Curio & Relics ATF hassle?


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stchman
October 7, 2009, 09:24 PM
Hello all.

I am in the process of getting my C&R liscense. I like to collect WWII firearms (Mosins, Mausers, etc.). I have heard folks saying that they are getting hassled by the BATFE regularly.

Is this common? Once you are a C&R can the BATFE come to your house whenever they like?

I also had a guy tell me that if you did not dot an 'i' or cross a 't' that the BATFE will fine you heavily. Is this also true.

I am just doing this so I don't have to go to the local pawn shop for FFL transfers.

Thanks.

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Gordon
October 7, 2009, 09:28 PM
Yes on all your question!

Ed Ames
October 7, 2009, 09:47 PM
:rolleyes:

I'm about 3 years licensed. No hassles, no fines, no visits to the house.

pbratton
October 7, 2009, 10:28 PM
I'm an FFL and have been checked.

It's really pretty simple, follow the rules, keep the proper records and you'll be fine.

Shadow 7D
October 7, 2009, 11:16 PM
The ATF isn't hassling C&R anymore than they ever did, most of the post, if you searched were from non licenced people.

Second, The ATF has the right (and legal duty) to inspect you bound book AND collection when ever they want by calling you and arranging to inspect your firearms, during usual business hours when convenient for you OR BY ARRANGING FOR YOU TO BRING YOUR COLLECTION TO THE NEAREST BAFTE OFFICE

SO no

If you are not in compliance then you will have to come into compliance, they send you all the applicable rules and laws

As for the fines, you are responsible, but I haven't ever heard of a C&R getting fined for a procedural error.

Finally, you cannot engage in the business of gun dealing, and only can purchase those firearms that are on the BAFTE list of Curio's and Relics OR are over 50 years old.

So if you want to avoid the transfer fee, I hope you like old stuff.

wally
October 7, 2009, 11:51 PM
I'm happy with just the MidWay dealer discount that my C&R gets me.

The Romanian TT-33 and Ukranian "sniper" Mosin ain't bad either.

--wally.

kingpin008
October 8, 2009, 12:07 AM
Yes on all your question!
:rolleyes:

cane
October 8, 2009, 05:41 PM
I've had my C&R license for almost 12 yrs, never had a call or visit from ATF.

CoRoMo
October 8, 2009, 07:22 PM
can the BATFE come to your house whenever they like?

I've been told that they are limited to one scheduled inspection per year. Unless, of course, an inspection turns up something suspicious. Don't quote me on this though.

Yes on all your question!

Um... no; to all the questions.

Neo-Luddite
October 8, 2009, 07:54 PM
The ATF will send you a nice thick packet of info. Y-O-U must read and abide by the policies and regs.

Not hard to do at all. If you don't understand something, contact ATF.

If you approach the ATF as an advesary and NOT as a legitimate agency--guess what--you'll likely have a rougher time. I imagine that, in this tough economy, earning those nice big fed gov pay checks by doing type 3 compliance checks is pretty nice compared to say, kicking down doors and getting shot at.

Remember--ATF agents are *just* Joes and Janes trying to reach that pension at the end of the day. If all the type 3's get fed up, we can just send our licenses in or not renew and 'easy gig' is over, right? I mean, I don't earn money with my C&R--it's just for fun. It's a hobby.

spartywrx
October 8, 2009, 08:13 PM
I have to warn you

I have been visited multiple times by men in uniform over the past 2 years I've had mine.

Brown shirts visited me just last week and I had to sign a bunch of forms to make them leave. They were persistent and refused to compromise.












Did I mention they worked for UPS? :neener:
Getting guns straight to your door is awesome.



Get the license. Its really easy. Plus Midway and Brownell's give good discounts

Second, The ATF has the right (and legal duty) to inspect you bound book AND collection when ever they want by calling you and arranging to inspect your firearms, during usual business hours when convenient for you OR BY ARRANGING FOR YOU TO BRING YOUR COLLECTION TO THE NEAREST BAFTE OFFICE

What Shadow said is true. I am looking at the book of regulations they send you and you have two options
A.) Allow the agent to visit you at home. They will contact you in advance and set it up at your convenience. They will compare your bound book to your C&R rifles.
B.) Request to do the same at their office.

