Concealed carriers can be the worst people.

wild cat mccane

October 4, 2009, 03:28 PM

I got a guy to grab his gun yesterday just by looking at him while I was with my girlfriend yesterday.

I don't know what it is, but since I have gotten my permit I have noticed guns in pockets more. A lot more. Well yesterday while walking into a bar with my girlfriend and her friends when two guys walk out. They are in their 40's and I can clearly make an outline in one of the guys pocket of an auto.

They start checking out my lady as we walk by so I just looked over at them and the guy immediately shoved his hand into his pocket and grabbed the handle, now confirming it was a gun.:scrutiny:

I did not threaten him, I did not say anything. I didn't even give him more then a simple eye contact that portrayed only I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

I respect the right to carry, but I have noticed since I got my permit prudence isn't always being exercised in the carry community.

AKElroy

October 4, 2009, 03:41 PM

were you carrying as well?

kdstrick

October 4, 2009, 03:57 PM

Interesting. I've had my CHL since 1996 and never had a confrontation, or near-confrontation like that.

Pretty crazy that guys were leaving a bar and carrying concealed. That is clearly illegal.

John Parker

October 4, 2009, 03:57 PM

I did not threaten him, I did not say anything. I didn't even give him more then a simple eye contact that portrayed only I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

Perhaps he doesn't have the same mastery of non-verbal communication that you do. And you may not know this, but human males look at women pretty much constantly...

AKElroy

October 4, 2009, 04:03 PM

The reason I asked if you were carrying is to have you really consider if you were a little LESS concerned about having a confrontation because you were carrying.

ArmedBear

October 4, 2009, 04:10 PM

And you may not know this, but human males look at women pretty much constantly...

No kidding.

What sort of eye contact did you make with him, and what sort of bar?

And what does "your lady" mean?

I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

That look, whatever it is, seems like it could be seen as a threat, to me.

There are a few ways to avoid having men look at "your lady".

1. Only date really ugly women, although if you go WAY into ugly, people might still stare.
2. Get married. They might look, but seeing the ring generally means they'll be thinking, "You did good, buddy." And you might have less reason to feel the need to protect "your property" from every buzzed man you see, if you can use the word "wife" instead of "lady."
3. Take her to a gay bar. Gay men won't be interested, and lesbians aren't men, so I suppose you wouldn't care if they check her out. Of course, some of those women might also beat the crap out of you.:p And she may not like the guys checking you out, either.

I'd agree with you about some concealed carriers not being the "best" people. I'm just not entirely sure which party is which, here...

Also, I couldn't care less if I "print" in most situations. That doesn't mean that I have any intention of threatening anyone. OC is legal in my state, anyway. Some businesses don't care for it, though, so I keep the gun concealed enough that they can't really say anything.

Funny story. I was on the way to go grouse hunting the mountains with my bird dog, where there are some of those introduced Canadian wolves we don't much care for around here. I had a .357 on my belt, in case I had to protect my dog, since wolves will attack dogs.

So I'm at the gas station in the city, topping off the Jeep since there's no gas where I'm going. A guy comes up to me, seemed kinda desperate. Asked me if he could have a couple of bucks to put a little gas in his car to get home. I said, "sure" and gave it to him, and he put about 3/4 gallon in his car. I turned the other way, he saw the shiny Smith and Wesson for the first time, and he said, "You have a PISTOL!" as his eyes got kinda big. I laughed and told him where I was going, got in the Jeep and took off.

See, a lot of people who carry aren't particularly scary...

Projection, perhaps?

skoro

October 4, 2009, 04:13 PM

Well yesterday while walking into a bar with my girlfriend and her friends when two guys walk out.

So, in your state it's legal to carry weapons in a bar? I thought that was pretty much universally taboo. :scrutiny:

X-Rap

October 4, 2009, 04:24 PM

So, in your state it's legal to carry weapons in a bar? I thought that was pretty much universally taboo.

Not on my planet.

fiddletown

October 4, 2009, 04:25 PM

And was the guy an upright citizen legally carrying a concealed weapon? Or was he some low life, belligerent thug carrying illegally?

Ed Ames

October 4, 2009, 04:27 PM

Location: Texas
Posts: 473

So, in your state it's legal to carry weapons in a bar? I thought that was pretty much universally taboo

Texas law's aren't "pretty much universal". Texas just has weird hangups about alcohol (example: there are actual DRY COUNTIES in Texas).

mustang_steve

October 4, 2009, 04:27 PM

To me, he just threatened you. In some states, that action is considered brandishing, despite the weapon not being fully revealed.

I'm doubtful he was a legal CC'er....probably the typical thug wannabe. Most CCers seem to want to remain concealed, instead of advertising theey are armed.

Either way, I'd be watching him very closely after that, as well as notifying authorities on his display.

THE DARK KNIGHT

October 4, 2009, 04:40 PM

I got a guy to grab his gun yesterday just by looking at him while I was with my girlfriend yesterday.

I don't know what it is, but since I have gotten my permit I have noticed guns in pockets more. A lot more. Well yesterday while walking into a bar with my girlfriend and her friends when two guys walk out. They are in their 40's and I can clearly make an outline in one of the guys pocket of an auto.

They start checking out my lady as we walk by so I just looked over at them and the guy immediately shoved his hand into his pocket and grabbed the handle, now confirming it was a gun.

I did not threaten him, I did not say anything. I didn't even give him more then a simple eye contact that portrayed only I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

I respect the right to carry, but I have noticed since I got my permit prudence isn't always being exercised in the carry community.

Yep. For every High Road poster there's a dozen morons with a gun out there. Sounds like you ran into someone with a high BAC and low realization of reality.

TimM

October 4, 2009, 04:40 PM

Personally, I am proud when I have a girl that every guy wants to "eye-ball".

I would also concur that they guy might have been carrying illegally.

Oyeboten

October 4, 2009, 04:41 PM

'Bars'...seem to be reliably associated with the potential for encountering unpleasant/difficult/troubled/insecure/untogether/intoxicated people, and, incidents involving them.

Too bad it is that way...

Having an attractive female at one's elbow, does not help.

bigfatdave

October 4, 2009, 04:44 PM

Your extra attention on spotting people packing is probably giving you false positives, for starters. For all you know, her was checking his wallet or phone.
When packing (particularly with a cheap holster), adjustments are occasionally necessary. Some people make adjustments without thinking about it. I make an effort to adjust in a private spot, but I'm sure someone has spotted it by now, I highly doubt they felt threatened.
Eyeballing someone on the street might make them uncomfortable, for all we know, you're 7 feet tall and covered with hair, and this guy exiting was feeling threatened by YOU.

Legality of carrying in bars varies, but packing intoxicated is generally frowned on, and is universally an asshat thing to do. Considering that you don't even have a state listed for location, I can't even form an opinion on legality, but what I can say is that you were not "threatened" and "brandishing" did not occur, all your account seems to relay is a case of "printing" on someone's part and jumping to conclusions on yours. Perhaps you should give other citizens the same benefit of the doubt that you would expect in the same situation.

WC145

October 4, 2009, 04:46 PM

The ridiculousness of the opening post of this thread makes me want to post all kinds of inappropriate things but mostly I'm just wondering why the OP is checking the outlines in other peoples pockets.....

meef

October 4, 2009, 05:02 PM

So you have one encounter that you determined was negative in some way and you post "Concealed carriers can be the worst people."

Geez. Does every individual experience you have cause you to broad-brush every person who fits into whatever category?

Did you ever consider that maybe the guy felt threatened by you when he noticed you were eyeballing his crotch region?

Seemed like you stated that you were looking there before he ever got around to checking out your lady.

And:I respect the right to carry, but I have noticed since I got my permit prudence isn't always being exercised in the carry community.
Well then, turn in your permit and things should go back to the way they were.

:cool:

JoeShmoe

October 4, 2009, 05:12 PM

So, in your state it's legal to carry weapons in a bar? I thought that was pretty much universally taboo.

You should move to NY. Not illegal here.

nathan

October 4, 2009, 06:01 PM

Men look to admire. As long they dont make funky moves or else...

Deltaboy

October 4, 2009, 06:26 PM

Lossen up and stop eyeballing strangers so hard.

huntsman

October 4, 2009, 06:26 PM

I just looked over at them and the guy immediately shoved his hand into his pocket and grabbed the handle, now confirming it was a gun.

?????? what handle????
maybe he was just glad to see you :)

MCgunner

October 4, 2009, 06:31 PM

Pretty crazy that guys were leaving a bar and carrying concealed. That is clearly illegal.

If the guy is willing to walk into a bar with a concealed weapon, who's to say he actually has a CCW permit for it?

marv

October 4, 2009, 06:33 PM

From my observations in ChinaMart and other stores/malls I have concluded that: If they are gonna show it, I am gonna look at it.

Double Naught Spy

October 4, 2009, 07:12 PM

They are in their 40's and I can clearly make an outline in one of the guys pocket of an auto.

