UT Gov: NOT ON OUR SIDE.


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mljdeckard
September 25, 2009, 07:08 PM
I was waiting for a reason to have an opinion about this guy, now I have one.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8054891

September 25th, 2009 @ 11:19am
By Brock Vergakis, Associated Press Writer

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Utah Gov. Gary Herbert says he doesn't want his state to be a national clearinghouse for concealed weapons permits.

In the fiscal year that ended in June, just over 50 percent of the state's concealed weapons applicants were from outside Utah. Utah's permit is considered one of the most valuable in the country because it allows the holder to carry a hidden weapon in nearly three dozen states.

Herbert told reporters Thursday during a taping of his monthly news conference for public television station KUED that he's concerned about the state's ability to track permit holders outside of Utah. The event will be broadcast Friday night.

"I think we need to protect the Second Amendment, that's for sure, and Utah ought to stand tall in that regard," said Herbert, a Republican. "That being said, I don't want to be a wholesale clearinghouse for anybody who comes to Utah that we don't have the ability to kind of track ... that they then go some place else outside of our borders and conduct themselves inappropriately."

As of Sept. 1, there were about 196,000 people with Utah permits, according to state records. About 116,000 of those were Utahns.

In Utah, law enforcement officials continually check criminal records against a list of permit holders, but they don't have the ability to do the same thing with every other state.

Most states that issue concealed weapon permits also allow people to carry hidden guns if they have a permit from another state with similar requirements to obtain a permit.

Among other things, Utah permit holders must be 21 years old, complete a firearms course, and have no convictions for felonies, violent crimes, or offenses involving drugs, alcohol or domestic violence.

Herbert said he would support tighter controls on concealed weapons permits, but he didn't specify what those controls might be.

"I'm not much into reciprocity, whether it's real estate licenses or gun licenses. I think Utah needs to find out what we think is important for Second Amendment issues and do what we think is right as a state right here in Utah. Let others do the same," he said.

Former Department of Public Safety Commissioner Scott Duncan had advocated to stop issuing permits to nonresidents, but the conservative-dominated Legislature rebuffed his attempts. Duncan resigned earlier this year for health and personal reasons.

Another effort -- to end Utah's practice of certifying instructors who teach Utah's concealed weapons permit courses outside the state -- was dropped in the legislative session that ended in March after opposition from the National Rifle Association.

(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)


He's not much into reciprocity? I'M not much into governors who scoff at the effort that has been put into making Utah's CCW permits the most universally recognized in the nation. I think it's time to find a more RKBA candidate for governor.

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mljdeckard
September 25, 2009, 07:22 PM
Letter I just sent:

Dear Governor Herbert,

I will do you the favor of being brief and to the point.

The position shift on Utah's carry permits for non-residents causes me great concern. Utah has been an example to the nation in respecting the right of every citizen to defend himself. We came close this year to passing nationwide recognition for carry permits after it was shown that citizens who have permits from Utah and Florida do not in fact have any higher likelihood to commit crimes than any other person. We have been working for 14 years to gain reciprocity with other states to have our permits recognized. In your statement that you are "Not much into reciprocity", you are saying that a law abiding citizen becomes a criminal when they cross a state line. Non-residents have been looking to Utah to help them exercise their fundamental human right to self-defense even when their own state will not.

I will strongly suggest that you speak with the Utah Shooting Sports Council and Clark Aposhian regarding this matter to fully understand why this issue is so important, and why now is not the time to look for reasons NOT to support the right to keep and bear arms.

Sincerely,
Deckard

wbwanzer
September 25, 2009, 07:53 PM
Deckard, thanks for your support. I live in the Peoples Republic of Maryland and am currently waiting for my Utah non-res permit. Of course I still won't be able to carry in the state where I feel the most unsafe (Maryland), but I could carry when in nearby PA and VA.

Anyway, thank you for your effort to help those of us who live in Nanny states. I'm hoping to move to PA in the next few years.

By the way, I'm in love with your state. I was there this time last year. I brought home an auto license plate, rocks, and other souveniers. If, God forbid, something happened to my wife, I would move to either Utah or Arizona in a heartbeat

mljdeckard
September 25, 2009, 08:01 PM
I think this is a very good example of why it's necessary to back up ALL gun owners nationwide, and how we really are in this together.

BHP FAN
October 3, 2009, 07:15 PM
Amen.Say,don't big game hunters go to Utah? You might want to mention the revenue that goes with being a ''gun friendly'' state, in your next letter.

hso
October 3, 2009, 07:22 PM
I don't see a plan quite here yet.

We have a complaint from mljdeckard about the governor of Utah dissing non-resident permit applicants.

Then mljdeckard has done something and provide an example for the rest of us, but by itself we're still short of a plan.

Anyone going to come up with one?

How do we get to something that will amplify our voices instead of just one person complaining at a time?

