Steel case reloading !


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Duce1
October 2, 2009, 08:41 PM
Pictured below are some boxer primed steel case rounds I reloaded today for something to do .

For some . Yes steel case can be reloaded .

There are arguments all over this that say it is OK to do so and others will tell you to not risk it . I am not posting this to start a thread on right and wrong ? If you should or should not ? or safety of reloading them .

For the answer . Yes it can be done as you can see in the picture . I have been doing this to these rounds since they started coming out in boxer primed casings with no problems .

I will reload them once and discard them after that . I have plenty of 223 brass casings to make up any difference if I need to . But I do like to reload these as well . Notice I have said one time reloading and then I am done with them .

The trick to reloading them is to use steel dies and not carbide dies .

Follow the normal lube the casing before running through the dies and you will have no problem doing it .

They can and sooner or later will mess up your carbide dies so stay away from using the carbide .

Pictured below .

( loaded with 55 grain Sierra soft point rounds with 24 grains of BenchMark powder and CCI small rifle primers . )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/rescue2553/steelcase223.jpg

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jcwit
October 2, 2009, 09:44 PM
I went around and around about this with .45 ACP steel and alu. cases about a year ago. You are correct, yes it can be done.

BTW I reloaded them 5 times in my experiment.

Walkalong
October 2, 2009, 10:54 PM
Knock yourself out.

Me? Nah, too much good brass out there to fool with steel.

sonier
October 2, 2009, 11:51 PM
i have 300 steel cases of 7.62x39, but i cant deprime them they dont have a normal falshole. only two side holes, any advice? I WANT THESE PRIMERS LOL.
im in the process of resizing the bullets for .308 caliber use, some will feed my moisin nagant off course.

The Bushmaster
October 3, 2009, 12:35 AM
sonier...Re-read Walkalong's post...Yes you can purchase the equipment to deprime those 300(?) cases and with a lot of luck you may find the primers too. BUT what for??

atblis
October 3, 2009, 12:36 AM
Some are boxer primed apparently.

sonier
October 3, 2009, 12:49 AM
i bet i can get the tools easier than i can primers lol, i have no money like lots do here to buy 1k primers. so 300 primers is 300 more i can use

steve4102
October 3, 2009, 08:07 AM
Hey duce, There is a big difference between "can" be reloaded and "should" be reloaded,big difference.

Walkalong
October 3, 2009, 10:19 AM
So, if I read correctly sonier, you pulled the bullets to use in another caliber and have Berdan primed cases left over.

Those primers you want will only work in cases using Berdan primers of course.

Two problems. How to get them out, and then they won't work in cases designed for Boxer primers. If you bought or made a tool to deprime with, and you didn't damage them too much, and if you have some cases that need Berdan primers you want to reload........then sure, go for it.

You could use the water method to deprime, then let them sun dry thouroghly before priming those Berdan cases you have (7.62 X 54R?). They should still go bang.

Do you not shoot 7.62 X 39? Just salvaging components from ammo you don't have a use for?

jmorris
October 3, 2009, 10:30 AM
There are a lot of things in life that you can do that you shouldn’t.

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 11:13 AM
As I stated I knew some of the righteous would come out of the woodwork . Understand that steel casings have been used for more than a few years . ( see German and Russian WWII history ). And even then they where picked back up when possible and sent back to be reloaded because of steel and brass shortages during the war .

I know there are arguments for and against doing it . I was trying to avoid it with this posting but I should have known that some would not resist the invitation to a disagreement .

So I say .

For the ones that are willing to try it and learn something and the little difference in the reloading process need to do it ( move on you have learned more in the world of reloading ) .

To the ones who disagree I say . Stay in your little world of reloading and not be willing to learn new ways and add to the world of reloading .


On a side not . I know of the arguments about steel weakness that same say will cause failer . And have had a discussion with a few that know more about metallurgy than I but they have failed to show me one time this has happen due to reloading the steel casings .

So I invite you to show me one case in which reloading the steel casings have failed after being reloaded ?


I have to come back and add that with the cost of new brass going through the roof and availability of used brass slowly drying up and steel casings are going to be the new cost savings for the ammo companies to survive and be able to pass some of the saving onto you you will see much more steel casings from all the ammo companies in the future . If you just want to stay with brass then reloading will only be a rich mans hobby in the not so near future .

NCsmitty
October 3, 2009, 12:01 PM
Duce1, I don't think anyone is talking about steel cases failing after reloading.
The problem with steel cases is the lack of elasticity in the steel compared to brass, and the case provides the chamber seal to prevent blow by of the hot gases.
I'm not sure if you have fired any of your reloads yet, so it remains to be seen what the results may be. If the pressure is not right, the steel case will leak erosive gas.


NCsmitty

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 12:19 PM
NCsmitty, I have reloaded around 500 of these so far and fired them off, They do fine but I am not a hot loader and load 90% of the time in the middle range of powder charges. So they do fine for what I am doing. These are not loaded for dead eye accuracy they are more for plinking .

And for the steel there are many grades of steel these casings fall in lines with 1018 to 1020 grade steel that has a lot of the same property as brass does . They do have the elasticity to stretch and bend without cracking as brass does .

A second question for you ?

Are you a smith ?

I am a tool and die maker with 40 plus years now .

NCsmitty
October 3, 2009, 01:05 PM
I am a tool and die maker with 40 plus years now .

Duly noted, and pleased that you have had good luck loading steel cases.

I was a Machinist/Machine operator for 25+ years, retired, and have been reloading for 45+years.

I have a lathe, and I thread and fit barrels to my own actions. I guess that makes me an amateur gunsmith in my own mind.


NCsmitty

rcmodel
October 3, 2009, 01:16 PM
( see German and Russian WWII history )Be sure and look at U.S. military WWII history too.

We used zinc plated steel case .45 ACP as a stop-gap measure to conserve brass for more critical uses, like 30-06 cases!

It was found they caused gun malfunctions, hard extraction, and broke a lot of 1911 extractors.
As soon as feasible, the U.S. went back to brass cased .45 ACP ammo.