They start checking out my lady as we walk by so I just looked over at them and the guy immediately shoved his hand into his pocket and grabbed the handle, now confirming it was a gun.

So if it was clearly the outline of an auto (you said clearly), then how does reaching in confirm it is a gun? Weird.

So you got the guy to grab what you think was his gun, huh? Okay. You say you did nothing to provoke it. Maybe you didn't. Maybe he is simply a new carrier and is doing that all too frequent gun check? However, since you think you got him to do it, then maybe you did provoke it, contrary to what is claimed. More weirdness, huh?

In the words of the immortal Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis."

MCgunner

October 4, 2009, 07:29 PM

I walk around with my hand in my pocket on the gun all the time. It's one of the advantages of pocket carry.

ArmedBear

October 4, 2009, 07:33 PM

Look, when I took the class that Idaho requires, one of the things that the instructors hammered home was that, if you carry a concealed weapon, you pretty much give up your right to act like a "bad-ass" if you want to stay out of trouble.

That means no giving stink-eye at someone for looking at your female companion, no doing anything that could be interpreted as you starting or contributing to a fight.

Apologize even if you're in the right. Do what you can to make it CLEAR you don't want to fight. If you have to use your gun, you want to make sure that you are completely innocent of starting or escalating ANYTHING.

Why? You might be perfectly fine in a criminal court, but in a civil court, you can still end up paying.

In some states, there are self-defense protections, but not in all. Not even in Idaho, where carrying in a bar is perfectly legal, open-carrying on the state capital steps is perfectly legal, and guns are as common as any other power tool.

If you are carrying, you have NO BUSINESS giving someone a threatening look when he's doing nothing illegal. If you want to get in a fight over some guy leaving a bar and admiring your female companion (not threatening, not assaulting), then DON'T CARRY. If your mentality is such that you think that you are right to act threateningly towards people for whatever reason you devise, then DON'T CARRY. You're bad for the rest of us.

In all seriousness, if someone gave me a threatening look, which is what you did, I might put my hand in draw position, not as a threat, but because I feel like a threat to me is possibly imminent. There's nothing illegal or immoral about readying yourself to defend yourself against an attacker, when you've done nothing to provoke the attack. And looking at a woman in public is neither illegal, nor any justification for an attack.

ArmedBear

October 4, 2009, 07:34 PM

I walk around with my hand in my pocket on the gun all the time. It's one of the advantages of pocket carry.

Ditto.

(The other advantage is that you can actually get the gun out if you need to.)

megatronrules

October 4, 2009, 07:43 PM

This is a strange post indeed however I must say that us men do tend to look and sometimes over look at an attractive woman. I've had this happen to me as well when out with my wife is and attractive brunette with a nice rack. do men look at her above and below the neck? yup they sure do,but as along as they don't disrespect i don't care because shes going home with me.

I think some members of the male gender never grow up past a high school or junior high school mind set of "hey you better not look at my girl". Give me a break if you don't want someone to gawk at your car then don't drive a Ferrari drive a ford or a yugo. The same applies to woman you date an attractive broad with a nice body men(assuming they're straight) ARE GONNA LOOK AT HER. So get over it already.

HexHead

October 4, 2009, 08:37 PM

Interesting. I've had my CHL since 1996 and never had a confrontation, or near-confrontation like that.

Pretty crazy that guys were leaving a bar and carrying concealed. That is clearly illegal.
Not necessarily. It's legal here in TN as long as the place isn't posted.

orionengnr

October 4, 2009, 08:46 PM

And you may not know this, but human males look at women pretty much constantly...
Yep.
That means no giving stink-eye at someone for looking at your female companion, no doing anything that could be interpreted as you starting or contributing to a fight.
Yep.

Considering that you don't even have a state listed for location, I can't even form an opinion on legality...
Big-time-yep.

If you are carrying, you have NO BUSINESS giving someone a threatening look when he's doing nothing illegal. If you want to get in a fight over some guy leaving a bar and admiring your female companion (not threatening, not assaulting), then DON'T CARRY. If your mentality is such that you think that you are right to act threateningly towards people for whatever reason you devise, then DON'T CARRY. You're bad for the rest of us.
Triple-yep.
You start out by saying that concealed carriers are the worst people, and then go on to prove your point...in a way I don't think you intended.

Take a long, hard look in the mirror. Given the evidence, it seems that you are the problem.

wheelgunslinger

October 4, 2009, 09:01 PM

Sorry man, but the look you were giving me gave me the heebie jeebies. You must have learned how to pop your crazy eyes from Eddie Griffin.

And, I do not look fortyish. Do I? :(

oneounceload

October 4, 2009, 10:03 PM

Still doesn't matter - IF the idiot WAS carrying AND threatening a brandishing or worse, HE needs a comeuppance......Bars, plus booze, equals instant azzhole, and you don't need to aggravate the situation - but the other moron needs a time out care of the county

bigfatdave

October 4, 2009, 10:39 PM

oneounceload, how do you know the guy exiting had been drinking? Can you reliably determine his exact level of impairment from the OP?
For all you know it was a bar/grill - exactly the type of establishment that forces me to disarm is I want to stay legal here in Ohio.
Not every person exiting a bar is drunk, or even the least bit intoxicated. All you have to go on is a one-sided personal account, presented without context, evidence, or a NPOV ... of course the person telling the story is the hero who felt threatened, because the story wouldn't be getting told if he felt otherwise.

And how the hell does "threatening a brandishing" work? Either you "brandish" or you don't, the brandishing is the threatening act.

Tacbandit

October 4, 2009, 10:56 PM

"prudence" can and should also include choosing our entertainment destinations a little more carefully...not a judgement on this particular situation, ....just an observation in general...

Tacbandit

October 4, 2009, 11:24 PM

Depending on where you are...just showing a weapon can be construed as "brandishing"

c919

October 4, 2009, 11:34 PM

?????? what handle????
maybe he was just glad to see you

"Is that a broomhandle in your pocket, or are you just..... oh pocket carry C96, sorry sir, carry on."

KingAirDriver

October 4, 2009, 11:46 PM

FWIW, here in KS you are able to legally carry concealed into a bar, provided it is not posted with the "Gunbuster." However, if you carry into a bar, you'd better not be drinkin'!

wild cat mccane

October 5, 2009, 01:45 AM

9MMare

October 5, 2009, 01:48 AM

If this is the rudest encounter this poster has has out in public lately, he's exceptionally lucky....carrying or not. And his sensitivity is a bit concerning since he's relating it to his own CC.

Lincoln7

October 5, 2009, 02:03 AM

I don't hate you, Wild Cat. I agree that most of the replys here were unneccessarily harsh. I would also be very uncomfortable if I had encountered someone who is carrying and has possibly been drinking, reach to grasp their firearm in response to your presence. Not cool.

fiddletown

October 5, 2009, 02:09 AM

...I am totally taken aback from some responses. ...I suspect that a major reason for the harsh response was that you seemed to make the unwarranted assumption that this fellow was an honest person lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. And you titled your post, "Concealed carriers can be the worst people." That's painting all lawful carriers of concealed weapons with an awful broad brush based on one encounter with someone who may not, in fact, have been an honest citizen with a permit to carry a concealed gun.

christcorp

October 5, 2009, 02:11 AM

This reminds me of:

"Once upon a time........"

gglass

October 5, 2009, 02:36 AM

Hmmm... Why might some of the responses to this post be a little hostile? Could it possibly be the intimation one reads into the title to this thread? "Concealed carriers can be the worst people."

I have always been under the impression that concealed handgun license holders are just about the safest and most law abiding of any other demographic group.

Here is a link to a TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY report showing just how safe you are around CHL licensees.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2007.pdf

Wildyams

October 5, 2009, 02:36 AM

Wild Cat,
let me start out by saying welcome to THR. You will soon find that we have many knowledgeable people around here. It is not our intent to hurt you or your feelings. One thing you will learn is when you ask for our opinions or present us with a scenario, you will get exactly that, our opinions. Most of us don't sugar coat things with layers of b.s. If they feel you are doing something wrong, they will let you know. That is one of the main reasons I come to THR when I have a question, because I can expect a good answer, even if its not what I want to hear.
From what I have read in this thread, nothing was too far out of line.

As for your situation, yeah, I would have been uncomfortable. Maybe you could have cooled things down with a casual "hi" or "good evening" to its not just uncomfortable stares being exchanged.

Lonestar49

October 5, 2009, 03:24 AM

...

Funny how bars, booze, guns, women, bring out the_best in the old west type days..

Same testosterone, same, quick, jealousy's, same stupid fights with min eye contacts.. Well, almost in this case.

But mix the three main elements and the one with the girl is the most hated by the ones without a girl..

Just now its cars instead of horses as everyone leaves or arrives.

