[spacemanspiff]

my brother dropped by to pick me up on his way to a hockey game, and he says:
brother: "okay, i dont mind if you have your gun around me, but i dont want a round chambered."
me: ".......what?"
brother: "around me or my kids, i dont want you to have your gun chambered."
me: "..............why?"
brother: "because i dont want it."
me: "and this makes you safer how?"
brother: "i dont want to get in a debate about it."
me: "i'm not debating you, i just would like a reason."
brother: "because. i dont want it."
me: "..................NO. i wont allow you, or anyone to tell me how i should carry."
brother: "alright then. i'll take you back to your home. no hard feelings."
me: "of course not. but its sad that your complete ignorance of firearms and how i handle them brings you to this decision."



now at first, i was upset, and wanted to tear him a new one. but i know that wont make any difference. hes a stubborn sob, and nothing i say or do will change his mind. i have an idea of where hes getting this misinformation from. hes divorcing his wife of ten years, and is talking about marrying this other woman hes fallen in love with. i think shes fed his mind with the idea that his kids and himself are endangered by my carrying cocked and locked.

but who knows? this may have been his position all along. hes not anti-gun but he has no interest in becoming proficient with his handgun, doesnt even want to spend time at the range or spend money on ammo. he wont take the concealed weapons course, thinking he never needs to carry on his person. he wont buy a shotgun for home defense.

i dont think his kids even know he has a gun, and they are already old enough and smart enough to shoot .22 if he would train them.
he keeps his ruger p90 in his vehicle and takes it in when he gets home, but it isnt chambered.

it is too bad that his decision will keep me from going to his place, or doing just about anything with him or his kids. but in a way, i'm relieved.

[Standing Wolf]

Some people just don't care to be troubled to comprehend the fundamentals: that's all.

My brother missed a few of the fundamentals along the way. I try to figure it's his life, not mine, and don't spend much time with him.

[Edward429451]

Sounds like a reasonable request to me. I think you should respect him on it. Whats going to happen in his house that itd be life & death if you werent chambered?

You may be totally safe with guns, but if he's not comfortable with it and its his place, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

[Tamara]

brother: "okay, i dont mind if you have your gun around me, but i dont want a round chambered."

Me: "That's cool; pull over right here. Oh, and dinner's off for this Saturday. Gimme a call if you want to talk about why."

If somebody in my family wants to play power games, I'm up for it. If they really don't want to be around me when I'm packing, well, then that's cool too; I don't go places where I can't pack. I'm pretty sure that when they realize I'm as serious as they are, we can reach some sort of modus vivendi.

My little sister's in therapy because she can't figure out why, when she's thirty-one and a successful dentist, she still hid the liquor bottles at her house when mom and dad would come over for dinner. "I envy the way you can stand up to the rest of the family and do what you think is right," she said to me. I replied "Actually it's pretty easy; I only have to look at one face in the mirror every morning; as long as that person's happy with me, everything else can be worked out."

[cool45auto]

When my fiance goes to her parent's house in south GA her dad makes her carry with no round in the chamber. I haven't been to their house yet and don't know what'll happen when he tells me the same. I wouldn't have said anything in the first place about carrying but my fiance was doing something and he saw her gun then she told him about me carrying, too.

[tomkatz]

I totally agree with Tamara's point of view on this, I don't go where I can't pack, and I won't let anyone tell me how to do it. Period. Absolute end of story......tom

[vertigo7]

I've had this conversation with friends. To be blunt I find it rather insulting they would deliberately choose to value their bleeding-heart opinions more than they value my safety. I don't spend time with those folks anymore. My choice to carry for defense was not a lightly made decision, and my methods and techniques while doing so are not open to debate. They can say whatever they like and I will hear them out, and even educate them as to the reasons why I've made the choices I have if they're honestly interested in my point of view. With family, if they want to declare that they don't want me in their homes while locked and loaded, that's their right and I will obey their wishes. When they want to see me, they're welcome to come and visit me in my home, because I will not be visiting theirs. I do agree it's an unfortunate situation to be placed in.

I posed a question to a friend who was livid I was carrying while we were downtown late one night after a concert. It was about 3am and some rather unfriendly looking folks were on the streets. Noticing her windows were rolled up, all doors locked, and that she was checking all mirrors every few seconds, I asked if she'd feel totally safe if she unlocked the doors and rolled the windows down. She said "That's crazy! Why should I give them a free shot at me?" I pointed out that's exactly what she was ordering for me to do by insisting I carry unchambered. (point of fact, I had one in the pipe despite her demands). She got quiet, muttered "that's completely different." and refused further comment the whole ride home.

