Cost/Benefit analysis


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wilkersk
September 28, 2009, 01:35 AM
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OK, So I know this topic gets beat to death. I didn't see the pinned thread on reloading cost when I first posted this. I hope this thread might be of additional value. If not, I won't feel hurt if it gets deleted.
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The current prices for reloading components has really got me to thinking about the cost benefit of reloading over buying factory bulk ammo. So tonight, I sat down to do a good old fashioned "Cost/Benefit Analysis" for reloading .45acp over buying one of the lesser expensive brands of factory ammo.

I used price data from Cabela's, Montana Gold, and Starline Brass. And I figured the initial cost of 1000 rounds of new, unprimed brass plus subsequent costs of reloading the same brass over 5 different batches.

The bottom line is, I found that after 5,000 rounds (the first load of virgin brass + 4 reloads), the total cost savings is enough to pay for a new Dillon XL650 with the case feeder.

I saved the data as a single-file webpage (*.mht). If anyone wants it, I might be able to figure out a way to post it.

If you enjoyed reading about "Cost/Benefit analysis" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
benzy2
September 28, 2009, 01:46 AM
It gets even better if you buy range brass or just scrounge it for free. Switching to lead instead of jacketed goes one more step and before you know it you are casting bullets in the garage out of wheel weights you picked up free. It is a vicious cycle that only gets worse from here. The hook has been set.

Landric
September 28, 2009, 04:27 AM
Yeah, I just got into casting this year (after 15+ years of handloading). With recycled brass, I can get down to as little as $.03-$.04 per round, only slightly more expensive than .22LR was the last time I bought any.

There is plenty of savings with the common cartridges, 9x19mm, .38 Special, .45 ACP, but the real savings comes from loading stuff like .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .444 Marlin, .45-70 Government, etc.

bullseye308
September 28, 2009, 10:16 AM
I'll go you one better than that. Pick up every piece of brass you find. Swap every piece you don't need for ones you do need. Brass is free. Put an ad on craigslist for lead in any form. Wait for the call to pick up your lead. Lead is free or almost. Cast your own bullets. minimal cost that pays for itself in no time. Shortly all you are paying for is powder and primers. I currently load 9mm, 38,357, & 45 for around 45.00/1000 at current prices for powder & primers. Now figure out how soon your equipment pays for itself.

ranger335v
September 28, 2009, 10:36 AM
The cost:benefit value misses the point. It really comes down to what criteria you use and the goals you seek.

For monetary benefit, after we factor in the cost of components, time, loading room & bench/storage, equipment/tools, etc, and reloading vs. buying isn't a very good deal for many of us.

Factor in what we like to do in our leisure time, what we enjoy, what we get out of it, and reloading becomes cheap enough for the enthusiast.

So,.. what's important to YOU?

wilkersk
September 28, 2009, 03:02 PM
The cost:benefit value misses the point. It really comes down to what criteria you use and the goals you seek.
{snip}......So,.. what's important to YOU?

SHOOTING!

I started shooting IPSC this year. I can easily shoot 500 rounds per week. And, I dang sure can't afford to buy the factory stuff.

5,000 rounds to break even for an XL650 with a case feeder? You bet! I'm all over that!

Deavis
September 28, 2009, 03:58 PM
Don't forget to count your time, it is not free. Any analysis that excludes it is short-sighted. Don't give me the whole, "I like reloading" or "reloading is relaxing, it doesn't cost me anything," spiel, that isn't the point. Your free time is worth something, generally it should be valued at the money you could be making in that time OR the monetary translation of other activities you could be doing that are rewarding for you.

If any of you value your free time at $0, then come talk to me, I'd be happy to employ you to reload for me at that rate 24/7. I'll even throw in a copy of Thoma Sowell's, "Basic Economics," to cure you of your opportunity cost ill :)

Nate1778
September 28, 2009, 04:11 PM
Reloading is like flying. You think buying a ticket on a commercial aircraft to a destination round trip is $1200. So you get a pilots license, plane, hanger, mechanic, so you can take the trip for $300 in gas.

The real question is how do I deal with the addiction? You know you have it hard when your sweeping the indoor range floor for them. When you have to get through the last box of ammo you brought because filling out 75 rounds of a 100 round box doesn't make sense to you. You'll stop to pick up a single wheel weight sitting in the street, your the only guy during a cease fire at an outdoor range picking up bullets with a bucket and so on and so forth.

angus6
September 28, 2009, 06:52 PM
If any of you value your free time at $0, then come talk to me, I'd be happy to employ you to reload for me at that rate 24/7.