Your example of Russia & Germany using steel cases is correct.
But they, especially Russia, designed the guns for them.
Germany had major problems with steel case 9mm ammo breaking Luger extractors.

rc

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 01:19 PM
NCsmitty. I am retired as well . Got bored with it and started my own machine shop doing Government contract work making parts for a couple of there weapons .

I am not a licensed gunsmith as well but many people bring there weapons to me for small minor repair . No money to be made in it but fun to do .

I have not been reloading as long as you have but I am close to you in years doing it .

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 01:29 PM
rcmodel you are correct with the Americans but they found out during there discovery that the " Zink " plating was the problem . Zink is a very hard coating put on steel and was the mayor problem with the casings . And for the times America was the major supplier of copper reserves and found no need to invest more into steel casings when they had a vast supply of copper for the making of brass casings .

As for the Russians weapons being designed for the steel casings you are partly correct the standard " Mosin Nagant " was not designed for it but was such a robust weapon it could handle it with no problem .

As for me I am not a power hungry loader and hold in the middle for almost all my reloads so it works well for me .

I am not advocating reloading steel casings I am just saying and showing it can be done safely and with few if any problems .

I have no real need to reload 223 steel casings I have a good supply of 223 brass casings stored away . I just do it to a few here and there for the fun of it . No problem with adding to the stores when you have 2 sons in the military who like to come home on leave and shoot your supplies up when your not home !

Walkalong
October 3, 2009, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the insults Duce 1. We merely had comments, not insults. Did you start this thread merely to drum up an argument? See ya...........

depoloni
October 3, 2009, 01:40 PM
If you're "into" taking an unnecessary risk, go for it. Steel cases would've been used since day one if they were superior in ANY way, but they're not. They're usable "because you can" but everyone from ALL major ammo and/or component suppliers, and the manufacturers of the ammo itself, recommend totally against reloading these cases.

Now you've made the argument, although not a new one, that it can be done. Congrats, but you've proven nothing as to whether it should.

You've made the argument that folks who are against reloading steel should not do so, which is admirable. Let the go on "not adding" to the reloading field.

If you're really out to make something work "because it's possible" rather than whether it should be done, more power to you. Figure out how to swage bullets cheaply and simply, make our own primers, or powder, or just about anything and contribute there too. But don't get on a high saddle and expect that "the haters will come out of the woodwork" - what you're doing is patently against the recommendations of every component and ammo manufacturer whether it works or not.

Darwinism does exist, and it does have a firm hold on things. But it doesn't guarantee that everyone who is begging to lose a finger or worse will. Even casinos have winners. Bet on!

depoloni
October 3, 2009, 01:44 PM
Oh, my bad. I take everything back now having realized that I missed where the expert-at-hand is a machinist. What was I thinking, clearly his forum-stated expertise, even if valid (and I'm not calling anyone a liar) eliminates thousands of in-industry opinions. I didn't mean to pop in and cause a stir.

I've only been reloading for about 10 years, and I'm only 30. And I've been hilariously taking on advice from the industry, trusted older and more experienced loaders, and firearm/component manufacturers. All the trouble I could've saved if I'd just known to come trust 16-posters in a public, free forum on reloading.

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 01:45 PM
Insult ?

Was not trying to insult no one .

I thought we where having a decent conversation with different points to bring out ?

The only thing I was trying to avoid was a argument Walkalong ! If you take my words as a insult the I apologize to you . Was not meant to be a insult my words where to show a different point nothing more.

I know that some do like to argue over steel casings and I was trying to have a decent conversation and avoid it .

I am sure I failed now that you have spoken up .

rcmodel
October 3, 2009, 01:47 PM
This thread shows signs of getting ugly, or uglier.

Folks, why can't we just get along!

rc

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 01:50 PM
depoloni point taken and understood. Sorry to you that my posting count is so low and not worthy of a conversation to you .

Have a good day my friend .

ljnowell
October 3, 2009, 06:43 PM
I dont understand how a thread in RELOADING forum goes so horribly wrong. I mean, this is about reloading, something we all like.

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 09:30 PM
ljnowell I agree . I got a private message already telling me how I will be ignored by him in the future while posting on this forum ?

Some things people take to personally for now reason I guess ?

I live by the rule . " To each his own " and afford each his own space and do my best to not take everything said to me as a personal attack .

Now back to our love of reloading .

sonier
October 3, 2009, 09:58 PM
i got a good idea, ill change subject lol. What tools do i need to deprime these 7.62x39, i dont shoot that cartridge so i am salvaging all i can. Will most of the primers be damaged even with proper tools? You neve rknow when you might come across this again, thats why i liek to by the tools. id rather have a tool and not need it, than need a tool i dont have.

on the flaming part, its his gun its his life, some people swear up and down on certaing things while others dont. I ride a lot of horses, and i can tell you this no mans tack is allways the same, or same technique. instead of saying there is a problem and it wont work. try this, hey in my experience and teachings ive thought steel cases didnt have enough elasticity, is this true for you? if not how many reloads before you throw them out?
if ya aint got nothing good to say, then dont say anything.

thankyou on the help so far guys its been great :)

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2009, 10:07 PM
i got a good idea, ill change subject lol. What tools do i need to deprime these 7.62x39, i dont shoot that cartridge so i am salvaging all i can. Will most of the primers be damaged even with proper tools? You neve rknow when you might come across this again, thats why i liek to by the tools. id rather have a tool and not need it, than need a tool i dont have.


You are aware that the primers used in such ammo are a NON std size even amongst berdan primers? In other words the only thing you could possibly use em in is steel cased 7.62x39

BUT......are the primed steel cases in good condition?

If so someone like myself MIGHT be interested in as a one time use ready to load case......For the right price of course

Sport45
October 3, 2009, 10:24 PM
I don't see what the big deal is with reloading steel cases. As long as you work the load up carefully, that is. Someday everyone may be reloading steel and thinking nothing of it.