THE DARK KNIGHT
October 3, 2009, 07:29 PM
I think this is a very good example of why it's necessary to back up ALL gun owners nationwide, and how we really are in this together.

Well said. Wish more people felt that way.

I'll be writing the guy a letter.

sltintexas
October 5, 2009, 06:24 PM
If you look at it from his perspective I see his point. the fact the Utah is the most recognized permit put a big burden on his state with issuing all those permits. He just needs to jack up the price of his states non- resident permit to offset the operations cost, then he could hire more people etc.

We need to think of a way to make it a win/win... not just a we win, Utah looses.

KenW.
October 5, 2009, 06:44 PM
As a resident of Utah, I see the points. As an LEO I also see the Governor's:

How shall Utah keep track of Joe Shmoe in NY, and revoke his permit if its required? And Ali-Kazaam in MS? And Muhammoud Jihadi in FL?

I don't need my permit to get more expensive because non-residents want one. The non-residents should stand up to thier own state first; or move to UT.

Not making too many friends here, but that's not why I posted.

ArmedBear
October 5, 2009, 06:51 PM
I think that UT might consider charging more for non-resident permits.

I don't think that UT residents should pay more so that I can get a UT permit, but I would like to see the UT permit remain available.

The governor, a Republican it says in the article, ought to have some sort of clue about the marketplace, right?

Also, if he's not "into reciprocity", then how, exactly, does that square with not supporting out-of-state UT permits? If UT doesn't recognize my ID permit, then the option I have would be to get a UT permit -- unless I can't, right?

Personally, I wouldn't mind if a number of states got together and formed a coalition to issue multi-state permits that satisfied all their requirements, or set up some way to extend an in-state permit with additional requirements.

For example, WY doesn't allow someone with a drug conviction to get a permit. ID technically does (good luck actually getting one, but the law doesn't specifically single out someone who got caught using drugs 20 years ago or something). I have no such conviction. WY could recognize my permit, even if it doesn't recognize all ID permits. Some "clearinghouse" would be needed to allow more states to accept reciprocity.

mljdeckard
October 5, 2009, 09:30 PM
Utah already turns a profit on carry permits, and they just hired more staff. I'm not entirely opposed to raising the price for non-residents, but one of the advantages of the Utah permit is that it costs less than the Florida permit. If we raised it too high we would lose that advantage.

Utah checks all permit holders for changes in their status daily. They can revoke an out-of-stater's permit just like they can pull one from someone in the state.

As far as a plan, I not only wrote the governor, I checked and the Utah Shooting Sports Council is also on this. I think that the governor is about to get an earful on this, and won't say anything more about it, hoping everyone forgets about this one. You can email him at his website, for the governor of the state of Utah.

Girodin
October 5, 2009, 10:06 PM
He just needs to jack up the price of his states non- resident permit to offset the operations cost, then he could hire more people etc.

Utah runs a surplus on their permits and already hired two more fulltime employees last year.

How shall Utah keep track of Joe Shmoe in NY, and revoke his permit if its required? And Ali-Kazaam in MS? And Muhammoud Jihadi in FL?

This got debated during the last legislative session. For all the fear mongering by the anti's (it was the most liberal member of the senate who ran the bill) the determination was there was no real issue and not providing out of state permits was a solution to a non existant problem. When someone can show what problem really exists that this is supposed to solve I'll listen until then I see it as more unfounded attempts to restrict gun rights on false pretenses.

The govs comments about reciprocity are troubling in that he makes a horrible analogy to other types of permits. A more apt analogy would be a drivers license does he think we shouldn't recognize other states DLs?

I'm very concerned by Herbert's stance on this. He ought to be concerned as well seeing as he will face competition for that seat from within the Republican party, a party that as a whole is fairly pro gun in this state. Look at the expansive gun rights legislation passed in the last year and the judicial confirmation hearings that kept a judge from being apointed to higher court based on his decision concerning the U of U gun case (he flouted state law to take an anti gun position).

Write the governor letters. Contacting the USCC is a good step in that they can get the word out via email and cause a lot more letters to be sent his way. If you are a Utah resident be registered to vote in the primaries and participating in your caucuses so we can get the right type of republican candidates in the races is key.

ArmedBear
October 5, 2009, 10:35 PM
The reason for real estate licenses is revenue. The reason for damn near every license is revenue, and control.

Private certification organizations do just fine in industries where there are no government licenses.

Oyeboten
October 6, 2009, 12:45 AM
Has Utah felt any embarassment for Utah-CCW issued non-residents having behaved badly?


Is there really any issue there with that?

mljdeckard
October 6, 2009, 01:20 AM
The only thing I can even remotely consider is Nevada dropping us from reciprocity. The found reasons to drop UT and FL, the two biggest 'permit' states. But no, I have never heard of any incident with a Utah permit holder outside the state.

