[Puncha]

If we assume that guns are not available, pepper spray or other aerosol devices are illegal and eletro-stun devices are for LEO use only, what weapon would be best suited for an UNTRAINED person to use for self defense in:

a) An enclosed space like a normal sized bedroom or private office room.
b) An open space like a parking lot.

Please assume that the person in question is of short height, 5'5" - 5'9" and of fair physical strength (able to bench 100lbs).

[spd1303]

paintball gun

[JShirley]

A large flashlight.

But really, there is no substitute for training. Even if you don't go train with a school (preferable), there's no reason anyone can't practice a few simple moves at home, until they're fast and second nature.

[ArfinGreebly]

Is there anything that would make a cane or walking stick inappropriate?

A cane affords distance, and can certainly be effective for strikes.

In close quarters, I would think some training would be appropriate.

[mfcmb]

A telescoping metal baton, a baseball bat, an approx 24" long piece of 3/4 galvanized steel water pipe. In short a club. A club that's short enough to be manageable in a small space, heavy enough to hurt, light enough to manage. Most people without any particular training can club someone with a reasonable chance of being effective.

[Mp7]

Stick.

Wether it´s a cane, a heavy maglite, a 2ft piece of steel-pipe
or a simple piece of wood.

If you can hit, thrust and lever with it ... select the one
you feel most comfy with.

A bit of training ... or at least thinking about
how you´d use it .. is key though.

1st Brain
then tool.


i have a mini Louisville slugger behind my door....
( and too many knives :) )

[ChaoSS]

You didn't rule out knives. There are several options, you can carry a small knife with you at all times, assuming that it is not illegal. A good pocket knife, 3 inches long, is a good weapon when out and about. A cane is good too. It's all about what you are willing to carry on you.

At home, go with a bigger knife, like a small sword even. Keep it somewhere handy, you don't have to carry it around everywhere.

Some people say you need training to use a knife. Bollocks, I say, pointy end goes in the bad guy. Seriously, though, a knife is a lethal weapon, carry it if and only if you are prepared to kill someone. It isn't a weapon to disarm and or disable someone, it is a weapon you use with the intent to spill all of someone's blood. It isn't something you use lightly, and it isn't something you should ever leave home without.

[bikerdoc]

a) An enclosed space like a normal sized bedroom or private office room.
b) An open space like a parking lot.

Since your question is posed for the untrained let us start with,
calling that person a victim!

With props to others, mindset, skill set, tool set, is the answer. in other words think, plan, act.
Since you have already identified three potential areas of danger, your first step is to develop a mindset not to be a victim. Now develop a situational awareness for these areas, especially the parking lot. (I take a indirect aproach to my vehicle and circle back from behind)

To give credit to another member, if you are fighting in your bedroom or office your layered defense has failed or does not exist.

The best fight is the one you avoid by planing (mindset), trainining (skill set),
and if needed tool set (weapon).

Thats my cranky old man way of saying your best weapon is your brain backed up by a cane.

[Dimis]

My friend from Louisville comes to mind i think his last name was Slugger

[ChristopherG]

A spear. E.g.,

http://www.coldsteel.com/aswishsh.html

[22-rimfire]

Aluminum baseball bat (a short one), walking stick (stiff one), large mag light, cattle prod, ammonia in a pump up sprayer, knives, machete, or a combination of these.

[nalioth]

Bottle opener, anyone?

http://www.novarata.net/images/urdefense_2071_1358358.jpg

[SeekHer]

Can you use bear spray in your country? Not MACE or other LEO based sprays but outdoors bear spray...

The problem with collapsible batons is that lots of countries have outlawed them for non LEO/military use...

The problem with knives is that if the other person has one then the first rule of knifefighting comes into effect and that is YOU WILL BE CUT! The other factor is the legal one, as the laws in lots of the S.W. Asian area you can't carry knives at all or only under a certain length excluding for work purposes...

The same applies to baseball bats, iron pipes (unless found there) for defense in a public place but OK at home...

spd1303 -- What the Hell are you going to do with a paintball gun--tie dye his shirt?

ChristopherG -- I really can't see the OP walking to his car in the deserted parking lot carrying a spear...If the police just happened to come by, he'd probably get thrown into the slammer...For home defense, possibly if legal, but you're wielding a 7'/2.13M long quite unmanageable pointy thing in a confined space...The same would apply to swords!

The only thing that is benign, non threatening, easily carried is a cane--and not a sword cane as they're really banned just about everywhere...I had one of oak that came to my hip that had a pointed brass ferrule at the bottom covered with a rubber walker and a very heavy brass coated steel knob at the top...what made it deadly was the piece of steel that ran from the knob to the ferrule...

There are lots of cane sites to browse through...

Like bikerdoc said, the best weapon is your brain and hopefully being able to extricate yourself--or better still never getting into--the situation...

We here in Canada are basically in the same situation as you are...

[ChristopherG]

No, of course, a spear has its problems as far as social acceptance and concealability, but the OP didn't mention such concerns-- and I naturally tend to be a literalist and operate in a la-la land of hypotheticals ;-)

I'd still take a short spear in a bedroom though, over a cane or baseball bat or anything else not already excluded by the OP. Get the 7' version and start chopping until you have the length that will work in the environment you need to work in.

In a parking lot, I guess we should read that it has to be carried unobtrusively on one's person. For an untrained person, I don't know that there's a tool that's likelier to help than be taken away by a determined attacker.

[middy]

Cane.

[CWL]

A big Chinese "chopper" knife for indoors.

Outside: flashlight, cane, umbrella with heavy grip, roll of coins.