Your missing the point it's MY free time , if you employ me then it is no longer free time as I'm employed.
Should I start billing the SWMBO for scratching her itch ? charge the kids to take them to what ever ?
It's free time ie: in time that I'm not employed , which I'm lucky enough to have 4 days a week of

benzy2
September 29, 2009, 02:07 AM
Don't forget to count your time, it is not free. Any analysis that excludes it is short-sighted. Don't give me the whole, "I like reloading" or "reloading is relaxing, it doesn't cost me anything," spiel, that isn't the point. Your free time is worth something, generally it should be valued at the money you could be making in that time OR the monetary translation of other activities you could be doing that are rewarding for you.

If any of you value your free time at $0, then come talk to me, I'd be happy to employ you to reload for me at that rate 24/7. I'll even throw in a copy of Thoma Sowell's, "Basic Economics," to cure you of your opportunity cost ill

Do you bill yourself for everything you do off the clock? Do you judge your free time doing what ever it is you do based on what you could be making if you were at work? I find reloading near as much fun as shooting. You can say it cost me my hourly wage but so would going to the range to shoot yet you don't see anyone adding in their hourly wage to their range tips for their time lost do you? Free time is FREE. You weren't making money on that time anyways. I'll bill myself at the same rate I bill myself to watch football on the couch.

Deavis
September 29, 2009, 03:15 PM
Your missing the point it's MY free time , if you employ me then it is no longer free time as I'm employed.
Should I start billing the SWMBO for scratching her itch ? charge the kids to take them to what ever ?
It's free time ie: in time that I'm not employed , which I'm lucky enough to have 4 days a week of

The laws of economics don't end because it is YOUR free time. Read what I wrote and put your brain in gear before you post your argument. ALL of your time is worth something, that is the basis for opportunity cost. That is a fact. Just because you choose to ignore that fact doesn't mean it is untrue. The fact that you immediately indicated that you wouldn't reload for me for free shows that you DO understand opportunity cost but refuse to apply it equally in your life. You are ALWAYS on the clock.

The value of your time, including your "free" time is what you could be earning or receiving with that time by working/trading/whatever. Simply because your job doesn't employ 24/7 doesn't mean that you COULDN'T be making money during that time. Scratching your SWMBO's back is not free, it is costing you whatever you could get paid in the free market by working or by engaging in one of a myraid of other activities that benefit you. That DOESN'T mean that you shouldn't scratch her back, I'm simply pointing out that you COULD be earning money instead.

Do you bill yourself for everything you do off the clock? Do you judge your free time doing what ever it is you do based on what you could be making if you were at work?

Yes, because your time on earth is finite and is therefore a scarce commodity. That makes every minute of it worth something, there is no time off the clock. Don't confuse what you call "free time" with the economic term free.

Free time is FREE. You weren't making money on that time anyways. I'll bill myself at the same rate I bill myself to watch football on the couch.

That is blatant ignorance, don't take that personally, but those statements show that you do not grasp the principle of opportunity cost. The fact is that you COULD have been making money or receiving any type of compensation you chose during that time. You just made a value decision that watching football was worth more to you than the money your normal job offered you. Which means that the football game may have cost you MORE than your normal work wage.

Unless you are a slobbering idiot with no marketable skills then your time is worth something monetarily and even if you are that poor soul, your time is still worth something since you can still do things that benefit you with your time. Even if it is just drooling on your feet and laughing about it, that is worth something.

That is why you CANNOT exclude your time from the equation when you reload. In other words for those of you who can't get past the basic principles, the time you spend reloading is time you could have spent making money (dollars lost), scratching SWMBO's back (brownie points lost), teaching Little Billy to read (Daddy points), shooting at the range (becoming a GM IPSC shooter), or any other of the million things that you could be doing with the little time you have here on earth.

It is the same reason I pay people to fix my car now. I could fix 99% of the issues with it myself but I'd rather pay a mechanic to do it using the money I earned from trading my daytime hours for dollars because the time I spend with my family while the mechanic is working is worth more than the savings in dollars I would receive by using my time to fix the car. Similarly, this post has cost me something in terms of productivity but I accept that because I've enjoyed driving home the simple principle of opportunity cost more than the sales I may have lost. Worth every penny to preach the message, do not UNDERVALUE your time, it is the biggest disservice you can do to yourself.

