What ammo is illegal and what is not?


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Dannix
October 9, 2009, 08:21 AM
I used to think AP was defined by material used, but of course some 5.56mm rounds have a steal penetrator. So what exactly are the laws? Isn't some minute level of explosive unrestricted as well (maybe I'm thinking incendiary)?

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Maelstrom
October 9, 2009, 08:43 AM
That definition is unique to handgun ammunition. Armor piercing handgun ammo is considered illegal.

BacSi67
October 9, 2009, 09:03 AM
Carrying hollow points in NJ except to the range and back and when purchasing same is illegal.
BacSi

TexasRifleman
October 9, 2009, 09:12 AM
Well here's the whole legal definition (Federal).

(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

TJ AK-74
October 9, 2009, 09:18 AM
It depends on your state. In some states HP, AP, API, Tracer, etc. are not allowed.

Superlite27
October 9, 2009, 01:08 PM
It depends on your state. In some states HP, AP, API, Tracer, etc. are not allowed.

Yeah. I guess you're only supposed to shoot people with those harmless bullets in these states. The one's listed might hurt someone.

ChronoCube
October 9, 2009, 01:21 PM
What is the definition of rifle vs handgun ammo anyway? There are pistol caliber carbines as well as 7.62x39/.223/.308 pistols....

rcmodel
October 9, 2009, 01:34 PM
The whole thing is a gray area of the law.
"Handgun" ammo is whatever the ATF says it is.

They stopped the importation of cheap Chinese 7.62x39 AP ammo because Olympic Arms made a couple of AK based pistols. But that had more to do with international politics then cop killer bullets.

On the otherhand, Thompson/Center and others make single-shot pistols that can and do fire 30-06 & .308 surplus AP ammo.
And they and others make 5.56 AR-15 pistols, although 5.56 AP ammo is not commonly available. However, any 5.56 FMJ or .223 hunting ammo will shoot through a typical bulletproof vest worn by cops.
And that is apparently not a problem!?

It seems the intent of the "cop-killer" law, if not the logic, pertained to typical handgun calibers likely to be used by gang-bangers and outlaws.

But again, the whole ban was more political then logical.

rc

22-rimfire
October 9, 2009, 01:42 PM
Generally for most states, armour piercing ammo is illegal although you can find it for sale from time to time. Shooting steel plates of various thickness is kind of interesting with AP ammo. It is quite amazing the thickness of steel a 30-06 round will penetrate. Not something most people need for day to day use.

Full metal jacketed (FMJ) ammo is often illegal for hunting.

Zak Smith
October 9, 2009, 02:14 PM
The definition in post #4 does not mean it is illegal to possess. Here is info on the federal AP law
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

In particular,

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's.

The link also goes into detail on what is and is not considered AP.

This is only in regards to the federal AP law. As mentioned, some states have their own funny ammo laws.

-z

KBintheSLC
October 9, 2009, 02:38 PM
The funny thing is that most of the 7.62x39 Wolf/Brown Bear/Golden Tiger ammo from Russia has a steel core, but is not considered AP. It sure does penetrate though.

Mainsail
October 9, 2009, 02:40 PM
I used to think AP was defined by material used, but of course some 5.56mm rounds have a steal penetrator.

Stealing ammunition is illegal.

fatelk
October 9, 2009, 03:14 PM
The funny thing is that most of the 7.62x39 Wolf/Brown Bear/Golden Tiger ammo from Russia has a steel core, but is not considered AP. It sure does penetrate though.

Steel jacket, not steel core. The reason a magnet sticks to the bullet is because the jacket itself is copper-plated steel. The core is lead.

Dannix
October 9, 2009, 05:17 PM
Sounds rather convoluted. Apparently you could have a pistol round with a small lead core, depleted uranium otherwise, with a thin copper jacket over that?

Got to love laws like this. At least they aren't completely 2ndA infringing.

inSight-NEO
October 9, 2009, 05:21 PM
To the OP- I would just check with your local ATF (and endure drudging through the legal babble).


Carrying hollow points in NJ except to the range and back and when purchasing same is illegal.

This is a shame.


(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Interesting. Im not up on specs, so tell me, would .45 ACP FMJ fall within this category I wonder?

Ive heard that some even consider JHP ammo to be "armor piercing" in nature! Bah...

I think the term "armor piercing" is almost as subjective as the term "assault rifle."

