[kingpin008]

Howdy folks - I was just at the local pawn shop shipping out a pistol to a friend of mine in NJ, and I happened to spy a pretty nice pump action on their rack.

Upon a quick inspection, I found out it was a Mod. 12, in pretty dang nice condition. (to my admittedly untrained eye)

I -really- like this shotgun. I am totally new to shotguns, so this would be my first. They're asking $450, is that a fair price? I didn't get a good look at the serial number, but the first two digits were either 82 or 83. Any info you fine folks could pass along would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[chas08]

Your best bet would be to get on Gunbroker or one of the other gun sales sites and look at several Model 12's and compare what your looking at to those in similar condition, configuration, gauge, choke restriction,...etc...There are a lot of different types of Model 12's that range from very pricey to not so much. Around here a 12ga field model in fair to good shape can go for $350 - $550. I own two a 16 and a 12, they are great guns, and last like an anvil, though they are not my first choice in pumps. That spot goes to my 11 year old Remington 870 Express. By the list I have, a start of the serial # of 82 put its date of manufacture at 1940.

[highorder]

When talking Model 12 serial numbers, the number of digits will tell you a bit more. The made around two million of them.

http://www.mchenry-sc.org/Engineering/Model_12.htm

82xx?
82,xxx?
82x,xxx?

Around here, you will see them for $400 to $700 in fair to good condition.

The Model 12 is a classy pump, referred to as "The Perfect Repeater" in old product literature. :)

Note the barrel length, choke, and % of finish remaining...

Do the serial numbers match?

[chas08]

When talking Model 12 serial numbers, the number of digits will tell you a bit more.
High order is correct. the number of digits after the 82 or 83 would narrow it down. I assumed it would probably be 82X,XXX for 1940. It could have also been 8,2XX for 1913 or 82,XXX for 1915. There are a lot more out there circulating from the 40's than the teens. If it were one of the older ones in exceptional shape it could be more valuable. And as he also stated there will be two sets of serial #'s on it. One on the reciever and one on the magazine tube/barrel assy. They should be the same if the gun is as it was assembed originally. If not, the value suffers considerably.

[kingpin008]

Thanks for the tips, fellas. Honestly, I can't afford this shotgun (unless the let me put it on super-duper layaway, hah) but I might have to go back tomorrow to have another look. If/when I do, I'll make sure to take a better look and write down the serials and report back.

[chas08]

I'll make sure to take a better look and write down the serials and report back.
If you do. Don't post the entire serial #. Leave the last two digits as XX. I helps to keep folks honest.

[kingpin008]

Eh, I see no problem with posting the entire SN. For one, I don't even own it yet, so it's not my problem.

If by some stroke of financial luck I am able to own it, I'll have all the legal paperwork proving that it was bought fair and square, so if someone wants to snag the SN off here and try to play games, they're welcome to try.

Thanks for the concern though.

[rcmodel]

Try this:

http://oldguns.net/sn_php/windateslookup.php?file=win1912.dat

rc

[kingpin008]

That's fantastic. Thank you, kind sir. :D

Oh, and before I forget, I have a question about chokes.

What should I be looking for? How do I check?

And I guess in general, if someone could give me a super-basic run through of what I need to be looking for when I go to check this thing out that would be great. As I mentioned earlier, externally it looks pretty sweet, but I didn't get a chance to cycle/function check it (mostly because I have no idea how) and check the internals. I certainly can't afford to plunk down that kind of cash for a broken or poorly-functioning gun.

[rcmodel]

The choke will be marked right on the left side of the barrel near the receiver.
Unless the barrel has been cut off, it will be whatever it says it is.
Very likely Full, or Modified if you are lucky.

Model 12's are all take-down, and can develop loose joints to where the barrel and receiver are not solidly joined.

There is a take-up adjustment on the barrel extension, but they eventually run out of adjustment.

At some point, they will get so loose a new headspace ring and a few other things have to be installed by a gunsmith to tighten them.

Most hunting guns never see enough use to wear out the interrupted threads on the take-down device, so are probably going to be O.K. with further adjustment left.
But beware of old trap & skeet guns as they fired more rounds in a month then a hunting gun in a lifetime.

The other thing is, don't dry-fire it.
The youngest Model 12 is nearly 40 years old, and the oldest is nearing 100!

The other other thing is:
The action release depends on recoil to release it.
If you want to open the action without firing it, push the action release on the trigger-guard, then push foreword on the slide until it clicks.
That will release the inertia action lock so you can pull it back.

rc

[kingpin008]

Good to know. Thank you, RC. :D

[Joebagadonuts]

I have a Winchester Model 12 my Dad gave me 55 +/- years ago. He bought back in the Great Depression, and told me he paid $25 for it. The serial numbers are stamped on the barrel and receiver and are the same...413067. It has a case that has some wear which is natural as it is the same age as the shotgun.