Landric
September 29, 2009, 03:54 PM
That is why you CANNOT exclude your time from the equation when you reload. In other words for those of you who can't get past the basic principles, the time you spend reloading is time you could have spent making money (dollars lost), scratching SWMBO's back (brownie points lost), teaching Little Billy to read (Daddy points), shooting at the range (becoming a GM IPSC shooter), or any other of the million things that you could be doing with the little time you have here on earth.

I can't spend the time at the range becoming a grand master, my time is worth too much for that!

Perhaps I should cut out sleeping so I can spend more time working and making money (which BTW, I can't take with me once my limited time here on earth is over).

I really am starting to get tired of people coming to handloading forums and telling me (and others) that handloading doesn't save any money because I have to spend time doing it. If that is how you feel about it, fine, don't handload. My time is worth the value I place on it, not what some forum poster or PhD has to say about it. I don't want to spend all my time working, and given that, I am not losing anything spending hours in front of the press doing something I enjoy. If others feel that they are losing something, then the answer is simple, don't handload.

Deavis
September 29, 2009, 06:33 PM
I really am starting to get tired of people coming to handloading forums and telling me (and others) that handloading doesn't save any money because I have to spend time doing it.

Who said that in this thread? Point to the post where someone said that you can't save money? It wasn't me. Who said anything about cutting out your sleep and working more? Where is that evil bogeyman to which you refer? Is pointing out the logical fallacy in a computation somehow offensive?

Here, I'll say it. Even if you value your time at $40 per hour, you can reload for less than equivalent factory ammo if you buy in bulk and use a progressive press. At least you are right about one thing in your misguided rant against some strawman somewhere, you do determine the value of your free time through your choices. :rolleyes:

RidgwayCO
September 29, 2009, 07:39 PM
Deavis, I teach economics at the college level and understand the concept of opportunity cost, but your comments are really beyond the norms of polite society…

Name-calling is not "The High Road." In your comments you used the words and phrases "short-sighted… spiel… if any of you value your free time at $0, then come talk to me… put your brain in gear… you choose to ignore that fact… blatant ignorance… you do not grasp the principle of opportunity cost… slobbering idiot with no marketable skills… even if it is just drooling on your feet and laughing about it… misguided rant...", but then try to soften the blow with "don't take that personally"? You weren't even addressing me and I took it personally.

Nobody works 24/7 (at least for long), and everybody needs downtime which is (usually) never compensated. The small point that most of the posters above were trying to make is that nobody pays them to watch the tube or mow the lawn, so they don't feel they have to justify the cost of their reloading time by including it in the cost of their reloads. Would they be more accurate if did? Yes. Are they in complete denial if they don't? Not really…

Ok, flame suit on. Let me have it…

Landric
September 29, 2009, 07:40 PM
Who said that in this thread? Point to the post where someone said that you can't save money? It wasn't me. Who said anything about cutting out your sleep and working more? Where is that evil bogeyman to which you refer? Is pointing out the logical fallacy in a computation somehow offensive?

No one yet, but its coming, it always does in these threads. It is also always from someone who places a dollar amount on their time and factors that into the cost of handloading.

No matter what anyone says to the contrary, any time that I spend not working by choice has no dollar value. It has value, I would never claim that it doesn't. However, since I work a set number of hours a week at my job, I have no ownership in my own business, and I choose not to engage in other activities to earn money in my off time, it does not "cost" me anything to spend my time doing whatever I choose, whether I enjoy the activity (like handloading) or not (like mowing the grass). You might tell me that point of view is contrary to that of an economists. I don't care, I'll be he doesn't totally live the principle either.

Is it really worthwhile to consider the "cost" of everything one does in life? How much do I "loose" by sleeping eight hours a night? Could I make more money if I only slept six? I like going to the range, but it will "cost" me three hours that I could be working and making money, so perhaps I shouldn't go.

Perhaps posting on the internet to people like me who think your argument is unrealistic, even if technically true, isn't cost effective either. How much did it cost you to read this thread?

