[longdayjake]

Okay, I know it has been done before since I remember reading the thread on this forum, but I just can't find it anywhere in the search option. I cannot find any small pistol primers in my area for a reasonable price. Most are about $55 per 1000. I have 20,000 small rifle primers that I got for a much much much much much cheaper price. I would like to wait until primers get back on the market and then back down to reasonable prices, but my stock on pistol stuff is quickly dwindling and I am going to either have to make some more or quit shooting. (thats like asking me to quit breathing). SO, how much hotter are the small rifle primers? I don't care the least bit about velocity, but only about functionality. SO, would it be safe to use minimum loads or do I need to download them even further?

Please understand that I am not wanting to do anything unsafe, I just want to know where a starting load should be as I don't want to go any hotter than what will make my guns cycle reliably.

[Zak Smith]

I can't comment on the overall safety; however, many, many USPSA/IPSC shooters use SR primers in hot .38 Super/9mm Super and .40SW loads. I use them in my .40SW/Long loads. They increased the velocity maybe 30 fps but more importantly cut the S.D. by a factor of 3 or 4.

-z

[longdayjake]

do you use normal load data or hot data?

[Zak Smith]

My .40SW load is moderate, lighter than factory loads with 180's.

The relevant info from my post was that just substituting SR primers increased the velocity a little bit (approx 30 fps) but decreased the SD.

[Walkalong]

You may have problems with some revolvers with light springs setting them off, maybe. You would need to stop a little short of max data using them. Other than that, they will work. They may not be as accurate in some loads, but make no difference in others. :)

[longdayjake]

The relevant info from my post was that just substituting SR primers increased the velocity a little bit (approx 30 fps) but decreased the SD.


SD in this case meaning:

Standard Deviation?
Sectional Density?

[Zak Smith]

Muzzle velocity standard deviation.

Only changing the bullet mass could have changed sectional density.

[longdayjake]

thats what I figured. I thought I knew what sectional density meant, but I figured I would make sure.

[ny32182]

I have read before that the biggest difference between SR and SP is the cup thickness rather than the amount of charge in the primer: Since rifles operate at higher pressure they need a primer that can handle it better. Makes a reasonable amount of sense, and some examination I have done of fired cups seems to support this idea, though I wouldn't call it definitive.

I've never tried actually substituting any of them. In my case it is going to be the opposite; I will run out of SR before SP, and given the theory above, I don't think I want to try a pistol primer in a rifle cartridge.

Maybe you can find someone willing to do a trade. I guess it would have to be local or hazmat would kill it.

[Nowhere Man]

I've also read that striker fired pistols may have trouble with the harder primers.


Dave

[longdayjake]

Well, I guess we will find out. I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

[Historian]

I have used SR primers in my M&P .40 without any problems. If you're concerned that the spring in your particular gun won't set them off, seat one in an empty case, put it in the chamber and squeeze it off. Be sure to wear your hearing protection.

Historian

[NoAlibi]

Because of the high pressure of some handgun cartridges, i.e.; 9x23 Winchester ~ 50,000 psi and the .30 Carbine for handguns ~ 42,000 cup, that the loading data actually recommends using SR primers.

It would seem logical to me, but by no means fact, that a rifle primer would be hotter than a pistol primer due to the usually greater amount of powder to be ignited in a rifle cartridge.

Therefore, if you switch to a rifle primer it would seem wise to reduce your normal load by at least 10% and work it up while looking for signs of excessive pressure. This is probably not a good project for an inexperienced reloader.

[NoAlibi]

Primer "strength" is measured in brisance and that is defined as a shattering effect. Brisance does not seem to precisely correlate to the term "hotness" used by reloaders, but it is the industry standard.

Almost without exception (possibly the Rem. LPM), rifle primers had more brisance than their pistol counterparts.

If you Google brisance, you can view many of the charts for yourself.

Hope this helps.....No Alibi

[Noveldoc]

Doing something similar. I load 30-06 for a Garand with pulled surplus .308s. My sweet spot for accuracy and function is about 75% max of Varget.

Could not find LR primers anywhere but I did run down a half decent price on Wolf magnums. Work fine with no indication of pressure issues. I bet I could carefully work up this load if I wanted to.

What do you folks think?

Tom

[Roadkill]

I use magnum primers in .308 for a M1A1 with no problem at all. I load 2g below mid range load. Also use them in 30-06 for a bolt action Mauser. Can't tell a difference in shooting them. I don't use them with my Garand because of the possibility of a bent operating rod. I'm sure I could but its just not worth it. If all I had was magnum primers I'd do it but haven't got to that point yet.

[longdayjake]

Could not find LR primers anywhere but I did run down a half decent price on Wolf magnums. Work fine with no indication of pressure issues. I bet I could carefully work up this load if I wanted to.

What do you folks think?


I use 4895 in my .30-06 for the garand. I bought a bunch of magnum primers to use in them because someone once told me that they burn the powder more consistently. I don't know if its true, but my garand has about 500 rounds through it with magnum primers and no issues to report. I think the issue with bending op rods has more to do with the pressure curve of the type of powder you use than it does with what primers you use. 4895 should not hurt your rifle as long as you don't load it so hot that it would hurt any rifle.

[Noveldoc]

Thanks for the feedback on the Garand. Hope to find some 4895 soon since it is the original. I had read though that Varget ain't bad in a gas operated because it burns clean.

Tom

[45crittergitter]

There is a good reason the manuals only recommend pistol primers in most pistol cartridges. I highly recommend biting the bullet, so to speak, on the proper primer purchase, or try trading your rifle primers with a buddy who has what you need.