Ls

jad0110

October 5, 2009, 08:14 AM

I suspect that a major reason for the harsh response was that you seemed to make the unwarranted assumption that this fellow was an honest person lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. And you titled your post, "Concealed carriers can be the worst people." That's painting all lawful carriers of concealed weapons with an awful broad brush based on one encounter with someone who may not, in fact, have been an honest citizen with a permit to carry a concealed gun.

My thoughts as well. How do you know this jerk was carrying legally? Typically, people who go to the trouble / hassle of getting a permit don't do retarded stuff like this and risk loosing their 2nd amendment rights forever. I pocket carry from time-to-time, and I few times I've put my hand in my pocket on the grip of my 642 when in Col Cooper's "condition orange", but I'm always pretty casual about it not drawing attention to what is in my pocket.

Also, and I really don't mean this to sound harsh towards you, but I used to know a guy that, errr, dressed like a 'banger even though he was about the nicest person you'd ever meet. But he still looked like TROUBLE. Don't know if this may be a factor for you or not.

LightningMan

October 5, 2009, 08:24 AM

Just because you think or know for sure that someone is carring a concealed firearm doesn't mean they have a legal permit to do so. Just a thought, LM.

jackstinson

October 5, 2009, 09:04 AM

Double Naught Spy

October 5, 2009, 09:25 AM

How can you say people want to be checked out in on sentence and then tell the OP to not check the pockets below the waist because it is creepy? A lot of fashion happens below the waist.

Besides, what is wrong with threat assessment. You you willing to give up personal security by not checking out that which is readily visible?

meef

October 5, 2009, 10:35 AM

mccane....

Are you for real? (and I mean that in the most honest, sincere and helpful sort of way)

You come on a predominantly firearms forum and post a thread titled "Concealed carriers can be the worst people".

You're taken aback because folks take exception to this? Go figure.

Or let's try this scenario:

You wander in off the Internet to a Catholic forum and post a thread that goes like this:

Catholics can be the worst people.

I got a guy to grab his religious medal yesterday just by looking at him while I was with my girlfriend yesterday.

I don't know what it is, but since I have gotten religion I have noticed holy symbols more. A lot more. Well yesterday while walking into a bar with my girlfriend and her friends when two guys walk out. They are in their 40's and I can clearly make an outline on one of the guy's chests of a St. Christopher.

They start checking out my lady as we walk by so I just looked over at them and the guy immediately shoved his hand onto his T-shirt and grabbed the medal, now confirming it was a St. Christopher.

I did not threaten him, I did not say anything. I didn't even give him more then a simple eye contact that portrayed only I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

I respect the right to believe in God, but I have noticed since I got religion prudence isn't always being exercised in the Catholic community.Honestly dude, fess up... are you a troll?

:cool:

NMGonzo

October 5, 2009, 10:40 AM

That wasn't his gun in his pocket, wandering eyes mccane ...

hardluk1

October 5, 2009, 12:03 PM

Me too ,just a comfy hand rest. Maybe the tread starter is just a bit jumpy too.

wild cat mccane

October 5, 2009, 01:56 PM

I thought CAN in the title would mediate any reaction that I thought all ccw people were bad. Especially since I am one, and I labeled myself as one.

If I represented myself as being emotional about the situation, I think I must apologize. The mirror is also available to those attacking me for being offended that I noticed someone almost drawing their gun on person with 3 girls and about 20 feet away from them.

Good day.

Deanimator

October 5, 2009, 02:28 PM

They are in their 40's and I can clearly make an outline in one of the guys pocket of an auto.
And you knew they were LAWFULLY carrying HOW?

Or do you not distinguish between LAWFUL concealed carriers and criminals?

Do you think that the actions of a holdup man with a gun in his pocket reflect badly on somebody with a valid CCW credential? If so, WHY?

Of course where I live, if you're carrying into a bar, you're by definition a criminal.

ArmedBear

October 5, 2009, 02:52 PM

If I represented myself as being emotional about the situation, I think I must apologize.

No, you represented yourself perfectly clearly.

You're the sort of person who refers to a woman as "my lady" and gets aggressive when someone at a bar looks at her. And yes, a "look" can be aggressive. You should know that. A look is all it takes for two dogs to fight, and people aren't much different.

Then, you are paranoid about the intentions of others.

And you don't even recognize these things, because you seem surprised when we point them out.

I think you should reconsider whether you should be carrying a gun. Seriously. Stay out of the trouble you seem to want to get into.

Cosmoline

October 5, 2009, 03:00 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. STAY OUT OF BARS. They are a nexus of criminal misconduct. Brewpubs are generally fine. But a lot of idiots go to bars looking for trouble, then get drunk which makes them even more dangerous.

ArmedBear

October 5, 2009, 03:05 PM

Why would a sane person want to go somewhere where he feels endangered, to relax, anyway?

texas bulldog

October 5, 2009, 03:18 PM

it was mentioned earlier and seemed to go unnoticed...

you probably could have diffused the situation by greeting the fellows as you walked past. this would have done a few things things:

1. brought their attention to you instead of "your lady", even if only momentarily, thus breaking the "20 second stare".
2. let them know that you are paying attention to them. if they're criminal thugs as opposed to lawful carriers, they will (typically) be less likely to choose a target that seems aware of their surroundings.
3. if they were actually lawful carriers as you suggest, it might have conveyed that you were a friendly fellow citizen rather than the threat they perhaps interpreted you to be.

i understand what you believe the situation to have been, but keep in mind that your look may well have identified you as the threat in this person's eyes.

texas bulldog

October 5, 2009, 03:24 PM

one more thing...

i have learned from my own ill-spent youth that drinking is best done at home or in the home of a friend or family member. and for "going out with friends", there are often better options than bars.

ArmedBear

October 5, 2009, 03:33 PM

There are a couple of other factors.

I'm not a traditional values kind of person. I lived with a few girls before I met my wife. I'm neither proud, nor ashamed, of it, either way.

But... If you get married, some of your attitude can change. Some guy checks out your wife, and all you think is, "Yup," and smile. Vows matter.

If you don't think your girlfriend of 5 years is worth marrying, then GET OUT, don't take out your angst on other people. Life's too short for that ****, one way or another.

That's not judgment of you. That's close to two more decades in the University of Hard Knocks talkin'. Good luck.

Darkness

October 5, 2009, 03:53 PM

I really cannot make an informed opinion about this post without understanding the viewpoint of the other party.

Please post several pictures of your lady at varying angles so that we may get the entire scope of this encounter.

:)

rainbowbob

October 5, 2009, 03:57 PM

...he was staring right back body facing OUR BACKS

NO! He was staring at your girl's backside? Oh the HORROR!! :what: :eek:

...I noticed someone almost drawing their gun...

No you didn't (at least not from your multiple descriptions of the event).

You noticed someone put their hand on their concealed firearm - period. That is a LONG way from drawing it.

It sounds like the same kind of response you might get from me if you give me threatening looks. I'm not "almost drawing" - but I am prepared if your behavior escalates from threatening looks to threatening actions.

I've been wrong lots of times (including threads and posts on THR) - and I've been called on it.

Learning begins when one is willing and able to admit they are wrong.

You are wrong.

Get used to the fact that men will look at your girl if she is attractive. That includes her backside.

Be aware of everything around you - and be prepared for anything.

Do NOT project your willingness to engage in confrontation with looks, words, or actions.

If someone tries to start anything - even though you have scrupulously done everything you can to avoid confrontation - walk your way out of it or talk your way out of it.

Do that even if an aggressive offender calls you terrible names in front of your girl insinuating a lack of manliness and courage.

Finally - and only as a last resort when it is clearly unavoidable - square up and confront the aggressor with everything you've got.

KBintheSLC

October 5, 2009, 04:46 PM

OP,

I wouldn't look too far into it. People give each other dirty looks all of the time. Actually, you may have given them a dirty look without noticing when they were eye'ing your girl. BTW... guys do that all of the time... it is a reflex. ;)

My advice is learn to let things be. You don't like people staring you down, and people don't like being stared down. The trick is to humble yourself... others will pick up on it and be less threatened by you. You will be kicking yourself in the rear really hard when you land yourself in prison over some loser eye'ing your girl.

Now that you are CC'ing, things must change. Put the ego on the back burner, and be the bigger man.

PS... don't focus your attention on other people's CCW if you spot it. I know that would make me uncomfortable.

ArmedBear

October 5, 2009, 04:51 PM

You will be kicking yourself in the rear really hard when you land yourself in prison over some loser eye'ing your girl.

The only consolation will be that you won't be alone in prison. There are other guys in there for that, and man, you will hate yourself when you look at some of those idiots and think, "I'm that guy, too."

Don't be that guy.

If you're involved in a questionable shooting, the first thing the DA will try to show is that it was a shooting over male ego, not a real threat.

If your justification for "self-defense" is, "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them," you will end up in prison.

