[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Yesterday a doe came in with two fawns, and I tried to shoot the fawn, but my arrow missed cleanly. :mad: at myself for that. But better than a wounding, that's for sure.

Anyhow, I'm having an argument with a friend.

I say, shoot the fawn because:
1. The mama doe can help the fawns survive a coyote attack,
2. The mama doe can still help them with other survival skills - finding good food to fatten up for the winter, perhaps keep them clear of roadways (??), etc., so it's *arguably* cruel to shoot the doe, and
3. The mama doe is a proven breeder (especially if she has two fawns), whereas one of the fawns may not be able to breed when they come of age, so you're trading a bird in the hand for one in the bush.

My buddy says no, you shoot the doe because:
1. You remove a doe, which is good when the ratio is out of whack (as it is here), and
2. One or both of those fawns may be button bucks, so you don't want to remove a young buck, but let him grow - again, for ratio/management, and
3. You get more meat obviously, from the doe.

I guess it comes down to how many coyotes and other predators you have, what the total population is like, and what your ratio is like. If you want to reduce the population and/or improve the number of bucks to does, then the 2nd school of thought would apply; whereas if you are trying to increase your population, and/or have a good buck to doe ratio already, then the 1st school of thought should be followed....comments?

I have no doubt that those fawns will *probably* survive to maturity without their mama, but how likely exactly? I guess it also depends upon how harsh your winters are.

P.S. If this was gun or ML, I wouldn't shoot either, but during archery, I take every chance I can get (which are few and far between).

[ashtxsniper]

Depending on the age of the fawns I would say dont shoot any of them. If they are pretty much grown then your whichever floats your boat.

[ArmedBear]

****, how hungry are you, that you can't just walk away from a doe with two fawns?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Very! :) But I'll chalk your vote down as "Neither". :p

P.S. It's raining today or I'd be out there right now. :(

[Bwana John]

I say it is not ethical to shoot at does with fawns. It might not be legal either in some states.

[ArmedBear]

Wait, you need the meat badly enough to worry about whether to shoot a fawn or a doe with fawns, but don't want to get wet?:D

[jimmyraythomason]

If the fawns are out of their spots (thereby making them legal)they are self sufficient and not dependent on mama. I would have let them all pass but if I WERE to take any,it would be the larger of the fawns.

[kdstrick]

I had this discussion with a Game Warden once. He claimed it was best to take the full grown doe. His reasoning was that the doe:

-is only of breeding age until around age 6 (and after that are basically worthless from a management standpoint) as they can live years beyond breeding age.

-In western and southeastern wildlife management units... the number of impregnated fawns approached only 50 percent. Close to 100% of grown doe capable of becoming pregnant will be impregnated. In Texas our biggest problem is overpopulation which leads to an unhealthy herd and smaller deer.

-you can only shoot 'X' number of deer in a season. Maximize it.

-full sized doe eat more food than the younger, smaller deer, leaving less for your bucks.

-and from my personal viewpoint, big old doe are smart... very smart and I'd rather have dumb ones that will hang out in a field for a while, encouraging that buck to step out and give me a shot. ;) :D

-and i like big tender backstraps better than skinny tender backstraps. :)

Oh... and by the way... fawns are completely self-sufficient by the time they are out of their spots. They will follow mama for a while, because mama knows where all the corn feeders and fields are. Mama also knows what hunters look and smell like. I'd just assume the younguns not be taught that last part. ;) And those of you who thinks that is cruel may not have spent as much time in nature as others of us... nothing is as cruel as mother nature.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Very nice and well-thought-out, kd - thank you. That's what I'm going to do next time! Great points.

However, this:

-you can only shoot 'X' number of deer in a season. Maximize it.

Doesn't apply to me personally, since we can get six with a bow, and I only want to get TWO total for the year, all three seasons combined.

I say it is not ethical to shoot at does with fawns. It might not be legal either in some states.