[jmorris]

I use SR primers for several different pistol loads. It has been my experience that the new (blue box) Winchester small rifle primers are very close to the old (white box) Winchester small pistol magnum primers. Blue box pistol primers say they are good for both magnum and non-magnum loads but the small rifle primers work better for me as they are closer to the now almost extinct supply of the old mag primers I have left. I also use SR primers for 9mm major loads too.

[fecmech]

Jake--Here is a post I did on cast boolits with my experience. I would use them ! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=53117&highlight=fecmech

[Duce1]

I will add a little to what I do .

I reload many military calibers and also in pistol calibers from the military weapons. I know most are also civilian calibers as well but follow me first .

Mainly the 7.62x25mm Russian pistol caliber .

First the history of the caliber must come into play here because the caliber was designed as a machine-gun round for several of there weapons .
Later it was incorporated into the pistol to be used in combat as well and the loaded round was used universally in machine-gun and pistol .

Now since the 7.62x25 is known to be a hot little round I use the small rifle primers in reloading it for the reasons others have already stated and the rounds will be fired from a military weapon . It made since to me to do it that way and still does and I have had not a single one fail yet .

So to me some times you need to think about the caliber your loading for and what the overall design was for .

[JGAreddog]

I have used 100s of thousands of small rifle primers in place of pistol primers. The key is to use standard rifle primers with the thinnest cups that company has to offer. The cci standard small rifle and wolf small rifle both work very well. You should see lower standard deviation as well as anywhere from 10fps-100fps faster velocities depending on what primer you switched from. Just start out with the minimum your reloading manual states and work up slowly.

I am surprised the competition guys didn't step in on this one. Many competition shooters use rifle in place of pistol primers.

[45crittergitter]

All you guys using rifle primers in pistol cartridges, please post your pressure readings for both loads.

[1858]

Not much help here but interesting nonetheless ... I bought a Ruger SRH "Alaskan" recently and in the process of buying reloading related parts for it (dies, cases, primers etc.) I learned that .454 Casull loads specify a small rifle magnum primer. Never thought I'd have a need for those but a couple of weeks ago a I bought 2k of them specifically for the Alaskan. Surely this is an ignition energy issue where a small flash hole combined with lots of powder necessitates a primer with more energy. Kind of leaves me wondering why the .454 Casull wasn't designed to use a large pistol primer in the first place.

:)

[longdayjake]

As I understand it the magnum primers also have a stouter cup to withstand the pressure. If thats not true someone please chime in and let me know.

[1858]

As I understand it the magnum primers also have a stouter cup to withstand the pressure. If thats not true someone please chime in and let me know.

If this is true, wouldn't magnum rifle primers be a good idea for the "slamfire prone M1A"? Roadkill mentioned that he uses magnum rifle primers for his M1A.

:)

[jcwit]

All you guys using rifle primers in pistol cartridges, please post your pressure readings for both loads

Pray tell me just how this would be possible for the average reloader?

Regardless drop the charge 10% and work up your load. Not a big problem, primers are not sticks of dynamit. Small Rifle in small Pistol OK - Small Pistol in Small Rifle NO-No.

Forget it with Large Pistol and Large Rifle.

[Landric]

I've used some Wolf Small Rifle Magnum in place of small pistol. Generally it was successful, but I had a couple of light strikes with factory spring revolvers (just a couple), and the standard deviations got bigger, not smaller. Now, the Wolf SRM has a harder cup than their standard SR, so if I can get my hands on some Wolf SR, I might give those a try in handgun as well. Right now all the SR primers I have a Wolf SRM or 223 marked, both of which have harder cups.

[45crittergitter]

Quote:
All you guys using rifle primers in pistol cartridges, please post your pressure readings for both loads

Pray tell me just how this would be possible for the average reloader?


Well, you made my point. Since you don't know the pressure, and you are off the charts of the manuals, you don't know what you're doing, and 10% is a random, arbitrary number that may or may not be relevant or useful. I've seen primer pressure variation data exceeding 10%. Therefore, any ASSUMPTION that doing something other than using pressure indicating procedures is somehow safe, is purely that - an assumption. If a manual says use xyz pistol primer and cut starting loads by 10% for other pistol primers, that's fine - the company presumably checked the pressures or knows the variation. If it says nothing about rifle primers, they don't know (or won't tell) how far off you are.

Best case - you're exactly right and you saved $30. Every other possibility is worse, including what may possibly happen to someone else who followed a poor example.

[Zak Smith]

Well, you made my point. Since you don't know the pressure, and you are off the charts of the manual you don't know what you're doing,

I am all for safety, but to take this point to its logical conclusion one couldn't ever use a combination of components that wasn't published somewhere- maybe someone has published data in a book for your Berger bullet, but how about with BR2 or 210M primers and Norma brass instead of Winchester? To draw another logical conclusion, how about a .223 Wylde chamber instead of .223 Rem or 5.56 MM? I've never seen data in a book for a Wylde chamber. Similarly, how about everyone who loads for wildcat cartridges, or calibers too new to have published load data.

The point that changing components does not always have predictable pressure results is valid; however, to condemn all loads developed that are not book recipes is invalid.

-z

[jcwit]

So drop your charge 15 or 20 % and work up from there. As stated primers are not a stick of dynamite, ever poped one when reloading, got all your fingers? May not have any scientific figures in regard but then I have no scientific figures in regards to driving down the road at 3:00 PM in the afternoon of the day or any other time. But that doesn't stop me. Big secret unknown here to many is "common sense", something in very short supply today. Use common sense and watch for pressure signs.

Of course you could go out and buy a pressure testing set up, probably only a few grand.

[largemouth1]

I JUST POSTED A NOTE ABOUT THIS ON LONGDAYJAKE
Largemouth1