I don't care which state you're in, or what the "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" law is. No state allows the use of deadly force in a situation that doesn't involve a criminal act, whether that's a generic "felony" or only a deadly, violent threat to life or limb.

mgmorden

October 5, 2009, 04:55 PM

Personally I just can't see the fuss over this. The guy didn't draw, didn't brandish the weapon, or anything. Except for the OP being observant there would not have been the "Hey has a gun!" issue at all. As a carrier I put my hand on my gun quite often. Anytime I feel threatened, uneasy, or just plain unsure about a situation. Putting my hand on my gun in my pocket doesn't cost me anything. Situation doesn't' escalate and the gun stays where it is. No harm no foul. However if the situation DOES escalate then I'm already a lot closer to drawing than if I hadn't.

Put it this way. If I'm in any city or the like walking down a street with few people around, and I see a single other person coming down the street, I'll calmly put my hand on my gun in my pocket until that person passes and I know everything is good. Hell when I was in Atalanta earlier this year this almost exact situation happened. Saw a rough looking character coming up the street. Didn't have my gun on my since GA doesn't have a reciprocal agreement with SC CWP holders, so I had my hand on my pocket knife instead. I crossed the street about 75 yards before I got there and he crossed the street to to match. Luckily it was just a bum begging for money, but when I saw him cross the street too you have no idea how much I wanted my gun with me just in case.

bigfatdave

October 5, 2009, 10:46 PM

You noticed someone put their hand on their concealed firearm - period. That is a LONG way from drawing it.
Correction, noticed someone put their hand on what might have been a concealed firearm

gglass

October 5, 2009, 11:10 PM

Correction, noticed someone put their hand on what might have been a concealed firearm

This is the part of the whole matter that is bugging me. The only time I have ever identified that a person REALLY has a firearm is when I can see said gun or its holster. My guess is that since these were a couple of 40-something fellows, is that one of them still had a dry-erase marker in his pocket from the office.

bigfatdave

October 5, 2009, 11:21 PM

My guess is an Altoids tin and a phone in the same pocket.

X-Rap

October 5, 2009, 11:31 PM

I find it hard to believe that a guy is wearing pants tight enough that you can see a gunprint but there is still enough room for the guy to grab it??
Sometimes it seems we just don't have enough drama in our lives.

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 6, 2009, 12:31 AM

Funny how if the rest of the posters in this thread hadn't gotten so butt-hurt by the title, they would be saying

"blablablabl condition zero orange soda"
"blablabal good job on staying situationally aware, OP balbalbal orange condition red alert"
"blablabal, you were about to be mugged, blabalabl"

I'm not gonna fly off the handle like ArmedChair (just kidding ArmedBear :) ) and say that you should reconsider carrying.

Is it wrong that they ogle your girlfriend? Yes, where I'm from it's very dis-respectful.

At the end of the day, or week, will it matter? No, not one bit.

What I will tell you is maybe to reconsider how Zen you are about bums like those two guys, whose fathers never bothered to teach them respect.

Personally, I ignore miscreants that stare at my girlfriend, since, as she puts it " They are loser, honey, you walk home with me, so you are the winner"

christcorp

October 6, 2009, 02:21 AM

I'm still sticking with the "Once upon a time......" Theory. It's a made up fairytale story. Sorry; but it doesn't even sound plausible.

I think the "Troll" theory is also viable.

jpwilly

October 6, 2009, 03:12 AM

"Concealed carriers can be the worst people."

Why don't you stop staring at peoples packages and try to loosen up an have a good time. :)

TexasBill

October 6, 2009, 04:07 AM

Texas allows those with a CHL to carry into establishments the derive less than 51% of their revenue from sales of alcoholic beverages. However, most bars don't fall under that exemption (at least, not the successful ones), so packing a piece inside most bars in Texas is illegal except for LEOs. Other states allow it but prohibit the carrier from consuming or purchasing alcoholic beverages (Arizona is like this). It's a bit surprising the guy would show a weapon in such circumstances unless you live in a state where drinking and carrying is okay (please tell me which one it is, as I don't ever want to be there on a weekend).

Still, the guy brandishing a weapon was maybe out of line, but perhaps he noticed you were packing and thought you might have been challenging him. You don't know what was running through his mind at the time but it's still a situation that would be best resolved with a smile and walking on by.

I personally don't go out of my way to look for concealed weapons; I just look for people who might present a threat. Any way I can get out of a situation without anybody getting hurt and without touching my sidearm is the way I am going to chose and situational awareness is one of the keys to the graceful exit.

meef

October 6, 2009, 09:39 AM

I'm still sticking with the "Once upon a time......" Theory. It's a made up fairytale story. Sorry; but it doesn't even sound plausible.

I think the "Troll" theory is also viable. Yeah.

The more I look at this, the more I feel that nothing about it is believable. The whole thing is just too silly.

The OP lives under a bridge.

:cool:

CajunBass

October 6, 2009, 10:01 AM

Lesson learned: If you're not ready to have people laugh in your face, don't come here and post your "well it coulda happened" story.

Even if everything is exactly was you posted it in the original post, NOTHING happened. End of story.

Sam1911

October 6, 2009, 11:20 AM

It's a bit surprising the guy would show a weapon in such circumstances unless you live in a state where drinking and carrying is okay (please tell me which one it is, as I don't ever want to be there on a weekend).

Oh, Bill, Bill, Bill... :banghead:

There are a number of states that do not limit their citizens' right to self defense merely based on consumption of alcohol.

PA, my beautiful home state (Commonwealth), is one. Further, we don't have a statuatory limit on BAC to carry, either.

This Sunday I sat down to a nice lunch and a good beer with my family at a bar & grill with my 1911 on my hip. No laws broken, and no-one died! Imagine that. In fact, I could have carried openly and done the same thing. Wouldn't the good folks in Texas have a heart attack over THAT? :D

Seriously, you should read this thread for a recent discussion of the realities of carry & bars: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477743

To tell you the truth, in response to your jab about not wanting to spend the weekend somewhere where carrying while drinking was legal, I recently spent 5 days in a state where bar carry is, at best, a confused issue. The experience was UNNERVING in the extreme. Always having to check to make sure I was legal in some place or having to go back to the car to stow my gun just to enter an establishment! Yikes. It was good to get home and breathe "free" air again! :D

-Sam

ArmedBear

October 6, 2009, 12:14 PM

One way or another, it's probably not a good idea to spit out your chew and say, "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" when a guy looks at an attractive woman and has a bulge in his pocket.

Spirit 1

October 6, 2009, 06:23 PM

Wildcat McCane, I don't think you have any idea what you're doing! You haven't got a clue what's going on!

Now, if those comments got your hackles up right away I think it will make my point.

I also had no idea, no clue, what I was doing. A girl made a comment to me, "Why did you stare at them like that?" Huh? I didn't think I was staring. A little later, "See, you did it again!" I thought, man, this girl's getting weird here.

Then I began to watch 'me'. Wow, she was right! Several times before I'd had encounters with guys that I didn't expect, like them getting aggressive. How come? Because of ME! I was staring at them and plenty of people take that as aggressive behavior, a challenge, "You looking at me, punk!??"

You stated that you STARED at them for 20 seconds, a third of a minute, and then turned and stared at them as they walked away, after passing you. Hey, guess what? That's pretty aggressive, especially in the bars I used to hang in. And in the bars I went to guys didn't spend their time looking at other guys below the belt, reason enough right there to get your teeth punched in! That crotch eyeballing wasn't included in the 20 seconds, because the 20 seconds were spent watching their eyes closely.

So, these guys are leaving a bar and some guy comes up giving them the stare down, spends 1/2 a minute watching them intently, and then he's checking out their crotches, plus turning to watch them as they walk away. And you're surprised they didn't like that much, and maybe thought you were a potential problem? Or a little perverted?

You seem to have a confrontational state of mind and also regularly engage in confrontational behavior. In other words you challenge people continually, whether you know it or not. I know I did, but only after it was pointed out to me.

I changed my ways, like others here have suggested. Now everywhere I go, everyone I meet or pass, I try to give a nod, or a friendly smile, or 'Hi' or 'How ya doin'?' or whatever. Downright amazing how many nice people there are out there, who smile back and say hi. Haven't had to shoot anybody all week and it's Tuesday already.

Like others said, you maybe need to take a close look at your own mind set before you go and shove a pistol in your pocket. A hair trigger temper isn't allowed for those that carry....

Demitrios

October 6, 2009, 07:04 PM

Well there's only one thing to do now. Take away whatever experience you can from this little incident and let the rest go. If a guy checks out your woman then let him check her out, no harm no foul. It's HER job to stick with you and YOUR job to give her proper (and I don't mean threats of harm) reasons to stay. Now if a guy is being a blatant lech, so what? You keep walking to your destination, start having a good time and before you know it you'll have forgotten about him. However if you see a guy eyeballing you and he reaches for his piece over a look, then something went terribly wrong and I'm thinking there's more to this story than what you're telling. He may've THOUGHT you were carrying and reacted pre-maturely, although that doesn't excuse him it still could've been his reason. And you need to learn not to carry into a bar, even if you're not drinking, it looks bad and can get you in a world of trouble (this' aimed at the older guy, not you).

unloved

October 6, 2009, 07:37 PM

And you need to learn not to carry into a bar, even if you're not drinking, it looks bad and can get you in a world of trouble .
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

rainbowbob

October 6, 2009, 08:48 PM

Like others said, you maybe need to take a close look at your own mind set before you go and shove a pistol in your pocket.

