[unterseeboot]

I just made an impulse purchase of a brand new Wilson Combat Border Patrol 870 shotgun while stopping into an out-of-town gun shop to buy ammo for my revolver and to ask some questions about shotguns. I have been in the market for a home defense shotgun and doing web research for a few months and I had pretty much decided on the Remington 870 Police but when I handled this Wilson shotgun I got caught up in the moment and the next thing I knew I was walking out the door with it and I was $1,215 (plus tax) poorer. After thinking about it later I got serious buyer's remorse because I am afraid that all I really got was a Remington Express with a few extra bells and whistles that I could have put together for a lot less than $1,200. It came with an adjustable Knoxx stock, ghost ring sights, soft case, tactical sling, extended magazine and a six round sidesaddle shell carrier (but no tac light). Can somebody tell me what it is that I bought that makes it worth all that extra money? I realize that I didn't get any great deal and that I should have done more research before buying it, but can someone at least make me feel better by telling me that I didn't get played for a total sucker? Thanks!

[wyohome]

but can someone at least make me feel better by telling me that I didn't get played for a total sucker? Thanks!

Nope

[wheelgunslinger]

Well, for the rest of your life you'll remember this deal and it'll make you a much smarter consumer.
Some people get taken for thousands. You got off pretty cheap and got a nice shotgun out of the deal.
That ain't so bad. :)

[RevolvingGarbage]

Nah, you did fine, I mean you did pay $1200 for a shotgun that's really no more or less effective than one that costs $250 NIB, but hey, as long as you like it...

[Youngster]

Let's put it this way, I've got a lot less money in my custom 870 and I thought that was too much. Still, you've got a nice gun and there are far worse things to spend too much money on.

[Fred Fuller]

I got serious buyer's remorse

I think you pretty well answered your own question. I wish you'd asked here first... and I hope you feel better anyway.

lpl

[buck460XVR]

I hope they at least took you out for dinner and drinks before they scr@#ed you.

[jobu07]

Post some pics and take pride in your new 870. You may have paid more than it is worth, but if it is worth it to you all is well.

Take it out and shoot it a little - you might feel less remorse that way too!

[Gunfighter123]

Well , ANYTHING by Bill Wilson is Top Shelf --- But ,OUCH !!!

[ArmedBear]

Is it Parkerized?

Is it based on a Police model?

If so, the basic gun on which it's based is a lot more expensive than an 870 Express. The basic 870P with a short magazine, basic wood stock, plain cylinder barrel with a bead and nothing else is $500 on the street.

Also, what other stuff is in it? Does it have upgraded internals, like an aluminum follower and other such stuff? Choke tubes? Sights? All that does add up.

I mean, it may not have been a killer deal, but if you really look at the details, it might not be such a bad one, either, if you want all the stuff.

[chevyforlife21]

i feel sorry for you. its not even hard to put extras on a basic 870. you could of made that gun your self for 600 bucks.

[Two Cold Soakers]

You paid the market price (well, msrp) for a custom shotgun.
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/currentpricing.asp#shotguns

I've shot and lusted over Wilson handguns, and if they can do with the 870 what they've done with the 1911, you've bought a fine weapon.

edit to add. BTW, guys, this isn't an off the shelf 870 with a bunch of Bass Pro Bolt on Crap. Wilson makes a fine product.

[chevyforlife21]

the only part of the wilson thats even has a point is the extended mag,and does it have an oversized safety and metal follower?

[Girodin]

The Wilson combat guns are nice. They are not simply the equivalent of a $250. Is there a premium in there for the name? Yes a big premium, like a Polo shirt. One could put together a gun that is the functional equivalent of that model for much less but the Wilson is a good gun and probably holds value better than a one off build. I personally wouldn't buy one for that money but its not like you got a piece of junk.

It has an improved follower, a jumbo safety. I guess a side saddle doesn't have a point if you never reload your gun (or you simply prop it up in the corner and never shoot or use it). If it has the armor tuff finish that is a nice finish 10x better than the express finish. It is much more durable than the poor factory finish on the express. I guess there is no point if you don't mind rust. GR have a point. They are superior to a bead for shooting slugs. Because the way you use (or don't use) a shotgun doesn't require a piece of equipment doesn't mean it doesn't have a point.

[f4t9r]

Wilson makes very good stuff. Enjoy the gun and don't look back !!!!!

[shiftyer1]

someone within the last couple months sent an 870 somewhere and had some upgrades put into the gun and posted the specifics on this forum. Iirc they had 1200 or more in the gun. Personally I didn't see the point BUT it was his gun. It may have been wilson, or maybe nighthawk, I don't remember. If yours is similar to what he had done it might be the going rate.

[snooperman]

Yes you could have spent less , but you obviously like it. Now go out and shoot it and really enjoy that excellent home defense gun. I have seen them and I like them too.

[ArmedBear]

You also have to understand that the law of diminishing returns applies to shotguns in spades.

Remington, Mossberg, and Benelli have pretty much perfected the art of manufacturing a very functional pump gun for $200-400 retail. To do so, they make use of parts that are just good enough, made of plastic or metal formed through cheap processes.

Mossberg's 500, for example, has a plastic safety. That's no big deal for duck hunting, but the military version, the 590, uses steel. The 500 is a really great value; the 590 is pretty significantly more expensive.