So your vote is "fawn" or "neither"? Shoulda made this a 3-choice poll.

Wait, you need the meat badly enough to worry about whether to shoot a fawn or a doe with fawns, but don't want to get wet?

That's correct, lol! :D Well, my buddy wussed out - I was ready to go. I guess I *could have* gone on out without him, but.....


If the fawns are out of their spots (thereby making them legal)they are self sufficient and not dependent on mama.

And yes, that is the situation here - we are talking about 6 month old fawns - no spots; about 50-60 pounders, give or take. Not legal to hunt in the summer here (when they have spots). It IS perfectly legal to hunt ANY fawn here.

[jimmyraythomason]

Since I was talking about what I would do, I was speaking of the law as it pertains to me. *Fawns with spots are not legal here so that figures into my comment. If you're doe to buck ratio is as out of whack as our's is,you will gladly fill the freezer with doe meat. You can afford to be more selective AFTER the larder is filled. *The rut is in January here so MANY fawns with spots are out during hunting season

[kdstrick]

doesn't apply to me personally, since we can get six with a bow, and i only want two total for the year, all three seasons combined.

lucky! ;)

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Jimmyray, right, ok, I gotcha - I guess I was asking..... "If you were me...." :)

[jimmyraythomason]

Now Dr.Tad how can I possibly answer that question for you?

[jimmyraythomason]

FWIW.I know this doesn't apply to anyone else except for those in Alabama but HERE you can take one doe per day every day of the season(middle of September-end of January) but only 3 bucks total (with at least one having 4 points or more on one side). So we fill the freezer with the first legal deer then start hunting for THE buck.

[buck460XVR]

I wouldn't shoot the larger of the two fawns....odds are it's a button buck. By the time deer season rolls around here, fawns are pretty self sufficient. Most orphaned fawns are also readily accepted by other mature does as long as they are not nursing. Here in Wisconsin, they are trying to revamp our present hunting season because of the ineffectiveness of our present system to reduce the number of antlerless deer........thus shooting a mature doe makes the most sense. For those that think it is unethical to shoot does with fawns, you are responding to emotions and not science. The truth is most adult does give birth to at least one fawn every year. During some point of the hunting season the does will push the fawns away when they come into estrous.......and are not the "dry does" that many old timers once thought they were. After the doe is out of estrous, she readily welcomes her fawns back till she drops her new ones. Thus, just because you see a doe without fawns, doesn't mean she doesn't have any.

[jimmyraythomason]

There is only a 50/50 chance that the larger fawn is a buck. If you're worried about shooting a young buck don't take ANY antlerless deer.

[bpl]

Well, interesting you started this thread. Yesterday was the first day of archery here in PA. I went out in the morning and had a doe with three fawns approach my stand and give me multiple chances for a broadside shot at about 20 yards. I did not shoot, thinking I'd leave three fawns motherless. We have cold winters and some big coyotes here! Anyway, none of the fawns had spots. Our rut is in early November. Does anyone have any good sources where I can confirm that fawns without spots are 100% self-sufficient? Maybe I should reconsider my philosophy on this.

[Gadzooks Mike]

I'm a softy - I'd let them all go. The fact that they're all together as a family unit yet should tell you something. As the fawns grow older, that bond between them and the doe will lessen and they'll all go off on their own and become fair game. Until then, legal or not, I'd have a difficult time sleeping at night if I had shot any of them. My feelings on that may change (and probably would) were I starving. Since I have a good job and am a good 20 pounds overweight...

[natman]

And those of you who thinks that is cruel may not have spent as much time in nature as others of us... nothing is as cruel as mother nature.

Cruelty implies a certain enjoyment on the part of the inflicter, so nature isn't really cruel. It is however utterly and thoroughly merciless.

