7.62x25MM reload data needed !


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Duce1
September 30, 2009, 04:42 PM
First I must say high to all . I was once a member here in the beginning of this forum but my life travels took me away for a long time but I am now back and under a new name because I do not remember my old one .

Now to the reason I am here and found this long lost forum that I found doing a internet search .

I am looking to reload 7.62x25 and can not find much on the net for reloading it and nothing in my reloading books here at home .

I would like some " middle of the road " powder charges for it . I just purchased 500 98 grain bullets from Graf & sons and would like to reload them for my CZ52 pistols ( I have 2 of them ).

I normally try to use " Hogdon Titegroup " powder for almost all my pistol loads and would like to use it as well but it is not a requirement .

I am not new to reloading but I am new to this round for reloading .

Any help or internet links to find it would greatly be appreciated .

Thanks in advance Duce1

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rcmodel
September 30, 2009, 04:55 PM
Lyman #49 has a chapter for 7.62 TOK/.30 Mauser.

They show no TightGroup data using jacketed bullets but do show it used with cast lead bullets.

The Hornady Manual also has a chapter, but no data for Tightgroup.

Seems your best results would come with slightly slower powder.

rc

Duce1
September 30, 2009, 05:04 PM
Your probable right . I did find a small amount of information using " Unique " powder ?

I have not used it before so I know little of this powder .

rcmodel
September 30, 2009, 05:08 PM
Alliant Unique is the most versatile handgun powder there is.
That's why they named it Unique!

TightGroup is #10 on the Hodgdon burn rate chart. (10th fastest powder there is)

Unique is # 25.

The 7.62mm TOK is a high pressure round, and will do best safely with medium burn rate powder.

rc

jdh
September 30, 2009, 05:27 PM
Some data here:

http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html

helg
September 30, 2009, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately, the two links

http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=7.62%20x%2025&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

do not list the TiteGroup.

QuickLoad for jacketed bullet of 98 grains, 0.492" (guess from the other bullet), which is seated to OAL 1.253" (again, guessed from the other), over TiteGroup in 4.72" barrel calculates the following data:

- MAX load: 5.05 grains, 1177fps, 34800PSI, which is 100% of the max pressure, All powder burns when bullet travels just .8" in the barrel. I would not suggest to load that hot.

- 70% load: 4.14 grains, 1085fps, 24400PSI, which is 70% of the max SAAMI. Powder burns when bullet travels 1.2" in the barrel

- 50% load: 3.4 grains, 960fps, 17400PSI, which is 50% of the max. Powder burns when bullet travels 1.8" in the barrel.

I agree with rcmodel that TiteGroup seems to be fast powder for the caliber. Appropriate powder burns 90-100% when bullet leaves the barrel. Anyway, paper has no chances with either of the above loads.

While there are two guessed numbers in the above calculations, it should not create too much problems: 7.62x25 is bottlenecked case, and relative case volume change with variances in bullet length and seating depth does not affect parameters as much as it does on short straight wall cases. Anyway, if you seat your bullet so that "OAL minus bullet length" is the same as in the above calculations, the calculated loads are going to be perfectly matching yours.

Needless to say, try to find an alternative source for the load to check mine.

rcmodel
September 30, 2009, 05:45 PM
I suppose Quickload could tell you how much TightGroup to use in a .300 Weatherby too?
But that doesn't mean you should do it.

If I can't find published 7.65 TOK load data using TightGroup from any of the major bullet makers, or the powder company that makes it?
I take that to mean it isn't a suitable and/or safe powder to use in the 7.65 TOK.

rc

helg
September 30, 2009, 06:20 PM
Sure is does. I will not publish the load to prevent confusion. The load does not give max performance for the rifle. When loaded to max pressure it gives muzzle speed for 150gr bullet of only 2400 fps, while the appropriate powder gives 3500. This is more than two times difference in muzzle energy, which is significant.