If you get something like a Wilson Combat gun, they go through and replace the parts that are "just good enough" with low-volume custom parts that are a lot more expensive. They refinish the gun in a superior coating that costs a lot more than the standard gun's finish. In short, they go back over the gun and re-do everything that's been manufactured to a price point.

Hence, they make the gun a LOT more expensive, but they also fix flaws, and things that aren't reallly flaws but could be improved.

$1200 isn't all that much for a shotgun that isn't built primarily to be cheap. You could easily spend $12,000 on a shotgun, or $120,000 for that matter.:)

A functional shotgun can be made cheaply with modern methods, but a REALLY NICE shotgun still costs as much as it ever did.

[Scoupe]

Take it out and get very familiar with it. Shoot it a lot. Then go borrow someone's 870 Express and shoot it a bit. You WILL tell the difference. Maybe you didn't need it. Maybe you could have built one a little cheaper. But you got a good gun, a very good gun. Don't despair.

[unterseeboot]

Yes, it does have the Armor-Tuff finish. I was told by the guy at the gun store where I bought it that it was "blued" but then I read somewhere on the Wilson Combat site that they "parkarize all carbon steel barrels and then apply the Armor-Tuff finish". I think the 870 express barrels Wilson uses are carbon steel and thus my Wilson Combat Border Patrol 870 shotgun is "parkarized" and then "Armor-Tuffed", but please correct me if this is not right. Yes, it does have the jumbo-sized safety and a "ghost ring rear sight paired with a ramp-type front sight with a tritium self-luminous insert". It has an "improved follower", but in answer to chevyforlife21 it does not appear to be metal. It looks like yellow plastic.

[unterseeboot]

OK, correction, the follower is NOT yellow but it is definitely not metal. I am sort of color challenged. It is flourescent green and made out of ABS nylon by Wilson Combat / Scattergun Technologies. Still looks yellow to me, but I can see it well regardless.

http://www.rem870.com/2009/08/11/remington-870-follower-overview-and-alternatives-choate-scattergun-technologies-original-stainless-vang/

[unterseeboot]

Can anyone tell me anything, good or bad, about this "Armor-Tuff" finish I got on this shotgun? Was the receiver parkarized first and then coated with Wilson Combat's "Armor-Tuff"? Was the coating just applied on top of the stock 870 Express surface? Does anyone know exactly what "improvements" go into this gun aside from the obvious changes to the 870 Express stock and sights? Is the trigger guard aluminum? I can't tell and the Wilson Combat website doesn't give much information on the specific changes that were made.

[hub]

Best I can do for you using a ten second yahoo search.
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/info_armor_tuff.htm

As for the shotgun, yeah you probably paid too much but the wilson is top quality and reliable. I wouldn't spend that much on a hd shotgun but I'm kinda cheap and couldn't afford it anyway. You have already bought it, so even though the resale will be higher just for the name you probably can't get your money back out of it so forget about the money. Be proud, post some pictures, and enjoy it.

Here is another link to wilson with the description and upgrades done to your shotgun
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/s_borderpatrol.asp

[hub]

I thought the website gave a pretty good description.

SCATTERGUN TECHNOLOGIES™

BORDER PATROL MODEL

The Border Patrol Model has an outstanding, well-earned reputation as the workhorse of Wilson Combat’s shotguns. The US Border Patrol uses thousands for daily service, in some of the harshest conditions a firearm may encounter. Unqualified quality and relentless reliability are the minimum requirements demanded of a firearm for their mission – and the Border Patrol Model has met their expectations for years.

The cylinder-bore barrel is available in 14”(NFA only) or 18” length with a 3” magnum chamber, ready for whatever type of ammunition your job requires. The included magazine extension tube offers increased capacity for a total of 6 rounds with an extra-power heavy-duty stainless magazine spring for sure shell feeding in any situation, and a high-visibility, non-binding follower to indicate an empty-magazine tube at a glance.

The Border Patrol Model is fitted with synthetic butt stock and fore-grip. We offer a standard buttstock length, with an optional shorter buttstock – or your choice of an optional Knoxx SpecOps Stock or AR collapsible stock.

Other included features include a Jumbo-head safety, multi-purpose tactical sling, buttstock sling swivel and a rigid magazine tube front sling mount. Our adjustable TRAK-LOCK® Ghost Ring rear sight is paired with a ramp-type front sight with a tritium self-luminous insert for fast and accurate aiming.

Wilson Combat’s® finishes the Border Patrol Model with our extreme-conditions tested Armor-Tuff® - proven around the world as the toughest and most durable practical finish for all environments.

12 gauge is standard for the Border Patrol Model, but we can build it for you in 20 gauge if that is your choice. Whichever meets your needs, the Border Patrol Model is mission-ready and offers complete reliability for the best-value in today’s market.

FEATURES

Sights Adjustable Trak–Lock® Ghost Ring rear sight, ramp-type front sight with tritium self- luminous insert
Magazine Tube Extended Magazine Tube, total capacity: 6+1 rounds
Stocks Synthetic Speedfeed® Buttstock and Fore Grip
Follower High-Visibility, Non-Binding Follower
Spring Extra-Power Heavy-Duty Stainless Magazine Tube Spring
Safety Jumbo Head Safety
Sling Multi-Purpose Tactical CQB Sling
Sling Attachments Buttstock Swivel and Rigid Magazine Tube Sling Mount
Finish Mil-Spec Black Manganese Phosphate (Parkerized) on Barrel and
Steel Components or Armor-Tuff® Finish

PRICING
Shotguns
SBP-A Border Patrol, 18 1/2", Armor-Tuff 1,050.00

SG-BUP Border patrol Upgrade Package: Knoxx stock and Mesa-Tactical 6-shot side saddle for Border patrol Model $165

I'm guessing that would make the MSRP $1215 You probably could have got it for less but not like you spent hundreds more than it's worth.