[jbkebert]

I am thinking more and more about taking a few does with fawns.. In the past I have not shot either a fawn or a doe with a fawn. I have always tried to single out that old hammer head doe that is past her prime. This year I have 3 does with twins. My buck doe ratio is getting way out of whack. Those old does will drive off bucks is given the chance. Plus the old bats have busted me more than anything else. So if given the opportunity I will shoot the old does and get them gone. Beyond that I will take the Doe with one of the sets of twins. If I loose three deer with one arrow probably better right now for my land. The other night I had 22 does and fawns in my food plot, Along with three bucks and 35-40 turkeys. I have created to much of a good thing and pretty soon. My loand won't be able to support next years fawns on top of what I already have.

[kdstrick]

Cruelty implies a certain enjoyment on the part of the inflicter, so nature isn't really cruel. It is however utterly and thoroughly merciless.

Well said. "Merciless" is a better word.

[surjimmy]

Where the Doc and I are from what we have is a deer success mgt. gone bad. 25-30 years ago Oklahoma hunters were hard pressed to tag a deer, today their everywhere and we are having record numbers being harvested. Being the V.P. of the Oklahoma Wildlife Federation has really taught me a lot about hunting and the management of deer. In an area that is over populated it it always better to shoot the mature doe in the big picture of things. I know it's hard to leave the fawns without their mother, but by doing so you are insuring that a more healthier line of deer will survive.

[kdstrick]

Here is an interesting article I dug up http://www.buckmanager.com/2008/12/15/shooting-does-with-fawns/...

Here is the summary:



In general, harvesting does with fawns will not impact an individual fawn, unless of course the fawn is less than two months in age. Fawns older than two months, found in areas with good habitat, are just as likely to survive after the doe is removed. In short, if you need to remove does to get your deer herd at carrying capacity, do not hesitate to harvest does with older fawns.

It appears to be a pretty good website, check it out.

[jimmyraythomason]

If reducing the number of does to bucks is your aim you MUST take does of breeding age. If you only take the older does that are past breeding age you have only reduced your herd by ONE deer.

[AKElroy]

Depending on the age of the fawns I would say dont shoot any of them.

+1 if they are not weaned; I may watch them for awhile to make sure, and then go for the mama doe if they are free of the teet. As for making orphans of the fawns, I would not attribute too much higher thought to them. When on a cull hunt several years ago, I took a doe in this exact situation. Instructed by radio to stay 5 minutes & take another doe by the owner, I was horrified to see the fawns return, nudging the corpse. I peaked through the binoculars, preparing to lose my lunch. THEY WERE MOVING HER TO GET TO THE CORN.

[schlockinz]

Shoot the doe if you can, the fawns will get kicked in a few weeks anyways.

Or, shoot all three, the fawns sometimes will stay around after you shoot the doe.

As for button bucks, if the fawn has a squarish head, odds are its a button buck.

[chas08]

Personally, I'd pass the shot. I've never been that hell bent on a kill. I have taken many does over the years and actually prefer them for table fare. I just prefer it to be a lone doe. It just sits better with my conscience. But to each his own.

[Arkel23]

P.S. It's raining today or I'd be out there right now. Is it Sunday where you are? Also I know a guy who just two weeks ago shot a doe in front of her fawn twice with a shotgun with buckshot, then the teacher he went with shot the doe again cause its legs were still moving all in front of the fawn. it never moved.

[wankerjake]

I guess I'd shoot a fawn because I bet they are tastier. Calf elk sure are. Here in AZ we don't have to worry about it because they're aren't enough deer to go around. We get one buck a year if we are lucky enough to get drawn.

P.S. Ain't a thing wrong with shooting an animal for meat, even if it's a youngster. Hate to see the "it's immoral to shoot babies" arguement from fellow hunters. It's no different than butchering cattle.

[matrem]

I guess I'd shoot a fawn because I bet they are tastier.
They are!
And I've also killed "baby" groundhogs and swatted "baby" flies.

[JCisHe]

Let em go... at the end of the season, if needed, take the Doe.

