Navy Seals .357 Magnum


PDA






Texasred
October 4, 2009, 09:24 AM
I understand that certain Special Forces are allowed to carry Smith double action .357 magnums. Is this still currently used? I remember seeing this on their website 2 years ago when I considered joining. What gun and what load do they use(only FMJ, RIGHT?)? Anyone know?

If you enjoyed reading about "Navy Seals .357 Magnum" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JShirley
October 4, 2009, 09:28 AM
Which website?

earlthegoat2
October 4, 2009, 09:29 AM
navyseals.com I would think.

It was different 2 yrs ago than it is now though.

Texasred
October 4, 2009, 10:00 AM
This was on the official USNAVY website. No bs.

KBintheSLC
October 4, 2009, 01:30 PM
I always thought that Seals carried Sig 226's. Never heard of them carrying a revolver in recent decades.

MCgunner
October 4, 2009, 02:05 PM
Maybe they use it to penetrate engine blocks. :scrutiny:

Wishoot
October 4, 2009, 02:12 PM
Maybe they use it to penetrate engine blocks. :scrutiny:
Or kill Grizzly Bears...

9mmepiphany
October 4, 2009, 02:49 PM
Marcinko wrote, in 1992, that when he formed SEAL Team 6, they used the S&W M-66 with 4" barrel

DougDubya
October 4, 2009, 06:06 PM
I always thought that Seals carried Sig 226's. Never heard of them carrying a revolver in recent decades.
Through the late 70's and 80's, the SEALs used a Model 66 alongside the Beretta and later the P226.

dfariswheel
October 4, 2009, 07:38 PM
The SEALs still issue S&W Model 686 revolvers for some conditions.

They've used just about every revolver made, from the Colt Detective Special and Cobra, to the S&W Model 66 and now the 686.

Sometimes, especially in very dirty water like you find in harbors, a revolver is more reliable than an auto. Even fouled in silt and with all the lube washed off by salt water they still work.

Kernel
October 5, 2009, 01:05 AM
About 10 years ago there was a documentary on TV showing the French Seals. At that time they carried a stainless revolver. Anyway, I don't think it's possible to walk up and "join" the SEALs. You apply for the training. IF you're accepted, and IF you survive it, they MIGHT take you, provided you meet all the psychological profiles. Maybe one in ten or twenty makes the cut. Unless things have changed.

Texasred
October 5, 2009, 08:18 AM
Yeah, I just filled out the application on line! They turned me down because they said my high scores would make the other SEALs jealous!

Revolver Ocelot
October 5, 2009, 11:04 AM
Yeah, I just filled out the application on line! They turned me down because they said my high scores would make the other SEALs jealous!

I was under the impression that high scores were mandatory to get into the seals aside from the obvious pt requirements.

highorder
October 5, 2009, 11:21 AM
Enlist.
Accept an MOS that qualifies as a SEAL source rating.
Apply to BUD/S
Survive/thrive in BUD/S.

...or just buy a 686 and a pair of Maui Jims and hit the range.:cool::rolleyes:

MCgunner
October 5, 2009, 11:37 AM
About 10 years ago there was a documentary on TV showing the French Seals. At that time they carried a stainless revolver

Wondering, are they issued a white flag, too? :D

bflobill_69
October 5, 2009, 05:01 PM
I thought the seals used to carry H&K...

Bflobill69

kdstrick
October 5, 2009, 05:23 PM
About 10 years ago there was a documentary on TV showing the French Seals.

Wondering, are they issued a white flag, too?

Not until after they complete the rigorous "surrender 101" course, followed shortly thereafter by the "collaborate 201" course. ;)

DougDubya
October 5, 2009, 05:38 PM
I thought the seals used to carry H&K...

Bflobill69
General opinion is that the Mk 24 Mod 0 (P226 to us on land) is much better to carry and use than the big HK .45 designed by committee.

R.W.Dale
October 5, 2009, 06:00 PM
Not until after they complete the rigorous "surrender 101" course, followed shortly thereafter by the "collaborate 201" course. ;)

Let me think

Korea- draw
Vietnam- Loss
Gulf war- Win with French and UK help
Iraq-?????
Afghanistan- We'll end up packing out within the year


How is it we can make fun of the French without laughing at ourselves:banghead: I assure you if Germany and Mexico swapped places in 1938 that folks in Alberta Canada would have been brushing up on their Deutsch long before 1940. Especially if over half our fighting age population had been killed off 20yrs previously

stolivar
October 5, 2009, 06:13 PM
We won every major battle with the VC. We had them begging to sign the peace treaty after bombing the living hell out of north VN.