[sm]

I don't play these games either. I will re-state for those whom haven't read before ( apologies to those that have). I paid for the CCW training ammo, license fee, fingeprinting...everything for a brother to obtain the CCW. He refused to send it in. Made an "excuse" then later admitted he lied. Now he wanted, he asked for and I provided, the means. He sometimes travels in bad areas. He and family do take trips. Ok, his choice, to change his mind. For whatever reason he is not anti gun--just not Pro active in personal responsibility about self defece for him or family. We clashed-big time. This in itself the BIG factors in we as family...well we ain't. I have mom, that's it. She passes, well figure I'd leave this world alone anyway, so what.

I've carried too long, even before permits were needed, and yes I've needed my firearm. I do take care of mom. Mom took care of her granddaughter today, this is the first time I've seen my niece in about a year. Mom knows and never says a thing about my CCW, she understands, comforted by the fact. Concealed means concealed, I played T ball in the backyard, we made a Lincoln Log house...neice never knew, I never had a concern about the ability to protect me or them today.

Yep, I left before her parents came to pick her up. I made my decsion too many years ago , they made theirs. I'd sure like to take that little gal shooting...she remembers when I took her out last time. I just ignored the question and batted practice balls for her to field. When she is old enough to make her own choices, and I still around, yep, I'll teach.

I asked the family to not call me when they wake up dead. I really don't want to ID anyone. I worked in a OR once, seen plenty of nasty stuff and death. Their choice...I don't play games, I'm not anyone's doormat.

Mom asked what will happen to my guns. I have a few really close friends local, if they pass, well I have friends here. Its a matter of principle with me.

[Phantom Warrior]

Maybe point out that there is a greater chance of an ND if you handle it than if it's locked down in a holster with the trigger covered.

But definitely draw the line. If you aren't endangering anyone, which you aren't, how you carry is your business...

[Aikibiker]

I had a friend call me on carrying with a round in the chamber once. He recieved a lecture on modern firearms design. He has since not commented on the matter.

Sometimes it is better to through the technical jargon at people.

[Jeff White]

My younger brother (the one that's a United Church of Christ Minister) is always on me for carrying period. Ruined a Thanksgiving for the entire family one year when he started on it the minute I walked in the door with my family. He had made a family decision, I was out of the jurisdiction where I was a peace officer at so I had no need to be armed!

I only brought his profession up, because he wasn't raised that way. I am convinced that because it was a hot political issue for the UCC that he felt it necessary to preach on it.

Jeff

[spacemanspiff]

Sounds like a reasonable request to me. I think you should respect him on it. Whats going to happen in his house that itd be life & death if you werent chambered?
You may be totally safe with guns, but if he's not comfortable with it and its his place, I wouldn't make a big deal out

well it is his perogative to surround himself with unprepared potential victims. i wont argue with him about, i just wont go to his place. i wont be able to go to a restaurant with him, and i wont be able to spend time with his kids.
but think about your question for a moment. home invasions do happen, while the residents are at home. what good does is a defensive weapon if it isnt in ready condition?
and as it was said, there is a greater risk of a ND the more time the weapon is spent removed and inserted into the holster. in fact, the only time i remove the weapon from the holster is when i use the restroom. unless i am dryfiring or cleaning it, it remains in the holster, always loaded.

i was trying this past week (yet again) to get him to obtain a CCW. he says "i've made it 32 yrs without needing it, i'm fine."

i wouldnt shed a tear if i never said another word to my brother. or if i never saw his kids. thats just me though. i dont have a close relationship with them, as great as his kids are, they managed several years without being around me, they'll manage a few more years i'm sure. but my brother is the kind of person that likes to stir controversy. knowing him, he'll probably try to convince my mother that she should ask the same of me. i guess i'll just have that much more time to myself.

[sm]

Brother not raised that way either Jeff White, he did become a Baptist deacon...similar situations we share. Yeah I do holidays by myself.

Nothing wrong with belief in a Power greater than yourself, prayer is good, I still figure that Power expects me to take responsiblity and take action...situational awareness. I also believe we are to "be vigilant" ...been known to say a prayer while doing what had to done to save my bacon...then again...I ain't a deacon,what do I know?