98 grain Tok bullet with the proper powder flies 1280 fps. Titegroup can not push the bullet that fast, but the paper still has no chances with the powder.

rcmodel
September 30, 2009, 06:26 PM
The problem I see with using very fast powder for very high velocity & pressure is:
The old "Hitting a bowling ball with your fist" thing.

Shoving it with your palm will get it moving faster without hurting yourself in the process!

rc

helg
September 30, 2009, 06:55 PM
I agree. Powder, whch is faster than optimal, can not provide the same performance.

Using faster powder, however, is acceptable, and even beneficial for light loads. Light load has lower pressures, and full-performance powder does not burn completely while bullet is in the barrel: smokeless powder burning speed decreases with lower barrel pressure of the light load. Light loads with performance powder show significant muzzle flash due to unburned powder.

For example, Titegroup becomes an optimal powder for the above parameters in Tokarev with 2.5 grains load. With the load it burns completely at the time when bullet leaves the barrel, pushing the bullet at 778 fps with max pressure of only 9800PSI. This is revolver speed for pure lead bullet, but I believe the Tok action will still function with this load.

NCsmitty
September 30, 2009, 07:45 PM
I loaded the 7.62x25 round for use in a CZ-52 for a while. I used the 100gr Speer plinker half jacket with 7gr of Unique, for a good medium power load.
Finding the fired brass was the only problem that I encountered.


NCsmitty

helg
September 30, 2009, 08:29 PM
100gr Speer plinker half jacket with 7gr of Unique, for a good medium power load.
Hmm. Quickload says that Speer RN PLI 1805 100gr bullet over 7 grains of unique with 1.386" OAL (which is the max) gives 1457fps and 43600PSI. This is 125% of the max pressure for the caliber.

NCsmitty
September 30, 2009, 09:07 PM
This is 125% of the max pressure for the caliber.

That's probably why I couldn't find the brass.

Actually, that load had less felt recoil than factory S&B ammo. Go figure.

NCsmitty

helg
September 30, 2009, 10:21 PM
Ability of the barrel to withstand powder pressure in the bore is proportional to width of the barrel walls, which is measured in calibers.

There are 9mm drop-in barrels for Tokarev pistol. Wall width of the 9mm barrel is about half of the 7.62x25, and the caliber is larger. With this in mind, 7.62x25 barrel should carry more than twice of the max pressure for 9mm. Nevertheless, SAAMI standard states that max pressure for the 7.62x25 is even smaller than the one for 9mm (34800 vs 35000 psi). I am not surprised that 125% 7.62x25 load does not have problems in 7.62x25 barrel.

snuffy
October 1, 2009, 02:48 AM
The CZ-52 pistol is a very weak design. The cuts under the chamber to make room for the roller locking system, weaken the chamber. The heat treat is suspect in war produced weapons. Sometimes it was done properly, sometimes not. If not, the CZ-52 will let go when fed high pressure sub machine gun ammo. Or hand loads loaded up to the max. Just be careful!

R.W.Dale
October 1, 2009, 04:05 AM
The cz52 tends to also be undersprung or under locked if you will

I had both the CZ and a TOK at the same time and one thing I noted immediately is loadings that sent brass from the CZ into low earth orbit sometimes turned out to not be powerful enough to even cycle the tt33

MetalMan52
October 1, 2009, 01:46 PM
Just curious as to what war these were produced during? I thought that they weren't adopted until 1952.
Pat

helg
October 1, 2009, 02:41 PM
Original TT was the main soviet semiautomatic handgun in 40s. It won WWII. With its clones, including CZ, it was in Vietnam - also, at the winning side.

R.W.Dale
October 1, 2009, 03:11 PM
Original TT was the main soviet semiautomatic handgun in 40s. It won WWII. With its clones, including CZ, it was in Vietnam - also, at the winning side.

Are you serious.

Hitlers folly on invading the soviet union, the 8th airforce bombing the fatherland back into the stone age, NUCLEAR WEAPONS

all worthless compared to the tt33

helg
October 1, 2009, 04:04 PM
T34 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34) and TT33 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_pistol) are slightly different weapons. Both have been good for the time, and have won the WWII.