We did not lose VN the american press lost VN.

The same way they are going to lose Iraq and Afghanistan. (The American Press)
:banghead:
Oh yeah, the stinking liberals had a big hand in it also.:fire:

steve

R.W.Dale
October 5, 2009, 06:17 PM
How can you say we lost in VN

What was our mission?

Keep South Vietnam a Democracy and prevent Communist expansion.

What form of government does south Vietnam have today?...........I call that a loss. Either way don't you think we have no room to talk about France?

France will fight till defeated on the field of battle. WE will fight till we lose interest and go home.

Eightball
October 5, 2009, 06:18 PM
For those curious about French Military Defeats, go here:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

Otherwise, can we please not completely derail the thread? I, for one, am quite curious about the topic.

stolivar
October 5, 2009, 06:21 PM
We had very few and I mean few if any military personnel there when the NVC took over. We had already pulled out and it was in the hands of the SVN army when the NVC took over. We had already had our troops pulled out over one year to 1 1/2 years earlier. I was there when they were pulling the troops out in 73


steve

By all means lets get back to the topic.....

Maj Dad
October 5, 2009, 06:40 PM
The reason NVN went to the talks in Paris was because LB II was, in fact, bombing them back to the stone age. We were losing aircraft (B-52s) but we were smashing their facilities to rubble, and that's when they said "King's X!" Mao and Ho and Gen Giap were masters at unconventional war, and they knew they had to stop the bombing lest they lose, so they talked while we stopped.

But we digress...

In my time, Spec Ops used whatever weapon was needed for the mission - some were basic issue, some were acquired for that particular operation. We had AKs in the armory in the early 70s along side a lot of other OTWS... :scrutiny:

Cosmoline
October 5, 2009, 06:47 PM
The total number of actual active-duty SEALS is tiny--a few thousand. You might as well try to get into the NBA with bad hips.

Texasred
October 5, 2009, 07:52 PM
Okay, obviously nobody can pick up on my sarcasm. I was looking into the navy, and the SEALs has a neat little webpage that is free to the public. But the second question still stands.

Can't they only use FMJ ammunition?

What good is FMJ ammo in a .357? or any handgun?

kdstrick
October 5, 2009, 07:55 PM
Back to the OP... I found this on the web which does confirm that SEALS use the 357 mag.

http://www.navysealmuseum.com/heritage/armory/hkp9s.php

It says... Smith & Wesson .357 Handgun

Revolver/pocket artillery. Although no longer a military issue item the S&W 357 is still used by the Special Forces when that immediate stopping power is required. This heavy revolver is guaranteed to fall any assailant with a hit to any part of the body (ouch!). SEAL operators like this weapon for it's stainless construction, which prevents rusting if submerged (a common occurrence in the Teams!)

Of course, I'm not in total agreement that it is "...guaranteed to fall any assailant with a hit to any part of the body (ouch!)" LOL! Does that include finger-shots...:confused:...

msiley
October 5, 2009, 07:58 PM
In the book "Warrior Soul" by ex-Navy Seal Chuck Pfarrer he said one of his
crew used a .44 Magnum Ruger Black Hawk.

dfariswheel
October 5, 2009, 08:49 PM
The most current (and best look) book at just what it takes to be a modern SEAL is former SEAL commander Dick Couch's book, "The Finishing School"

This is a non-classified look at just what it does take today to get from a SEAL volunteer to a "deployable SEAL".
It takes about 36 months and after reading it, you'll seriously wonder just how ANY mortal human can do all that.

There is some surprising information about just how far they shoot the M4 carbine, and that there are "break points" where you have to do something simple sounding or get washed out.
I found it almost shocking that they wash out people just weeks from finishing training if they fail a single run with gear that they've done many times before.
The information on the not-expected type of hand-to-hand combat is very surprising and the amount of ammo expended is amazing.

Finish all that super-human training and get sent to a Team....and you're STILL not a SEAL until they polish you.

One of the better reads on the modern SEAL.

http://www.amazon.com/Finishing-School-Earning-Navy-Trident/dp/0609810464/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254789720&sr=1-3

45XDC
October 5, 2009, 09:36 PM
Having been deployed with the Teams several times ( NOPE, I'M Not A SEAL!) I can honestly attest to only actually seeing one of them carrying a revolver in my more than 24 yrs of active duty. It was in 1991 and the operator was an old Pot Bellied Master Chief.... I was at an overseas small arms range shooting with them when he whipped it out. I was a young sailor at that time but I can still remember the conversation we had regarding that stainless 357. He looked me in the eye and replied after I inquired about how he liked it- I don't know, I haven't killed anyone with this one yet- an obvious indication at the time that he was an experienced operator. Long story short; yes they did carry 357's or at least one SEAL operator did. As best I recall his appearance was a little out of standards but I would not have thought of messing with that old bastard.