[Sergeant Bob]

If all it takes for someone to dump their families is a disagreement over carrying or loaded/empty chambers, there probably wasn't much there in the first place.

[Aikibiker]

I don't know what book those churchmen are reading, but my bible has all sorts of stuff in it about carrying arms and acting in defense of yourself and the innocent.

I must have the older version, I'll have to go to the local liberal re-education center and pick up the approved one.

[Jeff White]

Sergeant Bob,

I never said I dumped my brother...said it was a point of contention and he did start the arguement at Thanksgiving dinner one year.

Jeff

[sm]

SB
In my case family made a choice long time ago. I tried many times for the sake of mom and doint g the right thing. The CCW was the nail in the coffin for me. I help raise, fed and shelter them. I was the one whom defended them from an attack using a firearm one from BGs whom broke the front door down, Others include rabid dogs and such.

Church, yeah I attend sometimes, naturally elsewhere. Where I attend Full Bird Col. as preacher on active duty right now. Actually used a pc of reloading equip in a sermon not long ago. Point being without knowledge most folks wouldn't know what is was, people that did know it was a die for a reloader need to read instructions, follow directions and practice to be profiecent with any tool. Take the initiative to be responsible so as to not reload improper...personal responsibility. Imagine that. ;)

Same preacher whom said he records sermons, so if need to attend a shoot/ help with a CCW class...well...who knows whom is watching me. I ain't thumping a Good Book, maybe the way I carry myself during a shoot/ helping with a CCW class is what I'm supposed to do. I can always use my tape deck later.

[BluesBear]

Spiff & 1973,

I fell for y'all. I had to learn the hard way that some of my friends were only aquaintances.

Since both of my parents have passed away, the only family I have now is my adopted family, which, by the way, I have a stronger bond with than anyone except my Father. Most of them carry but the few that don't at least understand me and why I do.

As BabaLouie said once or twice on THR...
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.

The High Road isn't always the Easy Road.

[Sergeant Bob]

Jeff, I didn't mean anyone in particular, just a general thought and it goes both ways too. If someone is willing to dump you or possibly damage the relationship over the issue, it shows a lack of trust on their part. If someone in my family didn't trust me, I'd have a real hard time treating them as family. I have a pretty tight family though and our values are very similar, and none of them have any problem with me dragging out my hardware in preparation for war.:D

[sm]

Well I did put myself up for adoption. Nobody wants a 48 y/o male it seems.:D
No Rich parents called me...and for darn sure no attractive young ladies...I'm still available tho'. :p

Will shoot for food.

[BluesBear]

LOL re1973

Hells Bells Brother I am in EXACTLY the same boat!

Lemme know if you're ever out Seattle way.

[sm]

Hey I actually want to head that way some day.
My multiple permits don't include Seattle...not real sure what does. I mean I can't have myself walking around unnarmed. I'd be upset for one and just not the THR way... walking around nekkid and all. ;)

I can see myself flanked with Blues Bear and pax... me with no gun...gotta find a permit for out that way first. Can't upset the THR family now can we?:p

[Zundfolge]

So is he going to check the chamber?

If not, then just lie to him ... then the only way he'll ever find out about it is if you need your gun, in which case I doubt he'll care that you carried with a round in the chamber.

[BluesBear]

Of course





you could






just







Switch to a REVOLVER !


:what: **** :neener: **** :evil:

[spacemanspiff]

well zund, i thought about that, but if i *said* i'd give in, even if i really didnt i'd feel worse about myself. the thing that gets me is that it is fueled by the same tripe we hear from antis who say that 'guns are bad' and 'guns go off and kill people'. obviously this kind of ignorance is spouted from gunowners.

when my brother moved back from airzona i was showing off my small collection of boomsticks, and he was surprised that i carry cocked & locked. so i went over the design of the 1911 with him, showed him the manual safety, and the beavertail grip safety and demonstrated (with no magazine in and nothing in the chamber - note i didnt say 'unloaded') that the only way the hammer could possibly fall is with a deliberate motion to disengage the safety and having a proper hold on the backstrap and pulling the trigger.
already thats one more safety than his ruger p90 has, but i digress. in fact, a couple other family members have commented upon seeing the hammer cocked.