[JShirley]

A MiniMag 3-cell (http://www.amazon.com/MAGLITE-SP2301H-Flashlight-Holster-Black/dp/B000PWDDXO/ref=pd_cp_hi_2/187-5447126-3942213)is long enough to get some good velocity and impact if swung. It's small enough to fit into a decent sized purse.

However, I don't know that it's small enough for most men to have on their person most of the time, if they work in an office environment...

[glistam]

I think the big issue we're getting hung up on this "Untrained." What's that mean? Absolutely no martial skill whatsoever? I hope not, because there's no weapon that fixes that problem.

Some people have a natural talent or inclination for using certain weapons. Some people can learn by watching. Sometimes our occupations or hobbies give us muscle movements or skills that are applicable martially. Some people have good reflexes. You don't have to have formal, ritualized training to do some damage. And there is no perfect weapon for everyone. Give us some feedback on our comments so far, Puncha.

[theotherwaldo]

What a silly question.

I've got over 100 edged weapons, a similar number of projectile weapons, a few dozen clubs, and a number of chemical spray devices in my small home. And that's not counting what's in the kitchen.

My work place has four swords, a battle axe, ten knives that I know of, a tee-ball bat, two canes, several dangerous-looking umbrellas, and a number of potential impromptu weapons. I'm not counting co-workers with CC permits.

And that's just in the children's department.

[ChaoSS]

In a parking lot, I guess we should read that it has to be carried unobtrusively on one's person. For an untrained person, I don't know that there's a tool that's likelier to help than be taken away by a determined attacker.

You know, I'm quite tired of that old, ridiculous saying. I can't count the number of times I've heard people claim that a knife in the hands of an untrained user is more likely to get taken away and used against you. What a load of utter crock.

If someone has the talent to take a knife away from me before I can cut him up, then it doesn't really matter if he takes a knife from me, because he obviously has such prodigious skill that he could kill me or inflict any amount of damage on me that he wishes.

A person determined to defend themselves will not lose their weapon so easily, and I'm tired of people perpetrating that asinine myth.

[glistam]

You know, I'm quite tired of that old, ridiculous saying. I can't count the number of times I've heard people claim that a knife in the hands of an untrained user is more likely to get taken away and used against you. What a load of utter crock.

If someone has the talent to take a knife away from me before I can cut him up, then it doesn't really matter if he takes a knife from me, because he obviously has such prodigious skill that he could kill me or inflict any amount of damage on me that he wishes.

A person determined to defend themselves will not lose their weapon so easily, and I'm tired of people perpetrating that asinine myth.

Here Here. Watch the last episode of Criminal Minds on CBS to see what an untrained, highly impaired person can do with a knife to 6 different people, including several who are directly trying to take the knife away.

These are the same dolts who think carrying a weapon increases the likelihood of an attack. Which is just another version of the superstitions that preparation for a possible future event causes it to happen.:banghead:

[highorder]

A thought on knives; I'll choose a club over a knife any day if only to avoid being bathed in the warm, HIV (or worse) infected blood of my attacker. Further, I don't want to get close enough to make a 1", 3" or 9" blade effective. Bloodborne pathogens are no joke.

I'll stick with a cane.

[ChristopherG]

A difference of opinion has obviously arisen. Let's please discuss it without calling one another dolts, if possible.

I think that, generally, a weapon is better suited to persons without significant combat training and experience the farther it keeps them from their opponent. The unhesitating aggression that the defensive use of a close quarters weapon like a knife requires is trained out of most people pretty thoroughly in this modern world of ours. I think there's a big gap between the willingness to put a knife in the pocket or on the belt and the preparedness to throw the switch into kill mode at a moment's notice.

[ChaoSS]

Here Here. Watch the last episode of Criminal Minds on CBS to see what an untrained, highly impaired person can do with a knife to 6 different people, including several who are directly trying to take the knife away.
The main difference between him and most people with a knife is willingness to stab someone. If you are waving your knife around, trying everything to avoid having to stick it in someone, then yes, you may well end up with someone taking your knife away. But if you, like him, are willing to stick the pointy end in the bad guy, it would take a highly trained martial artist to stop you from doing so or to take your knife away from you.


A thought on knives; I'll choose a club over a knife any day if only to avoid being bathed in the warm, HIV (or worse) infected blood of my attacker. Further, I don't want to get close enough to make a 1", 3" or 9" blade effective. Bloodborne pathogens are no joke.

I'll stick with a caneThat's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that a small knife can cause as much damage as a gun shot (although from a much closer range) while a cane can be a slow and clumsy weapon. In the home, where you could carry a proper sized weapon, I'd take a short sword over a cane or staff any day.

[ChaoSS]

A difference of opinion has obviously arisen. Let's please discuss it without calling one another dolts, if possible.

I think that, generally, a weapon is better suited to persons without significant combat training and experience the farther it keeps them from their opponent. The unhesitating aggression that the defensive use of a close quarters weapon like a knife requires is trained out of most people pretty thoroughly in this modern world of ours. I think there's a big gap between the willingness to put a knife in the pocket or on the belt and the preparedness to throw the switch into kill mode at a moment's notice.On hand, yes. On the other hand, long range weapons are often not suited to carrying on a regular basis. Canes are perhaps the only exception to this.

Consider also the fact that a person, armed with, say, a cane, who is unwilling to switch into kill mode, may be no better off. A person with a cane, determined to bash someone's head in, is a formidable opponent. A person with a cane, unwilling to hit hard enough to do what is needed, who flails his cane about, hoping to scare his opponent off, or hits, but not hard enough to put someone down, will see the cane taken away from them, or at least, their opponent will close quickly to a range where the cane is no longer effective.

