[Broadbill]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP? Are there performance factors I don't know about? Is it tradition and just the way its supposed to be?
I know that I don't want to shoot sabots and 209's.

And if BP what are the differences?
I looked at Grafs quickly and saw;
Goex
Goex Express
Graf-Alder
Swiss
and I'm sure there are others.

Whats what?
And while I'm on the subject, what would a good book be so that I can leave you guys alone?

Broadbill

[Cosmoline]

They don't have the same properties. They are more difficult to ignite and behave differently, esp. from a flinter. They're probably fine for a modern in-line I suppose, since that's really what they were made for. But it's not the same experience.

All true modern black powder is essentially the same combination of minerals with the addition of graphite. The variation comes from the quality of the ingredients and the care of selection, but the big difference is simply from how finely it's ground. Way back in the early days of BP in Europe and China, the alchemists would make it in a true powder form, like talc. It burned very poorly when packed into barrels tightly. It also had the very unfortunate habit of turning into dust clouds that were highly explosive so making it was very hazardous. Then someone figured out how to mill it wet and make it into corn-like grains, then sort the grains by running them over wire screens. That's pretty much what we use now, 400 years later.

[sundance44s]

The nature of the beast works best with real black powder ..with all its smells and nasty fouling.
Think about it this way ...gas powered cars and trucks run best on ...petro , gas , black gold .
folks keep trying to replace it with subs ....and they`ll run on corn and mistery fuels ...but they`ll run best on dino fuel ..thats the stuff thats been here since dirt .
real black powder has been around since dirt also .
Inline rifles ....thats another beast . no comment in that direction from me .

[SHIPCHIEF]

What They Said!
I have Goex, 777, and Pyrodex. I play with them all, but I trust real blackpowder the most.
777 sure does clean up well.
Real BP cleans up well, but leaves the cleaning tools in a mess. Really no big deal. The barrel gets fouled after a few shots, and you should run a bore brush down, then tilt the barrel down to let the ash run out the barrel, but it's no big deal.
When you hunt, you might need to reload once or twice? so Pyrodex and 777 don't really have that much of an advantage over Blackpowder in a practical sense.
Use what you like.

[arcticap]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP?

They are similar to an extent but don't have the same properties.
Black powder burns differently because it's an explosive with a lower ignition temperature rather than just being flammable like the substitutes.
Using sundance44's analogy, it's sort of like the difference between gasoline and diesel.

Are there performance factors I don't know about?

Yes, people notice differences in consistency and accuracy in some guns. Every gun is different. The difference might only be noticiable at long range or if precision shooting depending on all kinds of variables.

Is it tradition and just the way its supposed to be?

Yes and no.
Some of the semi-custom long barrels are designed to be shot with black powder. They have very deep rifling, some with round bottom grooves that are designed to hold more of the black powder fouling.
Many factory guns have shallow rifling that just can't hold as much powder fouling.
It is a matter of tradition and to some extent performance too.

And while I'm on the subject, what would a good book be so that I can leave you guys alone?

There may be different editions of these books which may be available from a local library.

"The Complete Black Powder Handbook" by Sam Fadala

"The Lyman Black Powder Handbook" from the Lyman Company

"The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" by Sam Fadala

[JCT]

I've given 777 a fair shot, had a couple pounds for a few years. Nice and clean, horribly unreliable and hygroscopic. After sitting over a year in a flask, it's a puck ...break it up and load your chambers and it won't fire. It's sugar based ( fructose or sucrose, i forget )..bad idea if you ask me. Black powder has no expiration date, is non toxic, cheap and easy to clean with soap and water.
I tried pyrodex too...corrosive as hell, guns will rust the day you shoot them. I guess the word " Fad" comes to mind. BP has been around 100's of years, subs for only a short time. I think they got it right the first time with BP. Try the alder based or swiss if you do. Cleaner , hotter and less corrosive. Willow and Alder make the very best black powders.

[zimmerstutzen]

Pyrodex is an invention without a benefit. When it was developed black powder was strictly classed ass an exxplosive. All kinds of shipping and storage regulations, accomodations (special storgae vaults) and rules that made it just to darn difficult for some to obtain or carry in stock. Pyrodex, although more corrosive was classed ass a propellant annd could be shipped and stored like any other "white" gun powder. Stores could carry it on the shelf without the special shipping and storage vaults that holy black necessitated. Skip forward thirty years. Black can be shipped. It still requires some special storage, but somewhhat lightened shipping rules, it is not quite as difficult as years back.

So Pyrodex's main advantage was in shipping and storage regs and restrictions. It had nothing to do with whether it was cleaner or less corrosive. It just isn't, on either count.

Trip 7 while cleaner, just doeesn't have the igniteability, consistency or reliability of holy black.

I have nothing against anything new. But for there to be an advantage, it either has to be cheaper, cleaner, less corrosive or more reliable. As yet I have not tried any substitute that is overall better than black. I imagine that the day will come, just isn't here yet.

[arcticap]

Pyrodex is an invention without a benefit.

Pyrodex P usually produces noticiably more velocity from revolvers than blackpowder.

So Pyrodex's main advantage was in shipping and storage regs and restrictions. It had nothing to do with whether it was cleaner or less corrosive. It just isn't, on either count.

Many people really believe and claim just the opposite that Pyrodex P is cleaner than Goex.
Many people on this forum shoot with Pyrodex and are happy with it.

Every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
No powder only has advantages.
Even though they all work, none of them are immune from having some defects and flaws. :)

[zimmerstutzen]

Most substitutes produce more pressure than black. I don't care what most believe. Take two cups of water, add 200 grains of black to one and 200 grains of Pyromania to the other, mix well and test the PH. Proof positive. no belief necessary.

Another test. take two shallow steel bowls. light 50 grain piles of black in one, say 5 times and do the same with Pryro in the other. Put them in a closet for two weeks and then check to see which has rusted most.

[Jim Watson]

I shoot real BP because I shoot competitive BPCR and the fakes won't do the job.

[Mike OTDP]

I'm with Jim Watson. If you shoot in serious competition, the substitutes are a very poor option.

[fyrfyter43]

When it was developed black powder was strictly classed ass an exxplosive. All kinds of shipping and storage regulations, accomodations (special storgae vaults) and rules that made it just to darn difficult for some to obtain or carry in stock.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Black powder was still easily available without all the storage and shipping regulations that we have to deal with now when Pyrocrap first came out. I vividly remember buying GOEX right off the shelf in a local gun shop 25 years ago...it was right next to the Pyrocrap.

[fyrfyter43]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP?

None of the substitutes have the same properties as black powder. For one, ignition temperature is much higher for the substitutes. And I honestly don't believe that any of them are less corrosive or easier to clean. It really doesn't get much easier than soap and water for black powder. And have you ever seen a gun that wasn't properly cleaned after shooting Pyrocrap? I recently saw one that was put away for about 6 months without being cleaned. The rifling is mostly gone, and there are pits so deep I would be afraid to fire it with even a light charge.

Black powder is also a good deal cheaper than ANY of the substitute powders. This is from a post I made less than a month ago: "I just checked Cabela's website. The cheapest substitute they have is Pyrodex at $19.16 per lb. shipped (for a 25 lb case, provided Cabelas can ship 25 lbs in a single case) . 3F GOEX is $15.97 per lb shipped from Grafs (also for a 25 lb case). With a little bit of shopping around, it can be found a bit cheaper. "

Black powder is readily available in the continental U.S. The last case of powder I ordered from Grafs was delivered to my place of employment within 5 days. A little bit of advance planning ensures that I always have enough BP on hand.

[mykeal]

fyrfyter43 is correct. 35 years ago Goex and Dupont were on the counter at my local outfitter, then Pyrodex came along. Both were available side by side for a long time. This issue about having to keep real black powder in a locked magazine is a more recent thing.

[arcticap]

I'm with Jim Watson. If you shoot in serious competition, the substitutes are a very poor option.

Conversely, for many serious hunters who hunt with fast twist barrels, black powder would be a poor option.

Here's an inline design marked Billinghurst that's documented in 1860. Similar to the inline design of cap & ball revolvers, the flame takes a shorter and more direct path to the powder. It's just an improved alternative design, that's all. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106331&stc=1&d=1254255700

[fyrfyter43]

Conversely, for many serious hunters who hunt with fast twist barrels, black powder would be a poor option.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Just like with any muzzleloader, load development is a key step that is so often overlooked by those shooting inlines with substitute powders.

[arcticap]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Just like with any muzzleloader, load development is a key step that is so often overlooked by those shooting inlines with substitute powders.

Well I don't know if it's necessarily true that competition pistol shooters are better off shooting black powder either as others have suggested.
I guess in the end each individual decides what shoots best in their own gun, whether that's competition, hunting or plinking, revolvers, rifles, or shotguns.

The greater amount of flames, smoke and residue alone that are created by shooting black powder is not always more desirable for every kind of shooting.

Revolvers are prone to binding.
That's not even mentioning the differences in velocity which has hunting applications.
The question doesn't just pertain to target shooting since the original poster is a deer hunter. And even if he wasn't, velocity can affect distance and flat trajectory.
There's also BPCR shooters who prefer substitute powders.
Competition shooting is only a part of muzzle loading.
It's not the whole sport, so why not acknowlege the truth that each powder has some good and bad aspects? :rolleyes:

[fyrfyter43]

Well I don't know if it's necessarily true that competition pistol shooters are better off shooting black powder either as others have suggested.
I guess in the end each individual decides what shoots best in their own gun, whether that's competition, hunting or plinking, revolvers, rifles, or shotguns.

The greater amount of flames, smoke and residue alone that are created by shooting black powder is not always more desirable for every kind of shooting.

Revolvers are prone to binding.
That's not even mentioning the differences in velocity which has hunting applications.
The question doesn't just pertain to target shooting since the original poster is a deer hunter. And even if he wasn't, velocity can affect distance and flat trajectory.
There's also BPCR shooters who prefer substitute powders.
Competition shooting is only a part of muzzle loading.
It's not the whole sport, so why not acknowlege the truth that each powder has some good and bad aspects? :rolleyes:
I don't know either whether competition pistol shooters are better off with black powder. Then again, nobody has claimed that black powder is better for competition pistol shooters. I personally have never fired a single shot in any kind of competition, other than friendly, informal shoots at the range or online "postal" shoots. I am strictly a hunter.

You say that revolvers are prone to binding. The last time I had my Uberti 1860 at the range I put 72 balls through it using GOEX FFFg. It was still turning without even a hint of drag, much less binding. I made no effort to clean it while I was at the range. The only reason I didn't keep shooting was because I had to pick my daughter up from school. I really doubt that any substitute powder would do any better than that.