I've heard of people getting inspected, but you probably have a better chance of winning the lotto than getting inspected.

DMF
October 9, 2009, 05:12 AM
I imagine that, in this tough economy, earning those nice big fed gov pay checks by doing type 3 compliance checks is pretty nice compared to say, kicking down doors and getting shot at.:rolleyes: The Industry Operations Investigators (formerly called Inspectors) do the compliance inspections, and the Special Agents do enforcement operations. So the whole premise of that statements is complete nonsense.

Neo-Luddite
October 9, 2009, 11:28 AM
No, really , it's not in the larger sense of easy vs. hard sub-sets of the same agency that will at days end get (mostly) the same pay and bennies--right? That was my point--not that ALL ATF agents worked in the same sub-section or specialty area of their agency on some rotational basis.

If you want to split hairs about how ATF is structured, fine---that wasn't my overall point and I'm sure that you know it by looking at the overall context and tone of my post.

So, with that, YES! You are correct , sir!

DMF
October 10, 2009, 02:08 AM
No, really , it's not in the larger sense of easy vs. hard sub-sets of the same agency that will at days end get (mostly) the same pay and bennies--right?Actually no. The Special Agents get Law Enforcement Availability Pay and are under the ATC/Firefighter/LE retirement plan, both of which the Industry Operations Investigators do not.

My point, which I guess you missed is that the folks doing criminal enforcement can't decide it's easy/safer to inspections, and simply do those instead of working criminal cases. However, regardless of you backpedaling you did not understand that when you made the post I responded to.

However, as BOTH of your posts indicate you have no real understanding of how that agency operates, so it's no surprise that you made such an ignorant assumption about ATF operations.

stevelyn
October 11, 2009, 02:50 AM
I don't don't have much good.............er any good to say about the waffen BATFEces, but they do tend not to bother much with us C&R holders, and on one occassion seemed downright helpful.

chuckusaret
October 12, 2009, 12:35 AM
I have never been bothered by the BATF. If you are law abiding and keep your book up there should be no problem. They did pay me a visit when a pallet of assorted ammo that I bought on line from one dealer was delivered to my house. No problem after I explained it was a group buy by ten guys.

Neo-Luddite
October 13, 2009, 10:45 AM
However, as BOTH of your posts indicate you have no real understanding of how that agency operates, so it's no surprise that you made such an ignorant assumption about ATF operations.

Oh well, I guess they'll revoke my 'jr. agent' membership card. Again, you're correct.

My point was that type-3's shouldn't worry if they are 1) abiding by the rules 2) treating agents like normal decents folks doing a job like anyone else.

My point, which I guess you missed is that the folks doing criminal enforcement can't decide it's easy/safer to inspections, and simply do those instead of working criminal cases.

I never said I thought they 'had a choice'---but I would venture that many are happy to be working the safer duty. Sure, some aren't, too.
Again, mea culpa.

CajunBass
October 13, 2009, 10:54 AM
I got a letter from the ATF a few times. I suspect everybody else who has an FFL of any kind got them about the same time.

Shrevy
October 26, 2009, 03:20 PM
chuckusaret:
"I have never been bothered by the BATF. If you are law abiding and keep your book up there should be no problem. They did pay me a visit when a pallet of assorted ammo that I bought on line from one dealer was delivered to my house. No problem after I explained it was a group buy by ten guys."

I do not hold a C&R so I am new to this. How did the BATF know you were getting the ammo? Do you have to report ammo purchases as a C&R?

Also, what happens to your bound book if you end your C&R license (or let it expire after 3 years)? BATF requires an FFL to send their book to the BATF after exiting the business. Is this the same for C&R? Do you destroy your records after a certain time?

Ed Ames
October 26, 2009, 07:52 PM
Whatever Chuck was talking about had nothing to do with a C&R.