[chas08]

Hate to see the "it's immoral to shoot babies" arguement from fellow hunters. It's no different than butchering cattle.
That's probably the right way to look at it. If it doesn't violate state game laws then there should be "no worries". The rest is just simply personal choice.

[schlockinz]

I think the killing babies argument is just projecting our feelings onto the game, they're not humans, they'll survive and be fine if the doe is shot, it not like the fawns are going to become homicidal or make a disney movie about their experience...

[EatBugs]

I shoot the doe first....
why?
she is smarter...
the fawns will stick around for another shot or they will continue to follow old routes till you have a second chance later in year...
a doe with a fawn just shot usually won't give you that chance...

shooting a fawn is no different than eating pork, chicken,or beef... those animals are only raised to most economical and best eating size, not exactly to adulthood...

[auschip]

Put me down for neither. I shoot bucks & barren does.

Fawns just don't have enough meat on em for me.

[Lonestar.45]

You'd catch some serious hell for bringing a fawn back to camp with the guys I hunt with.

I'd vote neither. There are usually plenty of does running around without fawns tagging along with them. If you just HAVE to have some meat or you'll starve, then sure shoot the doe.

Who would want to waste a doe tag on a fawn? :scrutiny:

[jimmyraythomason]

We can legally take an antlerless deer per day,every day of our 3 month long season. There is NO doe tag to waste. Alabama is second to Texas for deer numbers and a whole lot less land to keep 'em on. If we don't thin 'em down we won't have ANY.

[Wolfebyte]

Neither for me..

I won't take a doe that has fawns by her side.. just the way I was raised.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Who would want to waste a doe tag on a fawn?

Because I've got 6 antlerless (doe/fawn) tags every year for the rest of my life, paid for, and that's just archery alone, and I only want one or maybe two deer total on the year for all three seasons combined, both sexes combined. A fawn is fine by me (and tender!) - catching hell from the guys notwithstanding (won't be the first or last time). :)

'Course, if I'm shooting fawns only, I *might* want 3 instead of two total.

[ArmedBear]

Here, a doe tag is a special tag lottery, one per season if you can get one at all.

So, that does change things a bit. If you're trying to kill off your deer, then at least some part of hunting ethics is different from a place where we're trying to preserve them.

[jimmyraythomason]

If you are trying to increase the number of deer then you NEED as many breeding age does as you can get. If your herd is already over populated or your buck/doe ratio is out of kilter you need to remove breeding does. That does not change ethics only tactics.

[Tacbandit]

I never shoot a doe with fawns...(or fawns)

[chevyforlife21]

isnt it illegal to shoot fawn?

[jbkebert]

Well Doc veal always taste pretty damn good to me. Fawns are the same thing diffrent species. If you have a managment issue in your area drop them and eat well. Although just because you have 6 tags doesn't mean you have to fill all six.

[jimmyraythomason]

Fawns are legal game here as long as their spots are completely gone. Our club has a self imposed weight mininum of 40 pounds.

[matrem]

Although just because you have 6 tags doesn't mean you have to fill all six.
No, unless you live in an area where they are very thick, and hunt on landowners that "want em killed".I've experienced feeling in a position that, either I get it done, or the farmer will find someone who will.
My family eats all the venison we want, and give some away.
I find those fawns far harder to give away than those old bucks.

[41magsnub]

Around where I hunt, the farmers love getting rid of does. They are so thick and stupid I don't really call it hunting, I call it shooting. Most of them I have shot are in the middle of a winter wheat field chomping the tops off the sprouts.

It is a single B tag on the draw but there are always surplus doe tags in this area and you can buy a max of 7. Basically a person can get 10 tags, 1 A tag that basically lets you shoot any deer with some region specific restrictions, 1 draw B tag, 7 surplus tags for muley does, and then a single anterless whitetail B tag.

Short version, I shoot fawns with no compunction.