[unterseeboot]

Thanks for the information Hub. It seems like the first 11 or so replies that I got were basically saying "Yes, you were taken for a ride and you are a complete idiot" and after that other members were saying that Wilson Combat does more than just tack on a few whistles and bells to a Remington 870 Express when they customize their shotguns and maybe I didn't get totally ripped off after all. I would still like more details on what exactly Wilson Combat "upgraded" within the shotgun other than the improved follower (a six dollar item) and the heavier duty spring in the magazine. What other budget Express parts, if any, did they upgrade? For instance, is the entire trigger group aluminum like the Police 870? Regardless, I will enjoy it and get good with it. In addition to some people with drinking and drug problems in my very remote area, we have wild animals that can attack without warning. Last month the guy in the cabin next to me had to shoot a seven foot bear that was breaking down his door to get to him. He fired one shot from an old, poorly maintained, low budget rifle before it jammed but he was lucky enough to get the bear through the heart with that shot or he would have been breakfast. I decided I needed something better than my revolver.

[hub]

I think the only thing budget about the express is the fit and finish, stocks, and trigger group. Just looking at the picture I think it has the plastic trigger group. Also you have a different finish with the armor tuff and phoshate coating on the barrel. Your stock is upgraded too so that's not an issue.

I'm not sure about the armor tuff finish. Like I said that was what I found with a quick ten second search. I bet if you did some digging you could find some decent reviews. Probably more on some 1911's refinishes using it.

Wilson accessories are expensive. I looked on their order form and to retrofit your own 870 express to the border patrol package is $700. I'm guessing a new express would be somewhere around $300, then you have to add another $165 for the knoxx stock, side saddle upgrade and still mail and wait time. So that's what? $1165. $50 bucks more not including shipping.

Here are some of the accessories from Wilson if you did it your self.
express 12ga $300+ or -
case $70
magazine extension $45
Hi viz follower $7
Heavy duty spring $8
Over sized safety $15
Sidesaddle $32
Ghost ring sights $115
CCB sling $45
Armor tuff finish $250
Knoxx stock $135

That's $1022, with out any gunsmithing work, and or labor costs.
Are some of the things overpriced. Yeah, and you could find them cheaper somewhere else but how much would shipping or gas money add if you got them all separate.

Do you really need all of them? NO, but if you got the money and that's what you want then why not it's your money?

From what I read Wilson does do some work to the 870's internals to ensure reliability too.

I copied this from a magazine review I found on the Ultra tech 870 that had the border patrol package installed on a base 870 express.

To ensure total reliability -- a hallmark of Wilson-tuned firearms -- the gunsmiths hone the slide action bars and ensure they are straight and parallel. The bolt is checked for smooth operation and the ejector and extractor are inspected for correct fit and function. There is not an awful lot that can go wrong with an 870, which is why it is the favored police shotgun of all time, but Wilson's skilled technicians make double-certain everything checks out.

Hope that helps you feel a little better about your purchase. Yeah you probably could have got it cheaper, or used cheaper products that may function just as good if you had done your homework but we all learn from our mistakes.

From what you said about your neighbor's bear encounter then your life just might depend on it's reliability someday. You might want to look in to getting some hard cast slugs also and practice.

Another thing I would do if my life depended on it would be to shoot a wide range of ammo through it. I'm talking slugs, magnums, and cheap wal-mart value packs (Winchester bulk aluminum base) just to make sure it won't choke on anything at all. The biggest complaint about the express's reliability is that it may need the chamber honed and polished if shells are hard to extract. Wilson may do that too but I didn't read that anywhere.

[Hawk]

Thanks for the information Hub. It seems like the first 11 or so replies that I got were basically saying "Yes, you were taken for a ride ...

That does indeed seem to be something of a consensus but honesty would compel me to admit that I don't understand it. 'Course I'm a guest in the shotgun forum and am more of a 1911 guy.

I do believe that if you announced that you had ponied up 2,600.00 for a Wilson CQB in the semi-auto forum there would be high fives all around and few that thought you overpaid.

A remark such as "the only part of the wilson thats even has a point is the extended mag..." that goes mostly unchallenged in "shotguns" would draw notice if something along the lines of "the only part of the wilson CQB thats even has a point is the ambi safety and Wilson mag..." were to be dropped in the handgun forum.

It appears you paid a good price for the product - it's not like the dealer got to hose anyone - he didn't get it for any raging bargain from Wilson.

I don't know what the prevailing attitude would be in the rifle forum if someone said they spent 2,000.00 for a Wilson M4TAQ.

My only guess is that the DIY spirit lives deeper in the souls of shotgunners. Also there has been, at least in my humble estimation, an overabundance of tactical threads here of late and some may be experiencing burnout or at least questioning whether this or that gizmo is worth the prevailing tariff or, for that matter, even if the gizmo is desirable.

But if it's something you wanted, and it evidently is, Wilson doesn't come cheap. It's not like someone bought an 870 Express, put it in a box with a double fistful of parts that belong on an airsoft, added some Krylon, shook it until it looked like an ad for a 590A1 then hid in the bushes until you came along.