Self defense is a state of mind. If you can not do what is necessary to defend yourself, if you are unwilling to see someone die at your hands if necessary, then leave the weapons at home, give up your wallet and watch when asked for them, and hope you don't end up faced by someone who really wants to kill you. Either you do what is needed to defend yourself, or you do everything you can to appease your attacker. Anything else is foolish.

[ArfinGreebly]

It may be well to remember that, since the objective in self defense is not "to kill" the attacker, but rather "to stop" the attacker, a better term for this might be "overwhelming force" mode.

Whether you have distance or not, your counter-attack needs to overwhelm the aggressor.

If he's not overwhelmed, he's not gonna stop.

Once he has been adequately overwhelmed and presents no further threat, that's when you break off.

In close quarters, engaging in an overwhelm attack, you will be too busy staying alive to focus on whether the assailant lives or dies, but only that he has stopped assaulting you.

[ChaoSS]

Sometimes an attacker can be stopped with a low level of force. An unruly drunk in a bar may stop after he gets a good clock on the head. He may stop when you threaten him with a cane, or when you draw a knife. He may quit when two big guys grab him and tell him to settle down.

I don't advocate going into kill mode just because you are in a fight, but we do need to acknowledge that there is no way to stop an attacker other than killing or completely incapacitating them. I suppose that is a benefit of a weapon like a blunt object, it is easier to knock out a knee, knock someone out, break an arm, do what is needed to stop someone without killing them. There are times, however, when something like that is simply insufficient.

[ArfinGreebly]

I suppose that is a benefit of a weapon like a blunt object, it is easier to knock out a knee, knock someone out, break an arm, do what is needed to stop someone without killing them. There are times, however, when something like that is simply insufficient.

And in that case, you would need to do what is sufficient.

[ChaoSS]

My only real point here is that what is often missing is not the training to use a weapon like a knife, but rather the will and determination to survive.

My secondary point was that a knife, even a small one, can often be a better weapon than something like a cane, although that is not without merit.

[Azul]

Collapsible batons are nice. An air weight 21" ASP is light and compact enough for easy carry and will put some distance between you and your attacker. A 16" is very good for a really confined space, it can be deployed and swung with force within a small car (my car at least.)
You don't really need to be trained to use a baton effectively in a self-defense situation (except for a little practice expanding it quickly). It's just a fancy stick, swing hard and aim for vulnerable spots.

[unloved]

You probably couldn't carry it around with you but, in a bedroom or office, I'd take one of thesehttp://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv195/unloved138/Decorated%20images/hammer.jpg over an ASP or cane any day.

[spd1303]

I would have to agree with danbrew. A dog is a good choice. And the whole idea behind my suggestion was if u are untrained a paintball gun would help you keep distance from the bad guy. And I don't know about any of u, but if I got shot with a paintball gun a few times without any protection, I might rethink my opitions

[ChaoSS]

You probably couldn't carry it around with you but, in a bedroom or office, I'd take one of thesehttp://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv195/unloved138/Decorated%20images/hammer.jpg over an ASP or cane any day.

That is slower than an asp. Throwing that at someone would do some damage, and that would make a hell of an impact if you can land a blow, but I'd rather take my chances with an asp.

I'd still rather have the knife when I can't have the gun though.

[unloved]

That is slower than an asp. Throwing that at someone would do some damage, and that would make a hell of an impact if you can land a blow, but I'd rather take my chances with an asp.

I don't know about slower. I certainly wouldn't throw it. I've got a lot of experience with making hammers do precisely what I want them to, so I'm quite confident I could land a series of devastating blows. The lowly hammer is also quite effective in hooking, trapping, blocking, and control maneuvers.

I'd still rather have the knife when I can't have the gun though.
I prefer guns and knives myself. I'd feel pretty good with my hammer in one hand, and my knife in the other, though.;)

[ChaoSS]

I don't know about slower. I certainly wouldn't throw it. I've got a lot of experience with making hammers do precisely what I want them to, so I'm quite confident I could land a series of devastating blows. The lowly hammer is also quite effective in hooking, trapping, blocking, and control maneuvers.

Slower. I've got alot of experience hitting things with hammers too, but the fact is that a hammer is simply slower than an asp. If someone manages to get out of the way of a strike with an asp, a quick wrist flick could redirect the weapon and still hit your opponent. A hammer isn't so easily moved.

Hammers are great for hitting targets that don't move. That's what they were designed for. The war hammer was an incredible weapon, but it was best employed against a heavily armored target that could not move as quickly, but needed alot of power to punch through.

Slip that hammer back in your bags, pull out your catspaw. That's light enough to move more quickly, heavy enough to do some damage, and there's a good chance you could make that thing do more damage than a hammer, or less, if you wished.

[JShirley]

An unruly drunk in a bar may stop ... when you draw a knife

Except that one should only use a knife defensively if you feel you or family are threatened with death or serious injury. In that case, your attacker should not know you have the knife until- perhaps- he is losing consciousness. Brandishing a knife is a good way to die.

For that matter, threatening anyone with anything is legally dubious and foolhardy.

J

[22-rimfire]

I don't know if I could do the quick stabbing without some hesitation which would announce the "knife". Obviously, you are correct about brandishing. I would have to be scared to death to just pull a knife out and use it without hesitation. Training would help considerably, but I can't see myself getting trained to use a knife. You X-military folks definitely have the advantage in this department.

[hso]

As JShirley pointed out we're talking about the use of deadly force and that obligates us to leave that to situations where we have a reasonable fear for our lives. A mouthy drunk in some bar does not equal that situation, usually. 3 mildly intoxicated thugs in a parking lot may. Those same 3 thugs where one picks up a brick/rock/pipe and says they're going to split your skull certainly does. Don't pull a knife unless a reasonable person would be in fear for their life.