[351 WINCHESTER]

Personally I'd have to be starving before I could kill a doe with 2 fawn's. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

[jimmyraythomason]

Just because you're against it doesn't make it wrong either.

[Tacbandit]

Ethics....

[wankerjake]

Let's face it gents, you're not doing the fawn any favors by shooting the doe, and you're not doing the doe any favors by shooting the fawn. You're killing that animal for food. The only ethics about it are making a good shot. As long as they're getting eaten there ain't a thing wrong with it. Especially in an area with an over-population of deer. If they're aren't many deer then you may want to re-think your strategy. But passing up legal deer, fawns or does alike, and then eating beef and pork all year long is in no way more ethical than taking what nature has offered you. I guarantee you're not eating just bulls and boars. Call me crazy but I think the hunter who will only shoot the biggest buck in the woods is far more unethical than the hunter who hunts to put meat on the table. I get drawn for antlerless elk about every other year, where I legally take an antlerless elk. If I hold the only tag in the family I might hold out for a cow, but otherwise it's boils down to which one gives me the better shot. Yeah it's fun to get out but I'm there to get food. I guess I'm just not spoiled like you boys who have it good. I have to hunt my game, if I get too particular I go hungry...which I dislike. Guess I'm no better than a coyote eh?

[jimmyraythomason]

Alabama hunting regulations are set by state wildlife biologist not hunters or voters and they don't take polls. Size and bag limits are set to benefit the wildlife not hunters or Disney characters. Information collected by field research and end of season hunter reports help them understand what the deer herd can bear. When THEY determine that our deer herd needs to be thinned and that the taking of does (of all ages)is the best way to do it,that settles any "ethics" question for me. If it ain't got a spot it goes in the pot. I'll hunt for antlers in January after the freezer is filled.

[interlock]

our deer seasons the does are not in season until the young are fairly well on. Although we do shoot roe does from november on wards. at this time it is quite likely she will have kids with her. they will have been born in may or june time. So they are quite well grown. It is well accepted that orphanned kids in the first month of the doe season will not make it through the winter. We also look to control numbers through an effective doe cull. So the answer from the uk is shoot the doe first and then shoot the kids. They will often just stand when the female is shot or come back a couple of minutes later. Every effort must be made to cull them aswell.

interlock

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It is well accepted that orphanned kids in the first month of the doe season will not make it through the winter.

That's interesting. Just how harsh ARE the winters there?

[jimmyraythomason]

Winterkill just doesn't happen here even to orphans. Roadkill would be more likely.

[ojibweindian]

As Jimmy said, here in Alabama, our state biologists have set pretty liberal limits on the number of deer we can shoot. True, we do have the 3-buck limit, but we can shoot a doe a day from October 15th to January 31st. Overall, the buck to doe ratio in this state is heavily skewed towards does, and in many places, over-browsing is becoming a serious issue. Two perfect examples of that are Guntersville State Park and Oak Mountain State Park. Only in the past two years, when the deer at Oak Mountain were about to eat themselves out of a home (starvation), has hunting there been allowed.

As far as I know, Guntersville State Park is still posted as no hunting.

[jimmyraythomason]

Right you are ojibweindian, Guntersville is still a no hunt area. I think I heard on the radio a few days ago that registration was underway for the Oak Mountain hunt. The first hunt there was a bust because everybody wanted one of those big bucks and bypassed the does. This year should be different.

[Balog]

I'm envious of Alabama hunters now. :) and a bit saddened by the "hunters" who still think fawns are Bambi and only mean nasty horrible evil people would shoot one.

[3pairs12]

If you felt you cold get a shot at all three I would say go for the doe. The fawns are old enough to survive by now. OTOH if you are actually going to take one of those three deer with a bow I would vote the first one to present a shot. You may not get a shot at mama again.