Spirit 1 learned it. I learned it. And so can you McCane.

It just takes a little objective self-evaluation (usually after being corrected by others), and a realization that the purpose of carrying a DEFENSIVE firearm is to avoid violent confrontations and never have to use it.

Avoidance means NOT being confrontational with looks, words, or actions. It means NEVER starting anything with anybody for any reason.

It took me almost 58 years to learn this - and it only sunk in I started carrying regularly. The lessons came from posting experiences here (as you did) and having other posters point out where I went wrong and how to avoid such mistakes.

It boils down to this...I try to avoid correcting the rude behavior of others in public. (Sometimes I still slip - like when people cut in line when it is obvious others have been waiting a long time).

So I'm not always successful - but I'm trying to get my mind right.

And I'm just paying it forward.

You're a young guy and are way ahead of me if you learn this now the easy way - rather than later the hard way.

Sam1911

October 6, 2009, 09:21 PM

And you need to learn not to carry into a bar, even if you're not drinking, it looks bad and can get you in a world of trouble .

Sarcasm? Hard to tell on the internet. I'm assuming, seeing as you're in PA, you're kidding.

This Sunday I sat down to a nice lunch and a good beer with my family at a bar & grill with my 1911 on my hip. No laws broken, and no-one died! Imagine that.

...

Seriously, you should read this thread for a recent discussion of the realities of carry & bars: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477743

-Sam

unloved

October 6, 2009, 09:29 PM

Sarcasm? Hard to tell on the internet. I'm assuming, seeing as you're in PA, you're kidding.

Oops, that line is a quote. I forgot to tag it. :o I'll fix it now.

unloved

October 6, 2009, 09:37 PM

Hold on while I don my asbestos underwear.:neener:

OK, I carry into bars, restaurants that serve alcohol, and parties where alcohol is present all the time. I even drink while armed. It's perfectly legal in my state. Although I don't get drunk, I wouldn't be violating any law if I did. I don't buy the "impairment begins with the first drink" nonsense, and I'm a responsible adult who knows that 'drinking' doesn't mean pounding beers and slamming back shots until I'm blind and stupid.

Flame away.:)

f4t9r

October 6, 2009, 09:43 PM

Some are better then others.
I have ran accross some issues I did not agree with on CCW, but all types of people in the world.
Guns and drinking not good in my opinion !!!
If you are going to carry and drink then I hope you use good judgement of when to stop. Maybe a designated carrier & driver would work.

Keizer

October 6, 2009, 09:46 PM

A hair trigger temper isn't allowed for those that carry....

I totally agree! I used to work as a machinist, and the owner was a captain for Delta airlines. I always admired his very calm personality. Then, I discovered that allot of airline pilots have the same calm personality. Then I figured out that this calm personality most likely goes hand in hand with being a good pilot. Especially when you are responsible for hundreds of peoples lives that are sitting behind you. I feel that if you are going to carry, I hope you have a similar personality as I described above.

Sam1911

October 6, 2009, 09:50 PM

Sarcasm? Hard to tell on the internet. I'm assuming, seeing as you're in PA, you're kidding.
Oops, that line is a quote. I forgot to tag it. I'll fix it now.

Ahhh, makes sense now! I thought you'd had a mysterious change of perspective in, like, two days! :D

Amazing how many people, even HERE, will toss out a line like, "Why, if you'd just DISARM yourself, everything would be fine!"

The mind wobbles.

-Sam

Sam1911

October 6, 2009, 09:52 PM

OK, I carry into bars, restaurants that serve alcohol, and parties where alcohol is present all the time. I even drink while armed. It's perfectly legal in my state. Although I don't get drunk, I wouldn't be violating any law if I did. I don't buy the "impairment begins with the first drink" nonsense, and I'm a responsible adult who knows that 'drinking' doesn't mean pounding beers and slamming back shots until I'm blind and stupid.

A flash of logic that should be a sticky here!

-Sam

LightningMan

October 6, 2009, 10:06 PM

In my state, I can carry while in an establishments that serve alcoholic beverages, but I can't consume them myself, otherwise I would be in violation of one of the restrictions placed apon my permit. Whats legal in one state, may not be in another. LM

unloved

October 6, 2009, 10:20 PM

Guns and drinking not good in my opinion !!!

How about knives and drinking? Pens and drinking? Pool cues and drinking? Heavy glass beer mugs and drinking? Hands, elbows, knees, and feet and drinking? The world is full of objects that could be used as deadly weapons. I'm physically capable of killing with my bare hands, most people are. Yet I've never committed murder. I submit that a reasonable number of drinks, over a reasonable period of time, will not turn a reasonable person into a pistol twirlin', celebratory shootin', maniac.

MT GUNNY

October 6, 2009, 10:22 PM

The Quote "All is fair in Love and War" comes to mind!

unloved

October 6, 2009, 10:32 PM

Whats legal in one state, may not be in another.

It's strange that such a simple concept is so difficult for many to understand.

Isher

October 6, 2009, 10:38 PM

Grasshopper -

Please to distinguish between

Pocket trout

And concealed carry.

isher

Tacbandit

October 7, 2009, 12:46 AM

Unbelievable.......

DeepSouth

October 7, 2009, 02:23 AM

I might have been that fellow. Sorry :uhoh:

I have my hand in my pocket, and therefore on my gun, when

1: I'm pumping gas
2: I'm standing in a checkout line (unless I have to hold items with both hands)
3: I hear someone "getting loud" even if it is 200 ft away
4: I'm standing out in public talking to a buddy
5: I see someone looking at me "suspiciously"

I'm not paranoid, I just have a habit of putting my hand in my pocket and while it is there I put in the most comfortable position......on the gun. The majority of the time I don't even realize I'm doing it. I pocket carry a PM45 and that is a pocket full, the draw from pocket is generally slow BUT if I start out with my hand already on my gun, draw time is significantly increased therefore, I doubt I'll be in a huge hurry to break the habit.

drjoker

October 7, 2009, 05:06 AM

You GLARED at him. How's he supposed to know what you were thinking? You were not thinking of beating him up, but how's he supposed to know that? Is he a psychic? Usually, when someone comes out of a room of stupid people, I mean bar, and someone gives someone else a wrong look over a girl, a fight ensues. If it were me, I would immediately correct the misunderstanding by tipping my hat, smiling, and saying, "howdy."

Second of all, carrying a gun into a bar is illegal in Texas. If it isn't illegal in your state, I'd avoid rooms of stupid people, I mean bars, altogether. I mean, how smart is that? A room full of DRUNKS tot'in guns! Alcohol makes people do stupid stuff. Doing stupid stuff with guns, yeah... right.

Hey, if someone GLARED at me for doing what I, as a man, involuntarily does (stare at sexy chicks), I'd put my hand on my gun, too, because that glare usually precedes a brutal beating! As long as he doesn't take it out and brandish, it's fine. I've put my hand on my gun for fashion faux pas that are smaller violations than your angry glare. If someone walks into a convenience store wearing a hoodie and baggie clothes, I will reach for the gun in my pocket. If someone walks up to my car while I'm parked at a drive through, if someone approaches the bank teller with a large empty sack, I will put my hand on the gun. And just a couple of days ago, someone in "the hood" (the TX state fair is in a bad neighborhood) was wearing a hoodie and baggie clothes who approached my girl from behind, looked left and right, then started to pull something out of a sack. I immediately walk out of his blind side and into his field of view, put my hand in my bag and let him hear a loud "click". I shook my head, "no". He withdrew his hand from his sack and held it up to show that he had no weapon and backed away. I hate going to the state fair and parking off-site, but my girl always insists on doing stupid stuff like that. However, I don't think that guy nor I did anything wrong. We did not pull anything out and brandish. What we did was perfectly legal. I mean, for all you know, he was adjusting his package and I was opening a can of cola. I mean, it was concealed, right?

However, in fairness, the other guy should've de-escalated and said, "Whoa, easy there, pardner." I smiled and nodded to the man in the hoodie after he started to back away. I did that on purpose so that I wouldn't "dis" him and end up escalating things (as in he'll return with his "homies" in tow).

makarovnik

October 7, 2009, 05:14 AM

I personally find that I behave better since I started carrying. I don't want to loose my gun rights so put up with a lot more crap than I used to. Heaven help you if you ever have to use your gun.