its a matter of principles. my principles guide me to always be in a state of readiness, i train myself in one way, and to monkey with that mindset could prove fatal. what happens when something bad does happen, and i go to pull the trigger on a weapon that i assume is fully loaded, but find an empty chamber instead? i'm not trained for that.
those who do carry unchambered, they have trained their reflexes to work the slide, and thats great.

as far as family is concerned, between aunts, uncles, siblings, neices, nephews, cousins, theres probably close to a total of 70, and thats just on my mothers side, i know few of my dads relatives. of all them, i can count on one hand those who i would shed a tear for. it barely take two hands to count those who i keep contact with.
heck, i can count close friends on one hand.

theres a quote that i like to reflect upon:
"every man alone is sincere. at the presence of a second, hypocrisy begins."

[Dilettante]

I'm sorry to hear that some peoples' families are even more dysfunctional than mine. :rolleyes:

Spiff, it takes more than 5 seconds and saying "I said so" to educate a person. Especially when it comes to safety issues.

When I'm at the range I don't want anyone pointing a gun in my direction, whether they think it's loaded or not. Maybe your brother has some misunderstandings about how firearms work and what states are more dangerous. You know what? So does 95% of the planet (and I'll wager a few people here too).

If you can't even work things out with your gun-owning brother, you can't possibly help with the bigger problem of public hostility.

Apologize to your brother (for your reaction, not for your principles) and offer to pack a revolver when you're at his place. :)

[swampsniper]

My carry gun is always in the same state of readiness, always in the same places relative to where I am. No one is going to change any aspect of this except me. First time you drop a hammer on an empty chamber you emptied to please someone, and then forgot, or reach for a gun that has been moved, could be your last. Had a girl friend that is afraid of guns and knives, would move stuff around, even hide stuff. She is gone. If she can't sleep with a 12 ga. pumpgun racked next to the bed, she can sleep anywhere else.
Don't even discuss the issue, just do your thing.

http://groups.msn.com/Riflephotos

[Sean Smith]

Avoid stupid advice.

[Edward429451]

but think about your question for a moment. home invasions do happen, while the residents are at home. what good does is a defensive weapon if it isnt in ready condition?

From what I've heard of home invasions, they;re usuaally there for something and come in with guns drawn but not blazing, and instruct the occupants to get the money or drugs etc. It takes two seconds or less to draw and rack the slide, not long. You'd still have a very good chance of coming out on top. You'd have to be a little tactical about it though.

Doesn't he lock his doors? That'd give you time to chamber right there. If they made it in and you're sittin on an unchambered gun, I'd try to seperate them with a "its in the crawlspace", "Its downstairs" or something. Either he goes to look, leaving his buddy there, or he goes with you to make you retrieve it. Either way it separates them incresing your chances to be able to draw & chamber. Not a good scenario, but not likely that it'd happen anyway.

I don't think it would make that much of a difference. It'd be grim either way. Probably depends on the level of contention your family holds. Your brain's still your primary weapon. Given the odds, I'd go for securing family relations. But thats me and I dont know your family situation. Good luck with whatever you decide. My family's all gun nuts so I don't have to deal with that aspect. Family is important though. I would respect his wishes inside his house only, once outside, all bets are off. If they didn't want to go to a restaurant while I was chambered, that'd be his problem.

[Mike Irwin]

Sometimes even close family isn't worth the fight. Just because they're related by blood doesn't mean you have to pander to their every wish.

If you were in his home, I'd be more accommodating to his point of view, but otherwise, no. I think you did the right thing.

[CZ-100]

Just do as he requests, its NO biggie. Life is to short to fight over little things like this.

[Hkmp5sd]

I didn't know such families existed. No one in my family would ever consider making such statements. Half the time when you go visit them, their pulling out their latest/greatest to brag about. As a matter of fact, I can't even think of one of my friends that would try to dictate what you carried, even inside their home.

However, a person can place any requirements they want on visitors to their home. If that requirement has anything to do with me not carrying a firearm the way I want, I won't be visiting.