Monster Zero
October 5, 2009, 09:56 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but what about the not expected hand to hand combat? What do they do?

Just curious...

45XDC
October 5, 2009, 10:14 PM
The mission drives the gear carried. Their senior leadership picks the right tools for the job. They do not use a screw driver to hammer nails, if you know what I mean. Some situations call for a big bang, while others call for suppressed weapons. All are trained in hand to hand tactics and a wide variety of not so nosey ways to "F" someone up.

Texasred
October 6, 2009, 06:05 AM
I didn't ask about SEALs training (no offense!). I was just asking about the gun and ammunition. What kind of ammunition do they carry.

dfariswheel
October 6, 2009, 07:58 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but what about the not expected hand to hand combat? What do they do?


Its been a while since I read the book, but they do get actual hand-to-hand which as I recall is a SEAL blend of a Korean art.

However, the real training is done at a private training school that teaches a blend of weapons and physical that's intended to train the SEAL on how to DOMINATE a situation, whatever it is.

I can't remember the name of the school owner, but he teaches a method that allows a SEAL to dominate a situation, not just thump on someone.
This is an escalating system that teaches response depending on the situation.
As example, the situation might start off with putting someone down on the ground, and if they don't stop resisting, it might be followed with a bullet.
The training is intended to allow a SEAL to simply intimidate people as the situation requires in a sort of "Alfa-male" manner that causes people to NOT resist or not be able to resist effectively.

One part of the course is having the trainee standing in a room with a hood over his face.
When the hood is jerked off, he's faced with a situation involving anything from 1 to 3 or more people.
He has to access the situation and deal with it appropriately, whether its saying "Good Morning" to them to "dealing with them" physically.
Trainees come out of the course rather badly bruised.

Answering the perennial question on "who'd win in a barroom fight, the SEAL or ???", probably the SEAL, because he'd respond with whatever his training indicated was the right response from walking away to killing.

However, the SEALs don't spend that much time on hand-to-hand training because they believe that shooting people is better than engaging in a physical brawl.
Individual SEALs do often go out for some martial arts training.

dfariswheel
October 6, 2009, 08:10 PM
I didn't ask about SEALs training (no offense!). I was just asking about the gun and ammunition. What kind of ammunition do they carry.

Depends on the situation.
Ammo can vary from straight military issue full metal jacket to modern hollow point defense ammo, to God knows what secret specialty ammo.
Usually, the ammo is in the same calibers the regular military use: 9mm, .45ACP, 5.56, .7.62, etc.

For special situations, they can and do use just about any caliber you can name. They are known to use .357, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, .50 M2, and reportedly are experimenting with a 20mm ultra-long range weapon.

Since SEALs often deal with terrorists, the normal Hague Convention rules on non-expanding ammo don't apply when dealing with them. For normal situations special ops use the same ammo that regular military units use.
When dealing with terrorist, all bets are off.

So, what gun and ammo: That depends on the circumstances. The SEALs and other special ops units are allowed to use whatever they think they need in any given situation, depending on who the targets are.
The guns and ammo have and do vary widely from time to time and from situation to situation.

It appears that the "standard" SEAL guns are the SIG 9mm pistol and the Colt M4 Carbine.

L-Frame
October 6, 2009, 08:22 PM
The ammo use is amazing. Delta Force only has around 400 guys total and their monthly ammo use is in the millions.

HorseSoldier
October 6, 2009, 08:24 PM
I can't remember the name of the school owner, but he teaches a method that allows a SEAL to dominate a situation, not just thump on someone.

I believe you're talking about Duane Dieter? He's been tied in pretty tight with the SEAL community, training-wise, for a long time.

I've heard guys much better than me at combatives sort of stuff say his stuff is good, and equally qualified guys say his stuff is bad, but I suspect that shy of Olympic level hand to hand grudge matches, it's all angels dancing on the head of a pin sort of debate.

I do think the hood and react drill sounds like an absolute meat grinder (mentally and physically).

HorseSoldier
October 6, 2009, 08:32 PM
What good is FMJ ammo in a .357? or any handgun?