Either way, the "armor piercing" definition (by todays standards) is somewhat ridiculous as any current, high quality ballistic vest (used by LE) seems capable of absorbing/repelling most "typically" used loads - JHP or FMJ (specialty loads + various high power rifle loads notwithstanding). Also, unless Im wrong, certain "state of the art"/ "bleeding edge" military vests take this protection even further.

In essence, it seems as if the various "powers that be" need to begin adopting a mindset/set of "definitions" based on todays standards...not yesterdays.

Zoogster
October 9, 2009, 05:43 PM
It is another one of those ATF discretion areas.
It is illegal if they say it is illegal and it contains one of the mentioned materials.

Most traditional handgun calibers cannot have the listed materials. What would be thought of as rifle calibers are "handgun" calibers if the ATF decides they are. So it is up to them which rounds are legal that contain those materials, and which ones are illegal.
They can change thier mind, add or subtract calibers or specific rounds, and otherwise do as they wish.
Currently they exempt some rounds of certain calibers even though they may meet the legal definition, and the caliber is chambered in numerous handguns (such as 5.56x45). Yet another rifle caliber with far fewer handguns chambered in it will not be exempt.


So what it legal is what the ATF says is legal at the moment. You can usually find thier exemptions at any given time online.

Dannix
October 9, 2009, 07:09 PM
What got me curious was a statement here that in a bear attack a headshot with a pistol was futile due to the hard skull. My first thought was why not just load some AP rounds after a few initial HPs or FMJs.

It appears the "restricted" EBR rounds are restricted based on company policy and not federal policy?

chevyforlife21
October 9, 2009, 07:11 PM
most rifle ammo will pass through steel.

inSight-NEO
October 9, 2009, 07:34 PM
most rifle ammo will pass through steel.

So will .357 Magnum FMJ (to a degree). And your (subjective) point is?

I mean..."passing through steel"...Is that the gauge upon which "armor piercing capability" is measured these days? Im dubious about this.

Zoogster
October 9, 2009, 08:07 PM
It appears the "restricted" EBR rounds are restricted based on company policy and not federal policy?

If EBR is in reference to "evil black RIFLE" then no. EBR ammunition limitations are due to the ATF considering the calibers "handgun ammunition" once a handgun is produced that chambers those rounds. They have exceptions, like some 5.56x45 ammo for example, but if they declare it is handgun ammo then the rifle ammunition is subject to the federal handgun ammo limitations.
Handguns have been produced chambered in most intermediate EBR calibers. Making those calibers "handgun" calibers because the ATF says so. Except for specific rounds they give exemptions.

Any cartridge is a "handgun" cartridge once the ATF says so. Including .50 BMG if someone produces a commercial handgun in that cartridge.
Which is a big reason pistols like this have not been put into production:
http://californiahuntingtoday.com/hogblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/tripleaction50bmg1.jpg
Notice the cool recoil reduction technology on that. I would like to see such technology on other firearms.

In fact an anti could make all cartridges handgun ammunition just by creating a handgun in every caliber for sale.

22-rimfire
October 9, 2009, 09:54 PM
most rifle ammo will pass through steel.

It sure will. It depends on the thickness. How about 1/2" steel plate? or 3/4" steel plate? Not much will penetrate those kinds of things except AP ammo. As I recall, a 30-06 AP round just barely does not penetrate 3/4" steel plate.

Dannix
October 9, 2009, 10:56 PM
EBR = Engel Ballistic Research (http://www.ebr-inc.net/)
Maybe ATF considers .308, crazily, to be handgun ammo? ATF got a list somewheres?

TexasRifleman
October 9, 2009, 11:18 PM
ATF got a list somewheres?

Sort of:

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.
ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

Zoogster
October 10, 2009, 12:54 AM
Maybe ATF considers .308, crazily, to be handgun ammo?

They most certainly do.

As listed by Texas Rifleman all 7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP. rounds are considered subject to the handgun ammo law.

Keep in mind Texas Rifleman's list is far from complete, those are merely what is automatically considered AP. Any projectile which meets the definition of the law can also be subject to the federal ban.

So there is not really a specific list that encompasses everything. Generally if it is what you would likely consider a rifle caliber, they specifically mention it is included, otherwise it is not. However if it is what you would normally think of as a handgun caliber, then it is prohibited even without thier declaration of inclusion.


most rifle ammo will pass through steel.

The law is not really addressing armor in the military sense, but instead refers to soft body armor. Which makes it even more absurd, especially the inclusion of rifle rounds.
The law was passed in response to the hyped danger posed to police by KTW rounds. Rounds which were created for, and primarily marketed to and used by police. The media learned about them and dubbed them "cop killer bullets" even though they were not being used against LEO.