It wasn't that long ago that Winchester warned that their NT .45acp brass was not re-loadable. Nowadays many of us ignore the large flash hole or small primer pocket and reload these without a second thought.

sonier
October 3, 2009, 10:32 PM
I would be wrried about shipping cases with primers lol, hazmat fees and stuff dont sound to fun. i did no tknow that these primers arnt standar size, ill try to go ahead and load some primers in my steel nagant cases first, if not i may be lookin to get rid of them :)

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2009, 10:49 PM
I would be wrried about shipping cases with primers lol, hazmat fees and stuff dont sound to fun. i did no tknow that these primers arnt standar size, ill try to go ahead and load some primers in my steel nagant cases first, if not i may be lookin to get rid of them :)

AH but haz mat doesn't apply to primed brass! You can ship them orm-d just like loaded ammo

The primers in question are larger in diameter than STD primers. You "CAN" load steel 7.62x39 cases with punched out flashholes using STD large rifle primers BUT they must be glued in place to keep them from literally falling out.*

*the poster does not advocate this in any way

sonier
October 3, 2009, 10:51 PM
well then i may do that soon, i just ogt to get off my lazy but and pull the bullets lol, ill think bout selling them khrochus ;) ill definately talk to you before id post in on gunbroker or somin lol

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2009, 10:58 PM
I'm patient take your time and hit me up when you decide sumpin

Duce1
October 3, 2009, 11:09 PM
You guys got me thinking . I do not think I have ever seen commercial 7.62x39 steel cased ammo that was or is truly boxer primed and not berdan primed that will take standard size primers !

R.W.Dale
October 3, 2009, 11:50 PM
You guys got me thinking . I do not think I have ever seen commercial 7.62x39 steel cased ammo that was or is truly boxer primed and not berdan primed that will take standard size primers !

I haven't seen any, and trust me I look

Steve Marshall
October 4, 2009, 12:23 AM
Wow. No grief with making your own primers. But a guy comes on here, acknowledges that brass cases are better but still reloaded some steel cases as an experiment. Where's the harm?
Steel has a much higher coefficient of friction than brass so is more likely to stick in your chamber. Steel is stiffer than brass so is harder to rework. The big drawback would be if the case started rusting as that would be harder yet than steel. If I recall, some Eastern European countries even made rimfire rounds in steel. One poster warned of steel cases not obturating to fill the chamber and allowing blowby of the gases. Ever see a sooted up cartridge maybe with a large dent in brass? Of course you have. Not enough pressure. So the next time you increase the charge or the bullet weight and Eureka! And please overlook my low post count. I just joined recently.

ants
October 4, 2009, 12:51 AM
I have tried my share of 'experiments', although I don't often publish them publicly. When I do, I expect to be stepped on. It's part of life. Take it like a man.

In any case, I always thought that if steel cased ammunition can be made the first time, they can be reloaded the second time. You just gotta have the right equipment and loading data. You gotta understand what you're doing. And you probably gotta have the right level of boredom on just the right day.

Roccobro
October 4, 2009, 01:14 AM
Good stuff here!

Except for the ugliness of course. ;)

Lets keep up the civilized discussion please.

Justin

sonier
October 4, 2009, 01:31 AM
Yay this thread got back on post maybe a moderator or the flaming guys can delete there messages just so this thread dosnt get locked up. Cause id like to know how safe it is to do this, and im learning a lot of things.

Thankyou guys for gettin back on track :)

Maj Dad
October 4, 2009, 01:39 AM
I have several boxes of EC 43 GI steel cased WW2 45 acp, and have fired some over the years. I reloaded some to see if it could be done; it could be, and I fired it, and that was it. Steel corrodes more insidiously than brass, and the old steel can be ready to let go without visibly apparent corrosion, especially from deteriorating nitrate-containing gunpowder. It looks great in a WW2 display and I like it, but not to shoot. Newer steel may not have the corrosion issues that 60 y/o might, but it sure is a pain compared to brass, and it is hard on your reloading gear and weapon's small components (extractor/ejector) and scratches your chamber if not perfectly sized. Brass. It's the new steel... :rolleyes:

bullseye308
October 4, 2009, 02:08 AM
I'll throw this one out first. :) http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477367 That being said, just expect to start losing cases sooner than brass. Make sure they are kept dry and have no rust.

If you are loading these for a weapon that was expected to run steel(SKS AK etc) should be no problem at all. If these are for US rifles, worst case keep a broken shell remover thingy handy and a spare extractor. Load light to mid and everything will be peachy.

Sport45
October 4, 2009, 09:28 AM
well then i may do that soon, i just ogt to get off my lazy but and pull the bullets lol, ill think bout selling them

Why are you going to pull the bullets? You may as well jut sell the ammo. IIRC, 7.62x39 uses a .310" bullet and it isn't good for most 30 caliber applications.

Remo-99
October 4, 2009, 09:43 AM
IIRC, 7.62x39 uses a .310" bullet and it isn't good for most 30 caliber applications.

I think the chinese made 7.62x39 ammo I have has .311"
bullets, it is not only steel cased, but the bullets have copper washed steel jackets on them, those bullets are not something I'd like to be shooting through the barrel of a favorate 30cal rifle, whether sized to .308" or otherwise.
Quite OK for an SKS battle axe, though.

steve4102
October 4, 2009, 04:33 PM
Hey Duce, like I said earlier, just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should". I can take my wife's Mustang GT out, paint the streets black, drive through town 100+ miles an hour and not get hurt or hurt someone else. Still doesn't make it right and still doesn't make it safe, but it can be done. What you are doing is no different, maybe OK for a while, but soon or later it will come back and bite you in the ass. Just hope that bite isn't bad enough to remove any of your much needed body parts. If you want to load steel ,go ahead, I just think it's irresponsible to tell the world, especially new handloaders,it's OK cuz you "can" do it.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 04:55 PM
Hey Duce, like I said earlier, just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should". I can take my wife's Mustang GT out, paint the streets black, drive through town 100+ miles an hour and not get hurt or hurt someone else. Still doesn't make it right and still doesn't make it safe, but it can be done. What you are doing is no different, maybe OK for a while, but soon or later it will come back and bite you in the ass. Just hope that bite isn't bad enough to remove any of your much needed body parts. If you want to load steel ,go ahead, I just think it's irresponsible to tell the world, especially new handloaders,it's OK cuz you "can" do it.
Am I advocating doing it ? No

AM I showing it can be done ? Yes

And I am not narrowing my abilities to only reload in one process ?

I guess when the next guy jumps up with the idea of a new " wildcat round "we all need to point out the problems and all the reasons he may be harmed in his adventures ?

