[boogalou]

On another gun forum I read that the proper grip on a 1911 is to keep the shooting thumb on top of the safety. I thought to myself, thats funny, I always keep that thumb under the safety. After checking out a few other threads, I seen that most of the top bullseye shooters use this type of grip.

Well, it feels odd as hell to me. I know my support thumb is supposed to be underneath and pointing towards the target but it seems like its out in the middle of nowhere. I'm used to keeping my support thumb underneath my shooting thumb, or sometimes I interlock my support thumb on top of my shooting thumb. I tried this 1911 grip with my CZ75 & CZ83 and it felt more comfortable on those guns, because of the location of the safeties and shape of the gun.

So is this grip just meant for 1911's, or can it be used on all semi-autos? I would like to keep things simple when I shoot my pistols, and want to use the same basic grip on all my guns regardless of what I'm shooting.

[Sven]

I ride the safety... when drawing, my thumb is automatically in the right spot... once on target (or on the way to the target), the saftey is disengaged and the thumb helps control the gun - for me, anyhow.

Left hand thumb rides the side of the frame.

[WonderNine]

Sure, ride the safety if you want to learn how to shoot wrong and have a nice blister on your thumb after 100 rounds. :p

[mete]

When you have the thumb in the down position it enables you to get a tighter grip since you are using the muscles differently.

[DMK]

I put my thumb on the safety, snick it off and hold it down. I don't know what it does for acuracy, but I want to know that if I ever have to use my gun, my thumb is going there without even having to think about it.

Before I did this, I found that with my CZ-40B, I kept bumping the safety off when firing. I'd pull the trigger, nothing would happen and I'd go :confused: Now that I've made it a habit to put the thumb on top of the safety, I've never had that happen again.

[Graystar]

The only proper grip is the one that gives you repeatability. That's all that matters.

I'm left-hand so I can't even try such a technique on my 1911 (which is CMP legal, so no ambies.)

[MoNsTeR]

I've taken to keeping my right thumb "high" on any pistol that allows it. It does feel strange at first, but the advantage in control is significant so getting used to it is worthwhile.

[WonderNine]

Before I did this, I found that with my CZ-40B, I kept bumping the safety off when firing.

Then either you're bumping the safety with your thumb as you shoot or there's something wrong with your CZ's safety.

[DMK]

Wondernine: Oh yea, no doubt about it. I was bumping the safety off with my thumb. Just something about the way the CZ-40B fits my hand, it put my thumb right under the safety when I pointed it(my thumb) straight ahead. On recoil, my thumb would occasional bump the safety up. And that gun doesn't even have a large safety that sticks out much.

[WonderNine]

I would just practice alot more with your thumb below the safety. Make sure you have a really good grip on the gun and concentrate on keeping your thumb in place and eventually it will be second nature. It gives you so much better control over the gun and like I mentioned I used to get blisters all the time back when I'd shoot Hi-Powers with my thumb riding the safety. I didn't shoot so good that way either.

I've never accidently knocked the safety to the on position while shooting, but I did used to have a problem where my Beretta 92 would fail to lock back on the last shot until I realized I was hitting the slide release with my thumb during recoil. I guess long thin fingers are good for shooting some things and bad for others. :cool:

[Walt Sherrill]

Not everbody's hand is like yours, Wondernine.

Bumping the safety is apparently something that has never happened to you -- but folks with differently shaped hands often accidentally bump the safety during a course of fire -- until they start riding the safety.

Its not caused by bad technique. Its not caused (always) by bad equipment. Some folks have bigger hands with more meat in a place that pushes against the safety.

I never get "bit" by the hammer on a P-210 or a CZ, but a lot of folks do. Are they doing something wrong and am I doing something right? Nope.

I don't really like riding the safety, but its a lot better than having the slide lock open during a course of fire -- because you inadvertently nudged the safety.

And if you get a blister after 100 rounds doing it, then YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG... <grin>... (or your hand is just built differently.)

[WonderNine]

I just think if he concentrates on it and keeps a firm grip on the gun, he'll be happier after it becomes second nature and that he'll be glad he doesn't shoot riding the safety anymore, that's all I'm saying.

I never have liked the CZ's grip though, there's too much of a bow in it that lets them slide up and down in my hand.

[Andrew Wyatt]

every top handgun shooter i know rides the safety. i ride the safety. my dad rides the safety. none of us ever have problems with the safety getting bumped on.