[Norinco982lover]

This thread is worthless without pictures.

I think you paid the MSRP and I hope you like it! I use a $100 Norinco...but it's probably not quite as pretty as your Wilson:D

~Norinco

[3pairs12]

I am on the I wouldn't have page. I also don't think you did bad though. Look at all of the Benelli M4s out there that go for several hundred more. Your gun is just as well built maybe better I would prefer your gun over an M4. HD shotguns are not my thing though.

This thread is worthless without pictures
Yeah lets see it.

[Hawk]

It should probably be noted that Wilson MSRPs are more closely related to Ed Brown, Les Baer and Nighthawk MSRPs than Remchesterberg's MSRPs.

Discounts are known to exist but you will play merry hob trying to match the percentage discount one might find with a more widely distributed product - and generally hit dry wells.

FWIW, I have a roughly 2 kilobuck Dawson/STI which may not even be as pretty as a RIA and doesn't perform a function demonstrably different from a Hi-Point C40. Oddly enough, I don't have a single particle of buyer's remorse and don't recall ever having any - at least not after the second case of ammo.

I'm no expert on Wilson ne Scattergun Tech's stuff but there seems to be a claim they've slicked up something already deemed pretty slick - put a skid of flats through the thing and post pics.

[dom1104]

sorry, you still got taken.

Sell it now, sell it quick, and wash your hands of pricey pumps.

[huntsman]

After thinking about it later I got serious buyer's remorse because I am afraid that all I really got was a Remington Express with a few extra bells and whistles that I could have put together for a lot less than $1,200.

No you got a custom gun which will hold its value or increase, a cheap 870 is always going to be just a cheap pump.

Use your Wilson enjoy the Tac-coolness if that's your thing, and in a few years if you so desire to sell you shouldn't get hurt with the price.

That is if you paid cash for it.

[PT1911]

I find it is typically a bad idea to buy things on an impulse... especially if it is over A GRAND!!!!

[Schofield3]

take it out and get very familiar with it. Shoot it a lot. Then go borrow someone's 870 express and shoot it a bit. You will tell the difference. Maybe you didn't need it. Maybe you could have built one a little cheaper. But you got a good gun, a very good gun. Don't despair. ....

+1

[ArmedBear]

That does indeed seem to be something of a consensus but honesty would compel me to admit that I don't understand it. 'Course I'm a guest in the shotgun forum and am more of a 1911 guy.

I do believe that if you announced that you had ponied up 2,600.00 for a Wilson CQB in the semi-auto forum there would be high fives all around and few that thought you overpaid.


Let me explain...

The shotgun forum is filled with people who MUST have a side-by-side (even though they've never shot one before), want a good one, and have a maximum budget of $300.

It's also full of people who are desperately looking for a store that has Chinese knock-offs because they're a few dollars cheaper than real 870s.

Furthermore, people who want to buy a $3000 gun for $300 take PERSONAL OFFENSE when informed that they really can't do that.

Of course, some of us Sporting Clays shooters would spend our last $2600 on an over-under, but wouldn't spend that on any semi-auto with a rifled barrel if we won the Powerball.

[Hawk]

Well, whaddayaknow?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142233079

Looks like you slid under this guy by around 15.00.

[Youngster]

I've got about $850 in my custom 870, and while the result is envied I wouldn't go that route again considering I could get a better shotgun for the same or a little more money, right out of the box.

[bambam1723]

Thanks for the information Hub. It seems like the first 11 or so replies that I got were basically saying "Yes, you were taken for a ride and you are a complete idiot" and after that other members were saying that Wilson Combat does more than just tack on a few whistles and bells to a Remington 870 Express when they customize their shotguns and maybe I didn't get totally ripped off after all. I would still like more details on what exactly Wilson Combat "upgraded" within the shotgun other than the improved follower (a six dollar item) and the heavier duty spring in the magazine. What other budget Express parts, if any, did they upgrade? For instance, is the entire trigger group aluminum like the Police 870? Regardless, I will enjoy it and get good with it. In addition to some people with drinking and drug problems in my very remote area, we have wild animals that can attack without warning. Last month the guy in the cabin next to me had to shoot a seven foot bear that was breaking down his door to get to him. He fired one shot from an old, poorly maintained, low budget rifle before it jammed but he was lucky enough to get the bear through the heart with that shot or he would have been breakfast. I decided I needed something better than my revolver.
Seeing as you have great reason to have a reliable long gun...I wouldn't have any buyer's remorse over getting a dependable shotgun. Part of being a good tactical practitioner is having faith in your equipment.

[jordan1948]

Follow this link. I think you'll feel a little bit better. http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&source=hp&q=Wilson%20Combat%20Border%20Patrol%20870&gbv=2&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=if&start=0

[chas08]

I think you got screwed, but then that's just me...YMMV

[hub]

I think you got screwed, but then that's just me...YMMV
__________________

Maybe he did, but I've also been guilty of spending more than $1215 on a custom 1911 I didn't need and my life didn't depend on. I could have gotten a mil-spec Springfield, a Taurus pt 1911 or a RIA for around $400-$500 that would probably function just fine and be plenty accurate for what I need so I guess I got screwed too but that's what I wanted and I had the money to spend.

What's the point, the 1911 like the 870 is good design, and it's been around for a long time. That doesn't mean it can't be better by being made more attractive, accurate, and reliable by a good custom shop. If a custom shotgun is what your into and want to spend your money on then why not?