If we all have a narrow mind in reloading what new things can we expect to come out we might enjoy doing as reloaders if no one is willing to take on the challenge to do it ?

My thoughts on reloading are if we only keep to one way and have a fear of anything new our hobby will die . As we all know components to for our hobby are getting harder to find and that includes all things brass and the cost is through the roof for them.

I try to live by the rule " to each his own " and I will afford you the right to question me on this subject as you should afford me the right to do it without a hidden agenda to insult the ones that go out of the norm and try new things .

So the next time you put that extra grain of powder into a reload and the book says you have passed the limits remember you are doing the same thing you are questioning me on !

Roccobro
October 4, 2009, 05:37 PM
Well, since Steve4102 wants to just repeat himself without a single piece of helpful information. I shall too.

Good stuff here!

Except for the ugliness of course.

Lets keep up the civilized discussion please.

Justin

Justin

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 05:42 PM
And just think we could go thru all this over again in regards to alu. cases.

Or maybe those gray plastic cases with the brass base I've seen a few of. But they're only available in .223 to the best of my knowledge.

steve4102
October 4, 2009, 05:53 PM
I guess when the next guy jumps up with the idea of a new " wildcat round "we all need to point out the problems and all the reasons he may be harmed in his adventures ?

If we all have a narrow mind in reloading what new things can we expect to come out we might enjoy doing as reloaders if no one is willing to take on the challenge to do it ?

My thoughts on reloading are if we only keep to one way and have a fear of anything new our hobby will die . As we all know components to for our hobby are getting harder to find and that includes all things brass and the cost is through the roof for them.

I try to live by the rule " to each his own " and I will afford you the right to question me on this subject as you should afford me the right to do it without a hidden agenda to insult the ones that go out of the norm and try new things .

So the next time you put that extra grain of powder into a reload and the book says you have passed the limits remember you are doing the same thing you are questioning me on !

Hey Duce, You're not breaking any "New" ground here. You're not developing a new cartridge or sailing into uncharted waters. You're loading steel cases, it's been done, it's been tested, it's been argued for years and it's been deemed an unsafe/bad idea from just about every qualified source in the handloading world.
Like I said, if you want to load steel, go for it, it's your life and body parts. Personally, If I were running this forum and people like you posted threads advocating unsafe handloading practices, I would lock the thread and shut it down.

Comparing yourself to the Wildcatters of old cuz you are loading steel is laughable.

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE]Like I said, if you want to load steel, go for it, it's your life and body parts. Personally, If I were running this forum and people like you posted threads advocating unsafe handloading practices, I would lock the thread and shut it down.

[/QUOTE

Just a little question. Just where does it state definitely that it is absolutely and possitively unsafe to reload steel cases? If so post the links. Just wondering or is this just opinion?

R.W.Dale
October 4, 2009, 06:22 PM
it's been argued for years and it's been deemed an unsafe/bad idea from just about every qualified source in the handloading world

really? I must have missed that memo.

Here's an idea instead of just wasting electrons on your factless handwringing why don't you cite us some specific examples of the above claim.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 06:32 PM
Thanks guys , I was and still am going to ask the same question ?


Where is your proof ?

Show me and do not tell me how unsafe I am and I will be sure to follow your words after the proof is shown !

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 06:48 PM
And just think we could go thru all this over again in regards to alu. cases.

Or maybe those gray plastic cases with the brass base I've seen a few of. But they're only available in .223 to the best of my knowledge.
jcwit I am not 100% sure of it but I think those casings your talking about are either German our Australian blanks ?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 06:57 PM
The brass case acts as a seal against blow-by gases and pressures back around the case into the chamber and bolt area.

After firing your steel-case reloads, have you mic'd your chamber or looked at it through a microscope to ensure there is no erosion going on of which you are not aware?

I saw erosion from a failed primer where just a microscopic pinhole was created upon one firing. The amount of pressure blown back against that new bolt face was enough to create a divot in my .270 bolt face that basically ruined the bolt.

If there is said erosion occurring, just how much of this will be acceptable before the steel (or brass, for that matter) case finally FAILS to hold back 40,000+ PSI from blowing into your face -- either around the bolt, or finally sending the bolt back?

Have fun with playing with your high pressures.
Please do it alone, away from bystanders and away from everyone so if anything should happen and go awry, only you are the one who gets injured.

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:02 PM
The headstamp says---223 REM PCA 04

They have a groove on the inside of the neck so a bullet can only go so far down into the case. Friend of mine who was at the range claims they were shooting bullets, but I do not know that as first hand knowledge. So maybe they are/were blanks. This was 3/4 years ago, and my friend is 66 as am I. Have never tried to reload any, how ever I would think it would be possible. Just keeping the cases as an oddity.

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:06 PM
I saw erosion from a failed primer where just a microscopic pinhole was created upon one firing. The amount of pressure blown back against that new bolt face was enough to create a divot in my .270 bolt face that basically ruined the bolt.



I'd get the rifle mfg., involved in this as they must be usin pretty poor steel in their bolts.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 07:07 PM
The brass case acts as a seal against blow-by gases and pressures back around the case into the chamber and bolt area.

After firing your steel-case reloads, have you mic'd your chamber or looked at it through a microscope to ensure there is no erosion going on of which you are not aware?

I saw erosion from a failed primer where just a microscopic pinhole was created upon one firing. The amount of pressure blown back against that new bolt face was enough to create a divot in my .270 bolt face that basically ruined the bolt.

If there is said erosion occurring, just how much of this will be acceptable before the steel (or brass, for that matter) case finally FAILS to hold back 40,000+ PSI from blowing into your face -- either around the bolt, or finally sending the bolt back?

Have fun with playing with your high pressures.
Please do it alone, away from bystanders and away from everyone so if anything should happen and go awry, only you are the one who gets injured.
Hum! Now we are talking 270 ?

First off I must say I have never even seen any 270 caliber steel casings ?

Now we are talking a 223 or 5.56 caliber . Nothing to compare between the 2 " different " calibers .

I would still like to see pictures and more proof of this happening to you . Pictures of the bolt face and the round described and used to cause this problem .

Like I say I have never seen 270 in reloaded steel casings .

