mattd
November 1, 2003, 10:56 PM
well?
What makes you free?
If you enjoyed reading about "What makes you free?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Marko Kloos
November 1, 2003, 11:07 PM
I am free because I choose to be free.
No law can give me freedom, and no law can take it away.
No law can give me freedom, and no law can take it away.
Skunkabilly
November 2, 2003, 01:18 AM
Uhh...my parents gave me away :uhoh:
The theory is Gosh made me free and the Constitution defines those freedoms. Only some of them count in California.
The theory is Gosh made me free and the Constitution defines those freedoms. Only some of them count in California.
tyme
November 2, 2003, 02:36 AM
I'm free?
Dionysusigma
November 2, 2003, 03:38 AM
What makes you free?
Whenever my boss gives me the day off :D
Geez, that's a toughie. God gave us free will, but we don't always seem to realize it. In 1984, Winston Smith observes "If there is any hope for a revolution, it lies in the Proles." The lowly everyday proles, however, are content to go to work, go to the bar, play the lottery, and sleep. They fail to realize their potential, and thus lose their freedom. They are forever enslaved (for lack of a better word) by their own ignorance. They will never rise up, never demand change; they will take what is given to them and not ask questions. For them, life is what it is and will always be the same.
In turn, the next people higher up on the ladder (though they may be considered free) also aren't. They are nothing more than middle management; they give orders and recieve orders, and do what they are told out of fear for their jobs, lives, or both. They may be better dressed and better fed, but nevertheless they are nothing more than a facade for the Proles to fear.
Lastly, the leaders. They are the only people that may possibly be thought of as free, but once again, are not. Diplomats and dictators alike are constantly followed and surrounded by attendants, bodyguards, and other entourage. For these people, even going to the bathroom is not a private matter. They fear their own middle-management, in case one of them attempts an assassination. They fear the Proles, if for nothing else then for their potential in case a Revolution should erupt. Most importantly, though, these people fear change. They tend to get too cozy in their made-up environment, able to effectively change the way of life for themselves and their underlings but are unwilling to do so. Possibly, a change made in the best interests of the people may ignite a revolt. Who knows--it's probably best not to move the table if you risk breaking the vase on the tabletop.
For me, a big part of being free is knowing that if I have a problem with the system, I can let someone in charge know. Hopefully that person will heed my request, make the necessary change and everyone's life will be a tad easier. If they don't listen, however, I always have the option of rallying the "Proles," who, in this case, aren't ignorant... but know as well as I (and maybe better than me) that We the People have some real power behind us when we band together. Being free is knowing that I myself have the right to effect change at my discretion.
And I'll fight to the death to defend it.
Whenever my boss gives me the day off :D
Geez, that's a toughie. God gave us free will, but we don't always seem to realize it. In 1984, Winston Smith observes "If there is any hope for a revolution, it lies in the Proles." The lowly everyday proles, however, are content to go to work, go to the bar, play the lottery, and sleep. They fail to realize their potential, and thus lose their freedom. They are forever enslaved (for lack of a better word) by their own ignorance. They will never rise up, never demand change; they will take what is given to them and not ask questions. For them, life is what it is and will always be the same.
In turn, the next people higher up on the ladder (though they may be considered free) also aren't. They are nothing more than middle management; they give orders and recieve orders, and do what they are told out of fear for their jobs, lives, or both. They may be better dressed and better fed, but nevertheless they are nothing more than a facade for the Proles to fear.
Lastly, the leaders. They are the only people that may possibly be thought of as free, but once again, are not. Diplomats and dictators alike are constantly followed and surrounded by attendants, bodyguards, and other entourage. For these people, even going to the bathroom is not a private matter. They fear their own middle-management, in case one of them attempts an assassination. They fear the Proles, if for nothing else then for their potential in case a Revolution should erupt. Most importantly, though, these people fear change. They tend to get too cozy in their made-up environment, able to effectively change the way of life for themselves and their underlings but are unwilling to do so. Possibly, a change made in the best interests of the people may ignite a revolt. Who knows--it's probably best not to move the table if you risk breaking the vase on the tabletop.
For me, a big part of being free is knowing that if I have a problem with the system, I can let someone in charge know. Hopefully that person will heed my request, make the necessary change and everyone's life will be a tad easier. If they don't listen, however, I always have the option of rallying the "Proles," who, in this case, aren't ignorant... but know as well as I (and maybe better than me) that We the People have some real power behind us when we band together. Being free is knowing that I myself have the right to effect change at my discretion.
And I'll fight to the death to defend it.
Chris Rhines
November 2, 2003, 07:42 AM
My understanding that I am soley responsible for my own life.
- Chris
- Chris
Tamara
November 2, 2003, 07:48 AM
Nothing makes me free; it's a simple artifact of self-awareness.
Glock Glockler
November 2, 2003, 11:25 AM
No law can give me freedom, and no law can take it away.
Perhaps this is a semantical debate over "freedom" or "liberty" but I'd be very interested to see how free you'd be if you decided to open up a shop selling newly converted full-auto AR-15s with an ounce of heroin if you order over 3 rifles.