If you did the upgrades yourself for half the cost of the Wilson you would just have another bubba'd up tacticool 870. How much is that really worth? I really don't think you could get half the money you put into upgrades back out of it. Just because the side of the receiver says scattergun technologies it will always be worth a lot more in resale value weather it's more effective or not.

[oneounceload]

Let me explain...

The shotgun forum is filled with people who MUST have a side-by-side (even though they've never shot one before), want a good one, and have a maximum budget of $300.

It's also full of people who are desperately looking for a store that has Chinese knock-offs because they're a few dollars cheaper than real 870s.

Furthermore, people who want to buy a $3000 gun for $300 take PERSONAL OFFENSE when informed that they really can't do that.

Of course, some of us Sporting Clays shooters would spend our last $2600 on an over-under, but wouldn't spend that on any semi-auto with a rifled barrel if we won the Powerball.

EGGZACKLY!

OP - if you like it, and the expenditure didn't hinder your ability to meet your regular life compulsory expenditures, then you did good.

Too many folks here seem to think that anyone who spends more than $200 on a shotgun got taken - most have no comprehension about barrel regulation on O/U's or SxS's, have to look up what Bulino means, or understand the point of proper fit.......

Besides, you can always sell it if the buyer's remorse is THAT bad. IMO, you bought, go shoot it and have some fun with it

[PJR]

I think people on this thread fall into two groups. The first are the jealous and the cheap. They claim the OP got screwed because they can't afford or would never imagine spending that much on a gun. They will claim that their much cheaper gun with all the tactical add ons is just as good.

The second are the people who understand quality and will pay for the additional handfitting, improved parts, better functioning of a gun that has been gone over by some of the best tactical shotgun people in the business.

I don't think the OP got screwed at all. Wilson Combat does good work.

[Youngster]

For me it's not about being cheap or jealous, but that $1200 is Benelli semiauto money, not tactical pumpgun money.

[chas08]

What did I buy? Did I get taken?
I think you got screwed, but then that's just me...YMMV
Just a simple answer to a simple question....no more....no less. And as I said, his mileage may vary.

[oneounceload]

And for me, that 1200 is a down-payment on an AyA #2 in 28 gauge - to each their own.

Look at the $3500 Ithaca 37 28 gauge pump.........

[Hawk]

... have to look up what Bulino means, ...
Eating disorder, right? ;)

Some of the folks commenting negatively about the amount of money spent have forgotten more about tactical shotguns than I'll ever know.

But, I would respectfully submit that some of this is simply a communication issue. To me "taken" in the context of "Did I get taken?" means paying 300.00 for a Jennings .25 or 499.99 for a Hi-Point C9 or paying 40,000.00 more than your neighbor did for the exact same current model Chevy Malibu.

Being "taken" does not mean buying a Cadillac - it means spending twice what you should have for the Cadillac. The OP bought a Cadillac and paid the right price for it. The debate seems to have drifted into whether or not the purchase was extravagant or whether the Cadillac could have been built in one's own garage out of a '78 Camaro, a half ton of fiberglass and a cart full of Pep Boys parts which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Within nickels and dimes, he did not pay more than anyone else would have for the exact same product. Hence, not taken.

[texas bulldog]

What did I buy? Did I get taken?

you bought a high-end custom HD gun. you paid approximately the going rate for same. so i would not say you got taken; you may have simply bought more gun than you really needed. however, if the point of owning guns is to buy the cheapest one that will get the job done, i think several of us are going to need to turn in our memberships.

[Ben Shepherd]

I'd say you did ok. Had you hunted around you may have beaten that price by maybe a hundred bucks.

But for what you got, which is one of the best 870 builds there is? I wouldn't feel a bit bad about it.

This isn't an express with a bunch of ATI crap hung on it guys. This is a purpose built rough use 870.

[oneounceload]

Eating disorder, right?

Of course, especially if you like pasta, Tuscany wine, and olive oil....:D

[Girodin]

Keep in mind most of the people thinking you got ripped off probably could not afford a $1,200 shotgun if they wanted one. I typed out a post and then read a few and noticed that Hawk had basically posted the exact same thing (and probably put it better).

You paid a fair price for the high end gun you got. Whether a less expensive gun would have met your needs is a different issue.

[snooperman]

You bought an excellent defense gun . There is nothing wrong with that at all. I paid $2350.00 for a winchester model 12 20 ga several years ago. It is beautiful and I enjoy hunting with it. I could have bought another cheap gun to hunt with, such as a Mossberg, which would do the job just as well. But, I had to have the Winchester. That said, how is that any different than someone who wants a first class HD shotgun that is made extremely well ?

[oneounceload]

I'll say it again -
you did fine - maybe not according to the bubbas who would duct-tape a maglight on the barrel and call it good....but to those of us who CAN appreciate it, there's no issue.

You bought a quality gun from a quality company with a reputation that substantiates it...

Shoot it and have fun

[52grain]

You bought a high end, tactical custom shotgun. You paid more or less the going rate for that quality of gun. Yes it would have been possible for you to put a similar package together yourself, but by the time you pay for all of the parts, pay for shipping, gas, and your time, it would not have been much (if any cheaper). From your later post, it sounds like you NEED a reliable shotgun, and that's what you bought. Could you have spent less money? Yes, but what's the fun in that?

We need pictures, some of us have to live vicariously.

[Mr Kablammo]

If you like it, then YOU bought good. Take it out and shoot it a bunch so you don't inflame the feeling of buyer's remorse. The more that you use it, the more you'll feel like you are getting something back out of it.