[DMK]

I used to get blisters all the time back when I'd shoot Hi-Powers with my thumb riding the safety. Interesting. I've never had that problem. I'm a little concerned that I may graze the slide one day, but I've never done it yet.

Bumping the slide is not the primary reason I ride the safety though. I carry "cocked and locked" so I want to develop muscle memory to snick that safety off and hold it down every time I fire.

[Navy joe]

Sure, ride the safety if you want to learn how to shoot wrong and have a nice blister on your thumb after 100 rounds

So, what's "wrong" with high thumb? Personally I've had no blisters or slide ride issues in many thousands of rounds. I have watched more than a few low thumbers bump a safety on. Very comical to watch them apply about 50 lbs. of force to the trigger, stare at it in disbelief, etc. before they figure it out.

What's right with high thumb for me:

-It keeps the safety where it belongs.
-Does not get in the way of a proper weak hand grip. The heel of the weak hand should come in under the strong high thumb. Then the weak thumb lays in alongside the frame, pointing forward. The strong thumb actually lays as much on it as it does on the safety. If you low thumb you end up wrapping your weak hand over your strong thumb, leaving your weak thumb flapping in the breeze. Or you do some cup and saucer crap.
-It is repeatable, hand goes to the same place every time by the very act of swiping the safety.

To Boogalou,
I end up with pretty much the same grip on all full size guns. I shoot a Glock high thumbs which means the strong thumb rests on top of the weak one, both pointing forward, just like the 1911 grip. Very pointable. IMO if your weak index finger isn't all the way up under the trigger guard you are gripping too low. Also, the support hand should exert a majority of your gripping force. Another big component of 1911 grip is the mainspring housing. Depending on hand size you may notice a definite liking for a flat, wedge, or arched housing. When you grip the gun do your strong hand knuckles align down the center of the front strap?

[Parker Dean]

Sure, ride the safety if you want to learn how to shoot wrong and have a nice blister on your thumb after 100 rounds.


Bah!

I ride the safety and my shooting thumb never even touches the slide. I know as there's never even a hint of abrasion on my thumb.

I also find that riding the safety forces me to hold the gun so that it is aligned with my wrist. If I don't ride I'll hold the gun in a manner that aligns with my thumb joint which makes recoil control harder. This is my main reason for using this style of grip.

[boing]

I notice a trend in these discussions.

The people who don't ride the safety tend to say things like "Your technique is wrong", and "Your gun is broken", and "You'll get a blister", and "You'll rub the slide and cause a stoppage".

The people who ride the safety say "It works for me", and go shooting.

I ride the safety. :p

[sm]

I shoot what is referrred to as "high thumbs". Yes my thumb is on safety. I shoot 1911 style. I use this grip on everything. Even changed from "low thumbs" on revos.
My hands are a size 7.5 surgical glove, not meaty, not boney...wrinkles getting prevelent tho'.
For me, especially with 1911 style, I have more lateral ( side to side control). I also , if need be , have control of safety...been known to stumble ,slip on a stage, muzzle downrage and about to do a belly flop in mud, finger off trigger and safety snicked on. Plop!
Actually with weak thumb I'm touching slightly the slide lock.

Hands differ, find what works everytime for you, bunch of folks seem to shoot high thumbs tho'...

[Standing Wolf]

I've always figured the thumb rest on a model 1911 does double duty as a safety.

[OF]

The only proper grip is the one that gives you repeatability.I just thought Greystar's comment there bore repeating. Consistency is the most important aspect of your grip.

That said, I shoot high-thumbs and I am so far blister free.

- Gabe

[Kruzr]

I used to shoot with my thumb under the safety until I was convinced to try thumb high. This can hurt if the back of the thumb safety isn't beveled and there is an edge there. After learning how to shoot thumb high, I find I have much better control of the gun and even shoot that way one handed now.

Here is what Robbie Leatham has to say about it:

http://www.americanshooter.com/Features/RL1/rl1.html

[Gerald McDonald]

I shoot high thumb because I found I shoot faster, better. The CZ 75SA has a very good safety for high thumb, stock hi powers not so good but still better than low thumb. I have a Wickmann safety on one Hi power and its as close to perfect for high thumb as I have ever shot. For a 1911 high thumb is the only way to go, I had a few problems with the off hand locking the slide back, but changed the stock kimber slide release to an Ed Brown slide release and it hasnt happened in the last couple of years.