Girodin
October 6, 2009, 02:35 AM
Has Utah felt any embarassment for Utah-CCW issued non-residents having behaved badly?

They weren't able top come up with any when the far left Senator Scott McCoy ran his bill last year. I emailed him asking for his reasoning and what the bill would accomplish and he had already seen that his bill was going nowhere and simple responded that the bill was being abandoned in favor of upping the fees for both residents and non residents with the money to be used as a slush fund for the highway patrol. His replacement bill did not pass. Unless the composition of the Senate changes dramatically I don't think any gun bill Mr. McCoy runs will get much traction. It is frightening to see Herbert on board with the arguably (his buddy Romero is right up there) most far left member of the Senate on a gun issue. It is more alarming given that there is no real justification for doing away with out of state permits. There are theoretical problems but just like the theoretical problems with shall issue permits (minor traffic accidents turning into gun fights because everyone is armed) they only exist in certain peoples minds.

I'll have to email him and ask for some explanation. I was happy to see Huntsman go and thought Herbert had a lot going him but I cannot support a office holder that is not a strong defender of my constitutional rights.

KBintheSLC
October 16, 2009, 06:02 PM
I am not entirely convinced that we should be handing out non-resident permits in such quantities. I bet I'll get flamed for saying this here, but does your state give out drivers licenses to non-residents? I know that here in Utah, you must have a permanent address to get a UT drivers license. Why is it different for gun licenses?

Frankly, I feel that if you want a CCW permit, you need to lobby your own leaders to get that right. Don't lobby other states' leaders to give it to you. If your state is too infested by lib-*****, you are always welcome to move to Utah and pay taxes here like the rest of us. Just watch out, Salt Lake is turning to little San Francisco pretty fast.

... better yet. Lobby congress for national right to carry. Or even better... lets do away with CCW licensing and go back to the 2nd Amendment.

ming
October 16, 2009, 07:20 PM
What if a person visits Utah regularly? Don't need a Utah driver's, but would need a Utah permit. That's the difference.

ArfinGreebly
October 18, 2009, 03:27 AM
As hso mentioned above, if this is to stay on topic, it is appropriate for some kind of plan to take shape.

Please "take it as read" that it's a Good Idea for Utah to continue their permit program.

The governor shows no particular enthusiasm for this.

The question to address would seem to be how do we a) get his attention, and b) get him to change his mind?

Anyone?

Girodin
October 18, 2009, 04:12 AM
I bet I'll get flamed for saying this here, but does your state give out drivers licenses to non-residents?

Like the governor you are making a poor analogy. Every state will issue a drivers license and every other state will respect the validity of that license. Were that the case with concealed carry permits (or concealed firearm permits as the are called in Utah) then there would be no need for UT to have out of state permits. Utah offering the out of state permits in effects creates a similar situation to what exists now with DLs. A person from out of state can have a permit that allows them to drive/carry in UT.

Plans for action. Let me start with some brief background. Herbert become Govenor because he was Lt Govenor and Gov. Huntsman resigned to take a position as Ambassador. Herbert is not as entrenched as your typical encumbent and will face challenges from within the republican part for the nomination in the next election. Similar to how Walker did when she took over. Herbert know this and should thus be interested in the feelings of his base. Action needs to be taken to let him know that registered UT republican voters will not stand for hostility towards the rights of law abiding gun owners. If you are registered with the republican party and vote in the primaries that is even better since that is where the governorship is really won or lost. The UT system is also designed to avoid primaries if possible though. Thus being a registered party member and voting there is still trumped by being involved in your caucuses etc. So few people are involved in these things you really actually can have some effect unlike voting in a general election.

People need to inform themselves of the local political processes and lanscape. They then need to get involved. If those highly concerned with gun rights would actually do that they could make certain that Herbert or any other candidate that did not toe the line on gun issues never would see a party nomination. It really is easy, more so than people think. It is just a matter of getting past the apathy.


you are always welcome to move to Utah and pay taxes here like the rest of us.

No you are not! There are way too many of you already.

Deltaboy
October 18, 2009, 06:39 PM
Let's put the press on the Gov.

KBintheSLC
October 19, 2009, 02:23 PM
Like the governor you are making a poor analogy. Every state will issue a drivers license and every other state will respect the validity of that license.

I completely understand... however, I think you are missing my point. All I am saying is that instead of wasting your breath on a governor that is out of your voting district, lobby the leaders in which you are a valid part of their constituency. We need to push harder for national reciprocity... that is the only real solution. Begging some foreign governor to throw you a bone is not a solution.

mljdeckard
October 21, 2009, 08:29 PM
By the way, I got a generic reply, they said they would refer it to the BCI.

This is NOT a good response. The BCI doesn't need convincing. Herbert is on my list of politicians to work to remove at every opportunity.

KenW.
October 24, 2009, 11:12 AM
I REALLY try hard to not vote for incumbents in the primary.

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