Girodin has a good point.

[unterseeboot]

Sorry for the delayed response. I had to drive 13 hours to get home today and I could not check for responses until now, but WOW, I sure feel better about my purchase based on the generally positive opinions about my new Wilson Combat 870 shotgun. I have more to say and ask, but it is late and I am tired from driving all day. Tomorrow I will try to post a few pictures of it. Thanks so much for the input. Negative or positive, it is all very helpful and for the most part has made me feel much less violated.

[blatantsubtlety]

"I decided I needed something better than my revolver."


i would too if my neighbor had a 7 foot bear beating down his door!:scrutiny: hope you enjoy your new shotgun.

[b.thomas]

What I've read about Wilson is they build their shotgun on the Wingmaster version of the 870, NOT the express. Even then they break it down completely and rebuild/fine tune it, add/improve it with custom Wilson parts as needed and sell as a package deal.
A guy will buy a stock 1911 and pay $800 bucks for it, then add another two grand just to customize it and not think anything of it!
..................No difference with the Wilson 870.:D

[snooperman]

Heck, you have even got me interested in the Wilson. They are super nice guns.

[Two Cold Soakers]

I gotta say, if I had the budget and needed a uber-reliable shotgun, Wilson'd be on the short list.

[lions]

If I had 7 foot bears breaking down doors in the same zip code as me I'd be awful glad to have a shotgun like yours!

You already spent the money on it, quit worrying about that and just enjoy the gun. You get to decide if the gun was worth it to you, my opinion and the MSRP don't mean squat if you like the gun.

[AcceptableUserName]

You got hosed. Anyone who buys those does. You get a quality gun...however you get it at a hugely inflated price. Most of their nifty names for what they do are simple techniques you could do at home with some household materials, and unlike some others, I do feel with the right-now how you could approximate the gun on your own for cheaper, with the exception of any barrel mods Wilson may do (and for that price it better have a custom lengthened forcing cone AND porting). I'm not saying Wilson is low quality by any means, I'm saying you're paying for the name. Also, the "Scattergun Tech" shotguns I've seen are actually based on plain jane 870 Magnums or even Express guns. Maybe they do some guns based on an 870p or Wingmaster but not the ones I have personally held and inspected. Everyone overpays at one point in their life. As said before, just enjoy what you got. But when it comes to Wilson products and their prices, I'm not a fan.

[ArmedBear]

Most of their nifty names for what they do are simple techniques you could do at home with some household materials

You could build a whole gun from some steel stock, in theory. So what?

I have fitted a recoil pad to an O/U, but not everyone has or has access to the equipment.

It costs about $75-100 to have it done, because the guy who does it has to pay for the equipment and his time, along with the risk of screwing up your recoil pad and having to pay for a new one.

Is $100 a ripoff if you could do it yourself?

You can clean your house yourself, too. But at the times in my life when I have the money, I don't feel "ripped off" when I pay a housekeeper to come in every two weeks and save me the time so I can do something else.

I'm a DIY person, much of the time, in part because I like it. It makes me feel less like a helpless cog in a big machine, and keeps me more self-sufficient in skill and attitude.

But if I had no spare time, and plenty of spare cash, it wouldn't be a "ripoff" if I paid someone else for every home repair, gunsmith task, car repair or chore, just because I could, in theory, do it myself.

[Hawk]

Most of their nifty names for what they do are simple techniques you could do at home with some household materials, and unlike some others, I do feel with the right-now how you could approximate the gun on your own for cheaper, with the exception of any barrel mods Wilson may do (and for that price it better have a custom lengthened forcing cone AND porting).
I suppose the same could be said about Wilson's 1911s though a lot would depend on whether one wanted a firearm or a hobby.

There's certainly nothing wrong with parts swapping and amateur gunsmithing as a hobby but a lot of people would prefer to buy something with a good reputation that's already put together. I suspect this plays a role in why Wilson, Baer and Brown remain in business.

It may be a bitter pill for some and irrelevant to others but something from Wilson will invariably sell better and maintain its value better than a Donny Dremel Shadetree Special Ops rendition.

One's assessment of the worth of one's own time and skills is a personal matter and just because you'd prefer a DIY project is a poor reason to assert someone else got "hosed".

"hugely inflated price" is also a personal assessment and, if I'm not telling tales out of school as it were, is coming from someone that started off not even willing to consider an HK for a suppressed firearm even though it would appeal to many as a path of little resistance. There's nothing wrong with the Glock for such an application and many may prefer it for good reasons but your assessment of the worth of your own personal time and / or willingness to pound square (or at least slightly out-of-round) pegs into round holes is not something that can be readily projected onto others randomly.

Wilson shotguns, Baer handguns and Wild West guide guns among a host of other products will always enjoy appeal among those that appreciate quality and don't harbor intentions of serving as one's own gunsmith.

I once liked to tinker with firearms but model trains are easier. On a totally OT note, I would personally pay anyone extra to NOT port a shotgun barrel.
I have a Cynergy sporting with ported barrels and it grinds on me just a little. ;)

[oneounceload]

On a totally OT note, I would personally pay anyone extra to NOT port a shotgun barrel.

Amen to THAT

But when it comes to Wilson products and their prices, I'm not a fan.

So that means they are junk - because YOU have a problem with them? - Are you one of those who feels you shouldn't have to pay more than $100 for an exhibition grade firearm and ammunition should be priced like it was 4 years ago? - If so, maybe you need another hobby....