I really could not care less about a minor claimed increase in velocity by switching to a more corrosive, more expensive substitute powder. If a slight increase in velocity makes that big of a difference in the range and trajectory of your projectile, then you are definitely pushing the envelope of effective range. I know precisely what my PRB will do within my effective range. A slight increase in velocity would not have enough of an effect to matter at all when it comes to hunting accuracy.

Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?

[zimmerstutzen]

Fyrfytr: Actually, that's not entirely true. Black powder was still easily available without all the storage and shipping regulations that we have to deal with now when Pyrocrap first came out. I vividly remember buying GOEX right off the shelf in a local gun shop 25 years ago...it was right next to the Pyrocrap.

While I share your sentiments about pyro, 35 years ago, I worked in sporting goods stores.. Black powder had to be shipped by special freight, had to be stored in special expensive magazines and for over certain amounts had to be in special bunkers. (I had a tour of the bunker behind Ron Shirk Shooter's Supplies years back.) Black was not supposed to be on the shelf, but kept in the reinforced magazines. Looked like metal ice chests on wheels. Although many shops flaunted the rules and had it on the shelf. (Some had it out only during store hours and packed away when closed.) There was a time that a purchaser had to sign a form to get it. Zoning rules in many jurisdictions made it illegal to store black in stores, etc. In some states, licensed day care homes could not have explosives on premises. Stores were limited by BATF to 50 lbs of black with the small magazines and permanent magazines were required to have higher amounts. What you see and saw in the stores was often in violation of the rules. Actually fear of terrorists drove much of the regs back then. For three or four years I had to sign a log sheet and show my drivers license for every black powder purchase I made. The announcement of Pyrodex seemed like deliverance from all the regs and limits.

Pyrodex could be shipped and sold like any other reload powder. It could sit on the shelf and be shipped UPS. I purchased a can of Pyrodex in 1983, still have most of it. It near ate my rifle from the inside. But it had been announced and touted in the press for a few years before that. As I recall, the factory had an explosion and that delayed mass production for nearly a year.

[arcticap]

Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?

I already did in my reply in Post #5 which is below:

Are there performance factors I don't know about?

Yes, people notice differences in consistency and accuracy in some guns. Every gun is different. The difference might only be noticiable at long range or if precision shooting depending on all kinds of variables.

[zimmerstutzen]

Articap. I have never had a revolver bind up, even after 120 shots. I do however load with the lube on top the ball to seal the chamber. That way the face of the cylinder, forcing cone and bore are all spattered and spread with reesidue-softening lube before the powder fouling hits it. I theorize that binding up is experienced more by the shooters who use wonder wads under the ball and forego any lube.

[ClemBert]

Part of the problem with the bad reviews on 777 is that some people (and you know who you are) fail to read the instructions. The two biggest mistakes people who don't/can't read instructions is they:

1. Fail to reduce the 777 load by 15% to get the same power factor as black powder.
2. Compress 777 like it is black powder. This will cause accuracy problems. Don't do it!

Geez fellas...just do a little reading and you'll figure out the differences between black powder and substitutes. All powders have their pro's and con's. There is no silver bullet (pun intended). :D

[BaltimoreBoy]

I don't consider myself a 'serious' BP shooter. Still I have been satisfied with Pyrodex in my stainless Ruger New Model Old Army. Your choice probably depends on the use you intend to put the substitute to.

[fyrfyter43]

zimmerstutzen, you may be correct about BP storage requirements in the past. Or maybe there were different requirements from state to state?

I was fairly young when Pyrocrap first was introduced. However, I remember seeing it on the shelf alongside cans of GOEX. This is in several gun shops that I used to frequent, including one that catered heavily to the law enforcement community. In fact, for many years they were the only somewhat-local source for uniforms, gun leather and other law enforcement equipment. I can assure you that they would not have had black powder on the shelf if they were not legally allowed to.

And yes, there was an explosion in the Pyrocrap plant that killed its inventor, Dan Pawlak, on January 27, 1977.

[fyrfyter43]

Also, according to an article I read today, one of the raw materials used to make Pyrocrap is dicyanamide. According to the article, the packaging has large bright red warning labels on all sides of these bags that say "avoid heat or flame, when heated to decomposition emits highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

[hushnel]

I don't care for substitute black powder, or is it synthetic black powder. I had a can of it back in the 80s and wasn’t impressed. If you like the way is shoots use it, I believe modern muzzle loaders are designed around it so they may work better with it but I wouldn’t know. I don’t even mind all the editorializing coughing and hacking that goes on around me when I’m at the range with the old .54 Renegade.

[BHP FAN]

''Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?''

I always have and always do.Goex is my brand,though I've used Swiss and Elephant.I do NOT like Pyrodex, and will not take it when it's given to me for free.I've even used pyrodex in my garden just to get [I]rid of it after it ruined a favorite flask.It's good for roses is about all I can say about it that's kind.

[SHIPCHIEF]

In light of the warning against compressing 777, I wouldn't use it in a cap n ball revolver. When you swage the oversized balls into the cylinder, you inadvertantly compress the charge.
Besides, the fireball and smoke from the Blackpowder is expected and appreciated.
The previous comment about placing lube over the balls in the cylinder is key to success, and a prudent safety measure.
Still, no matter what propellant you use, the gun must be cleaned right away.
It should be swabbed out the next day, and, depending on what that patch shows, more cleaning.
Off topic a bit, but my crusty Moisin Nagant needs to be swabbed out every day for a week after shooting.

[BHP FAN]

Chief,if you clean the barrel with VERY hot water or alcohol before your usual cleaning,you can just check it a week later[and you should,just to be sure ],and it'll still sparkle.The corrosive salts just need to be neutralized.

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

I only shoot competition and black powder only. I have tried all of the other
kind and all of the serious pistol shooters shoot black. Why? accuracry plain
and simple. Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.

[Broadbill]

Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.


That says it right there.

BB

[mykeal]

one of the raw materials used to make Pyrocrap is dicyanamide. According to the article, the packaging has large bright red warning labels on all sides of these bags that say "avoid heat or flame, when heated to decomposition emits highly toxic fumes of cyanide."

Nearly the same as elemental sulfur, which is used in black powder. The only difference is the product of combustion, but the health hazard is identical - H2S is highly toxic and causes pulmonary edema that can occur up to 48 hours after exposure amongst other things.

[madcratebuilder]

I only shoot competition and black powder only. I have tried all of the other
kind and all of the serious pistol shooters shoot black. Why? accuracry plain
and simple. Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.

kwhi43 is one of the more serious black powder shooters that walk the planet. You can take what says to the bank.

[SHIPCHIEF]

BHP;
I use boiling water to finish cleaning after a soapy scubbing, but I never tried alcohol.
Just denatured alcohol from the drugstore? Or something stronger?
I'm pretty sure the boiling hot barrel dries quickly, and I dry patch it to be sure after it cools. The final swab with alcohol does sound like a 'belt and suspenders' approach.
I have always final swabbed with Hoppes #9. Never had a rusty barrel in 30 years.
Now Hoppes has #9 for blackpowder. What is different about it?
I just used it the first time this week. Not sure yet.
Anyway, on topic: I try the others, but I trust BP the most. I kept my 2nd model Dragoon loaded for near a year, with Crisco over the balls, and it fired perfectly. It was my home defense gun when I was a young student.
So I trust black powder because I'm conservative, and it has proven it's worth to me.

[BHP FAN]

Yeah,Chief,just drug store or Winco cheapo alcohol.In my milsurps,I clean with a patch soaked in boiling water,or alcohol,then a boresnake or brush .I use WD40 instead of solvent,it chases any residual water out.A final dry patch, a little light machine oil on any working parts, and I'm done.This works pretty good for me.I have a pretty good little collection,and some of them only get out maybe once in a year.Before the alcohol treatment I used to have to clean 'em all weekly,because of the commie milsurp ammo I use.If you have even a modest sized collection,I bet it gets old pretty quick.Same treatment works for black powder as well.

[BHP FAN]

I love Hoppes no. 9, but for black powder, Birchwood Casey # 77 solvent is really tough to beat.When I'm at the range I always have a bottle to moisten a brush or patch with.I think it's just alcohol with a tea spoon of transmission fluid in it,though.

[Mr_Pale_Horse]

Moreover, there is BP, and there is Swiss BP. There are smokeless powders (Unique anyone?) that leave more fouling that Swiss 3F.

[BHP FAN]

I THINK the secret to Swiss is in the graphite content.

[SHIPCHIEF]

BHP
I just read a bit from Chuckhawks Black powder page about different sources of carbon for black powder over the years. Some being called Brown powder by using a selected species of wood which was then under charred (hence, brown).
Here's the link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm
So your opinion seems possible.

[JCT]

Graphite glaze on sporting ( Fg type ) powders, is only to help it flow and to be less susceptible to static. The secret to Swiss BP is Alder charcoal , where GOEX uses Maple. Alder and Willow are less dense hardwood, offer more surface areas and better pores for the oxidizer to get into. So you essentially get a hotter powder, which equates to faster and cleaner too.

[AbitNutz]

I must be doing something wrong. I've yet to try black powder. I've used Pyrodex 30/45 pellets, AAP and Triple 7. They all shot great. Trip 7 is definitely hotter but leaves almost no residue at all. The caps leave more dirt. I don't have misfires and I put the ROA in the dishwasher for cleaning and then squirt it with oil. Accuracy? It shoots better than I can and I'm shooting conical bullets which I'm frequently told don't shoot well.

The Triple 7 warnings don't exactly say "Do not compress". It says the following:

Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property.

Granted, I'm not sure who decides what "heavily compress" is. I am eager to now test how different compression affects accuracy.

I have to confess, I like Triple 7 but I'm shooting a 5 1/2" stainless revolver with fixed sites.

[BHP FAN]

The type of Charcoal itself,you say? Thanks Chief,and JCT. I LOVE this site.After very nearly forty years of playing with black powder guns,I'm still learning new stuff. So I wonder is it the tightness of grain of the parent wood the factor,or it's hardness?

[mykeal]

AbitNutz - the words you're quoting from Hogdgon's web site are for Triple 7 used in cartridges. The advice for Triple 7 in percussion guns is further down the page and doesn't mention compression per se. It does say:
Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile. (Emphasis is mine)
The advice about minding compression force in percussion guns is more anecdotal. It's been my experience, and I believe many others as well, that 'firmly seating' is the operative term; in other words, don't compress 777, rather seat the ball on the powder with enough authority that you're sure it's seated, but don't try to compress the powder. The performance of 777 when 'heavily' compressed is inconsistent, tending to FTF's rather than presenting any danger to the gun or shooter.