My point is that putting a monetary value on everything, and spending the necessary time trying to decide if any given activity is "worth it" isn't a particularly relaxing way to live, and might eventually contribute to the shortening of one's finite time on the planet.

Here, I'll say it. Even if you value your time at $40 per hour, you can reload for less than equivalent factory ammo if you buy in bulk and use a progressive press. At least you are right about one thing in your misguided rant against some strawman somewhere, you do determine the value of your free time through your choices.

OK, so how much do you pay yourself to handload, and how much do you save when including that cost?

wilkersk
September 29, 2009, 08:04 PM
Wow, "Opportunity Cost"!

I took a couple of semesters of accounting in college. The guy teaching the course was an MBA/CPA who worked locally and taught evening courses at the college as a side job.

He once said that the only good reason for applying the "opportunity cost" model to your spare time, is to convince the wife that hiring a roofer was better than trying to teach yourself to roof.

What's the opportunity cost of watching TV vs say, learning to speak Farsi? ................>

Exactly!

JimKirk
September 29, 2009, 08:32 PM
I mad as hell! Somebody been crapping me out my pay! Somebody been listening to the prez too much ....what they ain't no free health care! And just think I thought my free time was mine to do with it what I choose! I'm getting me a lawyer!

JK

ranger335v
September 29, 2009, 08:45 PM
"It is the same reason I pay people to fix my car now. I could fix 99% of the issues with it myself but I'd rather pay a mechanic to do it using the money I earned from trading my daytime hours for dollars because the time I spend with my family while the mechanic is working is worth more than the savings in dollars I would receive by using my time to fix the car. Similarly, this post has cost me something in terms of productivity but I accept that because I've enjoyed driving home the simple principle of opportunity cost more than the sales I may have lost. Worth every penny to preach the message, do not UNDERVALUE your time, it is the biggest disservice you can do to yourself."

Deavis, I disagree to some degree but, maybe since I ain't no touch-feely, PC college prof your comments don't offend me at all.

You have "preached" a good sermon, points well made and explained. But, like many preachers, it seems to me that you miss the point. Loading IS something and it has value in that, but any attempt to equate the "value" of our time as if it has some intrinsic value is nonsense. Our time has no value only if we are doing nothing with it. How we do that is up to us of course, we DO use it, and balance that use in ways that seem good to us but mey seem foolish to others. Let others go chase silly golf balls, I have better - to me - things to do! And it doesn't bother me a bit that hoards of other guys are on the links on Saturday while I'm at the riange, in fact I'm GLAD they are "wasting" their "free" time!

Trying to equat the "value" of free time without including the recreational aspect of any activity means nothing, at least not to most of us. My "work time" has value (or did when I had a job) and I expect to be fully paid for it. But, my free time is my own and I'll spend it as I wish, otherwise it WOULD be worthless to me! When I wish, I go to church or a movie, nap or reload, mow grass or plant flowers, fish or shoot. We all do, and we don't do a cost to benefit analysis on it to see if it's worth our time.

My original observation that reloading isn't really cost effective for most of us was for MOST of us, not all of us. And then I pointed out that the cost:benefit consideration is irrelivant, we do it because we enjoy it. And that doesn't translate to anyone saying they have chores or loading we can do for them. If a man is too lazy to work he should not eat (2 Thess 3:10-12), nor should he get to shoot reloads.

BO's illusions aside, NO ONE else has right to claim a share of either my pay or my time simply because they would like some of me!

angus6
September 29, 2009, 09:21 PM
maybe he's right , I like to shoot 147gr 9mm , looked online and the cheapest I saw was$328.00 K , I can reload them in 2.5 hrs for $133 , looks to me like I'm making about $78 an hr , shoot I can't afford to go to work for my $25 an hr rate think I'll call in sick :D

Shrinkmd
September 29, 2009, 10:10 PM
The economic argument applies to many other things, but life is about meaning, and not just the money.

If you make your own coffee in the morning, it is yours. Not Starbucks or whoever elses. And if you pack your own lunch, make your own sandwich, etc. How about bake your own bread (every now and then) or make up a batch of real oatmeal, not the horrible chemical microwave stuff. Add some real cinnamon and honey, throw in some raisins.

Or make up a nice batch of 200 gr SWC for your 1911. Try buying those in a store these days. Better yet, obsessively measure group sizes by powder charge, type, and seating depth. Turn your plane jane plinker into a target gun.