Do you pay those income taxes because you choose to, are you one of thse types that gets a little tickle out of "paying your fair share"? I know, you do it all for the children.
It seems to me that true freedom is a state of mind as well as a state lacking outside coercion.
Perhaps this is a semantical debate over "freedom" or "liberty" but I'd be very interested to see how free you'd be if you decided to open up a shop selling newly converted full-auto AR-15s with an ounce of heroin if you order over 3 rifles.
Do you pay those income taxes because you choose to, are you one of thse types that gets a little tickle out of "paying your fair share"? I know, you do it all for the children.
It seems to me that true freedom is a state of mind as well as a state lacking outside coercion.
Andrew Rothman
November 2, 2003, 11:32 AM
Nothing makes me free; it's a simple artifact of self-awareness.
Exactly.
I'd be very interested to see how free you'd be if you decided to open up a shop selling newly converted full-auto AR-15s with an ounce of heroin if you order over 3 rifles.
I gotta find this shop!
Seriously...
Freedom does not equal power.
My ancestor Og the Caveman was free, but that didn't protect him from taking a stroll through the tiger's den. The tiger did not recognize his freedom. So Og had to balance his "inalienable rights" against real-world consequences.
Freedom does not equal prosperity.
His freedom did not put food on his table (well, it was just a patch of dirt...). He was free to starve. He survived only if he worked hard enough to hunt and gather enough to live.
Exactly.
I'd be very interested to see how free you'd be if you decided to open up a shop selling newly converted full-auto AR-15s with an ounce of heroin if you order over 3 rifles.
I gotta find this shop!
Seriously...
Freedom does not equal power.
My ancestor Og the Caveman was free, but that didn't protect him from taking a stroll through the tiger's den. The tiger did not recognize his freedom. So Og had to balance his "inalienable rights" against real-world consequences.
Freedom does not equal prosperity.
His freedom did not put food on his table (well, it was just a patch of dirt...). He was free to starve. He survived only if he worked hard enough to hunt and gather enough to live.
Glock Glockler
November 2, 2003, 12:34 PM
Ok, so when is someone not free?
If someone is in jail for nothing more than believing something that the state disagrees with are they still free?
For some reason I seem to think that people in the US are more free than people in the USSR and Nazi Germany were, but I guess I'm wrong if it had nothing more to do with how they thought of themselves.
If someone is in jail for nothing more than believing something that the state disagrees with are they still free?
For some reason I seem to think that people in the US are more free than people in the USSR and Nazi Germany were, but I guess I'm wrong if it had nothing more to do with how they thought of themselves.
Tamara
November 2, 2003, 12:42 PM
If someone is in jail for nothing more than believing something that the state disagrees with are they still free?
They're still free, but the scope of their actions may be limited.
Your actions may be limited to charging the guards or dying on the wire or hoping that you'll survive to escape or be released, but freedom and slavery largely exist within the mind. A wild animal in a cage is still a wild animal; a cow wandering loose is doomed to be food. ;)
They're still free, but the scope of their actions may be limited.
Your actions may be limited to charging the guards or dying on the wire or hoping that you'll survive to escape or be released, but freedom and slavery largely exist within the mind. A wild animal in a cage is still a wild animal; a cow wandering loose is doomed to be food. ;)
tyme
November 2, 2003, 12:46 PM
a. Psychological freedom (Gandhi, MLK while in prison with no possessions and almost no freedom of speech beyond the acts of civil disobedience, being imprisoned, and going on a hunger strike)
b. Pragmatic freedom (Decl. of Independence, and BoR stuff)
c. Action taking advantage (or showing deficiencies in) option b.
I think there's a good argument for each one. C is the most interesting, I think, because you're only free under that definition if you take advantage of pragmatic freedom being offered by your government, or if you take advantage of lack of preemption of pragmatic freedom knowing you will be punished because of anti-freedom laws. Essentially, freedom is reached by hitting the walls that bound it.
I suppose they could be relabelled, "freedom of mind," "freedom of action," and "freedom through action."
b. Pragmatic freedom (Decl. of Independence, and BoR stuff)
c. Action taking advantage (or showing deficiencies in) option b.
I think there's a good argument for each one. C is the most interesting, I think, because you're only free under that definition if you take advantage of pragmatic freedom being offered by your government, or if you take advantage of lack of preemption of pragmatic freedom knowing you will be punished because of anti-freedom laws. Essentially, freedom is reached by hitting the walls that bound it.
I suppose they could be relabelled, "freedom of mind," "freedom of action," and "freedom through action."
CommonSense
November 2, 2003, 06:05 PM
We're all free. Just ask your government.
Glock Glockler
November 2, 2003, 06:58 PM
Tyme,
I think you hit the nail on he head, thanks.
I think you hit the nail on he head, thanks.
Carnitas
November 2, 2003, 07:32 PM
My wife. When she says go ahead and go to the range. I'll watch the kids.
That's as close as it gets.
That's as close as it gets.
If you enjoyed reading about "What makes you free?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.