I never heard about TT34. Is it the Soviet top secret weapon that is stronger than THE BOMB?

atblis
October 1, 2009, 04:30 PM
CZ52 is not a TT clone. I don't think it's a clone of anything actually. Don't fall into believing the hype about the 52's strength unless you don't need all your fingers. Wear safety glasses!

IIRC Accurate arms has 7.62x25 data. Might look around for it as I don't see it available on their website.

jdh
October 1, 2009, 06:56 PM
Just curious as to what war these were produced during? I thought that they weren't adopted until 1952.
Pat

Cold War.

Duce1
October 1, 2009, 07:07 PM
WOW !

I was just look for some load data and maybe some help with loading the rounds at home . Thanks to the guys who have chimed in .

Now for the pistol it was adopted in 1952 and was only manufactured until 1954 . I am not sure how long it stayed in service but it was not long from what little I have picked up . And as far as I know was never used in any large number in combat . It might have seen some light use in Vietnam but I have not seen any history on the pistol to prove it .

The pistols where manly held in storage and not issued out any in large numbers and did not see much of the light of day until imported into the U.S.

atblis
October 1, 2009, 07:11 PM
You might bug Clark. He likes to mess around with handloading. :eek:

Seriously. I'd wager he has all the published data for that round on hand.

Tinpig
October 1, 2009, 11:13 PM
The 7.62 TOK page in the Lee Manual lists loads for Accurate #5, #7, and #9 for five jacketed bullet weights (85, 86, 93, 100, and 110 gr.) No other powders or bullets are listed.

I can give you more specific data if you want.

Tinpig

Duce1
October 1, 2009, 11:19 PM
Tinpig , any information at all would be greatly appreciated . Bullets are due to be delivered tomorrow ( Friday ) and I would like to work with them over the weekend .

As you may know by now I have to get powder for them .

Tinpig
October 2, 2009, 01:43 PM
Sure-
Which particular bullet weight and powder data do you want?

Tinpig

Duce1
October 2, 2009, 04:56 PM
Tinpig I just purchased 500 98-grain bullets for it . But any and all would be appreciated for future reference in reloading . Who knows I might go for a different bullet weight next time ?

And I need to go out and buy powder anyway for it .....................

Tinpig
October 2, 2009, 06:18 PM
Here's the data for the 100 gr. jacketed bullet from page 404 of Lee's Modern Reloading (2nd. Ed. 2003, reprinted 2007.)

ACCURATE #9
Start: 10.8 gr. for vel. of 1541 fps
NEVER EXCEED: 12.0 gr. for vel. of 1752 fps
Pressure: 40800 CUP
Min. OAL: 1.300 in.

ACCURATE #7
Start: 8.5 gr. for vel. of 1452 fps
NEVER EXCEED: 9.5 gr. for vel. of 1651 fps
Pressure: 41500 CUP
Min OAL: 1.300 in.

ACCURATE #5
Start: 7.2 gr. for vel. of 1430 fps
NEVER EXCEED: 8.0 gr. for vel. of 1625 fps
Pressure: 41500 CUP
Min. OAL: 1.325 in.

Hope it's what you're looking for. I can vouch for the accuracy of the transcription but not for the loads as I have never reloaded for this caliber.

Tinpig

Tinpig
October 2, 2009, 06:44 PM
Also here are the loads for 7.62 x 25 TOK from the Accurate site, specifically for the CZ 52.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/30Cal(7.62mm)/7.62x25%20Tokarev%20HG%20FINAL.pdf

Quite different from the Lee loads.

Tinpig

Duce1
October 2, 2009, 07:13 PM
Tinpig that will work for me . Thank you very much for your time in helping me . Your a good man .

