muzzle flip, making it very easy to get back on target for a follow-up shot. I found it to be very accurate, too. Now I want to shoot it back-to-back with the G27 to compare them more closely.

bigfatdave
September 26, 2009, 09:00 AM
I was very pleasantly surprised at how well I shot it at the range. There was very little muzzle flip, making it very easy to get back on target for a follow-up shot. I found it to be very accurate, too.I also found the PPS to be enjoyable and accurate at the range.
Boba Fett, do keep in mind that maintaining minimum skills is fine, but regular range time is better. One of the reasons I love my PPS is because I actually shoot it almost every range trip, and at further distances than just SD ranges. I've shot it at 3-7 yard point-shooting distances out to 50 yards from a bench (I'm no crack shot, but I kept the hits on a 2'x3' target at that distance just fine).
The Kahr would be about as good to shoot regularly, but the Kel-Tec may be a bit light for enjoyable shooting with hotter loads.

Jed Carter
September 26, 2009, 09:28 AM
CZ 75D PCR is 1.7 lbs, on a belt holster I don't feel the weight, I'm a real estate investor and do much of the renovation work myself and keep this pistol on as I work. here is a link to CZ http://czusa.com it should give you complete specs on both the P01 and PCR. Of your choices I could only see the compact Kahr and CZ pistols getting much range time, Subcompact pistols are not so much fun to shoot, IMHO, they are more concealable, but compromise on performance. Whatever you decide ... start a new thread with pictures!

03hemi
September 27, 2009, 09:49 PM
i know glocks are not fav. but look at the g36 it carries, conceals,shoots very well i sometimes forget its there!

ArthurDent
September 28, 2009, 02:43 AM
Boba Fett,

Before you purchase, you should watch NutNFancy's videos on YouTube.

Here's his first gun review ever, of the Kahr PM-9. This review is somewhat tentative because it is a first outing, but he praises it consistently in other videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHqkQ3CP1HM

Here is his 2-part review of the Kel-Tec PF-9. He also does a lot of comparisons to the Kahr in these videos.

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNRbkOdUgms
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aLx1v2AY1M

Here is his review of the Walther PPS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj8z5lq9XHg

I do not own any of these, but I've seriously considered the Karh and the Kel-Tec.

I would personally favor the Kahr. It seems to be a very high-quality product.

My problem with the Kel-Tec is consistency of quality. If you do go with the Kel-Tec, then you should DEFINITELY look up "fluff and buff," and set aside about 5 hours do do this before your first range trip. I have looked closely at several different Kel-Tecs of various models, and the quality varied widely. Most worked great, but some had serious problems out of the box. A little home smithing can usually make them reliable.

As folks have said, borrow each and shoot them all first. The choice is yours.

That said, my choice would be the Kahr. :-)

Boba Fett
September 28, 2009, 10:21 AM
Thanks ArthurDent, I actually am a huge fan of TNFP and subscribe to his videos. All excellent and all very informative.


As many have said, trying to find them to rent or borrow is a great idea. I've found one place that has the Kahr. Can't find any of the others yet.

Not too concerned with the Walther or the Kel-Tec or even the CZ. I've shot similar firearms from them so the performance should be similar to the one's I'm considering.

gitnsige
September 28, 2009, 10:34 AM
I have a CZ PCR and its my winter carry because it is a bit bulky even for a compact. It is my favorite pistol by far. The PF9 has been on my list, but I have a hard time justifying it when I have a sig p232 380acp which is just a bit heavier and wider because of the hougue grip. If I didn't already have the sig and a keltec p32, I'd have the PF9.

SigP229R
September 28, 2009, 11:17 AM
Personaly I would opt for a sig P229 in 9 or if that wasn't reachable money wise another P6.

modifiedbrowning
September 28, 2009, 11:30 AM
I voted for the PPS. Mine (9mm) has been 100% out of the box. It is accurate and recoil is surprisingly light for a gun of this size.
As bigfatdave said mags are pricey and hard to find, but that seems to be the deal with almost all Walther pistols.

grimjaw
September 28, 2009, 11:51 AM
If you can reasonably carry a CZ PCR the majority of the year, I'd recommend that. Otherwise the PM9 (or if you don't mind the weight and extra expense, the MK9).

jm

bikerdoc
September 28, 2009, 12:19 PM
Picture to back up my vote

CZ 75 compact

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/bikerdoc1948/002.jpg

daehawc
September 28, 2009, 07:25 PM
I started reading the replies to your question but it got slightly off topic. Of your choices, I have owned both the PF-9 and the PPS. To me, the PPS is a much better gun. Much more solid and even in .40 has less percieved recoil than my PF-9. I like Kel-tec as a company. They make decent quality firearms for cheap prices at the expence of quality control. They do back up their guns with industry leading customer service. 3 of my Kel-tecs had to go back at some point for work. All worked great once I got them back. My walther has been 100% since day one but I've only put a couple hundred rounds through it.

I do like the sights and ergos of the Walther better, it tends to point and shoot much more naturally than the Kel-tec did. In 9mm, I'd imagine its a pretty soft shooting gun just from my experience with it in .40.

I've heard good things about the Kahr but I just didnt like the trigger of the one I played with (dry fire only) and it did not point as well for me as the PPS.

I no longer own the Kel-tec but I do carry the PPS FWIW.

Good Luck

jon_in_wv
September 28, 2009, 08:11 PM
Of the choices you listed I voted for the CZs BUT I don't think anyone can go wrong with a M&P 9c, a Glock 26, or a XD 9. They are barely larger than the ones you listed, Carry more rounds, are superbly accurate and fit the hand well, and still have enough grip to allow fast and accurate shooting. I bought the M&P 9c as my primary carry piece and I LOVE it. I've fired several thousand rounds through it and carried it daily for about 3 years now. It still looks and shoots like its new. The other smaller nines aren't ENOUGH smaller for me to justify them. If I need smaller I carry my LCP, if I can carry larger its my M&P.
Of the ones you chose though, I highly suggest you try all three and see which on suits YOU. None of us can tell you that.

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