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 07:12 PM
It was a conventional BRASS case and there was a defective PRIMER that had a microscopic pinhole in it that ruined not only the bottom of the BRASS CASE, but burned a DIVOT into the steel of the BOLT FACE.

Sorry, I sold that gun over 20 years ago.

If you don't believe me, fine, I don't care.

David Wile
October 4, 2009, 07:17 PM
Hey folks,

I do not buy any ammo that has steel cases, Berdan primers, corrosive materials, or steel jacketed bullets.

Many years ago I tried to convert Berdan primed brass to accept Boxer primers. I had a couple of foreign calibers that were a bit difficult to get in Boxer primed ammo, so I thought about reloading the Berdan ammo. While you could buy Berdan primers at the time, they were very, very expensive, so the only way I was going to reload Berdan primed cases was if I could find a way to convert them to Boxer primers. I started trying to convert cases in a few different ways, and, after working on that project for several evenings, I finally gave it up for just not being worth the effort to me. I finally found some good buys on Boxer primed ammo for those guns, and I bought a whole lot of it.

I do not mention my efforts to convert Berdan to Boxer to tell anyone that it cannot be done or that it cannot be done safely. I only mention my efforts to relate that it was not worth the effort to me.

As far as reloading steel cases and the aluminum cases goes, again I would not bother to spend my time with either steel or aluminum cases. Firstly, all the steel cases I have ever seen are Berdan primed, and I have already said I was not willing to spend my time on Berdan primed cases. All the aluminum cases I have seen are in calibers where regular Boxer primed brass cases are readily available. For me, working with aluminum cases is a waste of my time when I have so many brass cases available.

Now, having said that I would not bother with steel and aluminum cases, I have no doubts that I could reload both of those cases and shoot them safely. In the case of the steel cases, you would either have to reprime with Berdan or go to the trouble of converting them to Boxer.

The aluminum cases I have seen were all Boxer primed I think, and they would be rather easy to reload. Would they be unsafe? I don't know why. If you can safely shoot an aluminum case once, why not twice? Or three times? I shoot brass cases until the necks split and then pitch them. I would guess steel and aluminum would not last as many reloadings as brass, but I see no reason why they could not be reloaded and shot safely if they are kept to at or lower than the original pressures intended for these cases.

Would I bother reloading steel or aluminum cases? No, it is not worth the effort to me. But it seems rather narrow minded to me for so many of us to simply say it cannot be done or it cannot be done safely. I would suspect that is more indicative of the writers' personal preferences rather than their personal experience or knowledge.

To those who wish to go forward with reloading steel or aluminum cases, I would suggest that you should have the knowledge and understanding of reloading and chamber pressures to do your experimenting in a safe manner.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 07:21 PM
Now it is better understood . Steel casings is the base of this conversation in this posting and I took you comments to be about steel casings !

I see and take you point made but I will not take your comments about ruining your bolt and using steel casings as no contribution to this debate .

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 07:24 PM
Hey folks,

I do not buy any ammo that has steel cases, Berdan primers, corrosive materials, or steel jacketed bullets.

Many years ago I tried to convert Berdan primed brass to accept Boxer primers. I had a couple of foreign calibers that were a bit difficult to get in Boxer primed ammo, so I thought about reloading the Berdan ammo. While you could buy Berdan primers at the time, they were very, very expensive, so the only way I was going to reload Berdan primed cases was if I could find a way to convert them to Boxer primers. I started trying to convert cases in a few different ways, and, after working on that project for several evenings, I finally gave it up for just not being worth the effort to me. I finally found some good buys on Boxer primed ammo for those guns, and I bought a whole lot of it.

I do not mention my efforts to convert Berdan to Boxer to tell anyone that it cannot be done or that it cannot be done safely. I only mention my efforts to relate that it was not worth the effort to me.

As far as reloading steel cases and the aluminum cases goes, again I would not bother to spend my time with either steel or aluminum cases. Firstly, all the steel cases I have ever seen are Berdan primed, and I have already said I was not willing to spend my time on Berdan primed cases. All the aluminum cases I have seen are in calibers where regular Boxer primed brass cases are readily available. For me, working with aluminum cases is a waste of my time when I have so many brass cases available.

Now, having said that I would not bother with steel and aluminum cases, I have no doubts that I could reload both of those cases and shoot them safely. In the case of the steel cases, you would either have to reprime with Berdan or go to the trouble of converting them to Boxer.

The aluminum cases I have seen were all Boxer primed I think, and they would be rather easy to reload. Would they be unsafe? I don't know why. If you can safely shoot an aluminum case once, why not twice? Or three times? I shoot brass cases until the necks split and then pitch them. I would guess steel and aluminum would not last as many reloadings as brass, but I see no reason why they could not be reloaded and shot safely if they are kept to at or lower than the original pressures intended for these cases.

Would I bother reloading steel or aluminum cases? No, it is not worth the effort to me. But it seems rather narrow minded to me for so many of us to simply say it cannot be done or it cannot be done safely. I would suspect that is more indicative of the writers' personal preferences rather than their personal experience or knowledge.

To those who wish to go forward with reloading steel or aluminum cases, I would suggest that you should have the knowledge and understanding of reloading and chamber pressures to do your experimenting in a safe manner.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile
Thank you . And your point is well made and taken as it is .
Kind of response I like to read .

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 07:24 PM
OK, look at what high pressure will do:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22burned%20bolt%20face%22&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIK&um=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&start=0

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:24 PM
If you don't believe me, fine, I don't care.

My, my, aren't we testy. Take a deep breath now.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 07:32 PM
Well, the guy/gal wants a notarized statement with twenty 8"x10" color Glossies with the Serial Number and date of Notarization. :rolleyes:

Deep Breath Now.

Much better, thank you!

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:32 PM
Now, having said that I would not bother with steel and aluminum cases, I have no doubts that I could reload both of those cases and shoot them safely. In the case of the steel cases, you would either have to reprime with Berdan or go to the trouble of converting them to Boxer.



In both cases, steel and alu. I'm talking about boxer primed cases, in other words what we would consider standard here in the U.S. with easily optained primers, "well they used to be easily optained".