[revlar]

The extent to which a person is prepared to defend themselves is a PERSONAL decision with PERSONAL consequences. If another doesn't like it - tough. They make their own personal decisions. I do not allow anyone to smoke in my house. Extreme? Unfair? Maybe. But it is MY house and I don't want either myself or my grandchildren breathing smoke unnecessarily. You can either abide by my wishes or do not enter my house. If a relative, or a friend, or anyone else does not want me carring a firearm into their house, or wants to qualify how I carry a firearm into their house or in their presence - fine. I will not enter their house or be in their presence. This, in fact, contributed to the recent termination of a long-time friendship of my own. He did not want anyone carrying a firearm into his house, so I no longer enter his house. My issue (smoking) is one of personal health. His issue (carrying) is one of trust. If a person trusts you enough to ride in a car you are driving - or trusts you enough to consume food you have prepared - why would they not trust you when it comes to carrying a firearm?
If anyone makes the conscious and voluntary choice to not trust me - I have no choice but to not trust them.

[tomkatz]

Ya know, all this is pretty irrelevant if nobody knows you are packin, in my case it is concealed and I don't discuss it with anyone. I carry in ways where I would NEVER have to remove the gun around folks. This thread can be a lesson to everyone to keep quiet and pack it the way you want to;) .......tom

[winstonsmith]

Have a heart to heart with your brother. Talk to him about how it hurts you that he doesn't trust you. Don't talk about it tactically or logically, doesn't sound like he (or any other person with anti tendencies) would respond to anything but heartstring pulling.

Logic vs. Emotion, a classical debate. "I don't like it" as a reason is the hallmark of a small mind. I'm sure he's great about other things, but on this issue, he could use some work. I have the same issue with my mom about carrying a knife. As a minor, she doesn't want me to. But of course she wants me to get guns when I'm older to protect her when she's an old lady. She doesn't seem to get that she can buy guns NOW instead of waiting. Antis, what can I say?

If he still doesn't want you able to defend yourself around him even though you've explained to him that it hurts you that he doesn't trust you, and that might drive a major wedge between you, then there it is. You'll have to either compromise your principles, or lose contact with blood.

[pax]

My response to demands from unreasonable family members has always been a sympathetic, "I understand."

Then I go and do whatever I think is best, with no further discussion.

Pretty straightforward, really.

pax

[Moparmike]

Actually, my mom wants to get into CCW. My stepfather on the other hand doesnt see a point to CCW or having more than a loaded .22lr in the house.

My mom is rather weak wristed, so I am thinking that I want her to have a revolver. Really simple to operate too. Unfortunately, I cant get into CCW, so getting her into it will take a little work. I am going to try to get her to a range and rent one. Is a 4" barrel too long for CCW in a fanny-pack?

My dad on the other hand doesnt like loaded guns in his house. He is relatively open to logic, ala "If its for defensive purposes, an unloaded gun is a club, and not a gun." He seemed to agree.

[BluesBear]

revlar,
I don't smoke, never have and never will.
There is no smoking allowed in my house or car either.

I have a few friends that smoke and they are more than welcome to carry their cigarettes in my home and car. Since all of them are curtious and responsibe, I don't require that anyone remove the flint from their Zippo.

So far I haven't had to worry about spontanious combustion releasing any deady tar & nicotine filled smoke in my proximity.

[Darrin]

The only thing that's been said to me was my Dad. He said, "I wouldn't carry a gun cocked and locked," but he didn't tell me I couldn't do it around him! :D

If I was around someone who wasn't crazy about guns and made a statement like that to me, (how I should carry), I'd probably just excuse myself from the situation.

[Hazwaste]

Seems like a simple and correct resolution. If he doesn't want a round chambered while in his private home, and you don't want to carry without one, each goes their separate way with no hard feelings. Of course, with my family there would be plenty of hard feelings on their side.

Ain't freedom of choice wonderful?

[JPM70535]

If you love the 1911 but want to keep peace in the family, why not opt for a Para-Ordnance LDA. with the hammer down and the safety on, it doesn't present the same menacing (to the SHEEPLE) look that cocked and locked does, when in fact it is.

I tried explaining the 1011s multiple safeties to Antis, and it was just like talking to a wall. Now when they see my weapon, no negative comments are forthcoming.

Or as has been said, just carry a revolver.

[Carnitas]

Repeat after me: " Oh, I never carry with a round in the chamber. "

Then do what ever you want.

[Peetmoss]

I can't undetstand why anyone suggesting complying or trying to compromize in this situation. To me compromize is not even worth considering. My life is more valuable to me then others view about guns.

[BluesBear]

If a LDA is what it will take to satisfy your brother then

TELL TO HIM BUY YOU ONE!