You get the point. Life is to be lived and enjoyed. I know I enjoy shooting more when its my own loads, both because I made them (assembled anyway) and because I can concentrate on the target better when I'm not thinking about how expensive the &%*%# ammo is! And reloading time is like gun cleaning time, just part of the sport.

MikeS.
September 29, 2009, 11:08 PM
Forget all the economics, I reload to have ammo when I want. Not when WM might get some in.

PT1911
September 29, 2009, 11:18 PM
to me, reloading to save money is like buying a new car to save gas... doesnt really work.. at least...it takes quite a while before it does...


I want to get into reloading for simple reasons.. I would like to get into working on some loads for my guns, and I dont like having to depend on ammo manufacturers to supply my ammunition needs.

when I start reloading, I will continue to buy ammunition just as i do now, whenever I feel I need it. But there will be no fear of when it will be hard to get which caliber.


Of course this is all dependent on component availability.. I wont even buy a press until I feel confident I can get the components I need.



ALSO, I doubt I will get a progressive press.... at least initially.. I feel one added benefit that most seem to forget to reloading is the fact that you are putting time and work into it... may slow down the rate of fire a bit...aim, squeeze, bang, and repeat... rather than just bang bang bang.

wilkersk
September 30, 2009, 02:48 PM
Ya know, when I started this thread, I thought I'd just come up with a good argument for why I need to buy a new Dillon XL650 with the case feeder. I figured maybe someone else might be looking for a similiar excu.....(er, ...reason?) yeah, ....REASON!:D

LeonCarr
September 30, 2009, 03:05 PM
I never thought a thread about Economics would actually get responses :).

I could not afford to shoot if I did not handload. I enjoy the reloading part and the shooting part.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

ranger335v
September 30, 2009, 06:30 PM
MikeS.: " Forget all the economics, I reload to have ammo when I want. Not when WM might get some in."

Good one Mike, that's an intellectually valid response, right on the "money" too!

JimKirk
October 1, 2009, 12:16 AM
Really, The time I spend reloading is some of the most enjoyable time I spend. I'm this technical type that thrives on getting things to work the way I want them to work. Saving some $$ is a by-product of reloading for me. Shooting is only a means to an end, seeing what you built preform like you want or you can figure out way it does not. Fishing almost never repays it total cost, I could buy fish cheaper! Hunting is the same, I could buy prime beef cheaper! Golfing...ever tried to eat one them little white balls ...if all you want is to have a beer wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy the beer to start with?

Jimmy K

Maj Dad
October 1, 2009, 01:17 AM
to kick back and relax. Lose the calculator and focus on the sunshine and a Corona. Everything you say is logical and well thought out, and you are spot on, but sound wound just a tad tight. Take it from your long lost (and late learning) cousin: Chill, compadre... ;)

Deavis
October 2, 2009, 03:49 AM
You weren't even addressing me and I took it personally.
Nobody works 24/7 (at least for long), and everybody needs downtime which is (usually) never compensated.

Did I address anyone personally or did I attack their argument? I'm sorry I'm not polite enough for you, but I like being honest. There is a difference between pointing out ignorance in an argument and calling someone ignorant. I'm not going to flame you, but as an economic professor, if there is something fundamentally wrong with my argument, then point it out.


We all do, and we don't do a cost to benefit analysis on it to see if it's worth our time.

I beg to differ, we all do it automatically. We just don't think about it. That's why nobody will take me up on the offer to reload for me for nothing on their "free" time... because it is worth something and they instantly make a calculation that says, "My free time is worth more than $0, no thanks Deavis." How about I offer some of you $100 an hour to reload for me on your "free" time or your SWMBO scratching time? I bet SWMBO wouldn't mind a new necklace and would be happy to trade you for a couple of 8 hour days.

Everything you say is logical and well thought out, and you are spot on, but sound wound just a tad tight.

Just honest these days, there is no point in spending time fluttering around the point, better to just get it out there.

Asherdan
October 2, 2009, 01:34 PM
Deavis, I think you're dismissing the concept of non-monetary compensation in favor of only monetary compensation. The guys talking about free time and enjoyment in a technical task are bringing that one up, it is real world applicable and does have an assignable value.