[3pairs12]

P.S. It's raining today or I'd be out there right now

I would also like to add I went out on Sunday the 4th in the rain probably same system. Saw alot of deer considering I had to walk out and find somebody with a tractor to pull my truck out of a ditch. I should have stayed home also my truck is still there. Dang gumbo mud can't even find anybody local with 4wd tractor so I am waiting for it to dry up and this guy that gave me a ride will pull me out with his tractor. Sorry to hijack rant over.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Does anyone know what age whitetail fawns are weaned? Because as I say, in October, these are 5-6 months old, in my understanding.

also my truck is still there.

Dang, 3pairs, that sucks. But I will say I've noticed that deer do walk around in the rain a fair amount. I've never gotten one in the rain, but I've been out there and seen it. They seem to enjoy the rain, which is a bit weird because they do NOT like to roam around in windy conditions when they cannot hear predators as easily. You'd think the same would apply to rain, and maybe it does to a certain extent, but maybe not as much as with wind (??).

[3pairs12]

http://www.huntingnet.com/staticpages/staticpage_detail.aspx?id=37

In the doe section it says the mother will start rejecting nursing attempts at 10 weeks. Allso says they are fully weaned by the time they lose their spot coat.

[RE-15]

Shoot all three. Mamma doe first so the others stay near. I've learned to distiguish buttons from little does and try to avoid them.

[Specialized]

For those that would like to go by research or experience, I might suggest a few books by Leonard Lee Rue: "The Deer Hunter's Encyclopedia", and "The Way of the Whitetail". Both are loaded with info from deer research and eyewitness observation, and together provide a great education on deer behavior, anatomy, breeding, physiology, etc. A few facts from the books that pertain to this discussion:

1. Doe fawns are fully weaned before their spots fade away, and are often bred successfully in their first fall season.
2. Does can breed for many years, and have been documented to breed into their mid-twenties (33 fawns total for that particular animal).
3. After two months or so, a fawn's survival rate is the same whether its mother is still around or not.
4. The amount and quality of available food determines the size of deer broods, and in years where the food is scarce, many does will be bred but not conceive as a result.


My two cents' worth: I would take as many as you like, in whatever order you like, but I agree that my personal preference is to make sure to leave button bucks alone, if possible, to better the buck-to-doe ratio. I have been faced with a doe and two fawns in bow range, and let's just say they all went to heaven in the same freezer. :D But I checked for nubs on the little ones' heads first.

I would also caution against falling for the "Animal Planet" version of hunting ethics. I know, the influence is insidious and more pervasive than ever, but like global warming, it's an unscientific, emotion-based phenomenon that is actually not only inaccurate, but harmful over the long term for the wildlife it supposedly protects. There is an ever-intensifying battle among so called "conservationists" -- hunters on one end, bunny- and tree-huggers on the other -- to characterize the Earth as either an ecosystem in which people are just another of the vast variety of animals, or as an outdoor playground for a unique, above-the-rest creature that is somehow better or more divinely entitled than every other living thing. I happen to be a fan of the former position, and I like to believe that most, if not all, hunters count themselves at least closer to that end of the spectrum. I really don't have much use for those who want to use the outdoors as their playground and picnic area even while knowing next to nothing factual about it.

There are many other books by deer researchers, hunters, photographers, and others who have advanced the body of knowledge about deer by hands-on observation and experience. Charles Alsheimer, Grant Wood, pick your favorite TV hunter (Greg Miller is probably my favorite), etc, all of which have written books on the subject that are gold mines of information. If I could get the Disney-saturated, bunny hugging populace to read just one of them, I'd feel like I'd made a difference. Unfortunately, the battle is more about emotion and having one's way over others than it is about advancing our knowledge. I'm going to do my thing and let them continue to hope that beef grows on trees. Personally, I don't think it's cow farts that are putting all that methane into the atmosphere. I'm pointing my finger at the eco-terrorist crowd... :D

Specialized

[ChefJeff1]

I was hiking up the canyon across the street from my house today with my 2 dogs where I usually do. deer rifle season opens this Saturday and I'll have the week off to kill a doe deer and a cow elk. Well, about half way up I see these 3 deer. I put my stalk on, as much as you can with 2 fast running dogs and 6+ inches on crispy crunchy snow. I get to just below them and see that they are 3 does. One of them was considerably bigger than the other 2 so I guess that they were her fawns and I thought of this thread. If this opportunity presents itself again, which I bet it will, I'll shoot the bigger doe for sure. I'm not one to pass up an opportunity to shoot my deer. I'm a meat hunter and proud of it.