[aikidoka-mks]

I would have to politley say no thanks if someone in my family said that. About the only thing I do when i go to someone's home is put the safety on. That way, if someone realizes Im carrying and asks if its loaded I can say sure but the safety is on. Hopefully that will ease their uninformed nerves. Usually I carry my walther ppk/s chambered safety off since the first shot is double action.

Of course I may eventually add a keltec to my collection so it would be very difficult for anyone to notice :-)

Mark

[spacemanspiff]

coincidentally, i do want a para! a couple of them in fact....

i appreciate the comments advocating patching things up, but i'm one of the few who really wouldnt be crushed if i had no family around. i've been a loner most of my life, maintaining only a handful of friends and even that is kept at short periods of time.

between THR and playing MOHAA online, that pretty much is my entire social life. pathetic, huh? but ya know what? i couldnt be happier than when i am alone.

i've never had a close relationship with my brother. growing up, i hated him because he was physcially abusive, and he hated me cause i was a PITA. it wasnt until i was about 21 before i found that we had some of the same interests and therefore a reason to hang out with him and his family.
i dont even have a relationship with my sister, shes a drug addicted lowlife scum and an unfit mother. its been almost 7 years since i talked with my father, heck, i can count on one hand the exact number of times i've seen him since i was 3 yrs old.

dysfunctional family? i dont even have the slightest idea of what a loving family is like. i've seen it among others, but never experienced it.

[HankB]

. . . a couple other family members have commented upon seeing the hammer cocked. Uhhh . . . doesn't concealed mean CONCEALED? ;)

Anyway, I'm really the only "shooter" in my family, and I follow a "don't tell" policy. When cousins, aunts, uncles, etc., visit and we go out to eat or something, I carry concealed and don't say anything. No reason to advertise.

If I take my mother - who doesn't shoot - somewhere, she asks "Browning or Glock today?" and "Do you have your wallet with your carry license?" (Carry-over habit from checking to make sure I had a hat and gloves back when I was a little kid.)

She hasn't told her sisters I pack, either - she's smart enough not to advertise.

[Balog]

What's MOHAA?

[Dorrin79]

Neither my family nor my friends have the right to tell me how to live my life.

If they try to force the issue, they can stop spending time around me.

[OEF_VET]

I guess I'm lucky in that my family is totally cool with my carrying, even though most of them don't own guns at all. The only time my mom has ever mentioned it at all was to ask me where it was after I came home drunk. I was home on leave and went out with friends. Knowing that I'd be drinking, I left the gun in the glove box and the car at a friends place of business, and had a friend drive me home. My mom was primarily concerned that someone might steal my car and get my gun too. After taking a shower I went and retrieved my car and my gun, all safe and sound where I left them.

My other family members know I carry and not one of them has the slightest problem with it.

My fiance is so cool with it, she paid for my FL non-resident permit as a Christmas gift two years ago. Now, that's love! :D

Frank

[semf]

Hell, I'd be upset if my family told me how to eat Cheerios.
I guess I'm lucky while most of my family thinks my interest in guns is obsessive they're not anti. They treat me as more of an oddity than a blacksheep.
Last month my uncle came to visit from Ala. when he asked to see my gun (trying a new concealment rig that didn't work well) I unloaded it and handed it to him, my mom was surprised to see that I carried a loaded gun.I explained to her that an unloaded gun is just an ugly paperweight she looked confused and then laughed at her own silliness. That's the most problems I've ever had from my birth family.
My mom is not really anti she just has no use for guns that's man's business.
I just gave my father his first gun he has owned in 25 years and his first handgun.
And my stepfather has no use for handguns because "you cain't hit nuttin wth em". He don't have no teeth so he talks funny.

[spacemanspiff]

hank, my immediate family (and a few non-immediate) know i carry, so when i go to my mothers home i occasionally take off the concealing garment.

balog, MOHAA = Medal Of Honor Allied Assault. its a first-person shooter computer game i play online. computer ai sucks as an opponent, but playing against other real people is a huge challenge.

[Balog]

Ah, never played that one. Love the "Firearms" mod for Half-Life, tho.
Oh, and IMHO a good relationship with one's family is never worth losing the ability to defend yourself by the most effective means. And this coming from someone with a very close relationship with his family. Some things are worth risking a relationship over. My family didn't like my getting married or joining the Marine Corps. I damaged my relationship with them by doing these (and other) things. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. Some things are worth the sacrifice.