Also, when I reload, not only am I compensating myself in a non-monetary fashion, but I'm producing a material good usable by me for 1/3 to 1/2 the counter price in the cartrdges I reload for, since I'm well past the stage of recouping tooling costs. Depending on caliber my hourly monetary compensation (derived by my material cost vs. retal cost differential) runs from $18 to $32 per hour. I view it as paying myself, same as doing a brake job for $67 in parts & tools plus my time, rather than the $220 dealer cost (also a recent personal example).

This is still an individual value judgement. The monetary/non-monetary compensation is worth it to me. Someone else may have their non-monetary aspect run into the negative, changing the total compensation ratio in favour of other options.

Landric
October 2, 2009, 03:38 PM
I beg to differ, we all do it automatically. We just don't think about it. That's why nobody will take me up on the offer to reload for me for nothing on their "free" time... because it is worth something and they instantly make a calculation that says, "My free time is worth more than $0, no thanks Deavis." How about I offer some of you $100 an hour to reload for me on your "free" time or your SWMBO scratching time? I bet SWMBO wouldn't mind a new necklace and would be happy to trade you for a couple of 8 hour days.

Of course no one has volunteered to load for you for free. Time spent working for someone else is by definition no longer free time, and it should be compensated. I handload for the various benefits I get out of it, not because my time is valueless to me. Again, I point out that no one here has said that their time has no value, just that time outside work doesn't have monetary value.

Provided I had the proper licenses and insurance, I'd be happy to load for you for $100 an hour, but at that point it becomes work time and is no longer my time. Since you are paying me, its your choice how I spend those hours, not mine.

jeepmor
October 3, 2009, 02:24 AM
Do you judge your free time doing what ever it is you do based on what you could be making if you were at work?

Yes, my free time is worth more to me than my work time, in dollars. Work gets a lot out of me. Time off is oh so precious when you've been starting up the largest solar factory in America. It's a real grind, truly, I'm a grind engineer. I knew what I was getting into, but oh brother, my free time has evaporated. That said, I started my reloading endeavour for cost savings and clearly got it before my current job. Translated, I had 3-4 days off a week, every week, and I could make thousands of rounds if I chose too. And a few times I did. I did the math and figured it all out once. If you want a quick return or need the right math to convince the wife, build rifle cartridges first. Adds up much, much quicker that way.

Before I started the new job, I moved to a LNL progressive press so my time could be more productive for pistol loading. Plus I got in on that 1k free bullet deal, did some math there too. I bought an LNL bushing kit for my single stage so I could save time from being overly anal getting that last 0.001" out of my die settings. Now I drop in, give a firm twist, and go. I do wish the setting on my LNL matched the setting on the single stage bushing so there was not adjustment from one to the other, but oh well.

I've purchased stashes of cases, bullets, primers and powders so I don't have to run to the store to get the require accoutrements. I timed myself for a 100 rounds once and figured I was making 300 rounds an hour no matter what I was cranking out. That savings adds up quickly when you factor your time in.

I saw a bunch of lifestyle change coming years in advance and took advantage of my wife and I's DINK status while I had the extra deniro with her working. She's a stay at home Mom now, 3-4 years after starting reloading. The kid's almost two now, so the time saving of the progressive makes a single evening of work very productive.

Now, I just need to find more time to do the shooting, it's deer season and I have not even sighted my rifle in yet this year. Been working, a lot.

That's my story. Reloading is a hobby for me. I have several hobbies that save me money, reloading is just one of them. The other, I'm good with my hands as I grew up in a woodshop/metal/fabrication environment since I was 13 y/o. I just dig that kind of stuff and reloading is just another extension of that.

jeepmor

RustyFN
October 3, 2009, 08:50 PM
Don't forget to count your time, it is not free. Any analysis that excludes it is short-sighted. Don't give me the whole, "I like reloading" or "reloading is relaxing, it doesn't cost me anything," spiel, that isn't the point. Your free time is worth something, generally it should be valued at the money you could be making in that time OR the monetary translation of other activities you could be doing that are rewarding for you.