[AbitNutz]

It appears to me to be a matter of describing how you make metallic cartridges compared to loading black powder.

I think using a compound reloading press to "heavily compress" a Triple 7 load is well beyond the force that can be generated with a ramrod or revolver ram. So it looks to me, and like you I'm reading what I think it means more than what it says, that the term "heavily compress" (in Triple 7 speak) only relates to cartridges....thus why I used that quote. So can I "heavily compress" a load in a BP revolver, using my perhaps convoluted logic? I don't think I can.

Not to say you've not had FTF's in your experience with Triple 7 but I've fired just short of a pound of it so far with no such issue. What can I say? Your mileage may vary?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Funny damn thing to me. I have used 777 in my .45 inlines, my "47, my '58's, my '49's, and my .22 Mag Mini Revolvers and have NEVER had a problem. They all shoot a load that's as hot as hell for which ever gun and believe me I'vd done plenty of shooting, and they really need hardly any cleaning at all. Triple Seven is the cleanest burning, hardest hitting and most dependable powder on the market for blackpowder firearms hands down. Cannot be argued with or disputed honestly. (Now, I didn't say it had to be someone's favorite go to powder.)

[AbitNutz]

Amen bro! Sorry, got carried away...

[Smokin_Gun]

I'm sorry to have to beg to differ from you Gentleman of the Charcoal ... but 777 ain't never been close to black powder and never will be jus' by chemical make up alone. Nor if loaded in a wheel gun C&B... If a person used BP all his shootin' career then tried a lb/. of 777 they would have a hard time gettin' consistant loads. The reverse ain't true...
I'll guarentee you that much :O)

[ClemBert]

mykeal

The advice for Triple 7 in percussion guns is further down the page and doesn't mention compression per se.

Come to think about it the instructions concerning compression of 777 came from a phone call I made to Hodgdon's technical support staff. I thought I had also read this somewhere in Hodgdon's printed material and if that is not the case then I read it somewhere that seem credible...sorry I don't have a reference for ya. Ignore my advice if that seems like the right thing to do. :D

[Smokin_Gun]

Clembert the knowledge about compression comes from those BP users or 777users that have used both an commented as I did.
imho
:cool:

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Smoking Gun..Sir, didn't say it was close to the make up of black powder. What I was referring to STRICTLY was the power of the powder and the ability to get it from here to there with the most benefits and highly satisfactory results. Wasn't speaking ill of the Holy Black. 777 is a strong ass powder and that's why they tell you to reduce the load when using it....

[fyrfyter43]

Triple Seven is ... the most dependable powder on the market for blackpowder firearms hands down. Cannot be argued with or disputed honestly.

I would certainly have to disagree with you there. Ever tried it in a flintlock?

[BHP FAN]

Triple Seven is the prefered load in my .22 ''Magnum'' Companion, where I want all the ''poo'' I can get.I still prefer BP in everything else ,for consistancy.

[sundance44s]

How do you use 777 in a flinter ...light it with a propane tourch ?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

noise deleted

[arcticap]

Same old discussion only it's a different thread.
What's the point?
777 can be used in a flintlock in a duplex load.
I don't blame anyone for not wanting to use it in their flintlock, but it works with a small booster charge of black added and it has noticiably higher velocity potential than Goex and Swiss ffg.

See post #35 for some comparative chronograph velocity data from a flintlock:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469522&highlight=herb&page=2

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Now see?!! Ol' Articap came right in here and said what I meant exactly. Higher velocity, more bang for the buck in other words. Now can't we all just be friends and argue and cuss each other peacefully?!!....

[SHIPCHIEF]

I think the fact that 777 is hygroscopic precludes it's use in a muzzle loader or cap n ball revolver that is kept loaded for a long time, like for self defense.
Don't know for certain. Just that I had good results with very old BP, and also a 2nd Mdl Dragoon that was kept loaded with the same charge of BP for near a year without a missfire.
I know that's an unusual scenario, but it counts for something.
My new can of 777 didn't have a very good seal when I took off the cap for the first time. It was 'unstuck' about 30% the way around the rim.
The powder had a large soft clump in it. That clump did break up easily, and the powder shot well in my Renegade tho-.
Something to consider.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Shipchief, yes sir that is something to consider. I'vd never had that happen with any of the one pound plastic containers of 777 that I'vd ordered or received but if I found one like that I'd be raising hell. ( I know it wouldn't really do any good).
I don't keep my .45 inlines loaded, but my '47, 58's, '49's, .22 Mag Mini revolvers and my Cattleman's carbines have stayed loaded for extended periods of time at one time or the other and I'vd had no problems. I change the caps every couple of weeks or so and which ever ones I keep loaded are ball sealed with Crisco. (except for the .22Mini revolvers)....PS. I started out with BlackMag3 some years ago and then it got hard to find and that's when I went over to Triple Seven. Anyway, a couple of years or so ago I came across 2 pounds of the BlackMag3 that I had long since forgotten I even had. It had never been opened but it was hard as a rock. I deliberated awhile and then carefully cut the plastic containers open and ran all the powder through my ball mill for about 40 minutes the best I remember. Anyway it shot real good and now it's back on the market but I'll stay with my Triple Seven. Hell, I know black powder is good stuff. I just like Triple Seven better. It has more punch and is not near as dirty as black powder and I don't own or fire guns where ignition is a problem....

[Ratdog68]

My .45 Cherokee rifle and Patriot pistol both remained loaded with 777 from last fall's hunting season until June. Both fired flawlessly with the first try when I lit 'em off for a little target practice.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Ratdog, I just added a PS to my post *940. Please back up and read it....

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog, I just added a PS to my post *940. Please back up and read it....
Psst... each time you post the "post count" advances on each post you make... but, I saw your update. Inktristink tidbit.

[Smokin_Gun]

Smoking Gun..Sir, didn't say it was close to the make up of black powder.
I never said you said anything :O)

I jus' plain don't like Triple Se7en at all :what: HeeHee!

[Oyeboten]

So...


'Triple Seven' is harder to ignite than traditional Black Powder?


Hence...Flint Locks, one would use 4f BP for Priming, and, 777 for the main Charge?


BP Metallic Cartridge wise...would 777 be expected to behave alright?


And, would it be expected to deliver higher FPS?

[madcratebuilder]

'Triple Seven' is harder to ignite than traditional Black Powder?


If over compressed it can be.

And, would it be expected to deliver higher FPS?

Yes, even using it at it's recommended 15% reduced load it it seems hotter to me. I have no proof of this, just from looking at items I have shot with it.

Real black is getting harder and harder to find, there may come a day when the only thing we have to choose from is T7 and Pyrodex.

[mykeal]

777, and for that matter all other synthetic black powders, has a higher ignition temperature than real black powder. It isn't 'harder' to ignite, it just takes a higher temperature. Standard caps, and the gas produced by the powder in a flintlock priming pan, often don't achieve the higher temperature required, especially at the distance between the pan and the main charge in most flintlocks.

If you need (or want) to use 777 as the main charge in a flintlock, you should first load about 5 gr of real black powder, then load the 777. The small charge of real black in the barrel will ignite first from the priming charge in the pan and that will ignite the 777 since they are adjacent. You can use either fffg or ffffg real black powder in the pan.

777 should work well in cartridges as the normal rifle cartridge primers will produce sufficient heat to ignite it, and the powder is adjacent to the primer.

Real black powder is still routinely available from mail order outfitters. The issue isn't availability so much as cost - mail order involves paying a $22 hazardous material shipping fee, which most people are reluctant to do.

[BHP FAN]

I have used Triple Seven in my Trapdoor loads,and it was flatter shooting than even my favorite Goex.Smaller group too.On the other hand it costs me almost double what the real deal costs on a group buy from my BP club so,I'll stick [for the most part] with Goex.

[Ratdog68]

I never said you said anything :O)

I jus' plain don't like Triple Se7en at all :what: HeeHee!
Heretic ! :D

[Ratdog68]

I have used Triple Seven in my Trapdoor loads,and it was flatter shooting than even my favorite Goex.Smaller group too.On the other hand it costs me almost double what the real deal costs on a group buy from my BP club so,I'll stick [for the most part] with Goex.
I'm gonna have to do some digging. I have yet to find BP available at any of the retailers around me. Luckily... got at least two more guys I can split an order with. And, I do want to give it a shot... so to speak. :cool:

[Das Jaeger]

The only place left in the State this side of Eastern Washington is just outside Shelton Washington . Other than that , your screwed for BP .
Last time I bought was $22 a can , Goex .

Cheers, Jaeger

[Ratdog68]

Govt. always finds a way to screw the private sector. Hmmm... could be a reason to fuel up the scooter to get me some.

[Das Jaeger]

Hee hee hee . It isn't that they are trying to screw the private sector , they are trying to make it impossible to arm ourselves so we can take them out is what it is . TOO LATE , I AM ARMED ALREADY . :D

Jaeger

[Ratdog68]

Oh... that's just one facet... there's plenty of Governmental Carnal Knowledge going around... not JUST what it's trying to do with the 2nd Amendment rights for us.

[Pulp]

I reckon I'm weird :rolleyes:'cause I like any gunpowder that allows me to shoot my revolvers, shotguns and rifles. If it goes bang I like it. If it hits where I'm aiming I like it even better.:D

Seriously, BP is my favorite. I use PyrodexRS in my CAS shotgun loads 'cause after deer season here in Oklahoma I can get it at Walmart for about $10.00/lb. It's just plain cheaper to load, and shotguns eat a lot of powder.

I've loaded 777 in .44-40, 1.9cc. I can tell a difference, it is a hotter load than 2.2cc of Goex. Once I even loaded some FFFg 777. Let's just say I'm glad I shot it in my Rossi '92 first. That stuff was SERIOUS hot. I'm guessin' 1600 to 1700 fps. It wasn't a blind experiment, I called Hodgdon's, asked some questions, told him which gun I planned to use, and he said "go ahead and try it."

I did a test with my T/C Hawken, shooting the same amount of APP, 777, Pyrodex, and Goex FFg and FFFg. I don't remember the velocities off hand, but 777 was the fastest, then Pryodex, then Goex, and APP was the slowest.

Here's my take. If authenticity is important to you then use the Holy Black. If you just want to have fun, use whatever you want. If GOTC likes 777, has good luck with it and is having fun, then I'm all for it. If someone hates 777 well, there are other products. I don't like liver:eek:, but I bet there's someone here that does.