As has already been said, for certain mission sets certain SOF units (but not all SOF units, including not all SEAL/NSW units) may have latitude on ammunition selection.

Also, FMJ from a 357 Magnum certainly isn't going to put a spring in anybody's step and make them feel better about the world . . .

MCgunner
October 6, 2009, 08:41 PM
You might as well try to get into the NBA with bad hips.

Probably could if you could shoot 30 for 30 every night from mid court or in, never miss a shot. :D

R.W.Dale
October 6, 2009, 10:03 PM
Also, FMJ from a 357 Magnum certainly isn't going to put a spring in anybody's step and make them feel better about the world . .

Now that's quotable!

PA Freedom
October 6, 2009, 10:12 PM
FWIW, I think it's great that the double action wheelgun is still seeing at least SOME action!:)

DougDubya
October 7, 2009, 01:46 AM
However, the SEALs don't spend that much time on hand-to-hand training because they believe that shooting people is better than engaging in a physical brawl.
Individual SEALs do often go out for some martial arts training.

Reminds me of a great bit of SEAL back history: Chief James "Patches" Watson had been asked to design a "combat" knife, but his experience with knives in the field was for opening crates and sealed supplies. When it came time to fight people, he just shot them.

earlthegoat2
October 7, 2009, 04:50 AM
Is the SEAL Blitz what you are talking about? Read about it in Defensive Living by Ed Lovette and Dave Sapulding.

Yeah, dominating a situation. I dont think they use this exact technique anymore though but it pioneered the whole "be a master at hand to hand combat without years of martial arts training" thing.

JShirley
October 7, 2009, 02:42 PM
Special Forces

Special Forces are Army -------------------------->.<------------------(This is a period). You would think an authoritative site (http://www.soc.mil/SF/units.htm)would know better.

Dogbite
October 7, 2009, 05:51 PM
Yeah, you ever watch Buds training...Ugly.

rhoggman
October 7, 2009, 07:50 PM
Same with Army Special Forces.... They have about every weapon you can think of available for use in the arms rooms. Does not mean they all get used extensively. This day in age I doubt there is much use for a revolver; however that does not mean one would not be useful in certain situations.

One more comment... I know SEALs work hard to get where they are. I would never take away from that. But your chances are much better at becoming a SEAL than getting into he NBA. I would also like to mention there are harder programs to get into. Often I think people watch a little too much TV. Is it difficult? Without question, yes! Do you have to be on par with Bruce Willis.... no. No one is. Jack Bauer is a figment of your imagination.

A comment about wars.... Do you think the politicians and contracting firms want to win wars? I spent 1.5 years in Iraq. It might not be an everlasting empire, but when the fences come down and the money stops pouring in an empire will fall. I believe if the majority of the American public knew how the war was being "fought", they would soon think it was all a sham. Politicians and the State Department are ensuring there is no victory. Modern politics combined with modern ROE are carefully crafted rules that prolong the process. The enemies are protected, some to a greater degree than you could ever imagine. It is ridiculous. JMHO

Sheldon
October 8, 2009, 10:08 PM
Thought I read somewhere they used the S&W 681, which is the fixed sight version of the S&W 686.

Kernel
October 8, 2009, 11:39 PM
Politicians and the State Department are ensuring there is no victory.
Great. Vietnam all over again. :barf:

texagun
October 9, 2009, 09:36 AM
deleted

Sullyman
October 9, 2009, 04:53 PM
Sorry to be off topic.
A friend of mine was a Seal. I knew him for 10 years before I found out. His wife told me and she did not know for several years after they were married.

He doesn't talk much about it. A few comments about being in a country near the Carribean and other places he can't discuss. He lost some teammates. He said he was "young, dumb and full of C%&). He did say he has never been so cold in his life as he was during BUDs. When the topic of Seals comes up you can see him stare into space, replaying something in his mind.

Anyway I digress, when I see next him I'll ask what he carried.

Cosmoline
October 9, 2009, 06:11 PM
Often I think people watch a little too much TV.

Agreed. I suspect a lot of fans of these units would be bored and disappointed to see what they actually do. A successful mission may be one where they confirm something, communicate that fact, and leave. Or go talk to someone and get him to agree to do a certain something. They're absolutely not one man armies nor are they bullet proof. It's only the monumental screw-ups we hear about when they end up getting shot up.

