Handgun ammo under CA AB962?


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Guy B. Meredith
October 9, 2009, 06:55 PM
Anyone clear as to whether this bill would control reloading components? The first reference is to ammunition that would be used in a handgun in a generic sense. A later sections define ammo as:

"shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence."

but it appears this is being narrowly applied to that small section of the code. If not, then purchasing even bullets via mail will be out. I don't think that is the intent, but I am anticipating some vendors will be playing it safe.

By the way, where are these turk.., uh, folks getting their information to say that speed loaders, clips and magazines are ammo?

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Legasat
October 9, 2009, 07:59 PM
The general consensus is that it does cover reloading supplies.

No more buying over the Internet. FTF only. :cuss:

Jon Coppenbarger
October 9, 2009, 08:15 PM
we have homes here in colorado for sale. I left california 11 years ago and really enjoy buying a firearm and ammunition and get to take it home with me.

outerlimit
October 9, 2009, 10:13 PM
This law is absolute insanity. I have heard that if the Governor doesn't veto it, it will become law on October 11th, is this correct?

Guy B. Meredith
October 9, 2009, 10:28 PM
Yeah. At the Federal level we have the pocket veto-no sign, no pass. In CA must be vetoed or passes.

sniper5
October 9, 2009, 10:48 PM
Rats, if this passes that's another fee to get a COE. Interesting they can create another huge paperwork mess and licensing scam when the budget is supposedly so tight. But then we know politicians are liars and posers. That's why actors do so well at it. They do make believe for a living.

outerlimit
October 9, 2009, 10:57 PM
That sounds like California though doesn't it? Create another bureaucracy on top of a huge mess of them that aren't working either. And if something doesn't get vetoed it just automatically becomes law. :scrutiny:

Guy B. Meredith
October 9, 2009, 11:17 PM
Okay, so much for speculation. Where are our resident legal eagles?

TexasRifleman
October 9, 2009, 11:36 PM
Anyyone clear as to whether this bill would control reloading components?


It appears to but it's a horribly written piece of junk, clearly written by someone who has NO idea how firearms work.. The definitions they use for "ammunition" says:

“ammunition” shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence.

To me that seems to cover bullets, magazines, and loaded cartridges et but it doesn't mention primers, powder or empty brass, just bullets.

Goes on to say "ammunition" does not include blanks to again primers, powder, and brass don't seem to be included, only bullets.

Librarian
October 10, 2009, 01:59 AM
Okay, so much for speculation. Where are our resident legal eagles? At Calguns where we usually are.

In short, NO, reloading components would not be regulated.

Start here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=221417&page=6) and read down to 109 and following.

JimmAr
October 10, 2009, 06:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cyww1oDuTU

34k views in 5 days.. we got alot of help from his video.. I sent mine in did you?

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2009, 08:56 AM
In short, NO, reloading components would not be regulated.

That's not what it says. It says that bullets DO become regulated in that they would now be classified as ammunition so the projectile itself could not be sold to prohibited persons.

What this means from a practical standpoint is discussed in the Calguns thread, that many vendors may simply implement a "No Sales to California" rule rather than worry about it.

Right now, "ammunition" means what we would traditionally think of it to be. This new law includes just the bullet, or even a Garand en bloc clip.

If you sell a box of junk at a garage sale with 1 en bloc clip in it you now have a responsibility to use "reasonable care" that you are not selling to a prohibited person.
A jewelry store that sells a bullet keychain has to use "reasonable care" that they are not selling to a prohibited person, if you take this to it's defined extreme.

And of course they leave out blanks so as not to upset the Hollywood types, who depend on firearms to make their movies.

This part discusses the selling:

SEC. 6. Section 12317 is added to the Penal Code, to read:
12317. (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies,
delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to
any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know
is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her
custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to
paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty
of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars
($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(b) The provisions of this section are cumulative and shall not be
construed as restricting the application of any other law. However,
an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and
another provision of law shall not be punished under more than one
provision.
(c) For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but
not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.


This part discusses the possessing:

(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence.

So again using the Garand, this makes a criminal out of someone with an en bloc clip in their garage, if they are a prohibited person. Or even a bullet keychain.

Librarian
October 10, 2009, 01:22 PM
That's not what it says. It says that bullets DO become regulated in that they would now be classified as ammunition so the projectile itself could not be sold to prohibited persons.

What this means from a practical standpoint is discussed in the Calguns thread, that many vendors may simply implement a "No Sales to California" rule rather than worry about it.


12317 is a proposed new section, companion to 12316. 12316 makes it a crime for prohibited persons to have/possess components etc. 12317 would make it a crime to sell those components to prohibited persons.

But the major thrust of this idiotic bill, as now amended, is to require face-to-face sales of handgun ammunition - and reloading components are not handgun ammunition as defined.

So, in theory, out of state vendors should feel free to sell such things to us in CA. In practice, I agree that your speculation is quite likely - they'll figure the laws are too screwy and not take the risk.

Guy B. Meredith
October 10, 2009, 01:39 PM
Rifleman,

The regulation against selling bullets to prohibited persons (felons, minors, etc.) is part of the original penal code--no change with AB 962.

The preface to the phrase

""ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence. isting of says that the regulation of bullets, et al, applies only to the section regarding prohibited persons."

says that this definition is for section 12316 and is used in section 12317 as well.

Ammo used in rifles is not regulated as long as it is not to be used in handguns.

The definition in the AB962 portion for ammo being purchased by the rest of us is in subdivision (a) of Section 12323 which says "(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles."

So minors, bad guys and all are committing a misdemeanor for having bullets, clips, whatever.

I am concerned that vendors where I buy bullets might have issues with California sales.

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2009, 01:46 PM
So minors, bad guys and all are committing a misdemeanor for having bullets, clips, whatever.

Yes but after this law it will be a crime to be the SELLER of those items without taking "reasonable care" that the purchaser is not a prohibited person.

As Librarian says in his post over there

the distinction: existing 12316 makes it a crime for the ineligible person; proposed 12317 makes it a crime to sell to those ineligible persons

Personally I think that will be a lot bigger pain than it sounds at first glance. It may cause sellers to abandon the California market completely.

That's where the problem comes in as companies might decide to simply stop selling some items rather than worry about getting entangled in some mess because they sold some item to a prohibited person.

So it might not seem a big deal on the legal side, but if it causes sellers to stop doing business there it will have quite an impact on prices and availability of components I would think.

But I'm just an outsider watching all this, hoping that it doesn't happen to you guys at all.

Guy B. Meredith
October 10, 2009, 01:48 PM
JimmAr,

Three FAXes to the governor.

Guy B. Meredith
October 10, 2009, 01:52 PM
Ammo manufacturers currently selling through California retailers will feel no effect.

Vendors selling ammo by mail will be affected, eliminating price competition for local retailers.

Component vendors are not affected, but may be hesitant.

alistaire
October 10, 2009, 02:14 PM
(c) For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but
not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.

Since a pebble can be fired from a gun with 'deadly consequence'. Gravel is now going to be illegal in the great land of Marx.

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