Broadbill, buy a pound or two of each. You'll figger out which is best for you. Doesn't matter what's best for me. And you'll be supporting the manufacturers, which is always a good thing.

[fyrfyter43]

Real black powder is still routinely available from mail order outfitters. The issue isn't availability so much as cost - mail order involves paying a $22 hazardous material shipping fee, which most people are reluctant to do.

That Haz-Mat fee also applies to any of the fake powders. So now, lets compare apples to apples.

A case of 25 cans of GOEX from Grafs would cost me $15.97 per pound to my door. I don't know why, but Grafs website automatically charges a double haz-mat fee ($45) for an order over 20 lbs. of black powder. As far as I know, the haz-mat fee is supposed to be $22.50 for any package up to 70 lbs. gross weight (which would cover up to 2 25-lb. cases of GOEX) Assuming that the haz-mat fee calculation on Grafs website is incorrect and the normal $22.50 fee would apply for a case of 25 lbs., it would only be $15.07 per pound to my door.

Before I order my next case of GOEX I will call Grafs and ask about the Haz-Mat fee, as it doesn't increase beyond $22.50 per case of 25 lbs. for any of the fake powders I checked. But for 2 cases (50 lbs.) of GOEX, it jumps to a triple fee of $67.50. If this is correct, I may have to take my powder business elsewhere, as it seems Grafs is over-charging on the Haz-Mat fee.

A case of 25 pounds of Pyrodex from Grafs would cost me $15.67 per pound to my door. Cabelas sells Pyrodex RS for $19 per pound.

A case of 25 lbs. of Triple Se7en from Grafs is $22.07 to my door. Again, Cabelas sells Triple Se7en for $27 per pound.

While Grafs is pretty cheap for the fake powders, they are one of the more expensive vendors for GOEX. I could certainly do better by shopping around, but I wanted to compare apples to apples. For example, according to their website, I can get a case of GOEX from Jack's Powder Keg for $12.60 per pound shipped.

By the way, Dixon's charges $20 per lb. for GOEX. I don't know about any of the fake powders that Dixon's might sell, as I have no use for any of them. A little steep, but sometimes you have to pay a little bit more for convenience. I just bought a pound of FFFg from Dixon's las week as I have been out of work on disability for more than 4 months and can't afford to order a case until I start getting a paycheck again.

So when you compare apples to apples, black powder is no more expensive than any of the fakes, and is in fact cheaper than many of the fake powders.

As far as splitting a case among a couple of shooters - why bother? I shoot a MINIMUM of 10 lbs. of GOEX per year. So a case lasts me about 2 years. And as long as I plan ahead a little bit, I never run out of powder.

[madcratebuilder]

Real black powder is still routinely available from mail order outfitters.

For the time being it is. I have read that dept of homeland security wants to add a licensing requirement to posses black powder.

Right now mail order seems the best and cheapest way, especially if you can get a few folks together to share the haz-mat fee.

[sundance44s]

Try Deer Creek for Goex orders ...they are cheaper than Grafs and Powder Inc.

[fyrfyter43]

777 can be used in a flintlock in a duplex load.

And like I've said before, that's alot of added aggravation and expense for a very questionable "benefit". Why would I want to spend more money for a fake powder, carry 2 horns and measures, take at least twice as long to load, and run the risk of a hangfire/misfire when traditional black powder has worked so well for hundreds of years and is readily available?

To me it sounds like a solution is search of a problem.

[Ratdog68]

I dunno (fyrfyter43)... I think what's to be learned here is... to help someone finding themselves in a "what if". Meaning? Ya get a chance to hunt in a new location... get to your destination and realize you're human... and forgot your favorite powder. How do you effectively adapt and overcome? Ya never know when a tidbit picked up along the way... could come in handy for someone.

On a day to day practical application? I tend to agree with you... more fuss than fun.

[mykeal]

And like I've said before, that's alot of added aggravation and expense for a very questionable "benefit". Why would I want to spend more money for a fake powder, carry 2 horns and measures, take at least twice as long to load, and run the risk of a hangfire/misfire when traditional black powder has worked so well for hundreds of years and is readily available?

We're just trying to help a fellow forum member who asked a legitimate question. Sorry we got your sensibilities all offended.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Ya'll need to buy yourselves a gun that will shoot 777. Who told ya'll that you could use just any ol' piece ya'll decided on?!!
Ya'll need to check with me and a couple more fellers on this here site. We'un's, and we'un's alone, will instruct you all's in what manner of firearms you all may choose!!!
Well, it's cold up here now. Been cold all day with that wind whipping about. Snow flurry here and there. Know it's gonna be down there tonight...Propane is a wonderful thing. Lot of people around here burn wood and it keep's their places warm but damn! You have to go to the mountain and haul it back and all sort's of different stuff. My people back before I was borned used to take a horse and wagon and make the trip to the mountains for their wood. Rough times back then. Grandmother and them used to tell me about how it was.
Guess I'm gonna shut it down for the night. It's not even dark yet but I'vd done added another cold weather double wide sleeping bag to my bed and all, so I think I'll just crawl in those bags and listen to the radio. To hell with it. I'vd done checked over every knife and gun I own and all my cleaning stuff and spare parts and all. I reckon I'm in good shape for the shape I'm in. Hope all of you have a good night with no problems. OK, holler at ya'll tomorrow....

[fyrfyter43]

I dunno (fyrfyter43)... I think what's to be learned here is... to help someone finding themselves in a "what if". Meaning? Ya get a chance to hunt in a new location... get to your destination and realize you're human... and forgot your favorite powder. How do you effectively adapt and overcome? Ya never know when a tidbit picked up along the way... could come in handy for someone.

The fact remains that for a flintlock, blackpowder is still needed. So if you forgot your powder and can't find any blackpowder readily available, you're still SOL.

[fyrfyter43]

We're just trying to help a fellow forum member who asked a legitimate question. Sorry we got your sensibilities all offended.
No sensibilities here to offend. :evil:

Like I said, "duplex" loads in a flintlock are a solution in search of a problem.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well FYRFYTER43, if you're still reading this, be it known I hate to see you leave. I know I shoot Triple Seven and I like my .45 inlines with the sabots, but I admire and respect your feeling's on the matter to. You're a purist. I'm somewhere half in between. I use what I use but I stand ready to go back further if the need should ever arise. I can skin an animal and make my own clothing. I can strike a fire using flint and steel. I have all the equipment and supplies I need for making my own powder. (not only the electric ball mill but also the mortar and pestle) Anyway, we're not all bad. I joke and bulls*** around sometimes but I don't mean any harm by it and neither does anyone else on here. We're just all on here passing a little time and talking about a way of life we love. Give us a little bit of credit, man. Well, anyway, I wish you the best....

[sundance44s]

You know the Tread question here was Why real BP ??
How about the right answer to the question ...Because it says Black Powder only on the Barrel .
If one choses to use Subs in a rifle or pistol that was designed to shoot Black Powder .........they can deal with the problems of it , just don`t blame the company that made the gun when it doesn`t shoot right with subs .

[Nate1778]

Why Black Powder, cause its easy to make.

[zimmerstutzen]

black is easy to make, it works in all black powder weapons. You don't have to carry three flasks to make a flinter go off.

I shoot all kinds of black powder guns, cannons, flinters, percussion, catridge, etc. It really isn't that big a deal to clean up, and to clean up is about the same work as some of the subs. If the gun is so valuable that you must be afraid of destroying it, then perhaps trip 7 is the way to go.

I understand that trip 7 should not be used in some bottleneck cartridgees.

[arcticap]

You know the Tread question here was Why real BP ??
How about the right answer to the question ...Because it says Black Powder only on the Barrel .

From the TC sidelock manual pages 2 and 3, [red emphasis added]:

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

....Thompson/Center muzzleloaders are designed and intended to be used only with a commercially manufactured Black Powder or an approved Black Powder substitute, such as Pyrodex propellant of the specific granulation or type called for in this book-By Black Powder we mean a powder which is manufactured specifically for use in muzzleloading firearms as opposed to smokeless powder which is manufactured for use in metallic cartridges or shotshells. NO smokeless powder, even those which appear black in color, should ever be used in a muzzleloadingfirearm. Be sure you know what type and granulation of powder you are loading. Never buy or use powder unless you have seen it poured from the original manufacturer’s container which is clearly identified on the label. Use Black Powder or an approved Black Powder substitute, such as Pyrodex, only of the type and granulation specified in this booklet and never load charges heavier than those listed.

I guess that by specifying "commercially manufactured" BP, TC doesn't want folks to shoot their TC guns with homemade black powder. And the same stipulation is usually made by gun manufacturers as it applies to reloaded cased ammunition too, no matter how safe it is or how carefully the rounds are assembled. :rolleyes:

[Das Jaeger]

If you have to ask , you wouldn't understand anyway .

Das Jaeger

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I hate black powder. Hate it, hate it, HATE it! If Mr Remington or Mr Colt had 777 back then you can bet they would have recommended it. I don't have to blame anyone for any problems because I don't have any problems. Lot's of ya'll are the ones who seem to have all the problems. "Oh, my nipples don't fit right!" "Damn I had to drop the hammer twice before the cap would fire!" On and on and on. All I have to do is just cock mine and pull the trigger and WHAMM!!! All that 777 explodes with a power and force that black powder couldn't even begin to imagine. Nope, no problems at all that I know of. If I have any I promise ya'll that ya'll will be the first ones I let know. There, does that make ya'll feel better? Good, good. Yes sir, always glad to do my little part for the good and well being of the whole. My my, I'll sleep good tonight for sure just knowing I have contributed so much....MR. GOTC....