It is important for us to know that use of many of the non-firearms weapons we discuss can be viewed legally as equivalent to the use of a handgun and we have the same legal obligations for reasonableness for their use.

BTW, training in the use of these weapons isn't that difficult to get and isn't that expensive. Single seminars are taught all over the country by trainers that travel and by local SD/martial arts schools on weekends. One seminar and some regular practice can make a huge difference in how well you defend yourself with any weapon. You must have the will to defend yourself and you should have the means.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

a swift kick in the groin or a knee to same area and an eye gouge and a crack on the noggin with a 3-D flashlight will adjust a 'tude quickly. easily executed by someone capable of pressing 100 lbs. that 20 oz estwing is a good one too.

[22-rimfire]

It is important for us to know that use of many of the non-firearms weapons we discuss can be viewed legally as equivalent to the use of a handgun and we have the same legal obligations for reasonableness for their use.

BTW, training in the use of these weapons isn't that difficult to get and isn't that expensive. Single seminars are taught all over the country by trainers that travel and by local SD/martial arts schools on weekends. One seminar and some regular practice can make a huge difference in how well you defend yourself with any weapon. You must have the will to defend yourself and you should have the means.

Good points that everyone needs to keep in mind. Deadly force is deadly force. I may have to check into available seminars, but I have no idea how to look for such offerings. Not really interested in martial arts training.

[Carl Levitian]

"You know, I'm quite tired of that old, ridiculous saying. I can't count the number of times I've heard people claim that a knife in the hands of an untrained user is more likely to get taken away and used against you. What a load of utter crock.

If someone has the talent to take a knife away from me before I can cut him up, then it doesn't really matter if he takes a knife from me, because he obviously has such prodigious skill that he could kill me or inflict any amount of damage on me that he wishes.

A person determined to defend themselves will not lose their weapon so easily, and I'm tired of people perpetrating that asinine myth."


Thank you sir, for bringing up this fact. Anyone thinking they can disarm a person with a knife and not get grievous damamge, give a co-worker or friend a magic marker and tell them its a knife and for them to cut you come close. See what happens when you try to take it away from them. The determination of the person is way more important than what he or she is armed with. Musashi killed more than one fellow samurai with a wooden bokan while they used a sword. Yes, training is nice, but a criminal is not looking for a root hog or die fight. Quickness and agility goes a long way as well. When I was into fencing, there was a 5 foot 4 inch little lady who was a rank beginer, but was wicked quick with a foil and scored against some much more advanced foes. Being a beginner, she didn't know she was making some wild untrained moves, and so drilled some upper classmen right in the heart.

Fear, determination, and adrenilaine surge can make one do very unusual things.

As for someplace where the law does not let you carry a weapon, like the OP, theres only two other ways to go; man's oldest weapon, a club of some sorts, or man's second olderst weapon, a cutting tool. A small sharp knife in a layered defense with a stick of some sort will do well in a repressive environment. Stick first, then knife in case it gets closer.

[gadinort]

For anyone, especially an untrained person, the first thought should be evasion. You may have to hit, kick, stab, scream, etc before being able to get away, but the assumption should be that if you know nothing (untrained) then your attacker likely knows much more about fighting than you.
After leaving a bar, a young woman's first thought on seeing a few goons with pipes in the parking lot should be to run back into the bar, not try to stab their eyes with her car keys! That being said, keys, letter openers, your mouth full of teeth, and a thumb digging into an attacker's eye are all useful as last ditch attempts.
But really, there is no excuse for not having some sort of training!

[22-rimfire]

But really, there is no excuse for not having some sort of training!

Really? What kind of "training" do you envision?

[ChaoSS]

Except that one should only use a knife defensively if you feel you or family are threatened with death or serious injury. In that case, your attacker should not know you have the knife until- perhaps- he is losing consciousness. Brandishing a knife is a good way to die.It's all dependent on the situation. People have been killed in bar brawls before. I got jumped once by a couple of drunks who thought I had wronged them, and I thought I was going to have to defend myself with more than my fists. I'm not suggesting you pull a knife when some drunk gets in your face. I was just pointing out that there are different situations that call for different levels of violence to defend yourself.

[76shuvlinoff]

Wasp and hornet killer directed into the attacker's face(s). I know it's an aerosol device but how illegal can it be?

[nalioth]

Wasp and hornet killer directed into the attacker's face(s). I know it's an aerosol device but how illegal can it be? Considering that when the military uses it, it is considered a "chemical weapon" (specifically a nerve agent), your guess is as good as any.

[commygun]

CRKT Bear Claw. Easy to conceal, easy to retain.

[Deltaboy]

Cane or a D-cell mag lite.

[JShirley]

I was just pointing out that there are different situations that call for different levels of violence to defend yourself.

Maybe my point was not clear. I am not saying never use a knife. I am saying, never brandish a knife. If you have to use it, do so, but don't just pull it out believing the mere sight will stop an attack.

You produce it without fanfare, and get to cuttin' without preamble. :(

That's the only way to use a knife that won't make it more of a liability than a potentially lifesaving tool. Otherwise, someone will get distance and just shoot you (and may even find legal justification). And, unfortunately, you will have it coming for using such poor tactics.

John

[ChaoSS]

Do you really think that is best? I mean, I know that guns and knives are very, very different weapons, but most SD uses of guns do not involve discharging the weapon.

If you are in a situation where your life is definitely in danger, then yes, get to cutting. If you are in a situation where nothing big is at stake, such as a simple drunk, you are probably best not drawing a weapon.