Around here, carrying a gun in a bar is illegal.

bigfatdave

October 7, 2009, 05:57 AM

If it were me, I would immediately correct the misunderstanding by tipping my hat, smiling, and saying, "howdy."
I generally do the same, if someone is making me uncomfotrable, I'll look them right in the eye and say "hi there" with a big grin. The level of personal disturbment is proportional to the size of the grin, so if I'm really annoyed, the grin will be disturbingly large, it tends to send people away rapidly, which is generally the goal.
A look in the eye and making your awarness of their presence is generally adequate to defuse a potential situation like the OP got soo excited about.

bearmgc

October 7, 2009, 08:44 AM

Seems to be painting with a broad brush, if 2 suspicious encounters qualify for his assumption. Vigilance shouldn't equal paranoia. Those are two different states.

paul45

October 7, 2009, 10:45 AM

keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck.

Sorry, life does not work that way.

NMGonzo

October 7, 2009, 12:42 PM

I used to be rather vociferous while riding my bicycle to work, in particular with people yelling at me (mind you that I was riding within my legal rights and common sense), but that changed when I started carrying.

I could not give 4 shats.

Demitrios

October 7, 2009, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by SAM1911
Amazing how many people, even HERE, will toss out a line like, "Why, if you'd just DISARM yourself, everything would be fine!"

Originally posted by unloved
How about knives and drinking? Pens and drinking? Pool cues and drinking? Heavy glass beer mugs and drinking? Hands, elbows, knees, and feet and drinking? The world is full of objects that could be used as deadly weapons.

You know a lot of people here believe in the right to carry, including myself and my family. I also believe in others rights to carry. However what I'm seeing here is I'll exercise my rights over exercising discretion. Sam you say that I think people should disarm themselves and everything will be OK, what I'm saying is guns and alcohol do not mix. There are many reasons I say this, like how anti's jump all over the news immediately after a firearm incident occurs, even the most minute of circumstances. Your lack of discretion could essentially be the basis for a new law to be passed due to someone else's bias. So yeah, there are certain times you should disarm yourself.

Unloved you claim that the world is full of objects able to be used as weapons.
#1 I was a bouncer for almost 10 years, I have a pretty good idea about that concept.
#2 Many people on this forum are fond of the saying, "God created man, Colt made them equal.". Well your claim that the world is full of weapons so what does it matter who carries where is essentially the same thing as saying, "Well I've got a knife and he's got a gun so it's fair.". Are you going to stop carrying now because the world is full of improvised weapons?
#3 Anything that could impare your judgement coupled with something with a great responsibility like carrying a firearm do not mix, period. If it did then you probably other mind altering substances are alright to futz around with while carrying as well.
#4 I didn't say you can't go into a restaurant ad have a glass of wine while carrying, alcohol affects people differently based on weight, prior alcohol consumption and how long it takes to absorb into the body (i.e. people with full stomachs absorb alcohol slower).

The bottom line is we're allowed to carry, it's our right, but it's a right given to us based on the trust that we can exercise caution. Putting yourself in a place that serves primarily alcohol is the same as me going to a bar after an alcohol intervention and saying, "HEY GUYS! I'm just here to watch!". While there are exceptions they're few and far between and it's not a good idea.

unloved

October 7, 2009, 04:20 PM

...

I want to continue this discussion, but I don't think it belongs in this thread. I'm going to start a thread in General.

Sam1911

October 7, 2009, 05:08 PM

Demitrios deserves to have his points answered. But, especially as we JUST had a thread which covered these poinst well closed because it had strayed from the original topic, I agree with unloved.

Suffice it (for here) to say I disagree, almost point-for-point, and it takes quite a bit of willpower to not respond here, BUT...

Let's agree to drop the guns and alcohol topic here and take in up, IN EARNEST in another thread.

See you there!

-Sam

ferretray

October 11, 2009, 08:36 PM

I learned a long time ago that bars are frequented by quite a variety of folks, many that a person with good sense would not choose to be around.
Nothing good ever comes of hanging in those places.
I spent many years traveling the planet as a sailor and Marine, so I may have a little experience in such matters. You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

bluemailman53

October 11, 2009, 09:20 PM

In Tennessee you can carry in a bar. The kick is you can't have a drink while carrying.

Flintknapper

October 11, 2009, 09:33 PM

wild cat mccane wrote:

I didn't even give him more then a simple eye contact that portrayed only I see you looking, lets keep it civil and keep the looks above here neck. Simple look.

O.K., I think I understand it now. ;)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/Marty_Feldman.jpg

ThePants

October 11, 2009, 09:51 PM

I've spent a bit of time in a bar or two in my day and I've learned one important thing... The guy walking out of the bar tends to have a bit more booze in him and be a little more irrational, and the guy walking into the bar needs to let him just go on home and sleep it off before drawing conclusions (or anything else for that matter).

jdub3

October 11, 2009, 10:33 PM

I am amazed this non-event turned into such a long thread. OP- you are not certain that it was a gun, and even if it was, he never drew his weapon. What's the big deal? Why did this make you decide that CC'ers can be the worst people?

I just don't understand but maybe -

http://www.vkhaun.com/IMAGES/Successful%20Troll.jpg

Shadow 7D

October 11, 2009, 11:17 PM

Guy walks into bar and stares at other guys ... um crotch.

Other guy gives first guy the stink eye...

Concealed carryers are bad people.

That would be the same as saying that guy stare at crotches are gay
See problem solved, the poor drunk was just a homophobe....

ArchAngelCD

October 11, 2009, 11:58 PM

Wow, 5 pages and only 1 followup posts by the OP. (I think I smell a Troll)
I thought we all knew the rules people, Do Not Feed The Trolls! :D

wild cat mccane

October 12, 2009, 06:40 PM

Floppy_D

October 12, 2009, 06:48 PM

Ya shoulda started out with that article. That guy needs to be behind bars, ASAP.

manithree

October 12, 2009, 08:04 PM

Ya shoulda started out with that article. That guy needs to be behind bars, ASAP.

That story wasn't in the news until today (it happened Saturday 10 Oct).

The guy is behind bars: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8283058

Strangely enough his original post didn't generate any sympathy here (http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6544&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a), either.

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 13, 2009, 12:14 PM

Whoa; in your collective face, everyone who trolled this thread by calling the OP a troll.

wild cat mccane

October 13, 2009, 02:06 PM

I didn't need to start with that article.

I told my story. I don't need to tell others stories. Strangely I don't think I will get an apology to those who went off their moral high horse on me.

mgkdrgn

October 13, 2009, 06:21 PM

Double Naught Spy

October 13, 2009, 08:48 PM

Well here is my response.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13545198

This is where I live. This is near the area of where my original post came from. Concealed carrier. No I don't think we are bad people. I said can be.

Great response. It has nothing to do with your incident, but great response. So basically what you are saying now is that Utah CCW people can be the worst people?

I got the impression from your OP that the comment was reflexive.

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 13, 2009, 09:21 PM

$:| seriously double naught?

What are the odds that he makes up a complete fabrication about a belligerent CCW'er on the 4th, and then one matching the description in the original post gets pinched on the 10th???

Also, whenever I see dudes checking out my lady either I tell her "Hey, those dudes are checking you out" and start laughing to eachother, or I'll give them the traditional TX greeting nod.

Either way, I'm non-confrontational, and it's all good.

Seems like a good policy now if there's permit holders out there like the guy in OP.

meef

October 14, 2009, 01:10 AM

Whoa; in your collective face, everyone who trolled this thread by calling the OP a troll. Riiiight...... :rolleyes:

This thread has one of the silliest titles I've ever seen around here.

Good grief. The whole concept is so ridiculous it's almost laughable.

A guy has a (very) minor run-in with a couple of other guys.

Based on his perceptions he posts this thread. Give me a freaking break.

What if the guy who ogled his girlfriend had been walking using a cane? Would the thread have then been "Handicapped people can be the worst people."

What if the guy who ogled his girlfriend had been wearing his tool belt from working on his house? Would the thread have then been "Carpenters can be the worst people."

What if, etc., etc., ad nauseam?

In my opinion, five pages later this has either been one of the most recently successful trollings or.... well, forum rules prohibit me stating my other conclusion.

Geez....

:cool:

Gelgoog

October 14, 2009, 01:24 AM

wait maybe I read all this wrong. is the OP saying that the guy in the article is the same guy he ran into?

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 14, 2009, 10:40 AM

Riiiight......

This thread has one of the silliest titles I've ever seen around here.

Good grief. The whole concept is so ridiculous it's almost laughable.

A guy has a (very) minor run-in with a couple of other guys.

Based on his perceptions he posts this thread. Give me a freaking break.

What if the guy who ogled his girlfriend had been walking using a cane? Would the thread have then been "Handicapped people can be the worst people."

What if the guy who ogled his girlfriend had been wearing his tool belt from working on his house? Would the thread have then been "Carpenters can be the worst people."

What if, etc., etc., ad nauseam?

In my opinion, five pages later this has either been one of the most recently successful trollings or.... well, forum rules prohibit me stating my other conclusion.

Geez....

