The basic form has been grinded and it has not been heat treated. I was thinking about leaving the spine as it is, with visible hammermarks. What do you think - is it a good idea or not?
When I have time to finish this knife I will aim for something like a "Kokemäen" puukko.
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7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 01:57 PM
JVoutilainen, if you've stumbled across any of my work on these forums, you'll know that I have a real appreciation for the "forge finished" look. It has the advantage of ensuring that admirers know they're looking at something made literally by hand, and it hides scratches from normal use.
The downside is that the rough surface left by the scale can be harder to clean and dry. That is something of an invitation to the problems of a dirty knife in food preparation, and the possibility of encouraging rust. More lightly textured surfaces are easier to deal with (and I can't tell from your image, until the scale is removed...).
Looks like it's gonna be a fine little knife, though!
Out of curiosity: What steel, how much time in the forge, how much time at the grinder? On the time spent, I'm just trying to get an idea how long other makers out there spend banging the metal into shape.... I've never seen another bladesmith work!
This one's a hunting knife I made for a friend last New Year's Eve. I'd guess we started with a coil spring at about 9 or 10am and had a finished knife and sheath by 7 or 8 that evening..... Obviously I don't spend much time on cutlery furniture! This one will (hopefully) see its first deer next month!
It took me about one hour to forge the blade, but that is because I am pretty meticulous about creating just the right shape = I don't want to spend much time grinding. I think I spent about 15 minutes grinding the edge. I do it freehand, because I am a HC handicraft person :D...
I know what you mean about the rough surface. I use blades that have been polished bright, because I think they offer a degree of protection against rust.
This particular blade is made of .8% carbon steel.
Hey, that is a "Emännänveitsi" in your pic :). How would I translate that...hrrrmmmm...a mistresses knife?
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 02:31 PM
It's been a couple years now since I made a blade that I actually ground the blade profile on, I've been turning them out with that forged look instead.... That one started as a single coil from a Toyota front suspension coil spring :)
A mistresses knife? Geeze, I hope not :) We designed it hopeing to achieve a hunting knife with enough point to make chores like starting cuts and the cut around the a nu s (defeating the word censor) easy enough, and with enough belly to make skinning not-to-much of a chore... A cross between traditional clip-point hunters and skinners like the Buck 103, we hope... The open bent handle is actually quite rigid and reasonably comfortable....
These are pen knives and a pair of spring shears I made for family last Christmas. Each takes about an hour or 1.5 hours to forge from 1/4" music wire (basically 1085-1095 sort of steel, ASTM A228 says between 0.7 and 1% carbon steel.... Hard to nail down the actual number!)
That is what a knife like that is called over here - although most of them are/were a bit smaller than yours. Almost every housewife had one hanging from their appron in not so distant past. It is a practical knife, because you can forget it on a hot wood burning stove and it will not burn, and the heat treatment is easy because there is no fixed handle to deal with. Also, it is easy to keep clean.
I do not have to worry about the extra time spent on grinding stuff by hand, because I am not a professional blade smith. I know that many who are use grinding jigs to make the process faster and more consistent. It makes a lot of sense if your livelyhood depends on it.
Are you a full time knife maker, by the way?
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 02:58 PM
Oh, hell no! I'm just a self-taught amateur with a small charcoal forge behind my garden shed. I've probably made less than 2 dozen blades since I built the forge 5 years ago. Based it on stuff garnered from Tim Lively's site (the knife shape is loosely based on some of his stuff too...)
I'd previously seen a couple of tourist smithys operated, turning out simple hooks and horse-shoe nail rings for the kids, but that was the extent of it. Swung a hammer once or twice at Kings Landing, a tourist historical village not far from here, when I was a kid... That was the spark.
Those pen knives I posted in the second post are probably very similar to the mistress knives you mentioned. They're quite small, usually about a 2.5" blade and 3" handle, weigh about an ounce.
When I did grind the blade profile, I did it by hand with an angle grinder... Hard to get that real consistent, but it did the job.
I've never sold a knife. I'd rather those who want one come on out and help make it. That's how that hunter came to be.
I've got a rule about making hobbies into jobs....
J
bikerdoc
September 25, 2009, 03:11 PM
I've got a rule about making hobbies into jobs....
Speaking of hobbies.... Her is my latest effort.
Rounded the end of this blank as Todd sugested.
Chilmau, I do believe the word "mistress" in this context is an older meaning, as in "mistress of the house" (as opposed to "master of the house").
Not to be confused with the same word in its more modern "illicit affair" meaning.
JVoutilainen
September 25, 2009, 03:18 PM
7X57chilmau,
At least you have a forge! I have to rent one from time to time. I wish I could keep my head so cool about this knife making stuff... you see, I was hooked the instant I tried it - badly.
JVoutilainen
September 25, 2009, 03:20 PM
ArfinGreebly,
Exactly!
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 03:21 PM
ArfinGreebly,
Yeah, I figured that out on the second post mentioning it.... Had visions of late-night escapes via second floor windows for a minute there :)
Bikerdoc,
That one's no good. Send it to me :) You're taking a real shine to this hobby, arentcha? Much cleaner job on setting the scale rivets this time, the last one's forward rivet was a little...... less nice, IIRC....
The only thing I've got to offer for critisizm on this one is that the point appears to be somewhat rounded..... Took me years (no, really!) to figure out how to keep'em needle-like when I hand sharpen....
Lookin good!
J
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 03:27 PM
J,
This is all I've got....