However, I can imagine a number of cases where pulling a knife and getting to cutting will get you locked up, especially in states that are less friendly to those engaged in SD, but going unarmed may just get you injured. I can imagine it being good to open up a little bit of space, draw a knife, and, without "brandishing", tell them to back down. If they are so intent on harming you that they charge a guy with a knife, you can reasonably say that you are in fear for your life. This wouldn't be against someone who might be carrying a gun, but it does have it's place.

[JShirley]

As kindly as I can say this, you need good training. Soon.

If you were not in fear for your life, you have no business producing a potentially lethal weapon. Anyone off their own property who produces a firearm without the intent to stop an immediate lethal threat, is badly trained or an idiot. In my case, a Potentially Lethal Threat has from the beginning of my drawstroke to my weapon being leveled to stop being threatening. Based on my competition times from a couple of months ago, that's about one second.

J

[unloved]

...draw a knife, and, without "brandishing"...

Drawing a knife with the intention of using it as a prop in convincing someone to "back down" is the very definition of brandishing. A knife is a deadly weapon. You don't draw a deadly weapon unless the use of that weapon is warranted, i.e., you are in immediate danger of suffering death or serious injury.

[ChaoSS]

With all due respect, no training is going to tell you when you are really in fear of your life. No training can truly prepare you for certain real life situations.

What happens when you are out and about, and someone, for some reason, starts to get in your face. He's yelling at you, possibly threatening to kick your ass. He's got 4 inches and 60 pounds on you. You could possibly shove him off if he grabs you, get a little distance, enough to grab your gun or knife and bring it to bear if you so desire, but you don't know if this man is just trying to scare you, if he just wants to slap you around, if he wants to hospitalize you, or if he's the type with no self restraint who could kill you with his bare hands. You don't know what's going to happen, and you don't know whether or not you should be in fear of life or limb. If you do feel that way, and kill the man, you could very well end up in prison for a long, long time, for something that probably would have ended without serious injury.

On the other hand, if you wait, you could end up dead, beaten to death without a chance to pull your weapon and bring it to bear.

It's grey area, and I would have no problems drawing a knife on someone who attacked me, given enough room that there is time between him registering that I have the knife and me having to act.

BTW, I use "brandishing" differently than the legal definition, I'm referring more to the method of brandishing whereby you are likely to lose your knife, the movie type of crap that certain imbeciles are likely to try.

[JShirley]

The burden of proof is usually assumed to be what a "reasonable man" would believe in your situation. If a reasonable man would assume his life is in danger, and the threat appears to possess

o Means
o Opportunity
o Desire

to inflict serious or deadly harm upon you, you are justified in using (potentially) lethal force. And you have already badly screwed up if a potential threat is "in your face".

Seriously. Get training.

J

[ChaoSS]

We can differ on tactics, the idea of when to pull a weapon, when to use a weapon, and the fact is that the law is not cut and dry on the issue, since "what a reasonable man would feel" can be interpreted widely.

It's ok though, the real world has taught me enough about how situations can develop that training does not teach you. I will defer to your beliefs on this subject and stop posting in this thread.

[JShirley]

Hey, you are *completely* correct in that real life is rarely cut and dried. Absolutely.

The problem is, the expectation of drawing any weapon in the hopes of scaring off or controlling a potential threat is an extremely dangerous idea. I, and any other experienced member who encounters this belief, would be remiss if I did not address it. Even if not for you, for others who would believe this was a reasonable tactic, otherwise.

Now, I have had training in when lethal use is appropriate in both a state-certified civilian course (to carry on the job in Ohio), and in the Army. I have worked on a club security team in clubs with over 1600 patrons on decent nights. I have been a deployed soldier in a combat zone. I have taken fire. I have engaged the enemy on numerous occasions.

Certainly, your experiences will are almost guaranteed to be different from mine, but don't assume I don't have a wide range of real-world experience to speak from. Feel free to ask (via PM, if you like) anyone else who's had a lot of real-world experience. PLEASE let me know if anyone who knows what they're doing actually suggests brandishing a knife.

John

[gadinort]

"Really? What kind of "training" do you envision? "

There is no such thing as perfect training since there are too many scenarios that could occur to be prepared for them all.

The idea of training is to be prepared for scenarios you feel are likely to happen and have a clue of what to do what the unexpected occurs.

Training could be a lifetime spent on shooting ranges, dojos, and the like...or it could be just spending a few minutes sitting on your couch and imagining what could happen and what your response(s) should be.

Just like you don't have to have any training to use a revolver, practice sure helps. And even though you don't need a black belt to respond to a drunk in a parking lot, it would be nice to have a couple strategies already in mind.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Why can't people just answer the question asked? He's asking about an untrained person; not asking for opinions on why training is good (which we all know).


The ANSWER to the (good) quesion asked is probably one of these things, *assuming* a certain fair level of basic strength and agility:

1. Short Spear / Assegai
2. Short ("Chisa"- or "Ko"-) Katana, or other similar 2-handed short sword such as a Chinese War sword
3. Tomahawk / short axe
3. Pepper spray (don't discount this one's effectiveness!)

Those are probably the most effective (and most intimidating, except pepper spray perhaps), but to add a few more that I'd only relegate to the 2nd tier, but which can make fine weapons:
5. Short sword or dirk or kuhkri (1-handed blades)(offhand arm is used to block, balance, etc.)
6. Walking stick, aluminum baseball bat, or other good basic, well-balanced long-ish 2-handed "stick"
7. Taser


Flashlight, ASP type batons, T-handle batons, etc., IMO cannot compare to the effectiveness of these. A long tough flashlight, short baton, or ordinary short fixed blade knife or even folding knife are not terrible options at all, but IMO not as good as these. I'd probably put them in the third tier of preference if my life depended on it.