I've found both at the outdoor range I frequent, the alu. is Blazer ammo. Steel is Wolf.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 07:39 PM
I see so many new steel cases on the ground, I could literally walk off the range when no one is there, and have over 1,000 empty steel cases, that is 1,000 MINIMUN of EACH CALIBER!

There may be a slight rusting of some cases, but I bet I could get 1,000 that would be reloadable, if I was comfortable doing that. But I'm not comfortable and I don't want to ruin a perfectly good Bushmaster, my hands my face, my eyes and the rest of me, experimenting. :eek:

SharpsDressedMan
October 4, 2009, 07:45 PM
Obviously can be done. Economically, not so much. Hard on dies, takes more time, primers (berdan) in short supply. Unless I was down to my last batch of brass/ammo, I would not bother with steel cases. Just so you can say that you did or do reload steel cases?

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:46 PM
There may be a slight rusting of some cases, but I bet I could get 1,000 that would be reloadable, if I was comfortable doing that. But I'm not comfortable and I don't want to ruin a perfectly good Bushmaster, my hands my face, my eys and the rest of me, experimenting

Then your solution is very simple, Do Not Experiment. Take everything as it already is, no progress.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 07:48 PM
I have enough ammo in case I should need some. I also reload a lot with a lot more ready to assemble.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 07:55 PM
I see so many new steel cases on the ground, I could literally walk off the range when no one is there, and have over 1,000 empty steel cases, that is 1,000 MINIMUN of EACH CALIBER!

There may be a slight rusting of some cases, but I bet I could get 1,000 that would be reloadable, if I was comfortable doing that. But I'm not comfortable and I don't want to ruin a perfectly good Bushmaster, my hands my face, my eyes and the rest of me, experimenting. :eek:
Understood and very much your right to do so .

And for your posting with the link for " DIVOT " burning on the bolt face it looks to me like it was done with all brass cased rounds ?

Look at the brass residue on the bolt faces gives away that it was done with brass casings .

Nothing said in the postings about steel casings doing it ?

Anything is possible with steel or brass but to link what was caused using one type of casing is not right to just blame steel casings as well and say that all steel casings will cause and do this when right in front of you is proof that brass does it as well ?

And to add I do use a primer sealant on these casings . Not to say that will prevent it from happening but it is a extra step I do to almost all my reloads .

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 07:57 PM
Obviously can be done. Economically, not so much. Hard on dies, takes more time, primers (berdan) in short supply. Unless I was down to my last batch of brass/ammo, I would not bother with steel cases. Just so you can say that you did or do reload steel cases?
Wolf brand ammo has boxer primed steel casings on the market. You can use standard primers to reload .

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 07:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have enough ammo in case I should need some. I also reload a lot with a lot more ready to assemble

So? As do I. Are we now in a bragging contest? I reload for over 25 different calibers. I cast all my own handgun bullets. My last inventory of 45 brass was in excess of 20,000 rounds.

Now then back to steel case reloading and its safety.

SharpsDressedMan
October 4, 2009, 08:01 PM
Obviously can be done. Economically, not so much. Hard on dies, takes more time, primers (Berdan) in short supply. Unless I was down to my last batch of brass/ammo, I would not bother with steel cases. Just so you can say that you did or do reload steel cases? It is nice to know that someone proved that you CAN, but it seems like a last resort when there are better materials available.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 08:04 PM
EXACTLY, SDM!

Hey, if you see a lot of nice ones at the range, they may not be bad to have on hand just in case all else fails and it is the end of the world, and you need to load just one more batch!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 08:06 PM
No, I am not bragging.
You stated "No progress"

I stated that I am still progessing without the steel cases.
That's all.
Back to the steel cases now.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 08:09 PM
Understood and very much your right to do so .

And for your posting with the link for " DIVOT " burning on the bolt face it looks to me like it was done with all brass cased rounds ?

Look at the brass residue on the bolt faces gives away that it was done with brass casings .

Nothing said in the postings about steel casings doing it ?

Anything is possible with steel or brass but to link what was caused using one type of casing is not right to just blame steel casings as well and say that all steel casings will cause and do this when right in front of you is proof that brass does it as well ?

And to add I do use a primer sealant on these casings . Not to say that will prevent it from happening but it is a extra step I do to almost all my reloads .
I was not saying that the same thing WOULD happen, I suggested it COULD happen.

There is a big difference between those two words.

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 08:10 PM
Progress is usually associated with experimenting, was what I was getting at.

This is only ment as levity. Don't forget SHUDA. As in shuda, woulda, coulda.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 08:14 PM
OK, thank you for clarifying your intent.

I appreciate that and now I completely understand from where you are coming!

Thank you. :)

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 08:19 PM
EXACTLY, SDM!

Hey, if you see a lot of nice ones at the range, they may not be bad to have on hand just in case all else fails and it is the end of the world, and you need to load just one more batch!
And you finally come around to what I have been saying and doing all alone .

Have the experience and knowledge to do it in case it was needed .

Notice I stated way earlier that I have plenty of brass casing in 223 to reload I just wanted to know and have first hand experience in doing it if needed !

When push comes to shove I can say I know how and can show you .

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 08:24 PM
OK, EXACTLY!

I'm sorry, that is the problem with these forums. Half the time we don't really know what the other person is talking about.

It's kind of one-dimensional as opposed to if we were sitting here chatting, that would have been all established at the beginning!

Now you have my wheels turning, next time I go to the range, spare .223 steel :uhoh: (I hope it has one primer hole)! :)

jcwit
October 4, 2009, 08:27 PM
With all I've popped in here about this, let me end for now with this.
Do I recommend reloading steel or alu. cases. No not really, theres plenty of brass available.
Is it possible. Yes

Now I shall bow out for awhile.

Still wonder what those plastic cases are tho.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 08:50 PM
With all I've popped in here about this, let me end for now with this.
Do I recommend reloading steel or alu. cases. No not really, theres plenty of brass available.
Is it possible. Yes

Now I shall bow out for awhile.

Still wonder what those plastic cases are tho.
Thank you for chiming in and helping me and others get my point out that I failed to do in the beginning I guess .

Now I will go back to reloading " BRASS " casings in 223 that I have been working on almost all day and stopping in and posting as I get it and other things in my reloading room done .