In fact most LEO at the time were not even known by the general public to be wearing body armor. So they were annoyed by the hype just as much because it educated the public of that fact, reducing the effectiveness of the body armor because criminals knew it was there.


Of course movies like the lethal weapon one that mentions them and shows the hero shooting through a bulldozer blade with the "cop killer bullets" doesn't help.

Zoogster
October 10, 2009, 12:57 AM
Either way, the "armor piercing" definition (by todays standards) is somewhat ridiculous as any current, high quality ballistic vest (used by LE) seems capable of absorbing/repelling most "typically" used loads - JHP or FMJ (specialty loads + various high power rifle loads notwithstanding). Also, unless Im wrong, certain "state of the art"/ "bleeding edge" military vests take this protection even further.

In essence, it seems as if the various "powers that be" need to begin adopting a mindset/set of "definitions" based on todays standards...not yesterdays.

Considering the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, laws that intentionally limit rounds that would be effective against enemy soldiers or agents of tyranny specifically go against the intent of the right.
When the Nazis conquered France, it was actually the French police that did most of thier dirty work. The same police that were in place before the Nazis, they simply had new leaders and new orders.They followed orders or they suffered the consequences from thier superiors.
French records of firearm ownership among other police records were also greatly utilized after the Nazi conquest.


However there is a very great potential in rounds made from such prohibited materials. You could even have expensive mechanical bullets, that start out small, and open up. For example a steel round with moving parts that has high penetration, but deploys razor sharp blades once inside the target in a diameter several times that of the bullet. Sorta like extending fins once inside the target. Such a round can be designed to maintain penetration (like sharp bladed fins), or create maximum resistance and wounding (like jagged shapes which mechanically extend).
I could design such a round easily using say a plunger or even a primer to provide the mechanical energy upon impact. Leave the front pointed and sharp for penetration, and have the round open from the back or sides rather than expand from the front like current rounds.
Giving both FMJ (or even AP if so designed) like penetration, and a wound profile greater than a JHP.

The complexity of the rounds would make them very expensive. Perhaps a couple dollars each projectile. With quality control increasing it further. But the effectiveness would far exceed any JHP. You could make 20-30 caliber handgun rounds perform like 50-70 caliber handgun rounds, while retaining the barrier penetration and capacity of the smaller round.

You could also design exact penetration into the round, by designing the round to deploy the razor blades or extend spikes after a specific period of elapsed time from impact. If you want 4 inches of pure penetration, and then 4 inches further of devastating wound channel after mechanical deployment, then that is what you get. Once there is mechanical deployment the drag will greatly increase slowing the round within the target (and increasing tissue damage), so it can be mathematically designed to give exact penetration and desired wounding.


You could create rounds that were many times more effective than anything in current use. Could punch through things like a small fast pointed round, and damage internals like a big fat expanding round. However you need to use hard materials in the construction of such a design because soft materials will deform too easily, freezing up the intricate mechanics during impact too readily.
Yet hard materials, such as common steel, are banned as "armor piercing."

Of course far less complex rounds like poison rounds using nerve toxins that effect the central nervous system of the target quickly, and explosive rounds that explode in the target, delivering far more energy than any expanding projectile are simple and even more effective at stopping the threat.
Capable of being produced far cheaper than a mechanical round like I described above.
In fact a projectile with the recoil of a 9mm can do damage like a rifle with an explosive payload.
Mainstream manufacturers could design such rounds to reliably detonate on impact. For example having a penetrating rod that acts like a firing pin in the front, and when the bullets begins to deform forces the rod into a primer like anvil, detonating the explosive payload. Creating reliable performance even against soft tissue.
Ammunition would become several times more effective overnight. A .22 would have the lethality and stopping power of a .50 projectile. A little old lady with severe arthritis that can only shoot a small round would have greater stopping power than any handgun round used today.
You could even combine the explosive and poison payloads, with the explosive payload distributing the poison throughout a portion of the torso instantly. Very incapacitating, stopping threats far quicker and far more reliably with lesser calibers. Of course as a side effect being almost impossible to survive. Even a negligent discharge into a leg would likely result in death.
However such technology in small arms rounds is also prohibited by law.

The laws keep ammunition using extremely outdated technology. To think people still rely on the expanding of a soft metal using only the energy imparted to the projectile to generate wounds from small projectiles in the 21st century.
Technology is far beyond that.
(Of course people wouldn't survive even gunshots from handguns much anymore, but they also wouldn't shoot back after getting shot much anymore either.)