[WonderNine]

The blisters I got came from contact with the safety during recoil. I don't see how you guys can shoot over a hundred rounds without this happening as it happened to me about every time I would shoot a couple boxes, but to each his own I guess.

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't doubt you when you say shooting this way gives you a blister. But you are the first person I've ever encountered who has this problem. (Perhaps thousands more have it and just don't mention it.)

What I don't understand, though, is WHY it gives you a blister?!

If you're pressing down on the safety as the gun is fired, there should be no movement between your thumb and the safety during the recoil cycle --
certainly there should be no more movement than if your thumb were firmly against the grip BELOW the safety. Your thumb should be stationary regardless of position, below or ON the safety.

The relative position of your thumb and safety should NOT CHANGE during the recoil cycle. If there's no movement, there should be no friction or rubbing. If no friction/rubbing, no blister....

Your experience with this grip is really unique -- hence all the opposing viewpoints.

[c_yeager]

If nothing else riding the safety gives your hand a reference point on the firearm to aid in repeatability. To me this is akin to the "nose to the charging handle" method with the ar15. It isnt really "better" than any other method but, it does make it easy to end up in the EXACT same position everytime you shoot which will raise your scores.

[45auto]

I switched to a thumb on safety about 10-15 yeas ago and it really is a much better way- IMHO. But, it took a little while to become accustomed to it, old habits die hard.

I tried it with a 1911 without a beavertail and a standard safety and it was very uncomfortable, down right painful in fact. It must have a well fitted beavertail and wide extended safety to be "seamless". I did have to file down some of the sharp edges of the safety for my hand. The CMC, Kimber style thumb safety is not good for me,while the Ed Brown is very nice. One style does not fit all if you shoot a lot. Same with beavertails.

An easy way to try it is with a low thumb safety. Your hand is in virtually the same spot as if you kept your thumb under the safety. Very comfortable, but your hand isn't quite as high and that safety makes weak hand shooting difficult-IMO.

It's too bad someone doesn't make thumb safeties at different heights. There is a lot of space inbetween the high(standard) and the low mount that would help people ride the safety properly.

[Tamara]

My only problem with shooting "high thumbs" is blast from the B/C gap on a J-frame tattooing the tip of my left thumb. ;)

Seriously, I can think of no single thing that improved my pistol shooting more than switching to "high thumbs" about four years ago.

[varoadking]

You must work in a bank...:D

[Walt Sherrill]

Hey! I work in a bank. I don't get blisters. <grin>

[boogalou]

I tried it with a 1911 without a beavertail and a standard safety and it was very uncomfortable, down right painful in fact.

45auto - Both my 1911's are plain janes, a Springfield Mil-Spec & an Colt Series 70, so its possible that an aftermarket safety and/or beavertail might feel better. I'll have to shoot first with this hold and see how I do, then make some decisions from there.

Thanks for your help.

[Andrew Wyatt]

All of my 1911s are sans beavertails and they're comfortable with the high thumbs hold. you might not need one of the beavertail doohickies.

[45auto]

Boogalou,

It's worth a try. Hopefully you can try other guns with beavertails, safeties, etc and compare it to yours to see what feels best for you.

Good luck.

[10-Ring]

I have been using a high thumbs grip for a few years now. It's the most comfortable & efficient grip I've tried. I use it for all my guns (not just 1911s).

[Ryder]

If you low thumb you end up wrapping your weak hand over your strong thumb, leaving your weak thumb flapping in the breeze.

Bzzzzt. Take another guess. Try phrases such as "interlocked thumbs", "greatly increased grip strength", and "hard to disarm" this time.

Quite the education here. I didn't know so many people had so many problems shooting pistols. Glad something works for you guys! :)

[Navy joe]

:rolleyes:

Ok, you got me. Now show me a picture of any decent shooter using an interlocked thumb "hard to disarm" grip.

[Sean Smith]

All of my 1911s are sans beavertails and they're comfortable with the high thumbs hold. you might not need one of the beavertail doohickies.

I've shot modern isocoles-style using a basic Colt 1911 without any problems. But if you are one of those folks that uses their thumb on the thumb safety to really crank the gun down low in your hand (instead of just resting your thumbs on/parallel to it), then I'd agree that the standard GM grip safety may not be the way to go. Some folks crank the gun so low into their hand that they'd need to cut off the entire spur on a spur hammer for that to work without chewing their hand to bits... :D

Ok, you got me. Now show me a picture of any decent shooter using an interlocked thumb "hard to disarm" grip.