Now if I can find some " cheap " FMJ 223 to buy and finish these up ?

Next we go to 45 ACP and then back to 308`s .

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 09:01 PM
Thank you for chiming in and helping me and others get my point out that I failed to do in the beginning I guess .

Now I will go back to reloading " BRASS " casings in 223 that I have been working on almost all day and stopping in and posting as I get it and other things in my reloading room done .

Now if I can find some " cheap " FMJ 223 to buy and finish these up ?

Next we go to 45 ACP and then back to 308`s .
I hear ya!
Sometime we just may have to load steel cases at the rate the components are so scarce!

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 09:09 PM
Inspector I have no proof of anything I am about to say but !

I really think most ammo companies will soon turn to steel casings in there regular product line as a cost saver ? And hopefully they will pass on the savings to the customer ?

But brass casings will be a rare item if they do .

ants
October 4, 2009, 09:11 PM
Plastic cased practice ammo: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=476821




Duce, there is one detail regarding steel cases (at least in my mind). As we all know, metals tend to spring back slightly when formed in a die. All metals and alloys have their own unique spring-back characteristics. The resizing dies we use in reloading are made slightly undersized knowing that brass is the metal being formed, and it springs back in a predictable manner to meet standard dimensions for the cartridge. So our dies are specifically dimensioned for sizing brass. Since steel has a different spring-back characteristic, our dies may not do such a perfect job of sizing the case. I tried it myself and measured with inside and outside micrometers, and steel cases are slightly oversized after sizing. But they still work, just slightly oversize. If a reloader wanted to do thousands of steel cased reloads, he would probably get custom dies made for that metal.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 09:13 PM
Inspector I have no proof of anything I am about to say but !

I really think most ammo companies will soon turn to steel casings in there regular product line as a cost saver ? And hopefully they will pass on the savings to the customer ?

But brass casings will be a rare item if they do .
I hope you are not right, but the way things look, I'm AFRAID you are right, my friend.
I don't see this "shortage" of components going away soon I'm afraid.

I hope I'm all wrong and I hope it comes around like the way it was a year or two ago!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 09:14 PM
Plastic cased practice ammo: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=476821




Duce, there is one detail regarding steel cases (at least in my mind). As we all know, metals tend to spring back slightly when formed in a die. All metals and alloys have their own unique spring-back characteristics. The resizing dies we use in reloading are made slightly undersized knowing that brass is the metal being formed, and it springs back in a predictable manner to meet standard dimensions for the cartridge. So our dies are specifically dimensioned for sizing brass. Since steel has a different spring-back characteristic, our dies may not do such a perfect job of sizing the case. I tried it myself and measured with inside and outside micrometers, and steel cases are slightly oversized after sizing. But they still work, just slightly oversize. If a reloader wanted to do thousands of steel cased reloads, he would probably get custom dies made for that metal.
Excellent point, ants!

ants
October 4, 2009, 09:15 PM
For those concerned about obduration (expanding to seal the chamber), I have never seen spent steel cases burned or stained on the outside by hot gases due to insufficient sealing. On another web site (I'll see if I can find it for you) they checked the hardness of steel cases, and found that the steel alloy is very, very soft. Just like brass. So it seals the chamber as required.

I'll see if I can find that URL for you.

Duce1
October 4, 2009, 09:19 PM
Plastic cased practice ammo: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=476821




Duce, there is one detail regarding steel cases (at least in my mind). As we all know, metals tend to spring back slightly when formed in a die. All metals and alloys have their own unique spring-back characteristics. The resizing dies we use in reloading are made slightly undersized knowing that brass is the metal being formed, and it springs back in a predictable manner to meet standard dimensions for the cartridge. So our dies are specifically dimensioned for sizing brass. Since steel has a different spring-back characteristic, our dies may not do such a perfect job of sizing the case. I tried it myself and measured with inside and outside micrometers, and steel cases are slightly oversized after sizing. But they still work, just slightly oversize. If a reloader wanted to do thousands of steel cased reloads, he would probably get custom dies made for that metal.
I am sure you are correct in your measurements and I would agree . I have not intent to strictly reload steel casings so a investment in special dies would most likely be a waste for me .

This has been done for me to learn and understand what was all involved with working with steel casings .

I have probable done it to 500 casings over the past 8 or 9 months ( I real do not know how many I have done I am just guessing ) as a true measurement in my mind as to how piratical it would be to do if a " have to case " and it was all I had would work . And it has satisfied my mind that in all practicality I could do it for a good amount of time if I needed to depend on it to work .

sonier
October 4, 2009, 09:29 PM
on the size of my bullets im pulling they are .3105 im resizing them to .308. that has nothing to do about steel casing so dont bring it up again.

Back to steel casing the rumor flying around is lack of seal around the chamber and cartridge. we get it, and far as overpressure cause damages well it does. but duce isnt loading high pressures.
if your wrried about gas blowback use a bolt action rifle, i can see that maybe a semiauto would be more dangerous.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 4, 2009, 09:41 PM
For those concerned about obduration (expanding to seal the chamber), I have never seen spent steel cases burned or stained on the outside by hot gases due to insufficient sealing. On another web site (I'll see if I can find it for you) they checked the hardness of steel cases, and found that the steel alloy is very, very soft. Just like brass. So it seals the chamber as required.

I'll see if I can find that URL for you.
Another excellent point, no signs of gas blow-by within the chamber as signs on the outsides of the cases!

Good point!

bullseye308
October 4, 2009, 11:28 PM
I have loaded steel only in 223 and 45 so far. I have only loaded about 50 45's 4 times so far with no problems as of yet. Like I have said before, don't load hot and if you keep it in the middle, you should be fine if you decide to try it yourself. The 223 I loaded and tried lasted 4 loadings before problems started showing up. Now that I know it can be safely done at least 3 times(per my limited testing), I now only load them once and put them away for a rainy day.

Another thing not mentioned is that not all of us can afford to buy all that plentiful brass that some of you claim is all over the place. Some of us don't make it to a range to pick any up either. Where I shoot there is wolf all over along with .22 shells and that is it. I also have enough brass on hand for myself, but it won't last forever and unless I can be sure of getting more real cheap or free, I will look into whatever alternatives are around.