(old image, teh way it started)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/JasonB1976/S2020007Small.jpg
Today, more or less
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/JasonB1976/IMG_0051Medium.jpg
IIRC, it cost me about $250 or less to put this together. Blower was $40, post vice was $60 (gotta love fleamarkets), forge cost about $60 to build (mostly for the refractory cement I didn't really need...)
Oh man... I would love to build something like that, but unfortunately the house I live in is rented.
Snow on the ground? Where do you live?
bikerdoc,
I see your work improving every time. However, I would reconsider the size of the finger guard. I think it is a bit prominent on this one. Also, this knife would look really cool with a single bevel sharpening, meaning that the sharpening would start from the spine of the blade.
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 03:55 PM
J,
That snowy photo is from Christmas time last year.... No snow yet here!
I'm in New Brunswick, Canada. An hour from the Maine, USA border. It'll be plenty cold here come January.
J
JVoutilainen
September 25, 2009, 04:01 PM
Yeah, come january we will also have some - about a metre - of snow.
By the way, interestin "bellows" you've got there. What is that?
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 04:16 PM
It's a hand-cranked forge blower, made in the late 1800's in Ontario by A.B. Jardine. These replaced the great billows on many forges once cast ironwares became inexpensive. This one will blow a 3" tuyer, massive overkill for my little forge...
It's got a 4 paddle impeller in the large housing, intake is on the far side from the crank. on the crank side is an oil bathed gearbox, with a ratio of something like 10:1. Turns beautifully smoothly on poured babbit bearings. I can achieve white heat turning the crank only about 1 revolution per second. Double that and it blows the charcoal right outta the forge!
Very nice, indeed. Does it feed air directly into the forge, or does it have some kind of pre-heating "system"? How does it function in freezing conditions?
7X57chilmau
September 25, 2009, 04:45 PM
Just blows air into the pipe beneath the fire. No pre-heating of anything. Haven't noticed a difference in cold temperatures, except that the oil in the gearbox slows up, making the cranking more of a work-out. I don't try to use it much below -10C. That's just unpleasant. :)
Must remember to drain the gearbox in the next couple weeks... the oil's looking a bit milky lately, musta got some water in there at some point...
J
JVoutilainen
September 25, 2009, 05:03 PM
I am sure most people here do not know what "kokemäen" puukko looks like, so, here is one example.
Clean lines, unpretentious and functional. There are no bolsters and the shoulders of the blade have been left visible, which makes sharpening easier.
Personally I like this model alot.
hso
September 25, 2009, 05:40 PM
JVoutilainen,
Why did you taper the tang instead of forging it out with parallel sides?
Thanks,
Mike
JVoutilainen
September 25, 2009, 05:53 PM
hso,
Good question. I have not really thought about it... since I was taught that this was the way to do it (tradition). I guess it is because 1) the taper comes as a natural byproduct of the forging technique 2) this form is strong in the right place (where the tang meets the blade). 3) in most cases the tip of the tang is annealed and used as a rivet to hold the bolsters and handle together - again, this form has both strength and it is easy to rivet.
EDIT: I might have misunderstood what you meant. The tang is tapered in a way that produces a flattened hexagonal cross section because this way you can fit the front bolster seamlessly (I have not decided whether I am going to use one or not, though). If the tang is rectangular there are going to be gaps because the blade has a "diamond" shaped cross section.
JVoutilainen
September 26, 2009, 06:22 AM
I recenty obtained some pine knar and I am considering using it as handle material for this knife. But, I do not think the knife is going to be "unpretentious" anymore if I do.
I think this wood would look great with a silver bolster. Opinions?
hso
September 26, 2009, 10:02 AM
What part of the tree does knar come from? From the looks it means the same as "burl (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBurl&ei=HBC-SuDkLZKh8Ab6otS_AQ&rct=j&q=burl&usg=AFQjCNGGrp6YF_eFtaE8K1n5UBgN7TF8tQ&sig2=B9ZZE_glAuOrSJDGN4-2rw)" in english. Regardless, it will be pretty and there's every reason to carry a pretty knife.
Most American smiths will carefully file the guard and tang to get a tight fit between them instead of tapering the tang. Also, they don't usually harden the tang, only the blade.
broken
September 26, 2009, 10:28 AM
nice job.wish i had a forge.
JVoutilainen
September 26, 2009, 10:35 AM
I used a online dictionary to translate the word "pahka" and got "knar". I do not know if that is what you would really call it. It is a big lump that usually grows on the tree trunk. Sometimes, but less frequently, you can see them on branches also.
EDIT: Yes, it is a burl
Most American smiths will carefully file the guard and tang to get a tight fit....Also, they don't usually harden the tang, only the blade.
There are two reasons I do it in the forging stage. First, it takes lesser time if I forge the shape compared to filing/grinding. Also, shaping the tang with a hammer gives it some extra toughness, in my opinion.
The tang in scandinavian knives is NOT hardened, neither is the spine of the blade. What I meant was that the tip of the tang is re-annealed to make it soft again after forging. Hammering the form makes the steel harder and some alloys (especially if there is lots of chromium in the steel) tend to harden (HRC 58+) in the stress relieving phase.
hso
September 27, 2009, 01:11 AM
it takes lesser time if I forge the shape compared to filing/grinding.
And smiths elsewhere do the same. They forge to as near a finished state as possible. They just don't taper the tang that much. They forge it with an almost parallel taper and then file the ricasso and tang to match the guard to leave the minimum opening. Then they drive the guard the rest of the way into place.
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