This is what five pages of thread have boiled down to:

A bunch of people feeling butthurt because they feel they've been grouped into a group such as "the worstpeople"

that's how I took it, Gelgoog, and I buy it.

steveracer

October 14, 2009, 01:01 PM

Wow.
I think you all need to be VERY nice to Wild Cat. He's a little fragile. Also, some of us live near him.

D!rty H@rry

October 14, 2009, 01:53 PM

i stopped reading after 1 1/2 pages.

a. possible troll

b. lots of peeps carrying now with the big surge in ownership that have no right/mindset/maturity or bizness carrying.

c. both

metallic

October 14, 2009, 02:57 PM

i stopped reading after 1 1/2 pages.

a. possible troll

b. lots of peeps carrying now with the big surge in ownership that have no right/mindset/maturity or bizness carrying.

c. both

Or d) he's easily offended

Unless the gun was actually drawn, this is a non-story.

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 14, 2009, 04:22 PM

Nice, projection, metallic.

What we have here is a large group of people ignoring an important story involving what not to do if confronted with a belligerent fellow CCWer.

I mean, at least be honest with yourselves, there is something to learn here, but everyone's so offended about being called "the worst people" that they're jumping on a "bash the OP" bandwagon.

rainbowbob

October 14, 2009, 06:23 PM

I mean, at least be honest with yourselves, there is something to learn here, but everyone's so offended about being called "the worst people" that they're jumping on a "bash the OP" bandwagon.

I'm always ready to learn something, which is why I frequent this forum.

I could not care less if someone lumps me in a group of "the worst people".

In fact, I could not care less if someone calls me me names or otherwise disparages me personally to my face. My self-esteem just isn't that fragile.

So tell us...

What is the "important story" - and what lesson is there to be learned?

I'm not interested in bashing the OP. It's just that I believe he grossly over-reacted to another man eye-balling his chick, and made assumptions about the other's evil intent based on a firearm he never saw.

As metallic wrote: A non-story - EXCEPT - I think the OP could learn something from many of the responses if he is willing to open his mind and consider that HIS reaction and behavior was out of line in the "incident" described.

texas bulldog

October 14, 2009, 07:12 PM

why should we assume it's the same person? the OP hasn't said as much.

meef

October 14, 2009, 10:33 PM

This is what five pages of thread have boiled down to:

A bunch of people feeling butthurt because they feel they've been grouped into a group such as "the worstpeople":rolleyes:

Butthurt?

You crack me up. Honest, you do.

Aside from that, you miss the point.

:D:D:D

Bluenote

October 14, 2009, 11:36 PM

Quit looking at everyone's pockets and below their waists. That is just CREEPY!
As far as I read, the OP has placed himself in the "Concealed carriers can be the worst people" category with his behavior toward a perfect stranger who passed by him and happened to look at a (hopefully) pretty girl.
I guess playing music in bars for the past three decades has made me somewhat immune to guys "checking out my lady". She's a grown woman and takes care of herself when I am playing and she is in the club.
Frankly, my wife would be ticked off if no one checked her out...most women would be (whether they care to admit it or not). Women do not get all dressed up to NOT be noticed....Duh.
The fashion industry would shut down if women didn't want to be looked at and "checked out" ........ Men as well!
Gotta agree with the above , at times I've tended bar for a living ,in Houston I was going with a girl that was a Houston Oilers cheerleader ( yeah yeah I just marked myself as old fart now) , it was relatively speaking hilarious watching the guys checking her out when she came into the bar to see me , and my attitude was along of the lines of " drool all you want , but she's going home with ME " (chuckle chuckle).

As far as the O.P. goes , perhaps responses *were* a bit harsh , but then he *did* title the thread with a heading that could be contrued to be controversial , and perhaps just perhaps he should examine his own insecurities as regards his girlfriend.

Folks are going to look , and I can tell you from long experience working in clubs it's not just the guys looking , women look too. And I'd infinitely rather have to break up a row between two 300 lb men than have to attempt to break up one between two 100 lb women because one looked at anothers 'boyfriend' , those damn fingernails can hurt ,don't ask how I know that one.

And it really sounds like it was all just the proverbial tempest in a teapot between the equivalent of two banty roosters anyway.

Bluenote

October 14, 2009, 11:51 PM

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 15, 2009, 12:45 PM

So tell us...

What is the "important story" - and what lesson is there to be learned?

I'm not interested in bashing the OP. It's just that I believe he grossly over-reacted to another man eye-balling his chick, and made assumptions about the other's evil intent based on a firearm he never saw.

As metallic wrote: A non-story - EXCEPT - I think the OP could learn something from many of the responses if he is willing to open his mind and consider that HIS reaction and behavior was out of line in the "incident" described.

The lesson is this:

Be curteous to everyone, because some CCW having moron with a chip on his shoulder could pull his gun on you if you look at him the wrong way.

X-Rap

October 15, 2009, 12:55 PM

Why is there some assumption that the guy in question has a CCW or is even packing a gun?
I guess that I am one that believes we should not need some paper from the gov. to carry and defend ourselves anyway.
We will encounter a holes no matter what or where, the fact they have permits for something is irrelevant. I also believe self examination might show that we need to tone our own actions down when we carry a weapon.

rainbowbob

October 15, 2009, 02:34 PM

The lesson is this:

Be curteous to everyone, because some CCW having moron with a chip on his shoulder could pull his gun on you if you look at him the wrong way.

Well...that's fine advice, David. I just don't know how you derived that "lesson" from this "important" non-story in which a gun never appeared.

I would add that you should be courteous to everyone because it's the right thing to do, and because you might get punched in the face for giving someone the stink-eye or otherwise disrespecting them. If you're CCW, and you provoke someone to punch you, you could have a real problem if you escalate from there with a firearm.

But again...these lessons are not evident in the story or subsequent posts from the OP.

justashooter in pa

October 15, 2009, 03:15 PM

hey wild cat,

so you're 25 and have a hot girlfriend. marry her now.

i'm one of those 45 year old guys who carries a gun into bars. i have a 27 year old asian wife that goes 105 pounds and has a porno rack and likes to show it off. she gets looked at all the time. i deliberately never notice other guys looking at her, and never comment when the hit on her. she dances with me and goes home with me, and that's all that matters.

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 15, 2009, 03:44 PM

Well...that's fine advice, David. I just don't know how you derived that "lesson" from this "important" non-story in which a gun never appeared.

I would add that you should be courteous to everyone because it's the right thing to do, and because you might get punched in the face for giving someone the stink-eye or otherwise disrespecting them. If you're CCW, and you provoke someone to punch you, you could have a real problem if you escalate from there with a firearm.

But again...these lessons are not evident in the story or subsequent posts from the OP.

I used that chunk of grey stuff between my ears to come to that conclusion, rainbowbob.

Story isn't about ccw having person vs. non ccw having person, rainbowbob.

It's about average ccw having person vs. belligerent ccw having person, rainbowbob.

It's an entirely different dynamic, rainbowbob. :)

The fact is that someone displayed what the OP perceived to be aggressive behavior (in any other thread, the two guys would've been "casing" the couple.)

OP should have stopped sharing macho stares with the guy at this point.

The other guy then suddenly reached into his pocket (in any other thread, this would have been declared " ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG Code Orange! reaching for a knife / weapon"

All of the people whining and crying troll should go to the "It happened to me" thread. There's a ton of stories in there that makes the OP ofthis thread look like a hero.

rainbowbob

October 15, 2009, 04:47 PM

...someone displayed what the OP perceived to be aggressive behavior...

Just because the OP "perceived" something, doesn't make it real.

The other guy then suddenly reached into his pocket (in any other thread, this would have been declared..."Code Orange"!

This might be construed as defensive behavior. But - as you say - that's an "entirely different dynamic".

OP should have stopped sharing macho stares with the guy at this point.

I certainly agree with you on that point, David.

I'll go you one further and reiterate that the OP shouldn't have been trading macho stares in the first place.

By-the-way...I boldface the username of the person who's comments I am addressing so that they will more likely see it and respond - as you did.

Thanks for playing. ;)

DAVIDSDIVAD

October 15, 2009, 05:41 PM

I'll grant you that, bob; the OP's perception is a unique thing

I gathered that, I was just trying to make a small joke (hence smiley face.)
;)

I also agree...

I think it's fair to say that both sides of the coin are a llittle right in this case.

The OP could've avoided both theoretical situations, one with no consequences, and one with deadly consequences, if he'd just kept a cool head and minded his own business

wild cat mccane

October 15, 2009, 09:23 PM

I am curious.

Since everyone has said it is impossible that I knew it was a gun...

Does anyone here have situations where they have marked a concealed?

SO why is that even being quesitoned?

he was wearing light levis. Light is the worst for printing.

They were tight. Worst for printing.

I really am amazed that it is so hard to believe that we all couldn't make out an outline of an auto...:scrutiny:

rainbowbob

October 15, 2009, 10:29 PM

mccane:

It is possible (perhaps even likely) that your perception of what you thought was a gun was an accurate one.