JohnKSa
October 10, 2009, 01:01 AM
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.Courtesy of a single company who, against wise advice from multiple respected sources and contrary to numerous requests, decided to begin selling 7.62x39 pistols.

I agree that the BATF rules are often foolish, but when a company KNOWS in advance what the BATF is going to do and they go ahead and stick it to thousands of gun owners who have 7.62x39 rifles anyway that's pretty foolish too.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

Patnav
October 10, 2009, 01:17 AM
I remember when they outlawed KTW ammo here in California. I had over 50 rounds of 9mm and .45 ACP KTW that I had purchased at $1 a pop from a gun shop in San Francisco in the early 80's. When I tried to turn it in to the gun shop, they didn't want it and also told me not to surrender it to the cops because they felt the cops would put me on a "List of Gun Nuts." So I just went to another gun shop across The Bay and they happily took the rounds from me. I still had two boxes of Winschester .357 158 gr jacketed "Metal Piercing" (that's what it said on the box) ammo (pointed). When I asked a cop if it was illegal even though it wasn't on the "banned list" he told me just to be on the safe side, he'd gladly take it from me. End of illegal ammo.

doberman
October 10, 2009, 01:36 AM
Ok, I've read this thread and am a bit confused.

Sorry it's getting late.

In short...885/109 62gr .556NATO "green tip" ammo is illegal according to the ATF?

If so, why is it so available to purchase? I don't buy it because it's $$$.
Somebody clear this up for me please.

:confused::confused:

Zoogster
October 10, 2009, 01:46 AM
In short...885/109 62gr .556NATO "green tip" ammo is illegal according to the ATF?

If so, why is it so available to purchase? I don't buy it because it's $$$.
Somebody clear this up for me please.


No it is specifically exempted by the ATF, even though it would otherwise be illegal according to thier logic. It would be no different than the 7.62x39 ammo without the exemption.

Yet the ATF chose to exempt both it and some .30-06 AP ammo.

So what is legal, illegal, and which rifle calibers are subject to handgun laws is entirely at thier discretion.

They can change thier mind at any time, but as of now that ammo is exempted. Even though it is in fact considered handgun ammo based on thier logic due to AR pistols, and would otherwise be no different than the AK pistols, which they have ruled do make 7.62x39 ammunition subject to the federal ban on handgun ammo.


It does not make sense, don't try to make sense of it. It boils down to ATF discretion. They currently feel like exempting SS109 and M855, so those projectiles do not follow the same ban logic of all the other rifle turned handgun banned projectiles.
Some rifle rounds are handgun rounds based on a logic given by the ATF, unless exempted from that logic by the ATF.

The ATF decides which projectiles are legal and which are not, for rifle and handgun calibers, through thier interpretation of the law. Subject to reinterpretation or removal or granting of exemptions at any time.

ScottG1911
October 10, 2009, 01:56 AM
The way I understand it, on the explosives part, it is legal to manufacture explosives for personal use. you cannot sell them, you must use it relativly immediatly, and cannot transport it (so it must be made and used on location) I.E. Tannerite, 4 non-explosive powders, the user combines to make an explosive. the same concept works on firearms, you can build a rifle or handgun and it's perfectly legal. people dont realize it, but think, it's legal to build fireworks. making the flash powder in fireworks is building a high explosive (Det 18,000fps). you just cant abuse the explosive, no blowing ****e up that you aint supposed too

doberman
October 10, 2009, 01:58 AM
TY Zoo:)

gyvel
October 10, 2009, 08:48 PM
:Shooting steel plates of various thickness is kind of interesting with AP ammo.

It's interesting until the jacket somehow defies the laws of physics and (apparently) compresses, then decompresses like an accordion, comes flying straight back at you, misses your right eye by an inch or so and ends up firmly lodged in your buddy's (who was kneeling behind you, looking down the barrel of your Garand) midriff "spare tire" fat ring, coring it like an apple.:what:

Redneck with a 40
October 10, 2009, 09:14 PM
I can buy 62 grain SS-109 bullets to load in .223, they are steel core, pretty sure they would be AP bullets. I've got a thousand of'em.:)

gym
October 10, 2009, 09:55 PM
Super vels, were illegal the exploding kind. They were sold in gun stores in the late mid to late 70's. Had yellow plastic over the jhp, inside was another primer. They were purchased by me in the years prior to the attempt on Our President, and made illegal after. The problem was that no one told us, and there was no internet. This caused an awful lot of problems at the time for lots of folks who bought them legally in gun stores as self defense ammo.