C&R's are not required to send their bound book(s). Otherwise the recordkeeping requirements are (IIRC, and I haven't re-read the book recently) standard for all FFLs.

RioShooter
October 27, 2009, 06:23 PM
I've been told that they are limited to one scheduled inspection per year.

This may be true, but I had one unscheduled and unannounced visit. Two agents showed-up at my front door while I was at work. They left some info with my wife, that could have been mailed, and then left.

At that time, my 03 FFL was only two years old, and I had purchased two rifles with it.

I live on the border and the agents were from the Houston office. My guess is that they were down here because of the large number of straw purchases that end-up in Mexico.

rocky branch
October 28, 2009, 05:30 PM
I've had mine over 10 years with no problems of any kind with any ATF issues.

One commercial site told me "we do not honor C&Rs"
"F" them-plenty more who will.
It has been very helpful in emptying my wallet at shows, sales, and shops.

What's wrong with crossing "T"s and dotting "I"s?

Like looking both ways crossing the street.

stchman
October 28, 2009, 06:03 PM
I have decided that I am going to get the liscense, not buy anything for a couple of months, and see if I get hassled.

If I don't than I will start buying some C&R eligible firearms.

Schutzen
October 28, 2009, 06:11 PM
I have met two "gentlemen" who were routinely hassled by the ATF about their C&R FFL's. Both were trying to use the C&R FFL as a license to buy and sell firearms. It is not, it is a license to collect. If you do what you are supposed to with a C&R License, the ATF will not bother you. They can inspect your records, but even before I had a C&R FFL I kept records of my firearms and my trades.

tulsamal
October 28, 2009, 06:45 PM
I've renewed twice. Never been contacted by ATF except for the info packets and letters they send out occasionally.

I'm sure something "odd" happens on occasion but the number one issue with the C&R seems to be "you are not in the business of buying and selling guns." If you buy five rifles and pick out the best one for your collection and then sell the other four, that's legal. But if you do that over and over and over again, it looks like you are actually after the profits of selling those "guns you didn't want." Especially if you advertise or buy tables at gun shows to sell them!

I've bought quite a few C&R guns over the years. I've never sold any. So nothing recovered at a crime scene is ever going to be traced back to me.

And, as others said, the number one benefit is being treated like a dealer by some online stores. I love logging on to Midway or Grafs or Brownells and watching the prices drop! Of course I then spend even more money since things are such good deals!!

Gregg

TexasRifleman
October 28, 2009, 07:25 PM
This may be true, but I had one unscheduled and unannounced visit. Two agents showed-up at my front door while I was at work. They left some info with my wife, that could have been mailed, and then left.



That is not the same as a compliance visit. They can come to your house every day if they want, and you can tell them to go away if you want.

ONCE a year they can do a compliance check, where they physically may inspect both your book and your inventory. You can choose to do it at their office if you wish. This ONLY includes fiearms purchased with the C&R, not all firearms that you own.

Any other compliance check they wish to do will have a search warrant with it. They can do as many of those as they want, as long as a judge will sign the warrant. Certainly if one violated the law it may draw attention, as it should.

But all the horror stories tend to be from people that are just reapeating what they heard from "a guy that knows this guy".

And don't confuse what they do to Type 1 FFLs. They are ABSOLUTELY making lots of visits to Type 1's lately, especially in border states. Most of those are centered around multiple handgun purchase forms. That's totally different.

Like most things, it is actually written down in the law.

CFR 478.23

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part478.pdf

For insuring compliance with the
recordkeeping requirements of this part:
(i) Not more than once during any
12-month period, or
(ii) At any time with respect to records
relating to a firearm involved in
a criminal investigation that is traced
to the licensee, or

At the election of the licensed collector,
the annual inspection permitted by this
paragraph shall be performed at the ATF
office responsible for conducting such
inspection in closest proximity to the collectors
premises.

lasinvegas
October 28, 2009, 09:26 PM
Any chance theres a link to the list of weapons available under the c&r?

TexasRifleman
October 28, 2009, 10:02 PM
Here's the whole C&R book.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

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