[Das Jaeger]

Gentleman , Mr. , Sir , ha ha ha :D
I aint so sure anymore about you GOTC :neener:
Put the Jugg Down ! :D You'll make more sence to yourself if ya do . :D
ANYONE that would rather shoot 777 or Pyrodreck is plumb looney .
You pass the test , your the man now . :D
The whole I idea of shooting BP guns at all is to shoot real BP if possible .
Why not just buy yourself a nice little Roooger BlackBird in .357 and be done with it ?
BP shooting is for real BP , not for fake crap . If that's all you can get then fine, but purposely not shoot real BP ? You totally missed the whole entire point of this sport GOTC .
Wow, I went from respecting your wisdome to thinking you may have more than just the one screw loose now ? :eek:
I would switch MASH , yours has got some Mold on her . :D
Now I have heard it all :banghead: ..............Sleep tight , gloat away in your dreamz , that be silly talk you be speakin now . :neener::D

Jaeger , whom used to admire you ? Now I am confuzed and shocked ?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Herr Jigger, I'm not in it for the sport suh. Never was. I'm in it because I alway's knew that when I needed to shoot, the gun would shoot with no hangfires, mis-fires. jams, or what have you. When I drop the hammer on one of my pieces I KNOW it's going to shoot and I know EXACTLY where the round is going because I know the condition of my guns, I know the condition of my powder, ball and cap, and I built that charge in each chamber all by my little self. I don't give a damn about the noise and smoke. Dosen't mean anything to me. I'll leave all that stuff to the kind folks who like to go to some range and watch everybody stare at them just because they shot a damned ol' Walker....I'm not in the jug sir. Don't care for it myself. Now if it was a coffeepot full of good dark roast, well now, that's a different story. What, I'm supposed to live my life according to the standards you set for me? Ha ha, I don't think so. Probably not tomorrow and certainly not today. I'll tell you something else to. I'vd made black powder before. Poured it on the ground and burned it up. (PPOOFF!!) Tell you something else to. The black powder I made was a hell of a lot cleaner and much stronger than that maggot poop ya'll call Goex. I'd sure have to be a desperate little feller to load that junk into a gun of mine much less depend on it to protect me or feed me....

[Das Jaeger]

Not sure , but BP refers to Black Powder right . At least to anyone that can spell that tis . I don;t think it stadn for Pyrodreck Revolvers ? Hmmm , BP revolvers , Black Powder Revolvers, yup, surely does . Tripple 7 Revolvers ? Nope , not that either .
What , your not going to live by the standards I set for you ? Oh bummer, I may just cry myself to sleep tonight . :D

Jaeger

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Herr Jigger.. Suh, ya'll are demonstrating you all's ungodly ignorance in a most un Southern manner ah must point out heah suh..This heah so called 'blackpowder' deal which appear's to have ya'll all comfobulated heah is depressing to me suh. Ah find it extremely depressing suh. When ah first spoke to you all on this heah site ah was so sure. Ohhh!!!! Ah am so disappointed suh! God know's ah had hoped for so much betta....

[sundance44s]

Heck I thought I had been reading from 777 users be careful not to compress it too tight ..don`t store it too long ..don`t ever let dampness fall on it ..be sure and use real hot caps ..always put a little of the real stuff behind it so you can use it in a flinter ....
be sure and reduce your charge ....
This stuff sounds like a bigger pain in the azz than my ex .
and I think someone has been smokeing the stuff ....
On the other hand ..REAL BLACK yes even Goex ....
Compress the heck out of it if you like ....won`t hurt a thing .
you can store it over 150 years ...no problem
let it sit out in the rain .,.and dry it on a rock on a sunny day ......good as new
and in a flinter ...use one horn if you like ....it will work in the prime pan as well as under the ball ...all from the same horn .

[Ratdog68]

You just keep believing that and leave the 777 on the shelf for me to buy. You can have the Pyrodrips. :evil:

[Das Jaeger]

Sundance , your spot on with your evaluation of the Holy Black . Once you turn black you'll never turn back , WORD ! :D

Jaeger

[Ratdog68]

I have an opinion of the 777 since I've used it. I likes it. I don't have an opinion of regular BP... haven't gotten/used any yet. Stay tuned though... same Ratdog time, same Ratdog channel. :D

[BCRider]

Ratdog, if you are able to see the target though the smoke from 777 then it's not the real thing and you're missing out on the confusion brought on by the "fog of war".... :D

And having seen the BROWN smoke from Pyrodex I'm loathe to let it into my guns.



WOW! Here I sit having shot about a 1/2 lb of Holy Black in total and already I'm as elitist as you can get.... :D

[Sagetown]

Why real Black Powder?
Lots of good posts here, and I've pondered whethter to add to it, but here goes.

For me, Real Black Powder is the choice for the guns that came from another era. Along with man's desire to possess the beautiful craftsmanship of yesteryears black powder weapons follows that yearning to use the same powders that our forefathers used.

Nostalgia hits most of us sometime or another. To me an intriguing representation of times past is the enjoyment of burning real black powder in a well balanced shootin iron from the pages of history. I already said that didn't I. Maybe its worth repeating. :D

Sage

[higene]

Ratdog,

Careful, you're hittin' the Starbucks too hard. Your position borders on contempt prior to investigation.

We may have to get out the dart gun.

Hugs,

Higene

;)

PS: No baiting the purists.

[BCRider]

Sagetown, I have to agree. Part of the fun is actually being able to experience historically accurate results. Granted the new reproduction guns may (or may not :D) be made to slightly nicer finish specs on the whole but the feeling and results when you shoot are exactly the same as the folks got back in the 1800's. That's got to count for something.

[Ratdog68]

LOL I'm doin' good to see the target (now that I'm pushin' 50)... and BOTH sights (danged bifocals) ! :D I know my 777 doesn't smell like rotten eggs during clean-up... there's a plus. ;)

[BCRider]

I don't mind the smell. At first I gagged but now it makes me crave deviled egg sandwiches.... :D

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog,

Careful, you're hittin' the Starbucks too hard. Your position borders on contempt prior to investigation.

We may have to get out the dart gun.

I avoid Starbucks. Their refusal to support our troops with "product" (because of their political views of our being in Iraq), that didn't set too well with me. Then... seeing a website in which they were opening (financially) supporting the furthering of "alternate lifestyles" :banghead: (was that P.C. enough? :barf:)... the two added up to more than I'm willing to financially back. :cuss: There's LOTS of mom/pop joints that I can buy my coffee treats from. :cool:

"Contempt"? :confused: Hardly. I simply say that I like 777 (after having used it). :cool: When I can get my hands on some BP... I will... and I'll formulate my own opinions of it with first hand experience. :p Until then... I'm not going to praise it without proving it for myself. :neener:

[Ratdog68]

I don't mind the smell. At first I gagged but now it makes me crave deviled egg sandwiches.... :D
I do (however), clearly recall a lamenting post of the smell the first time you used your '58's... :neener: I see you quickly graduated from elitist finishing school. :D

[Jefferson Herb]

I'd like to comment,after all I've read over 4 pages.I used pyro when it first came out,and bp was'nt available;I prefer black.
Shooting muzzleloaders and Relics is supposed to be cheap [ or it was except for brass ] and the inline craze has ruined it for the throwbacks.
I do use a slug barrel [shallow groove ] with bp and have fine accuracy,if I keep a good soft lube [1000+] and a 370 maxi w 100gr ffg is 1250 fps in my gm 1 in 28 twist.
I cringe every time I look at the cost of percussion caps,[also martini brass]but I'll still use them and clean instead of fireing several caps.
BHP! unless I have to cook at the Grange,I'll be on the hill,You going to be there?

[BCRider]

I see you quickly graduated from elitist finishing school. :D

There's even a secret handshake!

[Das Jaeger]

I really miss Mason :neener: NOT ....:D...Although I do miss teazing him :mad:

Useually the people who bandmouth real BP have never shot real PB :)
The ones that have shot real BP , then badmouth it are just wrong in the head .
Personally , I am just wrong in the head for other reasons :D .......But if you dont enjoy the fire and smoke of real BP , you are just wrong period , and have missed the entire point of this sport altogther .

Das Jaeger

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I'vd got a book here somewhere about blackpowder and the products needed. One part I like is about how to make percussion caps. I'm not talking about the little 'cap-o-punch' or whatever they call it. On this one you just punch and there's a perfect cap. Then you add a drop of mercury fulminate or whatever you call it and maybe a drop of candle wax if you like and you're ready to go. (mercury fulminate is what the book said and that's what I'vd got put away to use if I ever need to, but I understand they have cleaner and better stuff out there now to load the caps with) I have the machine to make the caps to. I keep it sitting right next to a quart of 30 weight oil that was made in 1944. Anyway it's a good book. Damn thing must be a good 3 inches thick at the least. Got all kinds of pictures in there to help you. There ain't no big history lessons on blackpowder firearms and pictures of muskets or whatever that was used in such and such a war and whatnot. Just has some real good recipes on making blackpowder, casting balls, making caps, slow matches, and stuff like that. I need to hunt it up. I'vd got it here somewhere. I don't need to read it but just have it close by for reference. That book belonged to my daddy and maybe to my granddaddy before him.
Guess I'm wrong in the head then. Dosen't bother me any. Ya'll can play with that junk all you please. The particular blackpowder firearms I picked out are the only ones I care anything about. I like the way they're built and the way they load and shoot. If they would handle smokeless powder I'd be putting that in there I guess. I list::Remington (Pietta) 1858 New Model Army .44--ColtWalker (Uberti) 1847 .44 (.45)--Colt (Uberti) 1849 Pocket .31--Remington (Uberti) Cattleman's Carbine .44--North American Arms .22 Magnum Mini Revolver, plus CVA .45 inlines and Traditions .45 inlines.....I chose these pieces (every single one of them) very carefully, and I own more than one of each one of these weapons. They suit me fine. Not the least bit interested in anything else or any other type or caliber or model they have on the market. Not interested in the difference between Goex and Elephant powder. They're both woefully weak in the stopping and knockdown department, and a real b**** to try and clean up from all I'vd ever read and heard. Believe me, if I could open up a few .338 Winchester Magnum rounds and use that powder in my pieces I'd be doing it. I do own one 1st Model Dragoon. I keep forgetting about it because I don't ever shoot it. But then again I don't ever shoot much any more anyway. Just when I need to....PS. Was going to buy myself a LeMat but after a lot of reading and researching I figure a LeMat is just a problem waiting to happen....

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Jefferson Herb..Sir, out of curiousity here, may I ask you what 'Martini Brass' is?....

[sundance44s]

Quote ..Not interested in the difference between Goex and Elephant powder. They're both woefully weak in the stopping and knockdown department, and a real b**** to try and clean up from all I'vd ever read and heard

GOTC ..I know you didn`t hear or read on this forum that Goex and Elephant are woefully weak in stopping and knock down power .
And real black powder is hard to clean up after ...
Good greif man ...try it you may find out different from what you are thinking / reading /and wanting to beleive ..
I would try and explain how easy real black powder is to clean up after or show you the Buffalo I killed with one shot of 68grs of Goex and a .535 gr slug ( soft lead bullet ) .....good greif man the beast dropped like a rock ...and that slug passed through both shoulders and kept going . Weak ..this beast weighed over 1,400 lbs .
Ok I get it ......you really shoot real black powder and are just pulling our chains RIGHT ?
No one would argue about something they have never even tried ...:what:

[alistaire]

It's the wonderful smell.