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2009, 10:05 PM
Super vels, are illegal. They were sold in gun stores in the late mid to late 70's.

I don't believe Super Vel's were ever illegal. If I remember right the IRS shut them down for not paying income taxes. Either than or some other type of lawsuit. Can't remember for certain.

I see boxes of the stuff sell to collectors now and then for silly amounts of money, would have to see it in writing before I believe they are illegal. Never seen that anywhere before.

Sure you're not thinking of KTW?

I can buy 62 grain SS-109 bullets to load in .223, they are steel core, pretty sure they would be AP bullets.

SS109 bullets are specifically named as NOT being considered AP.

gym
October 10, 2009, 10:13 PM
Well I had to spend a year and a half in NYC court, in order to get my guns and license back. The only thing that saved me was the original receipt from when and where I bought the pistol and ammo, That proved that when I purchased the ammo, it was legal. I had to get a lawyer and it cost me a couple of thousand dollars "back then" to get everything straightened out. A curious rookie had asked me for my license during an altercation in my lobby. I had nothing to do with it, but he saw my gun print. Long story short they got curious about the ammo and came back and asked me for my pistols. In NYC your license has your guns, "usually only one", "I had two,"serial number, make and model on it".

NukemJim
October 11, 2009, 01:36 AM
Zooggster, in reference to Of course far less complex rounds like poison rounds using nerve toxins that effect the central nervous system of the target quickly

Could you please specify exactly what kind of poison would give the effect you describe.

Thank you
NukemJim

Dannix
October 14, 2009, 09:41 AM
B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."
Why isn't anyone selling bullets that simply do not meet the "constructed entirely" bit? Simply throw in 3% of another suitable element and have a thin copper jacket. Surely there is a market for it considering some of the unusual rounds out there.

Jim Watson
October 14, 2009, 10:05 AM
A jacket is not a loophole, the law specifically calls out "projectile core."

Adding some other "suitable element" probably would not work, either. About any predominantly copper alloy is going to be listed as a brass or bronze, for example. Even if you found some combination that would take it beyond the textbook definition, and it came to the attention of the authorities, you would get to pay the lawyer and expert witnesses to explain it to the judge.

There are some materials not on the list that would give AP performance but have disadvantages like extremely high cost or weird machining requiremements. They would still likely get you thrashed through the legal system at your expense, though.

As to zoogster's magic bullets, the CIA developed the T1 fletchette loaded with E1 shellfish toxin (or was that the other way 'round?) to be fired from a weapon that looked like a target pistol but was probably pneumatic. Said to feel like a mosquito bite to the target and kill in about 10 minutes. Something like a military nerve agent would be faster - the CIA wanted low detectability, not speed - but would still not amount to the stopping power you want in a sidearm.

I don't think you can pack enough high explosive and a fuze into a standard caliber bullet to outweigh the kinetic energy of the projectile itself. Now if you wanted to build something like a .68 paintball full cyclonite or something even hotter...

I believe it was SF author Christopher Anvil who described the XX projectile, explosive and toxic.

zchannel
October 30, 2009, 10:58 AM
I am new to this site but found it because I wanted to research .30-06 AP ammo that a friend wants to sell in CA. I had a 25 year career in the steel business and a dealer many years ago asked me to get some samples of AR Plate, called abrasive resistant plate, used in mining primarily. These are heat treated plates in various BHN's (Brinnell Hardness Numbers) from 200 to 500. T-1 Plate has a 325 BHN but other alloys in it. It is considered armor plate, but is not the hardest out there. 500 BHN was at the time. 44 mag HP penetrated A-36, aka mild steel, at the time but not all the way through 1/2". It left craters the size of the expanded bullet. Nothing happened to the 360 or 500 BHN plates. They didn't test with a rifle round at the time because of potential ricochet problems.

Has anyone tested AR plate with a BHN of 325 or higher with a .30-06 AP round? It seems that it is legal to buy or sell surplus based on what is posted.

In CA no range will allow ammo which attracts a magnet due to potential fire concerns and AP ammo would just tear up their metal targets so possessing AP rounds have limited usefulness here.

hammerklavier
October 30, 2009, 11:22 AM
So I guess casting your own bronze bullets is out :)

CoRoMo
October 30, 2009, 01:37 PM
What ammo is illegal and what is not?:what:

I can't imagine that it would be practical, or even possible, to give you a list of all the different types of ammo that are legal. Basically, all ammo that is not prohibited.:D

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 31, 2009, 01:17 AM
So why is DPX not illegal?