DougDubya
October 9, 2009, 07:22 PM
Agreed. I suspect a lot of fans of these units would be bored and disappointed to see what they actually do. A successful mission may be one where they confirm something, communicate that fact, and leave. Or go talk to someone and get him to agree to do a certain something. They're absolutely not one man armies nor are they bullet proof. It's only the monumental screw-ups we hear about when they end up getting shot up.
I thought we were talking about the revolvers utilized by the Teams, not their super-ninja magical powers.

jmr40
October 10, 2009, 09:14 AM
I have no proof, but strongly suspect the real advantage of using a revolver is so there will be no empty cases left behind.

MM60
October 10, 2009, 10:16 AM
The SEALs use the S&W 686 4" revolver and always FMJ bullets. The advantages I understood it to have over the other handguns was that it would not get jammed up when full of sand or silt (particularly when used in saltwater and around beach areas), and if water enters any of the cartridges - causing a FTF, you can simply pull the trigger again - rather than try to rack a slide that may be jammed with debris.

Originally posted by HorseSoldier

I believe you're talking about Duane Dieter? He's been tied in pretty tight with the SEAL community, training-wise, for a long time.

I've heard guys much better than me at combatives sort of stuff say his stuff is good, and equally qualified guys say his stuff is bad, but I suspect that shy of Olympic level hand to hand grudge matches, it's all angels dancing on the head of a pin sort of debate.

I do think the hood and react drill sounds like an absolute meat grinder (mentally and physically).

Duane Dieter's CQD course provides very practical defensive training, as well as effective methods for subduing and restraining enemy combatants. It does not provide any form of impressive or aesthetically pleasing martial arts. As one of the trainees in my class stated, "If you try that in a bar fight, you're not gonna scare anybody. They're gonna say "Look - he's a queer! Get him!."" I am not aware of any Navy-provided martial arts training for SEALs, you would have to do that on your own time.

Originally posted by Cosmoline
Agreed. I suspect a lot of fans of these units would be bored and disappointed to see what they actually do. A successful mission may be one where they confirm something, communicate that fact, and leave. Or go talk to someone and get him to agree to do a certain something. They're absolutely not one man armies nor are they bullet proof. It's only the monumental screw-ups we hear about when they end up getting shot up.
This is correct. Training (BUD/S, Airborne, SQT, etc) prior to reaching a final duty station is excellent and very exciting. Upon reaching a final duty station, however, everything changes. From that point forward, the job consists primarily of administrative/office work, technical training such as HazMat school and airplane loadmaster school, taking inventory, making powerpoint presentations, etc. Most SEALs who deploy see little action and spend most of their time hanging around on base - working out or looking for something to do. Young guys in the SEAL community tend to be very disappointed with the teams, and all the young SEALs I know left the Navy after their first enlistment.

Originally posted by rhoggman
A comment about wars.... Do you think the politicians and contracting firms want to win wars? I spent 1.5 years in Iraq. It might not be an everlasting empire, but when the fences come down and the money stops pouring in an empire will fall. I believe if the majority of the American public knew how the war was being "fought", they would soon think it was all a sham. Politicians and the State Department are ensuring there is no victory. Modern politics combined with modern ROE are carefully crafted rules that prolong the process. The enemies are protected, some to a greater degree than you could ever imagine. It is ridiculous. JMHO

Exactly, rhoggman. Great post! I hope everybody here will watch the following videos:

The Complete Idiots Guide to the New World Order
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLPG_HplrA

The Obama Deception
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

The Final Push for World Government
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1bjnkOqT8k

devildog66
October 10, 2009, 09:20 PM
There has been a few stories about the .357 serving in Iraq as it gave a unique capability in that its range went beyond other semi-auto pistol cartridges but is compact enough to be easily carried. Oh, and it dropped the baddies, who were higher than snot on amphetamines on many occasions, really quickly.

Geneseo1911
October 10, 2009, 09:42 PM
wait.....I thought they used Extreme Shock?
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6968/extremeshokreduxxf4.jpg

DougDubya
October 10, 2009, 10:08 PM
wait.....I thought they used Extreme Shock?
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6968/extremeshokreduxxf4.jpg
Nah. SEALs are so badbutt that they just point their fingers and say "bang" to kill their opponents. We lesser mortals can't comprehend that level of awesome, so our minds automatically insert powerful rifles and handguns into their empty hands.

mljdeckard
October 10, 2009, 10:15 PM
And they are like The Zohan. Shoot them if you want. They snatch the bullets and throw them away.

DougDubya
October 11, 2009, 03:35 AM
And they are like The Zohan. Shoot them if you want. They snatch the bullets and throw them away.
Zohan ref for the win.

If you enjoyed reading about "Navy Seals .357 Magnum" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!