If any of you value your free time at $0, then come talk to me, I'd be happy to employ you to reload for me at that rate 24/7. I'll even throw in a copy of Thoma Sowell's, "Basic Economics," to cure you of your opportunity cost ill

You are 100% right. This is what I figure my time is worth to reload. I cast my own bullets for 45 auto. I get all the lead for free so I figure the bullet material as being free. I use range pick-up brass so I have never had to buy brass. The only thing I have to buy to reload are powder and primers. I am loading 45 auto for $30 per 1,000. Factory 45 auto would cost around $450 so I am saving $420. I have seven hours invested in casting and loading those 1,000 rounds so my time is worth $60 per hour. At least that what I figure I'm getting paid to reload my own ammo because of the savings. Some how I think this is the opposite of your point. :D

Ky Larry
October 4, 2009, 04:02 PM
Maybe we're missing the real relationship between reloading, shooting, and cost. New reloaders tell me they spend just as much on components as they did on factory ammo. Reloading just lets them shoot a lot more for the same dollars. Like, DUH. I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I figured this out 35 years ago. The question is,"Does reloading save money?" The answer is a definate yes, no, sometimes, and "It depends on how you look at it.":neener:

SharpsDressedMan
October 4, 2009, 08:07 PM
Some people have concluded that reloading doesn't save you money, it just allows you to shoot more for the same price. If you don't like to shoot much, or have unlimited funds, you do not NEED to reload. If you have more time than money, or are willing to part with SOME time, reloading may be for you. If you just like to SHOOT, at all costs, reloading is time well (and often enjoyably) spent.

Landric
October 5, 2009, 12:32 AM
I have also noticed that folks who bring of these "value of time" arguments never seem to count the time they spend at the range as part of the "cost" of shooting. The logic seems to go that "shooting is fun" and "handloading couldn't possibly be fun", so I'll count my time spent handloading as money lost, but the time I spend on the range is fun, so I won't count that as money lost. These same people then get upset when someone suggests they count their time on the range the same way they say they count handloading.

What these people see to miss is that some of us (myself included) enjoy handloading as much as shooting. In fact, I like handloading so much that the time I enjoy most on the range is testing my newly worked up handloads.

The bottom line is that if one doesn't enjoy handloading, one shouldn't do it. It will never save enough money to make up for the time spend doing it if one doesn't like it.

qajaq59
October 5, 2009, 04:05 PM
Don't forget to count your time, it is not free. Do you figure a cost for your time when you go skiing, fishing or golfing? If not, then this hobby is no different. And if you do..... Well, so be it.

RKRCPA
October 5, 2009, 05:08 PM
All I know is, I started reloading 30 years ago and it has been costing me money ever since. I load cheap ammo so I can shoot more. I shoot more and then I want a new gun. Then I buy more relaoding stuff so I can shoot. Then I buy a new gun.......

Reloading has cost me a fortune in the last 30 years, it's almost as bad as my motorcycle. (But I get good gas mileage)

Roccobro
October 5, 2009, 06:00 PM
And with the national unemployment rate at almost 10%, all this opportunity cost=dollars talk is invalid. Not many people can just say "hey, I'm going to make my hourly wage for the next 2 hours" and make it so.

I believe in magic. But arguing my point with internal "logic" won't convince everyone else of this "fact".

But obviously Beavis enjoys wasting his time here vs. making USD currnecy. I know I do. I'll take that $0 he promised to do that!!!! :p

Justin
(back to slobbering on my feet...aka teaching economics to NON-students)

Roccobro
October 5, 2009, 06:09 PM
Sombody plug in the numbers in quickcalc for me. If I work 12 hours days and I reload (WHILE WORKING!) for 2 hours each day, what are my opportunity costs????
#s:
assume likely to keep job = 99%
assume $43/hr
Assume 1.5x$43/hr is I skip my lunch break (I eat on the clock when nobody is watching)
assume I was drooling on my feet while working anyways.....
Assume I sell said ammo to boss holding my future position
And said loads are 18.0gr of TG behind a 200gr bullet for his Ruger Blackhawk
et al ad nauseum :barf:

Justin

RustyFN
October 5, 2009, 09:12 PM
What these people see to miss is that some of us (myself included) enjoy handloading as much as shooting. In fact, I like handloading so much that the time I enjoy most on the range is testing my newly worked up handloads.

I'm with you there. That's why I haven't bought factory ammo for the last three years. Sometimes I think I shoot so I can reload. The same thing for me with casting bullets.

All I know is, I started reloading 30 years ago and it has been costing me money ever since. I load cheap ammo so I can shoot more. I shoot more and then I want a new gun. Then I buy more relaoding stuff so I can shoot. Then I buy a new gun.......

It's a vicious cycle RKR. :D

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