Sunray
October 31, 2009, 01:52 AM
Somewhere on the ATF's site there's a list of what AP ammo is allowed and what is not. Had it bookmarked but they changed the page. Any 5.56 AP is evil as I recall. As is any .308/7.62NATO AP ammo. Steel jacketed ammo is NOT AP.
"....30-06 AP ammo..." Legal Federally, but may not be in CA. You get to comply with Federal, State and sometimes municipal law.
"...why is DPX not illegal?..." Isn't AP for one. It's a solid copper bullet. "Corbon’s DPX line is now a California non-lead certified Ammunition*".

Shadow 7D
October 31, 2009, 02:10 AM
So what happens if the ninnys in ********** make lead pollution a crime and ban lead bullets without proper enviro permit? I understand that it'll stick to the gun owners more, but what happens frangible only, do you get something like DPX OKed?

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 31, 2009, 02:34 AM
Not what I asked, sunray:

I mean, did the ATF test the beryllium content of the copper used in DPX?

Prince Yamato
October 31, 2009, 03:00 PM
The only thing that makes me mad is that steel core ammo is cheaper than regular ammo (or at least it was). And now, we're paying more because of the type of metal a bureaucratic agency says is acceptable to be fired out of a gun... crazy.

KJS
November 1, 2009, 01:20 AM
Carrying hollow points in NJ except to the range and back and when purchasing same is illegal.

What is the reasoning behind that law? Aren't hollow points supposed to be safer in the sense they are less likely to blow a hole through the bad guy or an interior wall, inadvertently striking an innocent person?

And what the purpose of hollow points on a shooting range in that law? Does a target care if it gets shot with a FMJ instead of a HP?

KJS
November 1, 2009, 01:23 AM
Armor piercing handgun ammo is considered illegal.

Wouldn't most centerfire rifle ammo be armor piercing if the armor in question is a standard bullet proof (or rather bullet resistant) vest worn by ordinary cops?

bigalexe
November 1, 2009, 08:51 PM
Could you please specify exactly what kind of poison would give the effect you describe.

Curare based toxins, however they affect the acetylcoline production of the body and as such can be easily countered with Pyridostigmine. I know this from having a medical condition that required me to take that drug just btw.

barnetmill
November 1, 2009, 09:03 PM
If the ATF judges that rifle ammo can be used in a pistol, than at their discretion they may declare any armor piecing ammo in that caliber to be illegal to manufacture or sell for civilians. What is armor piecing depends on the amount in the jacket and core of hard metals like steel and depleted uranium, tungsten etc. Currently according to the ATF if I am still update 30-06 armor piecing is legal and .308 is not. .223 with a steel penetrator is legal.

benEzra
November 1, 2009, 09:13 PM
I can buy 62 grain SS-109 bullets to load in .223, they are steel core, pretty sure they would be AP bullets.
Actually, SS109/M855 is lead-core with a teeny steel cap, is classified as regular non-AP ball by both the military and BATFE, and actually has somewhat less penetration in metal than M193 55gr FMJ at close range due to its lower initial velocity. M855/SS109 penetrates better at long range only because of its better sectional density, allowing it to hold on to its velocity better, not because of any AP qualities.

Neo-Luddite
November 2, 2009, 09:47 AM
...and .30 M2AP in .30/06 is legally *NOT* AP per ATF; in spite of the fact it is a serious AP round for a shoulder fired weapon.

Now, have the same projectile in a 7.62 NATO case and--presto--you have a 'real deal' AP cartridge (per ATF).



The LONG story gets long, but that tidbit illustrates the point.

benEzra
November 2, 2009, 11:08 AM
...and .30 M2AP in .30/06 is legally *NOT* AP per ATF; in spite of the fact it is a serious AP round for a shoulder fired weapon.
Well, it's AP, it's just not AP handgun ammunition (the 1986 AP ban applies only to handgun ammo, and BATFE considers .30-06 to not fall into that category). Steel-core 7.62x39mm and tungsten-core 5.56x45mm/.223 and 7.62x51/.308 are considered AP handgun ammunition by the BATFE, but .30-06 is not.

.223/5.56x45 is considered handgun ammo and subject to the ban, but M855/SS109 is not banned because it's not AP, just regular ball.

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