I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with the long-bladed, short-staffed assegai. Combines the best of: sword, stick, and spear/lance. Chisa Katana or Chinese War sword close 2nd, and among those two, I'd take a Chinese war sword in a larger room, and a 19-20" chisa katana in a small room. Pepper spray 3rd choice for me personally. Taser 4th. The reason the taser is not higher is because it can be more easily defeated with thick clothing or just a miss.

Here ya go:

http://www.kingofswords.com/Swords/Cold-Steel/Cold-Steel-Assegai-Spear.html

http://images.google.com/images?q=chinese+war+sword&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7GPEA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=iiDfSsDNNovgM8rwsP4B&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=7&ved=0CDgQsAQwBg

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&rlz=1I7GPEA_en&um=1&sa=1&q=chisa+katana&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1&start=0

Please note that for the weaker and older among us, I'd choose pepper spray over contact weapons.

[Claude Clay]

attack chihuahua

-----------

walking stick. like a cane but a bit longer with a leather wrist strap.

a very common sight in impoverished areas with the middle aged and elderly
very effective against animals, both 2 and 4 legged

what got my attention re the walking stick was when i saw a older gentleman approached on the
street downtown by two younger males. in the blink of an eye one of them is on the ground
clutching his crotch and the other is staggering around with both his hands on his own neck.
just that fast the old man brought the stick up from the ground between one dudes leggs and
poked the other in the throat. and he than ignored them, stood there waiting for the bus.

[joe_security]

I say cone pattern OC spray. Very simple for the un-trained user.

[hso]

Just be careful about using sprays indoors. You don't want to become a victim of your own defensive product. Think narrow stream sprays or foams inside.

[cleardiddion]

That last bit from hso got me wondering.
I bought my girl one of those Kimber Lifeacts a while back, specifically because she may need to use it indoors.

I was wondering if the gel would actually be better at not spreading the love to everyone within the vicinity better than say a conventional spray

[hso]

Foams tend to lack range, but reduce the collateral damage. Fogs fill a larger area, but the collateral effects are highest. Narrow sprays can have the greatest range, but fall somewhere in between fogs and foams for effects outside of a single target.

There's a whole range of compromises that come from using anything whether it's a small knife, a big stick, a pistol or shotgun or even chemical sprays. You need to understand them well enough to choose and use them.

[kurra_hunter]

I think the most suitable weapon would depend on where you live (what won't look too out of place that can be used as a weapon- i.e. won't get you busted by the cops) and your particular circumstances. In the countryside I prefer firearms and all sorts of weapons but in the concrete jungle it's usually not so easy to carry around weapons.

That being said, I think the best option down here in South America is the ubiquitous machete, you see people carry them around everywhere (including cities and towns) during the day all the time. It's not something I would carry around a European or N. American or Australian city, but in Latin America I see guys carrying them around everywhere, they are viewed more as working man's tools, not weapons in any case.

They don't draw any undue attention and probably keep most people from thinking about robbing or attacking you. They also cost only a couple bucks and come in all sizes and you can carry around this 'sword' nearly anywhere down here. It's big enough to chop off a limb if need be so for south of the border my vote is for the machete.

[mustang_steve]

sturdy flashlight or a kubotan.

Kubotans are great for jabbing into the inside of the elbow joint, into the soft poriton of the wrist, etc. It will take some work to get used to it, but it's a good tool for dealing a lot of non-lethal pain swiftly and effectively.

Flashlights make nice clubs. one with a strike face is even better...just jab the attacker in the face with it a few times.

[Erik M]

To answer OP's original question I would say go to Cold Steel and buy the Crusher.

[Demitrios]

I was a bouncer in NY and NJ (two states that believe in disarming its citizens) for almost ten years and the best legal weapon I can recommend is a flashlight, particularly the Surefire E2D Defender. It has crushers at both the front and end of it, it's made of high grade aluminum so you don't have to worry about abusing it it'll take the punishment, it puts out 60 lumens (I believe they have an LED model that puts out 200 lumens), is enough to momentarily blind someone even with their eyes closed and it is like holding a roll of dimes which essentially turns your hand into a brick.

[E_Dublin317]

Guns will always be available, at least to those who intend to harm others. "Throw them all in the sea." The point you're trying to make will not happen, though, if by divine intervention people were unable to make guns, the world of criminals would have one less weapon.

[Thingster]

About 2 years back my mother took to walking the dog at odd hours and came back a couple times feeling uneasy. I started with a hickory axe handle and worked it down to eliminate the axe handle look, made the butt end nice and round, and worked a set of finger grooves into it and attached a 3/4" leather wrist strap.

Looks like any other walking stick, except it has that real nice, narrow edge that handles have and it's made out of a nice piece of hickory.

I can attest that a scared 5'2" 125lb woman can break someones arm with that before they know what's going on.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Don't forget, re: pepper spray "collateral damage" (to yourself): I'd rather have a disabled attacker AND a disabled me, than a non-disabled determined violent attacker, and non-disabled me.

Neither is ideal, but remember, it's the "violent aggressor" that needs to be stopped from aggressing, not you. You are only "aggressing" in self-defense. If the violent aggressor is stopped cold (on the ground rubbing his eyes), then there is no need for you to defend yourself, and hence in theory it doesn't matter much if you are also on the ground disabled temporarily. This theory could work in practice in a public area where undoubtedly someone will come to your aid soon; in a one-on-one isolated scenario, then whoever *recovers* first will win, which is a tossup.

[thunder173]

+1 cane,..preferably hickory, iron wood,..or what my daddy used to call a good old "p-$$ elmed club".....up here on the big lakes we have big fish,..and we often use what's called "fishing billies",..basically a small baseball bat,..to take care of business before cleaning them. Could be an option.