The smell of black powder in the morning is like the smell of liberty in the air.

[higene]

You don't mention the name of the book? Is an ancient secret MC training manual or can any of us get it?

Hi Gene

[SHIPCHIEF]

Once upon a 4th of July, My wife and I flew home in the evening after dusk.
We were in our 1958 Cessna 172, flying about 3000 feet altitude.
The Fireworks look pretty weenie, down below, but the Black powder smoke covered the land, and the smell was glorious even above the fray. About as close as you could imagine the Civil War.
The kids and dads at the small airport had been using the runway to light off their fire works. They scattered so we could land, which we did amongst the smoke and smell.
My non shooting sister in law was duly impressed, when I mentioned the Civil War angle.
I have Pyrostuff and 777, but the real thing is still THE REAL THING. :neener:

[BHP FAN]

GOTC,Martini brass is what Jefferson uses to shoot his Martini Henry.I've seen him do it!or was that his Trapdoor?The man has some really cool guns...

[unspellable]

The primary difference between brands of BP is the wood used for the charcoal. It's not well understood but apparently some part of the non-carbon components of the charcoal act as a catalyst.

The boys who shoot breech loading BP double rifles will tell you that Swiss is the only brand they can get to regulate. Otherwise it's nitro for BP loads.

I use both BP and Pyrodex depending on this or that. I've never seen Swiss in the flesh, all I find on the shelves is Goex or one time a German brand. If the store has real BP at all.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundance.44's....Hell, I didn't say blackpowder wouldn't kill a buffalo, or a man or a rabbit or hell maybe a full grown roaring ass lion. In the most basic form all I said was that 777 is stronger than blackpowder (which is true) and easier to clean up after than blackpowder (which is true). I also said I like Triple Seven 3fff (which is true)....
PS Hygeine..Man that book has probably been out of print for damn near a hundred years or better. I'll look for it tomorrow. I think I know about where I put it.
BHP, thank you sir. Knew damn well I couldn't ever remember hearing of such a critter....

[BHP FAN]

I've used Swiss,and except for being a bit cleaner,and having a little less ''Pooh'', it's not all that different from Goex.Elephant is a little dirtier,and has a little more ''kick'',assuming the same granulation,of course.

[Sagetown]

unspellable: I've never seen Swiss in the flesh,

Shooting 25gr. w/.454"ball and SWISS in this .44 Army and 25gr. of GOEX in the holstered Brass .44 Army to compare powders. The SWISS recoil was very notable here.
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/FourBee/swissbrandrecoil1.jpg

[BHP FAN]

''BHP, thank you sir. Knew damn well I couldn't ever remember hearing of such a critter....''
No problem. I've played around a bit with the subs over the years,and of all of them the only one I'll let anywhere near my guns is 777.You mentioned the power and the clean up,but what impressed me was the almost flat trajectory.

[BHP FAN]

Do you twist draw those '60's Sagetown?

[Sagetown]

Do you twist draw those '60's Sagetown?
Hey BHP FAN: Naw; I think what you see here is a modern day non-agressive rig presentation.

Had trouble getting this pic to upload, but here is the Brass .44 Army I'm shooting with GOEX.
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/FourBee/goexnswiss0021.jpg

[SHIPCHIEF]

Truth be told, I used 777 during whitetail hunting last week in my T/C Renegade 54. Shot it in the evening and cleaned it. Snapped caps and loaded in the morning.
It worked well enough, and cleaned up quick too. Just didn't smell right.
I still use FFFg in the revolvers. Before I read this forum, I was worried about the warning against compressing the powder charge.
In a short barreled colt, the loading lever is so short you don't have much control. Once the ball is swaged into the cylinder chamber, it moves pretty fast and compresses the charge pretty hard.
I Promise I'll give it a try next time, OK? Just tell me you won't beat me anymore!

[AbitNutz]

I shoot a fake a black powder revolver (Stainless ROA). Which may be the reason I shoot fake black powder (777). They're made for each other...they sure seem to work well together.

If I could get hold of one of those cylinders that use 209 shotgun primers...I'd likely use that as well. Then I could have fake primers...

[Ratdog68]

I shoot a fake a black powder revolver (Stainless ROA). Which may be the reason I shoot fake black powder (777). They're made for each other...they sure seem to work well together.

If I could get hold of one of those cylinders that use 209 shotgun primers...I'd likely use that as well. Then I could have fake primers...
OMG... next.... he'll be wanting to get himself some implants... so he can be fake there too. :evil:

[BHP FAN]

I did NOT need that mental image...

seriously though,I would forgo the whole 209 adapted cylinder and get an R&D conversion cylinder.Or, maybe get both.It'd be sweet to be able to use black powder or cartridge in the same gun,at will.I had one in a Pietta Remmie,and have always regretted letting that combo go....

[sundance44s]

I was thinkin ..maybe if you have never used real black , you should just stick with the subs .
Real black lights off so much quicker than any sub ..it will scare you ...might cause a bad flinch .

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundance44's!!!...You ought to be ashamed of yourself man!!.. The rather high level of sarcasm was duly noted and appreciated sir! Think it might make us flinch a little huh? Well, we certainly don't need any flinches around here!..Hell, the clean up probably wouldn't be a problem with me anyway. As good as I scrub and check and double check and then check again back and forth, whether it was Triple Seven 3fff or real homemade blackpowder or a mixture of epoxy and quick set concrete, that piece would be clean when I got through. I don't use 777 just because it's easier to clean up or because I'm too lazy to clean. I like the power. That Triple Seven 3fff will hum a ball on down the line believe me. Best damn thing since sliced bread. It's alway's done me good. Be hard for me to turn my back on it....Why, there's no doubt in my military mind that if Ol' Davy Crockett had 777 back then for 'Ol Betsy", why, he could have stood right there at the Alamo and killed Mexicans all the way down there by the Panama Canal Zone somewhere....

[sundance44s]

Ok Ok I`m ashamed of myself that was indeed sarcasm , forgive me I have sinned ... But if I had an old powder horn I would fill it up with some 777 and leave it hang in my shop for the winter ,( Just to prove a point )..that old Davy would never put a powder in his horn that turns into a brick in a few month.
GOTC I think you are really defending this 777 just to keep the howlerin up ....
If you really beleive that 777 is a powder that could see you through hard times in the woods alone with a need to hunt to eat ....
Do some testing with it ...........get some wet ...at the same time get some Goex wet ...then dry out both powders and see which one will still killl game for you .
I like to test every thing I shoot , one of my test is with black powder cartridges ...
I tried loading 777 ..pyrodex ..and APP in the brass cartridges ...let them sit a year and shot them through my crono ..........the subs are all over the chart after long storage ...the Goex is more consistant shot after shot ....since that day , I have been looking for a place to dispose of the 777 and pyrodex I own ..
a friend of mine just bought a mortar with a coke can size bore .....so I have now found a place to dispose of the jars of sub powders I have ...they should all work well enough to chunk coke cans and such .and I was about to use my subs to pour on these dang fireant hills and light them up ..may do that too though .
One thing that though .....GOTC ..with those words you imply you are a follower of the Holy Black Powder by the C meaning Charcoal ......................since when do they use Charcoal to make 777 ...

[Das Jaeger]

on the brain maybe :neener:

Jaeger , good grief, that was sometin else GOTC , wow . Im'e so bummed tonight , you were my IDOL , now your my Doorknob ? :D

Jaeger

[AbitNutz]

Implants? You have to have BP implanted? In the Immortal words of some damn body when talking about fake boobs...GUYS DON'T CARE.

I never said I wouldn't get a Kirst conversion but I would like to try a 209 primer cylinder.

Anyone who believes that they're holding true to some mythical code of BP is deluding themselves. It's a pistol. It shoots a lead projectile...period. The different ways of doing that just add to my amusement.

[mykeal]

Anyone who believes that they're holding true to some mythical code of BP is deluding themselves.
I don't mind you stating your view of black powder and the black powder sports. Your opinion of what I believe and practice is better kept to yourself, please

[zimmerstutzen]

here in PA, we have a two week deer season just for flintlocks. Further, percussion cap and ball revolvers are not legal for anything but Coyotes and grround hogs. Since so many folks here use flint locks to take advantage of the Flint season for deer, most folks here stick to black and it is probably more available here, because of higher demand.

I have a pound of trip 7 and honestly haven't tried it in my percussion guns yet. I also have about 3/4 pound of Pyrodex that is 25 or 30 yrs old. Used it once, never ever again. Too corrosive.

[sundance44s]

GOTC ..don`t look ..I just poured 1/2 lb of 777 in this FireAnt Hill !
Fire Ants don`t like it eaither .
http://i36.tinypic.com/34ipwyr.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/htuqu0.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/1f19k.jpg

[Smokin_Gun]

Sundance I need that Patch for a Flight Jacket ...

[sundance44s]

Flight Jacket ..I was thinking of a Tattoo...I like it also ..got it off of Pvt. Hemvills site.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundamce.44s. That's my flag right there. I may reside in Wyoming but I was borned and reared in the Great State of Alabama. I still hold true to my principles..
Sundance, I have spent a great deal of my life prowling through Wyoming, Montana, on up through the Yukon and up through vast portions of Alaska in any kind of weather you want to name. No one to depend on but myself. Back in some of those holes I'vd been in if I shot it was to protect my life and well being, to start a fire, or to get something to eat. If something about the gun didn't do right it would have meant there was a great possibility that I was going to die in the next couple of minutes, or that I would slowly go to sleep and freeze to death, or that I'd spend a hungry night.
Sir, you shouldn't have poured that powder down the ant hill. Dosen't matter what type of make or brand it was. There's lot's of people way back in those hills and mountains right now who desperately need that powder you just wasted. I know it's yours, sir. You can do as you like with it. But please remember this. Somewhere in Wyoming, Montana, Canada, Alaska, and on over into Siberia there is a man and his wife (squaw or whatever you want to say) and their children and they'll go to bed hungry tonight because he didn't have any powder to make the shot..Respectfully, Stan..