[matrem]

"Specialized",
Well said, Sir!

[jimmyraythomason]

Leonard Lee Rue III ,IIRC also authored the "Guide to North American Big Game Animals" (as well as a companion book "Big Game Fish"). Very informative reading. Sadly I gave away my copies of both books. I also recommend Erwin Bauer's "Deer in Their World" (1983 Times Mirror).

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
"The only ethics about it are making a good shot."

Nope........Not really....Ethics as stated in my post would refer to knowlege
of the particular piece of land as it pertains to animals/habitat, and what needs to be harvested. This, and being willing to harvest animals accordingly...
I agree with you on the point that we shouldn't just shoot only the biggest buck
with the biggest rack...and yes...a good clean shot is necessary as part of an ethical hunt. Happy hunting:)

[buck460XVR]

Put me down for neither. I shoot bucks & barren does.


..............and just how do you tell if the doe is barren? For a good portion of my life, I milked cows and altho I can spot a dry cow from a hundred yards, I have yet been able to tell if a cow was barren without puttin' her with a bull.....and I still can't tell a dry doe till I gut her out. Again, just cause you see a doe alone during hunting season, does not make her "dry" or "barren".......

[rhoggman]

I don't think the decision (in this case) has anything to do with ethics, or it should not. If it is legal then it is up to you. If you are breaking the law then there should be no question. Since you are not breaking the law and you are hunting for meat, then you should take the doe.

Fawns are not in need of their mothers at this time of the year so I see no issue. If there are too many deer around then the best thing to do from a management standpoint is to kill does.

Many people will not take does because they only hunt for trophies. Many trophy hunters are not meat hunters. To me that is not ethical.

For me it is freezer first wall second. I have the unique opportunity of killing a lot of deer so I can make the decision on a day by day basis, but I kill mostly does. Little deer die too, and they fill he freezer as well. When the grill gets fired up my guests are spoiled no matter what goes down in the forest.

Respecting the animal is about appreciating what the animal has given to you and your family. If you respect the animal nothing is wasted.

[paintballdude902]

this is what my wildlife management teacher told me one day in class

he was working a deer check station and a big man cam in with a little fawn that weighed about 30lbs soaking wet. all the guys at the station laughed except my teacher (hes a short skinny guy and said he was afraid the guy would step on him) and the guy pulled him aside and said "hey little man, you know they think its funny how small my deer is, but tonight ill be cutting my dinner with a fork."

and heres what ive always been told "the youngins taste better"

id shoot the fawn

and are often bred successfully in their first fall season

very true most will be sexually mature by the time they are 1.5 years old and in a well balanced habitat with good food resource and minimal predators some will be sexually mature by 6-7 months

[Art Eatman]

"2. Does can breed for many years, and have been documented to breed into their mid-twenties (33 fawns total for that particular animal)."

Maybe in a pen. In the wild, the teeth are worn down by around eight to nine years. The final year, they're pretty well gaunted down.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"Specialized",
Well said, Sir!

Amen to that!

[jbkebert]

Hey Doc nice to see that your shoulder is better. Good luck sir in all of your hunts. If it feels right at the time of truth it probably is take the shot.