[mgregg85]

I'm a fan of the push knife for self defense use by those with little to no training(me). But if all that stuff that you listed is illegal, then knives and especially push knives will be as well.

If they aren't then I can't think of a better knife for a inexperienced person. If you can throw a punch and keep your hand closed, it will be hard to stop you or disarm you.

[deadeyedog270]

well lest see on hand we have several knive around the room and my wife keeps a baseball bat next to the bed (I think that is to keep me in line though) if I had to I can make any thing throwable in to a weapon.
Curently I got a nail gun and ready to go in my room (the remodle work never ends) and a saw or 2 power and hand

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey thanks a lot, guys for getting me riled up. I just ordered the Cold Steel Assagai from knifecenter.com. I read online that the wood on cold steel products is crap, but one ol' boy put a D-handled shovel handle on his assagai and it's a formidible weapon with a method of excellent retention from the D handle - sounds interesting.

[BillyDa59]

Wooden baseball bat will kick the snot out of any burglar. That's the most readily available non-firearm home defense weapon.

If I could have any melee type weapon to keep in my bedroom, it would probably be a large, two-handed sword. No kidding. A burglar most likely has a crowbar at best.

[ArfinGreebly]

I should think that in close quarters the crowbar would have the advantage.

My fencing days are way long ago, but as I recollect, the proper use of a long blade requires some space without walls and stuff to snag the blade.

I might be able to employ an épée (point-only weapon) in a confined space, but I'd feel pretty handicapped.

Up close a short cutlass or kuhkri or machete might fly.

Large bladed sword? Not so much.

[ChaoSS]

Don't forget, re: pepper spray "collateral damage" (to yourself): I'd rather have a disabled attacker AND a disabled me, than a non-disabled determined violent attacker, and non-disabled me.

Neither is ideal, but remember, it's the "violent aggressor" that needs to be stopped from aggressing, not you. You are only "aggressing" in self-defense. If the violent aggressor is stopped cold (on the ground rubbing his eyes), then there is no need for you to defend yourself, and hence in theory it doesn't matter much if you are also on the ground disabled temporarily. This theory could work in practice in a public area where undoubtedly someone will come to your aid soon; in a one-on-one isolated scenario, then whoever *recovers* first will win, which is a tossup.

It is unlikely that you will catch as much as your attacker will.

That being said, there are many people who can take a face full of pepper spray, and, while they will not be able to see, can still blindly attack with a knife or other weapon. Pepper spray is far from a guarantee of dropping someone to the ground, even for awhile.

I should think that in close quarters the crowbar would have the advantage.

My fencing days are way long ago, but as I recollect, the proper use of a long blade requires some space without walls and stuff to snag the blade.

I might be able to employ an épée (point-only weapon) in a confined space, but I'd feel pretty handicapped.

Up close a short cutlass or kuhkri or machete might fly.

Large bladed sword? Not so much.I think most any short sword would do well. I'd be hesitant on something like the machete against a large blunt weapon like a crowbar, I've seen alot of machetes that will simply bend or break against something like that.

But yes, a short sword is much preferable in a somewhat confined space like a home. Even if you have the room to swing a big sword, it still may not be your best bet. They were designed for armored opponents. They can cut through alot of stuff, but they are a slow weapon. If you miss someone the first time, if they can duck out of the way, there's a good chance that they can close that distance before you can swing again, and then even an attacker with a small knife could do you in.

[P97]

For me the Cane is the best choice for a close range weapon. If I don't have time to get my CCW in action, which you wont if someone attacks you from very close, the Cane is my next choice. I can be holding a Cane and be ready to defend myself without brandishing a weapon or threating someone. I can also take my Cane where I can't other weapons.

[JShirley]

I wouldn't suggest most people in this day and age keep a large blade for defense.

HOWEVER, even a large sword doesn't require "swinging" to be effective. A thrust does nicely, and the wider the blade, the more effective even a single thrust is. I am certain I have more experience than most here, but I can say even a spear would be useful inside, so a sword will be even more so.

Back in current reality-land, always try to think of tools that will keep attackers at distance.

John

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

So what do you think about the Assegai with a very short D-handled shovel handle on it instead of plain wood? Seems like it'd be quite a good thruster.

[mfcmb]

knives, swords, crowbars, canes (the kind with a U-shaped handle) and hammers all have the serious disadvantages for "untrained" people that they have irregular shapes and weight distributions and thus have to be held, swung and oriented skillfully to have effect.

Heavy, circular objects such as a heavy flashlight, length of pipe, walking stick (without an odd-shaped head) can easily and intuitively be swung with effective force by most untrained persons.

Long, straight objects such as a length of pipe or walking stick can also be used to block some kinds of attacks by holding near the ends, with reasonable effectiveness by untrained people.

Odd-shaped and oddly weighted objects take a lot of practice to grab in the right place, orient in the right way, swing properly, aim accurately and and hit forcefully.

For example, a sword can only be held at one end (not anywhere along its length like a pipe can), must be gripped correctly (with the hand in the proper place on the grip and with the blade rotated to align with the direction of swing), has to be swung such that the blade edge is aligned with the direction of movement, and must hit with the edge square to the target. It takes a lot of practice to do all that well even under controlled conditions; much less from an odd angle, on the spur of the moment, in reaction to an attack. Thus I would not recommend a sword as a good defensive implement for an untrained person.

On the other hand, there are lots of guys who have enough experience chopping wood or hacking brush with a machete that they probably have adequate "training" to use a machete with adequate skill, but nowhere near enough for, say, a samurai sword (which takes a lot of practice and a number of distinct skills to use effectively).

IMHO, FWIW

[hso]

For folks that suggest larger weapons it's advisable to get a simple wooden rod of the length of weapon you're proposing and try swinging it in the confines of your home. The limitations will become obvious pretty quickly. It's advantages for thrusting will become apparent also. Purchase and practice accordingly.