[Two Cold Soakers]

Totally ot, I once drooled for a moment over a matched set of Colt Delta Elites (1911 in 10mm) one blue, one stainless. The drool dried up pretty quick when I noticed the Magna-Ported slides.

Whoever paid the $800 and $950 for those got taken.

[post_apocalyptic]

~$1200 for an upgraded Rem pump-gun. :uhoh: For that much, they ought to at least chrome the barrel.

Then again, I've paid ~$1k, (Arsenal SGL-20), for what could be a ~$450 rifle, ("sporter" Saiga 7.62x39), because I appreciate the many additional military features offered on the Arsenal model over a standard RAAC Saiga.

So.. I get paying a bit more for a superior version of a given weapon.

Go shoot it and I bet you'll feel less buyer's remorse.

[Hawk]

Then again, I've paid ~$1k, (Arsenal SGL-20), for what could be a ~$450 rifle, ("sporter" Saiga 7.62x39), because I appreciate the many additional military features offered on the Arsenal model over a standard RAAC Saiga.

Good example.

Speaking of Saiga, I believe there are several on this forum that own Tromix' product. Nothing like a 1,400.00 Saiga to go with that 1,200.00 Remington.
http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm

Inappropriate for the shotgun section but here's a 1,300.00 Marlin 1895:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/alaskanguide.html

Lots of folks getting hosed, suckered, taken and bamboozled out there - last I checked Wild West was running an eight month backlog on their little piece of highway robbery.
:D

'Course Tromix has that beat:
Due to our extreme back order situation we are no longer accepting any new orders for complete guns, customer built guns, or sales of gun parts until further notice. Our waiting list is also completely full. If you already have an order booked with us, or are on our waiting list, we will contact you when your slot nears the top of the build schedule. There is no need to remind us that you are still waiting.

[Ben Shepherd]

Speaking of Saiga, I believe there are several on this forum that own Tromix' product.

Guilty. And even though they were spendy for me, it was money well spent. Example: One of them in 223 Tony did for me is now over 7,000 rounds with no malfunctions. And it's very accurate to boot. Money well spent.

[chas08]

a lot of people would prefer to buy something with a good reputation that's already put together. I suspect this plays a role in why Wilson, Baer and Brown remain in business.

You're right, the tacticool crowd keeps Wilson, Baer and Brown in business. If there were no demand they would disapear. The 870 is as good a platform to do a build on as any around I suppose. I've heard it described on this forum and others as;"The finest assemblege of cheap parts to ever manifest themselves in the form of a shotgun" So what do you really have? an already great $600 shotgun with $600 of Trinkets, DooDads, and Autographs added to it. I've experienced buyers remorse. With a $1200 benelli sbe1 that I sold a perfectly good 1100 to help finance. I tried to love it, even through two in the field failures, that left me "boomless" with Geese in the air. The good news was that it had retained it's value so well that I didn't take too big a hit when I sold it. As I'm sure the OP's Wilson will, to some other tacticool lover, if he becomes disenchanted. And if he keeps it forever, then he got his moneys worth, and this is all moot. A good friend of mine's son said he carried a Mossberg Pump in Iraq. Thats a pretty basic weapon for a helluva job.

[NYShooter]

You spent $1,200 and got a great gun. Wilson, Vang Comp, Nighthawk and AI&P all build superior shotguns at around the same price point. Yes, if you had the time and gun smithing skills to DIY, you might be able to do a comparable job for less, but not that much less if you price-out all the add-ons. Enjoy you new gun!

[unterseeboot]

OK, getting back to the Wilson, here is a picture of the shotgun in question.

[unterseeboot]

Aside to "Hub" ....... Thank you for the list of Wilson accessory costs that apply to my shotgun that you itimized in Post #26. That was extremely interesting and definitely made me feel better. Thanks for taking the time to research and post that information.

[Rshooter]

Funny people will pay thousands for over-unders and think nothing of it. Enjoy it and use it.

[tkopp]

Note that the list is off on one item. No over-sized safety on that shotgun. You can't use one with a Knoxx stock.

Still, pretty sweet shotgun. With all the accessories I've dropped into my own 870 I'm approaching your pricetag, without the hand fitting! Those little nifty doodads add up faster than you'd think...

[unterseeboot]

tkopp, I guess I would have to see a standard sized safety for comparison, but I find it hard to believe that Wilson Combat would specifically list a "Jumbo-head safety" as an included feature for the Border Patrol shotgun if it was not actually on there, regardless of the Knoxx stock. In looking at it more closely I can see that if the right side safety head was any larger it would extend beyond the edge of the trigger guard. The safety head on the right side (to disengage the safety) is definitely larger than the one on the left side. Are they the same size on both sides for non-customized Remingon 870's?

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/s_borderpatrol.asp

[C-grunt]

You didnt get taken. You payed a premium for a nice shotgun that you wanted. Yes a cheaper shotgun can serve your purpose, but its not as nice as the Wilson.

Same thing goes with cars. Some people think spending 30 grand on a BMW is ridiculous when a 15k Hyundai with get you to and from work the same.

[hub]

No problem unterseeboot, I like doing some research and was wondering what kind of changes, upgrades, and gunsmithing Wilson made to the 870's too.