Think he means the Weaver stance. Perfectly serviceable way to shoot, but got overtaken in game-gun competitions by the Modern Isocoles, which looks sorta like what most folks do when they talk about "high thumbs."

[Tamara]

I may hold the gun with my thumb bearing stylishly down on the safety, but my elbows are bent most unfashionably... :uhoh: Some muscle memories are easier to overcome than others, I guess.

[TMC]

Sure, ride the safety if you want to learn how to shoot wrong and have a nice blister on your thumb after 100 rounds

If riding the safety is the wrong way to shoot just think how good Rob Latham, Brian Enos, Burce Piatt, Mike Vought, Todd Jarrett, Matt Burkett, Taran Butler, Jerry Barnhart, etc. would be if they knew this.

http://a5.cpimg.com/image/7F/CA/25631615-0c79-02000154-.jpg

http://a8.cpimg.com/image/82/CA/25631618-5c83-02000154-.jpg
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/83/CA/25631619-6147-02000154-.jpg

[Sean Smith]

I catch myself shooting what amounts to Isocoweaver or Weasocoles every once in a while too... :D

[Navy joe]

Oh heck, I'm supposed to lock my elbows? :o I catch myself doing a reverse Weaver(weak arm locked out, strong bent) if I am doing that whole shoot fast and ignore your sights routine. Other than that elbows locked or not matters little if I am shooting from the iso with a good index and grip. Heck, I shoot Weaver high thumbs if I ever want to look particularly vintage.
Then there was this one little troll of a line coach that insisted I assume a Weaver stance for the military pistol qual since that is what the Navy teaches. So I dutifully went along and put my feet on a 45 angle from the target and racheted my legs right around so I had a nice hips up iso index on the target. Troll obviously mandated Weaver not knowing what it was. Also wanted the safety on between mag changes, guess I was a little fast for that one too.

TMC, that you? Lookin' good. Running a Para right? Doesn't a sign asking to not shoot the props count as asking for it?

As far as interlocking thumbs, yeah I tried it. Shot an IDPA match right handed recently, wasn't so bad. My time only doubled. Kept doing the stupid grip thing because my poor dominant left hand had no clue what it was supposed to be doing.

[Parker Dean]

Weasocoles...


LOL!

[Tamara]

I catch myself shooting what amounts to Isocoweaver or Weasocoles every once in a while too... :D

You laugh... it looks even funnier when you're cross-eye dominant and stick out your tongue like Michael Jordan, to boot... :o

(But, hey, if it puts the bullet holes pretty much where you want them, and in a timely fashion, it can't totally suck... :uhoh: )

[TMC]

Navy Joe, thanks for the compliment, as for the props asking for it... only in practice not in a match, unless its totally convenient...:D

Para P16-40, fiber optic front sight, Schueman bull barrel, Ed Brown safeties, STI hammer & sear, tungsten guide rod, Dawson magwell, and Dawson basepads for 21 in the mag!

[Ryder]

This homey don't use no formal stance and there is no right or wrong way unless we are all cut from the same mold. I do what comes natural because it's comfortable. You should do the same.

Ok, you got me. Now show me a picture of any decent shooter using an interlocked thumb "hard to disarm" grip.

After 30 years of experience I'd say I am "a decent shooter" and I use that grip. I guess I am wondering here what you mean by decent shooter. If a decent shooter has to have a following that worship his methods then no, I am not that. Neither do I worship anyone elses method.

No pictures of my grip but I think you know what I am talking about and the results speak for themselves (I think). Here is a picture I posted earlier on the old firingline site. Nothing special here, just testing a new gun with some new loads. Those are 1 inch rings shot rapid fire (it is the only way I shoot anymore). First shot always hits 5" high with that gun at that range, so it's North of the paper but it was fairly well centered as I recall.


http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=825028&size=lg

These are load development notations on that target. WARNING: I consider that a max load. It is compressed powder and shell ejection is very energetic. You do not want those puppies to hit you in the forehead. Here's another warning if you try this load, don't try holding your pistol like you are making meat patties or saying your prayers for bed or you soon will be sleeping. :what:

Ok, you got me. Now show me a picture of any decent shooter using an interlocked thumb "hard to disarm" grip.
Just curious to know if you feel shown? It's about the best I can do on such short notice and short of riding to Virgina. :)