German WWII Officer's pistol update


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fprefect
October 4, 2009, 01:14 PM
Well I've finally got some additional info on the WWII German 32 APC officer's pistol. The following is found on the slide.

Deutsche Werke Aktiengesellschaft
Werk Erfurt. Also some kind of crest followed by the letters NPp. One the reverse side is what appears to be the capital letter N on it's side followed by a circled star with what appears to be the letter t on it's side.

Barrel markings. The same letter N (Z) with star and t. CAL 7.65 mm

It has an unusual safety (at least to me). When a round is chambered, pushing a button on the left side of the weapon causes a "bar" on the back of the grip to extend outward about about 3/16th to 1/4". Just by squezzing the grip takes the gun OFF safety.

Overall Length. 6.25 inches
Height 4.0 inches
Mag. cap. 9 rounds.

Gun shows very slight wear (missing blue) on slide near muzzle. No rust anywhere. Holster very well worn but still flexable with no cracks.

What have I got?

F. Prefect

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zombienerd
October 4, 2009, 01:26 PM
A picture is worth a 1000 words. :)

rcmodel
October 4, 2009, 01:34 PM
I believe that you have what is commenly known in the U.S. as an Ortgies pistol.
Yours appears to be one of the rather rare "Button Safety" models.

More then you care to know about it here.
http://ortgies.net/ortgies0015.htm

rc

fprefect
October 4, 2009, 04:08 PM
You're good. The word Ortgies Patent is also on the left slide and the number 40450 I found on the underside. I don't recall ever seeing a safety that functions quite like this one but most of my handguns are revolvers other than a 22 rimfire. Press the button and the back of grip extents rearward about .25". To release safety just squeeze the grip, there is a barely audible "click", and the gun is ready to fire. I

I'll see if can get a picture up later. Out of camera batteries.


Thanks for your help. I cleaned and oiled all the moving parts and it cycled through a whole magazine with no jambs or misfires. Recoil was mild but more than I expected and muzzle flip was a problem with accuracy when firing it as rapidly as possible. I don't plan on selling it, but does it have much collector value with that unusual safety?

F. Prefect

fprefect
October 4, 2009, 04:25 PM
Exact Picture at http://www.buymilsurp.com/ortgies-patent-765-pistol-deutsche-werke-erfurt-p-5015.html although I cannot tell if the one in photo has the "button" safety.

F. Prefect

rcmodel
October 4, 2009, 05:40 PM
I don't plan on selling it, but does it have much collector value with that unusual safety?Although they were pretty good guns for the time, and reliable, there has not been much collector interest in them, except for the WWII guys that want one of everything the Germans used.

As such, value is not real high like a Luger or Walther PPK or something.

These have received no bids with starting prices of $195 & $300.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141114294

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141619929

This one sold for $226.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9214348&oh=

This one sold for $108.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9222172&oh=

If it were mine, I would consider it a neat part of WWII history, and a good old shooter that will probably always work when you need it too.

rc

Ron James
October 4, 2009, 05:58 PM
Ortgies pistols were never an German military issue handgun. There's nothing to say that it wasn't a private purchase but you will not find any acceptance marking on it.. The safety is an odd design but I've never seen any that was different, both of mine are set up that way. These were made in both .25 and 32, in the 1930's the US was flooded with them so they are really quite common. That button is also the take down button. These pistols are not safe to carry with a round in the chamber. As you noticed, push the button and the safety pops out, squeeze the safety and the gun is ready to fire, however, when you release the grip safety it does not pop back out automatically. It will stay pressed in until you manually reset it. Bad design. It is also striker fired, if the sear becomes worn and the safety is in the fire mode, it will and can fire if dropped. also when the sear and other parts become worn they can and will go full auto. The machining and fit is beautiful on these small pistols, the design is something from hell. I can understand why the Germany military would have nothing to do with guns. Note, the grips are released from inside the frame. there is a small lever on the rear of the magazine well that releases them. Do not attempt to pry them off. Also note when you take off the slide, be careful the small spring does not fly off into never land. when you reinstall the slide the firing pin and spring has to be wedged into place prior to doing so. I say wedge, but they really fit kind of loose.

rcmodel
October 4, 2009, 06:10 PM
I would never say never.

While it is true they were never officially a German issue arm, there were tons of them captured by GI's during WWII. And there are reports of them being issued to German Army legal branch officers in the 1930's.

They must have been a pretty popular pocket pistol for at least a few German solders as I know of more then one that came home with a GI after the war ended that still have the capture papers with them..

rc

Ron James
October 4, 2009, 06:42 PM
And most of them were captured from a big pile of guns that were in the village square, or else from a SS General, oops can't be, it's not chromed:)

gyvel
October 5, 2009, 10:18 AM
I believe that you have what is commonly known in the U.S. as an Ortgies pistol.
Yours appears to be one of the rather rare "Button Safety" models

Sorry, but virtually ALL Ortgies pistol safeties operate in this manner. The "grip safety" is activated when the button is pushed, blocking the sear. When you grasp the pistol to fire, the grip safety is squeezed, unblocking the sear. Ortgies were made during the 1920's and possibly into the early 1930's, but it was not an "official" issue to the Wehrmacht or anyone else. They were available in .25 ACP, .32 ACP and .380 ACP. It is likely that some were purchased privately by German military personnel.

Ron James
October 5, 2009, 02:19 PM
Thanks, I had forgotten that the Otergies was also manufactured in .380. My wife's grandfather gave me a .25 Ortgies 40 years ago. my first foreign handgun. The little gun was in new condition but because of the grip safety I was sure it was broken. So back home at the kitchen table I took it apart. ( no books or Internet ). Every thing seemed in order so I started to research it. Later I was able to pick up several more, most with broken grips. A couple I picked up very cheap because the owners believed they were broken. :)

Jim K
October 5, 2009, 07:09 PM
While the Ortgies was popular in Europe and with German officers, they were also imported into the US before WWII, and many of those encountered will be imports, marked "Germany". (That doesn't stop the "I tooked it off'n Herman Gerryman hisself" stories, though.)

The reassembly scoop is that there is a notch in the inside top of the slide into which the back end of the firing pin must be locked before the slide can be put on. A lot of those pistols have been ruined by attempts to reassemble without knowing that little trick. (BTW, the Hamada uses the same scheme.)

Another point is to NEVER dry fire those pistols. The firing pin legs have a bad habit of breaking when the gun is dry fired. AFAIK, the method of setting the grip safety by pushing the button is the same for all those pistols. There is no "rare button safety" model.

Jim

gyvel
October 17, 2009, 05:04 AM
Good Lord! You've had the opportunity to examine a Hamada?

TEDDY
October 17, 2009, 05:50 PM
I have the 25 cal.it shoots good.there were many german pistls around in 1945/6.I bought p38s with holster and lugers with holster.$20 and broom handles same price.mausers carcanos ect $10 and up Boston Music had Johnson rifles for $50.

Jim K
October 17, 2009, 08:16 PM
Hi, Gyvel,

I have a Hamada. The dealer selling it had no idea what it was, so I got it for the price of a average European pocket auto.

I did make an error in the above post. It is not the firing pin that locks into the top of the slide on the Ortgies, it is the rear end of the firing pin spring guide. I must have been sleepy when I wrote that.

Jim

gyvel
October 19, 2009, 08:22 PM
Hi, Gyvel,

I have a Hamada. The dealer selling it had no idea what it was, so I got it for the price of a average European pocket auto.

I'm impressed! The last Hamada I saw on Gunbroker was bid up to $9000.00 and still didn't meet the reserve. It was consecutive to one that was illustrated in Ezell's book.

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