Look at it kinda like this: I have a friend that won't cast bullets because he is sure he will get lead poisoning and most likely burn the crap out of himself. He doesn't believe it is safe for him to do it. I believe him. He shouldn't be doing it if he doesn't think it is safe. Kinda like loading brass. Noone is telling anyone to load it and scrap your brass, just that it can be done within certain limits and you may at some time need to know this.

snuffy
October 5, 2009, 02:57 AM
Still wonder what those plastic cases are tho.

These?

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image1_10.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image2_11.jpg

PCA spectrum were made to reduce weight allowing a soldier to carry more ammo. The plastic was cast around the bullet, then the powder poured in then the primed brass base was snapped on. It was not supposed to be reloaded, but you COULD do it. The problem was bullet pull/grip, there was none! The neck would not size down. Besides it shot lousy, as far as good groups! I heard they made some .308 and were going to try magnum handgun as well. They went broke a couple of years ago.

Looks like the plastic would melt, right? Apparently not. Even after a mag of rapid fire to heat the barrel, then one left in for a minute. Some tough, high temp, plastic.

As far as the reloading steel goes, why not? As far as harming dies goes, dies are heat treated high carbon steel. Very hard. The steel cases are soft mild steel. Problem is it work hardens when being fired then reformed via sizing. Duce1 says he's only doing it once, then leaving it lay, no problemo I say. Might even give it a try myself, sounds interesting.

jcwit
October 5, 2009, 10:18 AM
Yup thats the stuff.

Duce1
October 5, 2009, 10:31 AM
WOW ! Did not know that stuff was once on the market !

I have seen military blank ammo out there that looks exactly the same but without the bullet . I kind of thought that was what he had seen !

Sport45
October 5, 2009, 10:43 AM
that has nothing to do about steel casing so dont bring it up again.


:confused: Why are you scolding us? You took this off topic when you interjected with your "recycling components from 7.62x39" topic.

i got a good idea, ill change subject lol. What tools do i need to deprime these 7.62x39, i dont shoot that cartridge so i am salvaging all i can. (emphasis added)

We were just pointing out that those primers and bullets can't easily be used in other cartridges. :)

As far as shooting steel case reloads in a bolt gun vs a semi, I'm not sure it would make much difference. My AR's and M1 have locking lugs and the bolt is just as secure as a bolt action. I've never seen the insides of an AK but assume it uses locking lugs too. None of them do a good job of sealing the chamber without the casing in place.

ants
October 5, 2009, 12:28 PM
Duce1, I think it's a good experiment. And a good thing to store in the back of the head, just in case it is necessary some day.

Using steel cases isn't a casual thing to do, one must be aware of the materials and adjust procedure accordingly. For instance, it would be wise to measure interior case volume compared to brass, and make powder adjustments as necessary. Same with primer pocket and neck tension. Since common knowledge and loading data for these adjustments are not published, one must be very very careful.

Many reloaders (especially the inexperienced) may not have the knowledge or skill or experience to do that, and that is where the danger enters the picture. Clearly steel works as a case material, so the shortcoming is in the reloader rather than the material.

Those who assert that most steel cases can be reloaded safely are telling the truth.

And those who assert that reloading steel cases is potentially dangerous for most reloaders are also telling the truth.

Duce1
October 5, 2009, 01:06 PM
Duce1, I think it's a good experiment. And a good thing to store in the back of the head, just in case it is necessary some day.

Using steel cases isn't a casual thing to do, one must be aware of the materials and adjust procedure accordingly. For instance, it would be wise to measure interior case volume compared to brass, and make powder adjustments as necessary. Same with primer pocket and neck tension. Since common knowledge and loading data for these adjustments are not published, one must be very very careful.

Many reloaders (especially the inexperienced) may not have the knowledge or skill or experience to do that, and that is where the danger enters the picture. Clearly steel works as a case material, so the shortcoming is in the reloader rather than the material.

Those who assert that most steel cases can be reloaded safely are telling the truth.

And those who assert that reloading steel cases is potentially dangerous for most reloaders are also telling the truth.
I could not agree more .

I have followed your words and checked out what I was doing ahead of time .

Volume , primer pockets sizes ( I am a tool and die person and have access to the tools to do as needed ) . I even have checked a few in electrolight checking for cracks .

I do not take reloading lightly and think I have a good handle when to stop before I or someone else gets hurt .

I personally have done it to just know and keep in mind it can be done and if needed I can do it .

I prefer brass casings and stay with them but I can if needed do it with steel was all I have been checking into .

Johnny Guest
October 6, 2009, 11:40 AM
It is fitting that the original poster wrote the last entry on the thread.

l'm a bit miffed that there's been so much acrimony in this thread. The OP started out with a generally informative premise and went to share his findings with the rest of us. Perhaps he was a bit too anticipatory that he would be attacked, but, as it turns out, he was entirely correct!

It is quite easy to observe that reloading steel cases is really not worthwhile, at a time when there is an abundance of good, cheap, brass empties available. It is also a good thing to point out the possible hazards of reloading steel unless certain precautions are taken. It is NOT a good thing to mock or attack those who choose to experiment with utilizing non-standard components. If you don't want to try something different, fine. Just don't undertake an attack on those who seek alternative methods. It has been proven repeatedly that it IS possible to safely reload steel cases, provided certain precautions are observed. The [CURRENT] practicality may be called into question, but it is well to recall that there MAY come a time when brass is not so readily available.

I thought of deleting all those posts that gratutiously attacked the mere concept mentioned in this thread. I have chosen to leave them in place, as an object lesson on how SILLY such blithering appears a few days or weeks later. Please remember - - If you have something to contribute to a discussion -- Something ON TOPIC -- go for it. If you just want to nit pick, insert some thread veer, or attempt to antagonize those engaged in discussion, --- Well, we're all better off without wending our way through your unintelligent space-wasting.

For those who did post contributory material, who asked on-point questions, and who put forth considerations not previously mentioned, THANK YOU. It is such give-and-take that makes a technical forum truly worthwhile.

If there's additional, CONTRIBUTORY, discussion to be had on this topic, someone can strart a new thread. For now, though, this one is - -

CLOSED.

Johnny Guest
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