The weapon is in pretty good shape with minor blemishes in the bluing. The barrel is clean as a whistle as my Dad taught me to keep it clean. The case contains a 3 piece wood ramrod and a small metal container with various ends for cleaning the barrel.

I seem to remember Dad saying it was a "duck gun" and it does have a full choke. I do remember I could hit a rabbit a mile a way, but had to be dead on at short range, indicating the pattern was pretty small close up.

I'm looking for some reputable place to get it "overhauled" (I'm a car kinda guy) as well as the case, which has some broken and missing straps, plus the stitching needs to be redone.

Is there any reputable place, that I might turn to? Does Winchester itself offer a refurbishing service? Also was the case made by Winchester? I can't find any name or identification on it.

Thanks in advance for any information.

If it would be any help, I can take some pictures and post them here.

[rcmodel]

Simmons Guns is one of the country's leading Model 12 specialists.

They ain't cheap, but they do excellent work.

http://www.simmonsguns.com/

As for the case repair?
I don't have a clue, but a good upholstery shop might be able to do something with it.

If it isn't marked, it isn't a Winchester case.

rc

[Joebagadonuts]

Thanks for the info...there is some sort of oval metal plate on the side of the case but it has nothing on it.

I hadn't thought about an upholstery shop...I looked for shoe repair shops, and there don't seem to be any left.

Just for my own edification, what would a gun like that sell for? Curious since I know what Dad bought it for.

[highorder]

Welcome Joe!

See post #2:

Your best bet would be to get on Gunbroker or one of the other gun sales sites and look at several Model 12's and compare what your looking at to those in similar condition, configuration, gauge, choke restriction,...etc...There are a lot of different types of Model 12's that range from very pricey to not so much. Around here a 12ga field model in fair to good shape can go for $350 - $550.

[Offfhand]

RC?
"The other other thing is:
The action release depends on recoil to release it."

Check this out and get back to us.

[rcmodel]

Not sure I understand your post?

The model 12 requires recoil & inertia of the slide, or a slight foreward movement of the forearm after the slide release button is pushed if not fired to release the slide if it's working properly.

rc

[SmokeyVol]

My Model 12 (1953 vintage) requires no recoil or forward action to release. If your raise the muzzle to vertical and press the slide release button, the action releases and falls fully open. I have owned several and they are all the same.

[Offfhand]

RC, only trying to help you. The simple fact is that the action of a M-12 is locked when the gun is in closed and cocked (unfired) position. But when the hammer is in forward ( as in fired) position the action is unlocked and slide can be activated. Simply pulling the trigger (as when firing a shell, or with the gun unloaded) unlocks the bolt and action (slide) can be opened. With the action closed and locked when pulling the trigger it is necessary to move the slide very slightly forward to unlock the action. (Do this with unloaded M-12 and you'll understand.)This motion is is usually incorporated (Hidden) in recoil of live firing and may be the source of your confusion. But, if you press the slide forward when pulling trigger (Unloaded) you'll discover the action is instantly unlocked. It is mecahanical and has NOTHING to do with inertia. Or, as Smokey points out, the action can also be opened by pressing the action release tab, which is the best way with unloaded gun.

[Toonces]

Offhand, you said almost exactly the same thing as RC. There is an "or" in post #17 that it appears you missed.

SmokeVol, watch the slide when you press the slide release. I suspect it is just like my Browning designed Stevens 520, and the slide moves forward when the slide release is pushed. Most Model 12s will require you to push on the slide to open the action. I've looked at several dozen of them in the past few years, and none of them would fall open when pushing the slide release, and only a couple of them would fall open after the requisite jiggling of the slide (all well used with questionable cleanliness on the racks at Cabela's/Gander Mountain). To put it differently, if you are pulling back on the slide, and then try to push the slide release, you won't be able to open the action.

[NWCP]

I own 2 model 12s. One is in 12GA ('36) modified choke and the other in 20GA ('33) full choke. They are really well made pump action shotguns. The shotgun you're looking at doesn't sound out of line depending on the gauge and condition. I inherited mine so the price was right. :D The 20GA is my favorite. It belonged to my dad. My grandfather's Mod 12 is a 12GA. For as many shells they put through their shotguns both are in pretty good shape. My grandpa helped feed the family with his 12GA. Times were hard for them so he took his shotgun to work with him every day and would bag rabbit, or birds with it on the way home for dinner. They have a really nice balance and the actions are very smooth. Enjoy.