[JShirley]

but, again, it's wise to think of not only your action fantasy, but the aftermath. If a marginally less effective weapon will look much better to the police and/or a jury, choose accordingly.

John

[chuckusaret]

I have a fish bat that works well within a confined area, it also has a strap to secure it to your wrist. In the HOOD the baseball bat is the weapon of choice, after the handgun and knife, and has become a major problem for LE in many cities.

[curlyme]

lets start with lethality... if some one attacks you your life is more inportant than blood. one of my dads detectives shot a guy 13 times with .45 jhp to put him down. so a can will hurt but if your attacker is on dope the your screwed. when the person attacking you is on a drug the only option is to destroy his bodily functions. aka knife to the quad will stop every person on earth from walking or running at you of after you. a knife to the tendons in wrist and they can't hold any thing.... i suggest an m21 g10 for $50 bucks your good.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It may interest some to peruse my last post in this concurrent thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=484845

[John Matrix]

Before I owned any firearms, I used to keep this bad boy under our bed within easy reach. It is a great personal defense weapon for a couple of reasons:

1) I don’t think anyone has trained on how to defend against something like this for a few hundred years

2) I am so curious as to what would happen if I actually hit someone with it that all fear of home invasion left me. ;)

The picture of this really doesn’t do it justice – this thing is nasty.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s227/dr_kill/IMAGE_002.jpg

[ArfinGreebly]

Somehow that doesn't, uh, strike me as a weapon for confined spaces.

Don't you need a bit of room to swing that thing?

[John Matrix]

It's actually not too bad - I have practiced with it a little bit.

I figured I would have to be careful if I were in a hallway, but a pretty tight overhead strike is definately possible. The bedroom is more than open enough for this to work well. Just need the wife to stay back a distance.

[blindhari]

Gentelmen,
I Have an axe. Actually I have 5 axes. Four are Firestorm , model 1211 weigh under a pound and are right at 12" long. I have skinned muledeer and hog with a choke on the handle and using it as a knife. I have set up camp and used it as a hammer. I am a woodcarver and find a number of uses for it in rough shaping. They split kindling. There is one in each car as part of an emergency kit. You can stab with it, you can chop with it, you can bash with the back, once you have your hand on the handle it is almost impossible to take away from you, especially if you put on a lanyard strap. I can sink the blade wih one turn at thiry feet, it fits in a briefcase and weighs less than a S&W model 10. IT ONLY COSTS AROUND $35. If you like the cheap one try a model 1201 and prepare to fall in love all over again.

blindhari

[ArfinGreebly]

Who makes the Firestorm axe?

Is there a web site?

[janedoedad]

A can of Raid Wasp & Hornet Killer. This stuff has a stream range of about 20 feet and a good shot to the face will stop a bad guy in his tracks. Thus allowing you to take the hickory stick and vigorously subdue the aggressor.

Oven cleaner is also reputed to work, but requires you be much closer to the attacker.

[blindhari]

My apologies my axe is Firestone belt axe, not Firstorm. I must be feeling my age, Just google Firestone belt axe and you will be directed to web sight. It is a lot like a gransfor bruk carving axe but a lot less money and seems to work just about as well for my purpose. An axe has never been questioned as a part of my emergency kit for offroad or hiking, my short shotgun has been. Take a look and think about the possibilities.

blindhari

[ArfinGreebly]

Found it.

McGowan Manufacturing (http://www.mcgowanmfg.com/).

Their "Sportsman's Tools" page is here (http://www.mcgowanmfg.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=3).

Their "PocketAxe" is interesting . . .
108901

As is their "HandAxe" Model 1211 . . .
108902 -- 108904

Cutaway view of tang embedded in handle:
108903


Their BeltAxe, however . . . at $160 . . . had better be a serious piece of hardware.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

That axe does indeed look interesting.

Matrix, I like your weapon there - a morning star, is it called? Surely looks mean and intimidating. I agree that it wouldn't take a LOT of room to use it, but certainly some. One thing you could potentially do with a weapon like that for use in the home - just take out a few links from the chain to make that part shorter - you'd give up SOME momentum/effectiveness, but you'd gain several pluses: (a) ability to swing in more confined spaces like a hallway without hitting a wall, door jamb, ceiling fan, etc., (b) ability to swing more rapidly, and (c) [arguably most importantly] Reduced likelihood of complete incapacitation of your own weapon due to a possible "wrap effect" - i.e. if the chain were to completely wrap around the attacker's arm or his own weapon's, and then tie itself up and get stuck - then you're toast - the shorter the chain, the less likely that is to happen.


But, I still say that for home defense short of a firearm, you cannot beat the short or medium spear, such as my shovelassegai, for EITHER the trained or untrained, with the possible exception of a chisa katana in the hands of a *well-trained* weilder.


Thus allowing you to take the hickory stick and vigorously subdue the aggressor.

That made me laugh.

[hso]

If you haven't practiced extensively with a morning star you're about as much a danger to yourself as the BG. They're not easy weapons to use well.

[John Matrix]

Well regardless, I now have a .357 in a pistol safe in the bedroom for this duty. It is not nearly as cool, but should be much more effective.

[helz_mcfugly]

I have a heavy, 7 link chain in my car door pocket. I would think a hit from that would be like being hit by a freight train.

[zombiemaster]

Hungry pitt bull on long leash

[inkhead]

I'll take a 2x4 or a stick that is about an inch thick, but still has some give in it. The combination of it whipped to the side of the head, with a little give will make the blow lethal everytime.

You wouldn't believe the number of people that die from getting hit with a 2x4 every year.