[sundance44s]

I `ve been hanging onto that 1/2 a jug of 777 for a long time looking for some poor soul who wanted it , or thought he needed it , or maybe wanted to just try it like I did .
I bought it ..I tried it ..and I didn`t like it ..my black powder guns didn`t like it .
I don`t know anyone that shoots an Inline rifle ....You can`t give away an inline rifle in my home state ...we are allowed to use single shot black powder cartridge rifles during the primitive season . any model Pre 1900`s of single shot make.
The Fire Ants attacked me ..them things are dangerous around here ...thats a small hill ...I have larger ones in my pasture , 10 times that size ...I have 3/4 of a jug of pyrocrap I plan on stuffing in the larger hill ..
I would NOT give the Pyrodex to anyone that likes their guns ...it caused flash rusting in mine ....I value my guns too much to see the bores ruined .

I guess when I run out of junk powder , it`s back to poisions ...or buy a ant eater .

[BHP FAN]

I gave my [inherited] Pyrodex to the cannon shooters at my club,after it flat out ruined a favorite pistol flask of mine.I HATE that crud.Triple Seven is a whole different critter.Shoots good,clean up is eazy,my only gripe against it so far,is that it costs twice what Goex does.I get real honest BP through the club at $12.00 bucks on a group buy,and the last bottle of 777 I bought set me back almost $24.00.

[AbitNutz]

Wow...I care.

[Smokin_Gun]

Impressive someone who cares :evil:

[BHP FAN]

well,I only am only trying to save you some money,here.If you don't care,send me your excess!

[Carl N. Brown]

I have a couple of elderly brass frame cap'n'ball revolvers from the 1970s which were cheap and loose to start with (please no replies about my old girlfriends) and quite frankly have decided to shoot only real FFFg black powder in them. I use PyrodexRS in muzzleloading rifles, triple seven in BP cartridge, but real BP for the revolvers. The substitutes really require a long barrel and no cylinder gap leakage for consistent results. Triple Seven seems to be sensitive to compression, and the only way I can be consistent with that is using it in cartridges only.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundance, I'll ask you sir because you are the one who stated it...Pyrodex will cause flash rusting? Never heard of that before. I'vd never used it and don't think I know anybody who has except for reading on here. I'vd only been messing with a computer for like maybe 4 years. I know about 6 people who shoot strictly black powder but they make their own. They don't mention Elephant powder hardly ever but I have heard them talk pretty bad about Goex. They'vd made it and shot it all their life and ain't none of them under 60 years old. (I don't believe they are anyway) Damn! That just reminded me. I need to find that book. I promised Higene....Sir, your sins are forgiven thee. Go in peace and sin no more....PS. I have left guns (except the inlines) loaded for extended periods of time and never had any trouble with the Triple Seven 3fff firing, and I mean just as good as ever. I had some BlackMag 3 turn as hard as a rock on me and it had never been opened (still ended up shooting as good as ever) but I have never had 777 turn hard on me even if it was out of the original container and in the flask for a long long time. Of course I'm alway's extremely careful about how I take care of my powder and caps....

[Sagetown]

GOTC:
What a lot of ole timers had to say about GOEX was not that it was bad in their long guns, but that Elephant was more consistent. Here is an excerpt on the subject of the two.
By the way GOEX was made by Dupont, and Elephant a Brazilian powder (still sold as Elephant by Petro-Explo out of Arlington, Texas.) was, if I'm not mistaken, purchased by (Schuetzen Powder, LLC).

Elephant is different in one regard. It has an extremely low sulfate content in the potassium nitrate brought on by a longer milling process. this brings about low acidity in the powder. Elephant Blackpowder also has a more glazed appearance. the end result is reduced bore pressure and slightly slower velocities. Does this make Elephant inferior? Not necessarily. In fact, velocities are quite consistent with little standard deviation, which translates to excellent accuracy and more than enough pressure for dispatching big game.

p.s. GOEX began selling their blackpowder brand in 1912, it was produced by E.I. Dupont de Nemours Company at its Berlin, Pennsylvania plant. In 1970 Dupont ceased production, and eventually sold their plant to GOEX.

[Wolfebyte]

That just reminded me. I need to find that book.

I too would like to know the name of it.. see if it's still available in print somewhere...


thank you sir..

[sundance44s]

Ok I`ll explain the flash rusting I spoke of ....here`s the deal what happened to me with Pyrodex ..
I was useing Pyrodex P in my Remington revolver
I normaly clean when I get home from the range with hot soapy water and dry with a hair dryer , then oil and store the piece .
This day ..I washed the revolver parts and just layed them on a towel to air dry ..in an hour I came back to find my chambers and bore flash rusted from the pyrodex .
I tryed this same thing with a revolver I only shot Goex with and , after washing I can leave it to air dry and never ever have I found any rusting at all ...
There must be some chemicals in Pyrodex that keep a bore from getting a proper seasoning ......
This is the reason you have seen others on this forum say that Pyrodex ruined their bores and chambers .........and call it Pyrowrecks .and such ...it is just that .
The 777 and APP powders I tried didn`t do the flash rusting in my guns ....But it is harder to light off ..and no where as consistant as real black powder .
I test my powders with a crono and keep the data ...not one of the subs I have tested will meet my standards I set with Goex .
Something for thought ....in the 1800`s no one tried to improve black powder ...powder went from real black powder to smokeless ...................................You just can`t improve the real thang !

[Das Jaeger]

WORD !
That says it all about BP . You can't re-invent the perfect mouse trap .

Jaeger

[AbitNutz]

http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?tabs=general&proId=prod10230002&itemId=cat10070002&id=

Couldn't help it...

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

" Blackpowder"....
Sub title--"The Complete Encyclopedia For Blackpowder, Percussion Caps, Balls, and Much More.".... Author--Addolyn Sawyer....My particular book was printed August 1907 in New York, NY....PS..Sycamore and Sweet Gum make excellent charcoal....

[billnpatti]

There are several chemical differences. The substitutes are essentially modern powders made to mimic the properties of black powder. Actually, they are a bit hotter than black powder. An equivalent load for substitutes such as Pyrodex is about 10% less than for black powder.

Because it is a modern propellent with the burning properties of modern smokeless powder, it can be shipped, stored and handled in the same manner as smokeless powder. Black powder, on the other hand, is classified as an explosive and requires special shipping, handling and storage requirements. That is why the substitutes are more readily available on the dealers shelves.

As for how it works in a muzzleloader, it is fine for in-line guns. They have a direct ignition path and use the hotter shotgun primers. Caplock rifles will work pretty reliably with the substitutes as well as with black powder. But as I said previously, you need to reduce the volume equivalent load by about 10% when shooting any of the substitutes. So, if you are shooting 100 grains of black powder, you will need to reset your powder measure for 90 grains for the substitute powder.

When you take up shooting a flintlock, you immediately leave behind your substitute powder and must use only real black powder. Substitute powders have a much higher ignition temperature than real black powder and will simply not ignite reliably in a flintlock. If you try to use a substitute powder in a flintlock, you will become very frustrated very quickly trying it to get it to go off. I have no problem with what anyone else chooses to pour down the barrel of their smoke pole but as for me, I use only the Holy Black. Just my opinion. It's free and worth every damn penny of it.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Weather report tell's me it feel's like -2 degrees out there right now and it's still early in the evening. The snow and ice has been whipping around out there for sure ever since 0400hrs this morning, and I mean bad. Can't see 20 feet out there and I am really snowed and drifted in. BUT they say it should get up to around 45 degrees tomorrow. I guess this is the storm blowing on through that has been niggling around here for the last three days or so. Sometimes I think I must be a little crazy. I don't know why the hell I'm up here when I could have this thing parked in my sister's yard down in Alabama or in my friends yard in south Louisiana. Probably 85 degrees down there right now. I don't want to check. I might start crying!!....

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Billinpatti, enjoyed your post very much. I already knew and understood what you said but I still enjoyed your post....PS ..They say reduce Triple Seven loads by 15% but hell, I had my loads worked out years ago....

[Ratdog68]

LOL I don't envy your current weather conditions... but, I sure do like the sound of having elbow room and game nearby !! Keep the nose of that truck into the wind now. :D Lots of fresh coffee beans is a GOOD thing in that weather !

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Afternoon Mr. RatDog. Yeah, I wouldn't really leave here unless I was heading for even more open spaces. I'm nice and warm. Propane is a wonderful thing and I'vd got a fresh cup of coffee setting right here with me! Hope you're having a good day man. I'm doing alright except that I'm going to shut down the generator I have running after awhile here and give it a rest. I'm going to unplug the trailer's power supply cord from it and just set it just inside the door here to keep it sort of warm. I don't use or need much 120 volt electrical power anyway. I have these deep cycle batteries to and they run my XM radio and the 12 volt lights and all. I have a power invertor hooked up to them and in an emergency I can run my computer and tv (which I don't hardly ever turn on anyway. I'm not a tv nut) and stuff off of them but probably not for very long. My heat and cooking and some of my lights can come right off the propane. Well anyway I'm set up pretty good I reckon. I have good back-ups and all....

[Gaucho Gringo]

GOTC I would much rather be in your cool temperatures than 85. I cannot stand the heat. At 70 I can soak a tee shirt in 10 min. At 60 I am still sweating and warm. I am very comfortable around 50-55 in a tee shirt. I have not heated my bedroom in 10 years and leave the window open most of the winter except when it is blowing snow. My wife however is bundles up in 6 or 7 layers. She is very understanding and i am lucky to have her as she also doesn't object to my guns.

[Jefferson Herb]

BHP I just found a 32 page article on making 577-450 brass out of 24 ga brass.I had tried it before but it takes 30-60 mini-strokes to make the casings so they don't buckle or deform badly.This would be cheaper than buffalo arms at over 3.00 almost 4.00 for small orders. This would have my 1882 short lever in heaven.
Don't sell yourself short,I want to check out that Sharps perc you just aquired!! Going to take some big zig-zags to make nitrated cartriges ha-ha

[BHP FAN]

I made 19 paper cartridges last night to bring up Sunday,'Herb!Top or Bugeler are better papers for cartridges,BTW...

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Ya'll would really waste a good cigarette paper on something like a cartridge?!!!!

[sundance44s]

There are Pygmies in New Guinea dieing for a smoke ...shame on you wasteing those papers ...

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Can't believe this..Cartridge?! CARTRIDGE??!!!
Co'mon here man! Just pour a good dose of powder down the barrel or chamber, gently stoke in the appropiate ball or sabot, put a cap on it and go for it. (a little Crisco over the balls if it's a revolver. guess there aint any law against an over the powder wad if that's your thing. been known to use one a time or two myself) Cartridge, huh..Ya'll must have been watching ol' what's his name Eastwood or Hop Along Cassidy or somebody. Send all those cigarette papers to me. I like to roll up good pipe tobacco in them. I don't like the pipe part but I love the tobacco....SO Sundance! You're a smoker huh? I just KNEW there was something about you I respected. Just couldn't quite put my finger on it!!....