Tinpig
October 2, 2009, 11:04 PM
Duce1-
Have fun. I'd like to hear how it works out. :)

Tinpig

Duce1
October 2, 2009, 11:07 PM
Tinpig that I can do . I have some 45ACP I need to load up first and then I will get to these I will let you know how they do .

sonier
October 2, 2009, 11:46 PM
I got a lot of brass sitting around to be loaded in my cz-52, but one issue.................can anyone guess? after i load and shoot i can find 2% of the brass lol im building a tarped fly now for my personal shooting range may help things. Ive read h-110 is a fun powder in the 7.62x25 i love fireballs my neighorbors hate them when im shooting at coyotes at night. 3 clips at a time ;)

snuffy
October 3, 2009, 03:04 AM
I got a lot of brass sitting around to be loaded in my cz-52, but one issue.................can anyone guess? after i load and shoot i can find 2% of the brass lol im building a tarped fly now for my personal shooting range may help things. Ive read h-110 is a fun powder in the 7.62x25 i love fireballs my neighorbors hate them when im shooting at coyotes at night. 3 clips at a time
__________________
still trying to find that perfect caliber for my wildcat

Fireballs?? You ain't seen nuthin til you load a CZ-52 with WC-820,(surplus), and a 90 grain bullet at full power!:evil: Noisy too!:what:

As for brass, I use a landing net stapled to my bench to catch those casings, otherwise it'll throw them at least 25 feet! Wouldn't be so bad if they in a pile, no, they're scattered all over!

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 11:23 AM
Catching them is a problem . That is why I have the dies to make new casings out of 223 casings .

atblis
October 3, 2009, 12:32 PM
IIRC Accurate reduced their loads for the 52. The Lee loads could be Accurate's old loads before the reduction.

dogrunner
October 3, 2009, 12:56 PM
Been foolin with mine for five or six years now & the best overall load I've played with is 8.0 of Blue dot under Hornady's XTP 90 grain bullet.........extremely accurate in my '52...........same charge under a hard cast 100 grain rn sized to .308 & lubed w/ alox gives me ragged one hole groups at about 15 yards.

Heard a lot of commentary on the relative strength or lack of it w/ that design..........but the piece I own has functioned flawlessly. I have seen photo's of barrel fractures, but all were contained by the slide itself..........only God knows what formula those shooters were running thru 'em!

Tried to develop a sobot'd load but never could get the gun to cycle reliably with any combination, indeed some of the loads I tried were so out of the ball park I'd never repeat them to anyone.........except to say I was truly surprised the gun held together!

My belief is that the gun IS adequately strong for any reasonable loading. After all, no Government is going to deliberately arm it's soldiers with inherently unsafe weapons, too, the Czech's have always enjoyed a reputation for producing quality arms.

Tinpig
October 3, 2009, 05:10 PM
IIRC Accurate reduced their loads for the 52. The Lee loads could be Accurate's old loads before the reduction.

After comparing the Accurate page with the Lee page, that's what I'm thinking.

Tinpig

sonier
October 3, 2009, 10:07 PM
Duce 1 share with me that secret of 223 cases to 7.62x25, i have about 200 rounds of 223 blanks lol, no 223 lol. so i wana know this trick. ALSO bet you could do it with steel casing too ;) no flamin peeps, if i blow my own head off it aint your fault, let me do my own thing thankyas

SONIER

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 10:50 PM
Duce 1 share with me that secret of 223 cases to 7.62x25, i have about 200 rounds of 223 blanks lol, no 223 lol. so i wana know this trick. ALSO bet you could do it with steel casing too ;) no flamin peeps, if i blow my own head off it aint your fault, let me do my own thing thankyas

SONIER
sonier You have to trim the 223 casings to length and use a set of forming dies you can buy off MidwayUSA for a little over 100 bucks . I went ahead and purchased the dies after trying to find the brass after shooting and was lucky to find 1 out of every 10 I shot !
I found out about the ability to convert 223 casings from a friend and went ahead and invested the money for future use as long as I own the weapons .

sonier
October 3, 2009, 11:16 PM
AWSOME thank you duce, ill be looking at those, now for that paycheck too get it. lol thats good to know though thankyou

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