[Offfhand]

I have a couple of M-12's in my collection and after reading above posts I did a quick test with both. Held vertically and pressing unlock tab, the newer one of the two opens about 2/3 way by itself. The other, an older Trap model with many thousands of rounds thru it, remains closed, requiring slight hand pressure to open. Which goes to show, once again, that each gun, regardless of make, model, gauge, caliber, tends to have its own particular quirks and characteristics.

[Steve C]

Used model 12's where selling for $300 to $400 in the late 70's and early 80's. The Federally mandated use of non lead shot for waterfowl hunting killed off much of the demand for these fine pump shotguns as they don't handle steel shot. My first shotgun was a used Model 12 with 28" barrel and modified choke my dad bought for me as a christmas gift in '74. I still own that gun and hunt dove an quail with it on the few occasions where I get out to hunt any more.

I own a couple Remington 870's an Ithica M37 and a Savage Fox SXS. Of the pumps the Model 12 IMO is a better gun than either the Remington or the Ithica.

[dusty]

I have two Winchester Model 12s that I would like to know something about.

One is a Model 12 20 gauge, s/n 387803. The barrel is marked 2 3/4 MOD. Based on what I believe I know, it has been in the family since sometime in the 1920s. Does that seem reasonable.

The other is a Model 12 12 gauge, s/n 495779. The barrel is marked 2 3/4 Chamber Full. This one was my great grand fathers and I believe it too dates to the 1920s but I am not certain.

What does the barrel markings tell me that is significant?

The 12 gauge appears to have a new barrel or a newly blued barrel. Does this detract from its value?

There is a ribbing down the top of the 12 ga barrel (the sight line). The 20 ga does not have this. What is the ribbed platform for?

The barrel markings - Chamber Full and Mod, what do these mean?

Is there any significant value attached to these weapons?

[rcmodel]

The 20 ga dates to 1924.
The 12 ga to 1927.

2 3/4" is the chamber length, and is the normal length for standard shells today.

Full = Full choke = Very tight pattern for longer range.
Mod = Modified choke = About halfway between the full choke, and no choke at all. A good all around choke for a 20 ga.

Factory original condition always brings more money as opposed to a re-blue.

Vent rib will be worth more then a standard barrel.

Model 12's still command good prices, but a lot depends on the condition.
Suggest you look on Auctionarms.com & Gunbroker.com for similar condition guns and see what they are going for.

rc

[dusty]

Thank you very much for your quick and detailed response.

The perceived value for these two shot guns is really immaterial as I do not intend to ever sell them. They have been in the family for a very long time. I suspect since the guns were new.

Thanks again.

[SmokeyVol]

The Model 12 does not have an interia release like some O/U sotguns. I checked and with muzzle pointed up, the action opens quickly and fully with a press of the release button. There is no hanging or touching of the forearm required. I remember my dad once told me that's the sign of a well broken in and maintained Model 12.

[highorder]

The Model 12 does not have an interia release like some O/U sotguns. I checked and with muzzle pointed up, the action opens quickly and fully with a press of the release button. There is no hanging or touching of the forearm required.

Yes it does.

Chamber a snapcap and pull the trigger. The action is locked until inertia moves the slide.

The release is a different story.

[rcmodel]

does not have an interia release like some O/U sotguns.O&U shotgugs do not have inertia releases either.

What some of them have is an inertia trigger that requires recoil to set the second barrel before it will fire.

And highorder is quite correct about the Model 12.
When the hammer drops on an empty chamber, it has an inertia release activated by pushing the forearm foreward slightly.
Or it is broken or worn out.

rc

[SmokeyVol]

No, I beg to differ. I just confirmed the actrion on my Model 12.

The Model 12 does not have an intertia trigger. It has a mechanical release that disengages the action after the trigger is pulled when cocked, but it does not require recoil to relese the action. This functions with a snapcap or by dry firing (not recommended on this model). I have owned three and they all function exactly the same.

[win71]

Model 12's are all take-down,

There were solid frames produced.

History

The Model 12 was designed by Winchester employee Thomas Crossly Johnson, and was based in large part on a design by John Browning.
Produced from 1912 to 1963, and as limited Custom Shop guns through 2006. Almost 2,000,000 were made
Gun made in “Take-Down” and solid frame versions, but the vast majority were take-down
Started to lose sales to the Remington 870 in the 1950’s because the Remington was perceived to be almost as good and was less expensive
Gun was fairly expensive to make, certainly more so than the Remington and Savage pump offerings, and gun was discontinued in the “Great 1964 Winchester Debacle”
Gun feels good, looks good, and is very reliable