[Smokin_Gun]

Them dang new fangled katridgees ain't gonna catch on ...ya gotta load um up then tote um around xtra weight and all... ya KNOW?

GOTC, I'm gonna send ya a Hooka for yer pipe t'backy to use on them cold nites you'll be a havin' ...
Sittin' here in the Mojave it's hard put myself in your weather climate, but I surely remember what it used to be like in the way upper Northeast... :O)

[sundance44s]

GOTC ..guess I have been pullin yer chain so to speak ...you can shoot what ever powder makes you and your guns happy with my blessings .( if it does what you want thats all that matters )
The only thing I hate to read on these forums is some one useing my beloved Grits or cornmeal as a filler now that makes a man tear run down my cheek .....that is a sin in the South ....Thats staple food here .

[Ratdog68]

I kin unnerstan' the use of Cream of Wheat as a filler... but grits and/or corn meal? Even this half-breed knows about good corn bread and grits with butter and a little pepper. :D

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundance, got some news for you ol' hoss. Them is staple foods round this here place to!!

[BHP FAN]

GOTC,I'm guessing you know a better way to shoot my .54 Sharps? this one's meant for paper cartridges...got a paper cutter built in! I don't use cream o' wheat either,just good ol' Goex...

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Smoking Gun, hell yes, it's cold up here right now. (not deep winter cold, not yet) It's 20 degrees but that's not counting the wind chill factor and it's blowing pretty hard. Laid down and the snow quit about 0100hrs this morning but the wind picked back up pretty good around 1600hrs. Not snowing again yet but the wind is whipping the laid down snow around pretty good. Supposed to be some more snow coming out of the Rockies maybe early in the morning or sometime tomorrow. They said 4 to 6 inches. Hell, winter wasn't supposed to start until the first day of December...I think I'vd got it figured out. The gov'mint is messing round with the weather. Trying to make all us high plainsmen and retired mountain men pack it in and head South so's they can get us situated in a more densely populated place. That way you see, they will have more control over what we shoot and how and when we shoot it and what we shoot with it. Well, why not? How come I can't say that? Ain't no bigger damn lie than the one's they tell us all the time.
I don't even know what a Hooka is but I reckon I don't want one, thanks anyway...Mojava, that's a pretty place....

[bigbadgun]

Damn G of the C Sounds like you are talking about a reservation.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

BHP fan,.Just picking at you in fun a little. You know I didn't mean any harm! I'vd got a Sioux friend that has one of them Sharps like that. It only has one redeeming factor that I'm aware of. It work's first time, every time. He's a damn good shot with it to. His wife and daughter (mostly his wife) make's his ammo. They use some kind of greasy feeling paper. Don't know what kind it is or where they get it....

[Ratdog68]

Damn G of the C Sounds like you are talking about a reservation.
Yup... that'd 'bout sum it up alright.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I notice several people have just signed in to the site. Some damn football game must have just finished up!!....

[Ratdog68]

Nope... just been busy with life 'round my place.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Hey, Bigbadgun..Damn! Haven't heard from you or read you on here for a long time. You and me have some unfinished business if you remember. I was looking for you a few months ago on here. Now it will have to wait until January or Febuary.
How you been doing? I was beginning to think one of them 'gators or Python's done got you.
Yep, reservation right outside of Great Falls.

[bigbadgun]

Hell G I sent you a few pms I figured I upset you and you put in the black hole known as Gof the C ignore list LOL

[bigbadgun]

By the way does anybody know where I can get a good stag horn patch knife?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

RatDog 68. Good evening sir. Yeah, I'vd been busy round here to. Trying to stop up all these peemonia holes! Sun still shining in Seattle? It shined here today for about 7 minutes.... Hope you're doing good buddy. I just noticed. Temp has dropped from 20 degrees to 16 degrees plus the wind chill. I'm too lazy to check the wind chill part of it....

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Bigbadgun I don't remember getting a pm from you. I would never consign you to that list..How some ever, now that the subject has arisen, how come you are shooting buckshot in your .31 when Mr. Colt plainly stated in his writings to use .323's? Could it be you're shooting the Remington .31 and have never read it or heard of such a thing?! Could it be that you just don't care?!! You thought I'd forgotten all about your post on shooting the buckshot didn't you?!!..No my friend you're not going on my ignore list ever....

[Ratdog68]

RatDog 68. Good evening sir. Yeah, I'vd been busy round here to. Trying to stop up all these peemonia holes! Sun still shining in Seattle? It shined here today for about 7 minutes.... Hope you're doing good buddy. I just noticed. Temp has dropped from 20 degrees to 16 degrees plus the wind chill. I'm too lazy to check the wind chill part of it....

Definatey want to get those drafts sealed up before it gets really cold ! Yessir... the sun's still shining here in Seattle... for another day or so is about all... then a front comes in and will dump on us for a spell.

Yes indeed... doin' just fine. Took my step-mother to breakfast to celebrate her birthday... did some grocery shopping and then some chores 'round the place. Plenty of excitement here. LOL :D

[bigbadgun]

Well after putting the calipers on my little remmy the cylinder is .323 and the 0 buck shot is .320 and 5 lbs about 900 rounds for I think it was $20 bucks from Cabelas
hey you just cant beat that count. Now my 62 Uberti colt I run .375. I have both them little suckers. LOL I am sending you a PM.

[bigbadgun]

G of the C Yeah my pms to you are not going thru check your List

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Bigbadgun, I got three notifications from you. Each one just say's "Quote, I hope this one goes through.Quote"
What list?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

RatDog, please tell your Step Mother I said Happy Birthday....

[Ratdog68]

Thanks... will do. I thought she'd turned 89... guess it was her 88th BD. She beamed and giggled at the table when I told the server we were celebrating her 29th BD. She's a good one.

[badpenny]

Just a heads up for ya'll I stopped at the Bass Pro Shop east of Knoxville,Tn. yesterday.Apparently Bass Pro stocks Goex.I don't know if it's just that location,but they do have it in stock.

[Hawkeye748]

Bass Pro Stocks REAL BP unless prohibited by local laws/zoning. It is not kept on the shelf but has to be brought from a vault in back of the counter, so you have to ask for it.

Only problem is they charge about 8 bucks a pound more than what I paid per pound last week. Since I buy in 25 lbs lots, from a dealer, I don't get the HAZMAT fee so I get a break. 25 lbs for $270. from Back Creek Gun Shop.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Hawkeye748. Just curious. If you don't mind me asking how long does 25 lbs last you approx.?....

[BHP FAN]

Well,i don't want to answer for anyone else,but for me that's pretty much a lifetime supply!

[Old Cannonballs]

I'vd got a book here somewhere about blackpowder and the products needed. One part I like is about how to make percussion caps. I'm not talking about the little 'cap-o-punch' or whatever they call it. On this one you just punch and there's a perfect cap. Then you add a drop of mercury fulminate or whatever you call it and maybe a drop of candle wax if you like and you're ready to go. (mercury fulminate is what the book said and that's what I'vd got put away to use if I ever need to, but I understand they have cleaner and better stuff out there now to load the caps with) I have the machine to make the caps to. I keep it sitting right next to a quart of 30 weight oil that was made in 1944. Anyway it's a good book. Damn thing must be a good 3 inches thick at the least. Got all kinds of pictures in there to help you. There ain't no big history lessons on blackpowder firearms and pictures of muskets or whatever that was used in such and such a war and whatnot. Just has some real good recipes on making blackpowder, casting balls, making caps, slow matches, and stuff like that. I need to hunt it up. I'vd got it here somewhere. I don't need to read it but just have it close by for reference. That book belonged to my daddy and maybe to my granddaddy before him.
Guess I'm wrong in the head then. Dosen't bother me any. Ya'll can play with that junk all you please. The particular blackpowder firearms I picked out are the only ones I care anything about. I like the way they're built and the way they load and shoot. If they would handle smokeless powder I'd be putting that in there I guess. I list::Remington (Pietta) 1858 New Model Army .44--ColtWalker (Uberti) 1847 .44 (.45)--Colt (Uberti) 1849 Pocket .31--Remington (Uberti) Cattleman's Carbine .44--North American Arms .22 Magnum Mini Revolver, plus CVA .45 inlines and Traditions .45 inlines.....I chose these pieces (every single one of them) very carefully, and I own more than one of each one of these weapons. They suit me fine. Not the least bit interested in anything else or any other type or caliber or model they have on the market. Not interested in the difference between Goex and Elephant powder. They're both woefully weak in the stopping and knockdown department, and a real b**** to try and clean up from all I'vd ever read and heard. Believe me, if I could open up a few .338 Winchester Magnum rounds and use that powder in my pieces I'd be doing it. I do own one 1st Model Dragoon. I keep forgetting about it because I don't ever shoot it. But then again I don't ever shoot much any more anyway. Just when I need to....PS. Was going to buy myself a LeMat but after a lot of reading and researching I figure a LeMat is just a problem waiting to happen....

You find that book yet, sir?

[Carl N. Brown]

I shoot BP substitute in muzzleloading rifles and cartridge handguns.

I shoot real BP in my semi-retired brass frame cap-n-ball revolvers simply because the BP substitutes really don't develop enough pressure with a generous cylinder-to-barrel gap. BP substitute requires confinement to develop acceptable pressure levels.

[Hawkeye748]

GOC,

I owe you an apology. I missed your question earlier.

I go through about 30-35 pounds a year. I have roughly 8-10 matches a year plus practice. Each match takes about 2 pounds. I also buy smaller quantities of other grades to for particular guns (I feed each gun what it seems to like) and test loads and such. The 25 lbs. FFFG I bought last fall should last about 15 months.

Back when the range was in my back yard, I went through about 75 a year!:D

The results show now, unfortunately.

[Sagetown]

Hawkeye748 The 25 lbs. FFFG I bought last fall should last about 15 months.

I'd say at a minimum of 25# of BP year after year, if anybody should be an expert on BP, I believe you'd qualify. :)

[Old Cannonballs]

Are you guys retired, or have you figured out a way to shoot black powder for a living??!!!

[Hawkeye748]

Was getting pretty good for a while, but lack of practice is showing. Know others a lot better than me. With my smoothbore, I am classed as expert but only there.

Not retired, just love to shoot. Shoot with N-SSA and shoot revolver, carbine, rifle musket, smoothbore, repeater and Single shot cartidge.

Would love to shoot for a living. Any Sponsers out there?;):)