How does that knoxx stock feel I've never shouldered one before? The recoil reduction sounds nice for shooting turkey loads and slugs but I've never even considered one because it looks like the cheek weld on the tube would just not feel right too me. Same for the ghost rings. Never used any but to me they just look too high to get a proper weld. Anyway, just kind of curious of how they felt.

[C-grunt]

No problem unterseeboot, I like doing some research and was wondering what kind of changes, upgrades, and gunsmithing Wilson made to the 870's too.

How does that knoxx stock feel I've never shouldered one before? The recoil reduction sounds nice for shooting turkey loads and slugs but I've never even considered one because it looks like the cheek weld on the tube would just not feel right too me. Same for the ghost rings. Never used any but to me they just look too high to get a proper weld. Anyway, just kind of curious of how they felt.
I had an 870 with one on it and I didnt care for it much because of the feel and cheek weld. My best friend swears by them though for the reduction of recoil.

[hub]

Does it look like this unterseeboot? That's the jumbo head safety.

[hub]

C-grunt wonder if a modular cheek pad would have helped? Looks a lot more comfortable than the tube. Description says the standard pad is for bead sights, or optional low is for ghost ring sights, and high is for optics.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/PowerPak-Modular-Cheek-Piece,212,165.htm

[snooperman]

I do not have a knoxx stock but have fired several guns that have them. The recoil is much milder and provide a faster follow-up shot. You have a top notch gun. Wilson guns are so smooth and are really worth the money . You can not duplicate the quality of work yourself. The finish on that gun is the best in the business.

[Virginian]

I think you got World-Class taken. :eek: You got taken so bad, you ought to get a bye for the rest of this life. You got taken so bad you gan brag about it at cocktail hours. :cuss: Everyone has tales, but you will have the topper. :evil:

You do have my sympathy. We live and hopefully learn. :(

[tkopp]

Actually, I think you may be right Hub. I didn't take into account that unlike just about every other jumbo safety out there, the Wilson Combat model is exceptionally flat (https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/38852) and has the same pattern as the stock safety on the top. The same as a Remington part, really, just a little wider.

The pistol grip Knoxx stock allows the receiver to slide back on a rail above the pistol grip to reduce felt recoil, and has a second stiffer spring in the stock tube. The upper part of the pistol grip actually runs over the safety during recoil. This generally precludes anything but stock safeties on the weapon.

[Ben Shepherd]

You've got an oversized safety there. Factory ones are the same diameter all the way through.

[CoRoMo]

Of course, some of us Sporting Clays shooters would spend our last $2600 on an over-under, but wouldn't spend that on any semi-auto with a rifled barrel if we won the Powerball.

LOL!!! That needs to be a sig line!! Great!!

[PandaBearBG]

That dealer should of at least thrown in a case or two of buckshot.

[unterseeboot]

Yes Hub, that is definitely the safety that I have that you show in your photo. And the right side of it is much larger than the left side. At least I know I did get that little extra. Regarding the Knoxx stock, yes it does seem to take a good chunk of the kick out of the recoil. And the ghost rings, that is totally a personal choice but when I raise up the gun and peer through the ghost ring, the forward sight just sort of naturally locks itself into the middle of the visual ghost ring and from there it is pretty hard to be off target by very much. I really love the ghost ring sights and it helps to have the luminous front sight in low light to center into the ring. And even if I am a little off target, with that gun so what? I suppose if I was trying to drop that big bear from a hundred yards with a slug then precise aim would matter, but unless the bear was directly threatening me I would just let it go anyway. The only thing I will shoot automatically on my property are the rattlesnakes because they will get my dogs. The bull snakes are left alone. The rattlers will NOT like to see this new Wilson Combat 870 coming their way.

[lions]

And the ghost rings, that is totally a personal choice but when I raise up the gun and peer through the ghost ring, the forward sight just sort of naturally locks itself into the middle of the visual ghost ring and from there it is pretty hard to be off target by very much.

That is one of the biggest advantages to a ghost ring sight. Your eye does this naturally and automatically. I really like those sights and it sounds like you do too.

[tkopp]

I've only used non-illuminated ghost rings, and wouldn't use that configuration for home defense. Ghost rings are a great compromise between close-range speed (post anywhere on the target is a hit) and long-range accuracy (eye naturally centers the post for good groups). My complaint is that, at least with my m1 carbine, the ghost ring makes my sight picture dark. Not a problem during the day time, but with indoor lighting (a couple 75w light bulbs) or no lighting (ambient night time) seeing anything past the blurred ring and solid post is a trick.

I imagine with a fiber optic or tritium post the ghost ring could act like an occlusion dot with both eyes open, or it might provide enough contrast between the ring and the front sight to make the sight picture come together. Any thoughts on the ghost ring with an illuminated front sight? How's it work for you? And what type of illumination do you have?

[unterseeboot]

tkopp, I would like to give you an informed opinion on how well the sighting works with this gun, but it is brand new to me and I just haven't had a chance yet to take it up to my property to see what I can do with it. All I have done with the gun so far is fire five slugs through it at the indoor range where I bought it in Utah a week ago. I can't shoot it where I am now, but I plan to take it up to my property in the middle of nowhere next weekend to try various types of ammo in different light conditions. It has a tritium front post that I think is going to work well for me in low light, but we will see. Those dang rattlers seem to love to come out at night up there and wait for me on the trail, right when I need to climb the mountain to use my cell phone. I suspect the rattlers are up there now, meeting together with intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarding my property with envious eyes, while slowly and surely drawing their plans against me. I will be ready.