The point is that regardless of whether or not you were certain he had a gun in his pocket - it was never drawn or otherwise used offensively.

He may have been reacting defensively in preparation for what he perceived as threatening behavior from you.

You see how perceptions are in the eye of the beholder?

Had you not over-reacted to his non-threatening (although perhaps rude) behavior in the first place, this would even be less of a story than it is (if that is possible).

As far as I can see the only lesson to be learned here is the one that has been offered repeatedly:

Don't engage in behavior that may be perceived by others as threatening, challenging, or disrespectful.

Both parties to this incident are guilty of one or the other of those transgressions. We're criticizing you because you posted the story, and you are at least 50% to blame for the confrontation.

Let's imagine for a moment that the other guy had posted a story about how he was ogling a beautiful chick in a bar, and her boyfriend stopped and stared at him threateningly, so he put his hand on his pocket pistol just in case the boyfriend made a move to attack him.

We'd be criticizing him for rude behavior and telling him that if he's going to CCW, he needs to be more respectful and circumspect in his behavior.

You have to be more patient, more forgiving, and slower to take offense than most every one else if you are going to take on the responsibility of CCW.

As soon as you acknowledge that concept, we can put this thread to bed.

Autolycus

October 15, 2009, 11:16 PM

Why would we get all up in arms when the polcie stop people from open carrying? They don't know if they are law abiding or not, but we assume that these guys are not? I am sorry but the OP was right to be nervous.

meef

October 16, 2009, 10:43 AM

wild cat mccane

October 16, 2009, 02:18 PM

He pointed out that there is inconstancy in the people attacking me.

1. people got mad at my title

2. they attacked me because of the title and assumed I shouldn't be angry that I clearly saw a gun grab his gun while stopping and looking at me.

I said I was unarmed. So his gripping a pistol is not justified. A legally defined 'reasonable person' should not be threatened of life and limb by a young guy with 3 girls near him...WHO WAS UNARMED. he was armed. it was obvious. Though not obvious, I was not.

EdLaver

October 16, 2009, 02:54 PM

I have to somewhat agree with the OP, I remember when I took my CCW class there were 17 people and IMO it looked like only 5 of us were mature, intelligent, and responsible enough to be getting a license to carry a firearm. But I guess you cant descriminate, b/c if so, alot of people wouldnt have driver's licenses either. LOL

rainbowbob

October 16, 2009, 03:08 PM

mccane:

1. I didn't get mad at your title. I sincerely don't care about derogatory epithets that don't apply to me. I don't even give a north-bound rat's south end if someone calls me a derogatory name to my face. My self esteem is not based on the opinions of strangers.

2. I didn't attack you (and neither did the guy in your story). I merely pointed out that your behavior was a contributing factor in a "confrontation" in which no firearm was drawn, there was no violence of any kind, and no verbal threats were exchanged.

You say because you were unarmed, there was no justification for him to prepare for a possible assault from you. Even though by your own description, you were looking at him with the intention of intimidating him to change his behavior.

You further assert that a "reasonable person" need not feel threatened by a young guy who was unarmed.

How does he know you aren't armed?

How does he know you aren't about to deliver a potentially fatal sucker punch to the head?

A "reasonable person" would likely conclude an "unarmed" man was justifiably shot if he wrongfully assaulted the shooter with his fists, boots, etc.

I have been in the position where a belligerent young guy was challenging me verbally while coming directly at me.

I had no idea if he was armed - and didn't care. He presented a potentially lethal threat regardless.

Be assured that my body was bladed, my left hand was up, and my right hand was on my pocket pistol. He never saw the firearm - but I think he got the idea.

You should learn that you can't change the behavior of anyone but yourself.

You CAN make the choice - as I did after the incident I just described - to refrain from correcting the rude behavior of others in public.

I will attempt one more time to convince you that your behavior (as described by you) was meant to be intimidating. You were successful. The fellow apparently felt intimidated enough to put his hand on his gun in case you took your intimidating behavior to another level.

So no - you should NOT be angry that he did what most folks would do if they felt they were at risk of a possible assault.

Learn it here - or perhaps learn it on the streets the hard way.

It's up to you.

gglass

October 17, 2009, 11:23 AM

RainbowBob,

+ 1,000,000,000 For a lifetime of mature advice given in a few short paragraphs. If only the OP were mature enough to listen.

Snakum

October 17, 2009, 11:44 AM

Personally, I am proud when I have a girl that every guy wants to "eye-ball".

+1

I don't pull into restaraunts where there are no other cars. And I don't travel with women that other guys don't care to look at. You should be proud - as long as he is only looking.

If you eye-f@#$&* a guy hard enough that almost pulled on you, just for looking at your woman, you may want to take a long hard look at yourself. You may need to grow up a tad.

101

October 17, 2009, 01:13 PM

The person that started this post also seems to stare at people alot with a dirty look. No wonder they drew their guns! I would get pissed if someone was giving me the look.

SwampWolf

October 17, 2009, 03:33 PM

I'd recommend people reread rainbowbob and Armed Bear's takes on the op's "problem". He made his own "problem" with a juvenile "stare", apparently intended to give the guy eyeballing his babe a message-"Hands (eyes) off! She's my property." It's clear to me that the op should not be carrying a weapon until he grows up a little.

metallic

October 17, 2009, 05:14 PM

Can't really say that I disagree with anything that rainbowbob has said in this thread. If you carry a weapon, you owe it to yourself to check your ego at the door when you leave in the morning. This applies if you are carrying that day or not.

meef

October 17, 2009, 11:33 PM

Never mind....

medmo

October 18, 2009, 03:06 AM

If you have a problem with someone looking at your pretty girl friend than you should trade her for one that isn't so pretty. You can't be 100% certain that this person actually had a weapon concealed on them or if they did they were legally permitted to carry it concealed. I wonder if you would be so quick to "eye-fornicate" a couple of guys coming out of a bar if you weren't carrying concealed. It's a good idea to avoid troubles and altercations regardless if you are armed or not. It's a great idea to stay out of bars.

easyg

October 19, 2009, 03:00 PM

Okay, clearly I missed some information that made people wonder why I pissed off a guy that was wearing tighter jeans, had a obvious compact auto in his pocket, and I clearly need to clean up how I glanced quickly at a guy that that stared at my girlfriend for about 20 seconds, also doing it when we were walking away.

I am not a cave man. I am aware of the male/male competition and that smoking girls get looked at. Yet we are civilized are we not?

So cliff notes for those that think I did something wrong that made someone grab a gun in their pocket.

A. Utah.
B. 2 40-50 year old men. I am 25. My girlfriend of 5 years is 24.
C. i glanced at him after they walked past. at this point he should have had his back to us, but instead was being such a jerk he was staring right back body facing OUR BACKS
D. for about a 25 yards away I could make out a compact auto in his tighter jeans.
E. I understand pocket carry is a tactical advantage. I carry mine this way. But am I threatening when I walking into a bar with my girlfriend?
F. No, I was not carrying, so no, he did not assume I was carrying too.
G. When I said he grabbed his gun, I mean to say he stuck his hand into the pocket that clearly had the gun, grabbed the clear handle of that gun, and held it there like he was going to draw it on me.

I am totally taken aback from some responses.

2. they attacked me because of the title and assumed I shouldn't be angry that I clearly saw a gun grab his gun while stopping and looking at me.

I said I was unarmed. So his gripping a pistol is not justified. A legally defined 'reasonable person' should not be threatened of life and limb by a young guy with 3 girls near him...WHO WAS UNARMED. he was armed. it was obvious. Though not obvious, I was not.

It might not have occurred to you, but those two guys in their 40's might have been plainclothes police officers, and maybe they were checking you out for different reasons than you thought.
You or your "lady" might resemble someone that they were looking for.

101

October 19, 2009, 05:31 PM

Conclusion- If you give people the stink eye, you should expect to get your teeth knocked out!

2075 RAMI

October 20, 2009, 10:39 PM

Alright, I'll chime in. :neener: More than likely, this was a drunk low-life not legally allowed to carry. I would say his courage came from the bottle. This is why I do not frequent bars. :rolleyes:

I've only carried for two years now, and I've never noticed anyone carrying.

Colt Smith

October 20, 2009, 11:14 PM

Pile on! ROTFL! I guess the OP is getting a bit of a shellacking here. You know, the poster probably did read the dude right. He was probably packin' and who's to say whether it was legal or not without more details. The fact is some people do walk around like bad asses because they have a gun. The law of averages says there are gonna be jerks in every segment of society. But you take it on a case-by-case basis. To label concealed carriers, who statistically have proven to be some of the most responsible citizens (and friendliest by the way) "the worst people" is just ignorant and reckless. I have met a cop or two who were certifiable jerks. Should I go around saying that cops are all jerks? Um, no. Relax a bit. I'm not making excuses for the other guy but pick your fights more wisely.