[auschip]

..............and just how do you tell if the doe is barren? For a good portion of my life, I milked cows and altho I can spot a dry cow from a hundred yards, I have yet been able to tell if a cow was barren without puttin' her with a bull.....and I still can't tell a dry doe till I gut her out. Again, just cause you see a doe alone during hunting season, does not make her "dry" or "barren".......

Perhaps a better way for me to put it, would have been to say a doe without a fawn. In my area, a doe w/o fawns means either they didn't make it (either through predation, sickness, etc) or she is barren. Either way that puts her in my crosshairs.

I don't fault anyone else for doing anything, but I just personally wouldn't do it. Kinda like deer drives, it ain't my thing, but as long as it is legal I don't have an issue with it.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey Doc nice to see that your shoulder is better. Good luck sir in all of your hunts.

Thank you jbkebert very much - that is very kind. A combination of 3 things made it possible for me to hunt at least one more year without crossbow:

1. Changing to a 50-60 lb bow, set about 1/2 way, rather than a 60-70 lb bow, cranked all the way up.
2. Weight training, and
3. When I draw, I keep my elbow low while drawing and holding - when I raise it up, it changes the joint geometry I think, such that it makes the dislocation much more likely

[Specialized]

Thanks, Doc!

[lefteyedom]

Deer are feeder animals for predators. Wolves, Coyotes,feral dog, bears and human enjoy them. Hunters make a very small dent in deer population compared to weather, predators and the roadkill.
Kill them cleanly and eat them, it is the way of the world. I shoot does because the meat is good and there is more of it.
Bambi's mother was shot and he did just fine!

[nathan]

For me, the doe will be good eating meat. I will take it in a second. But for those who see its not right, thats fine. Whatever is comfy to one's conscience will make that call on u.

[ReadyontheRight]

I agree with Balog: I'm envious of Alabama hunters now. and a bit saddened by the "hunters" who still think fawns are Bambi and only mean nasty horrible evil people would shoot one.

Maybe you all see a lot more deer than I do during hunting season, but if it's legal, and there's not a chance of a buck to shoot behind them, I will definitely harvest and consume a doe and her fawns. Doe first. but not really too picky if I have a good shot.

I might reconsider this if I did not trust our state DNR to manage the herd well, but they do. I see way more deer than I did as a kid. If there is an over-abundance of deer - like there has been in the upper midwest for quite a few years - an intensive hunting harvest saves all the deer from starving in a tough winter.

To each his/her own, but do you have these questions with birds, beef. pork or fish?

[interlock]

"That's interesting. Just how harsh ARE the winters there?"

not very. but we have to remember that the animals are evolved not to have too much redundancy so they struggle without thier mums in the first winter. There is quite a lot of formal training involved in deer hunting in the uk, and we also shoot deer all year round. I am not saying we are better hunters but in our situation we have the answer to these questions. This has to be seen that this is an answer to the question using British deer, british habitat and british hunting techniques.

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Can't you just shoot one while they are lined up and get two with one shot?

[interlock]

sometimes they dont even have to be lined up. I shot a kid last year that was stood in front of the doe with a pice of bone from the doe.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // Glad I did not read this before last Wed.

I hunted in the rain all day (my only day to hunt) 6:04PM five Doe crossed in front of me, none had spots but three were rather small. I took the largest doe (125lbs), no planning other than meat in the freezer.

We have a no spot rule here, but we do have one guy nick named dog. He harvests deer no matter how small as long as they are not spotted fawns.

I agree with harvesting older smarter Doe to get better chance at Buck and create better enironment for breeding Does.

[rhoggman]

I killed a doe that was a fawn this weekend. I am really looking forward to eating her backstraps wrapped in bacon and marinated in some honey teriaki.

[SammyIamToday]

We call them yearlings here. Not a year old, but it kinda fits. Long as we have basically unlimited antlerless deer, I'll keep shooting them.

They taste great, I do my own butchering, and there's a lot less fat to get off of them. Although in your situation, I'd shoot the big doe first unless I didn't have an ethical shot at her.