7mm Rem. Mag and Winchester Supreme 780


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ojibweindian
October 10, 2009, 10:09 AM
All

Just thought I'd post data I've collected; I've been roaming to and fro on the 'net and have noticed that there's not a lot of data concerning 780 and the 7mm Rem. Mag.

Powder: Winchester Supreme 780
Bullet: 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt
Primers: CCI 250 and WLR

Shot strings consist of 5 rounds.

Using a WLR:
59.0 grains - 1.34"
59.5 grains - 1.63"
60.0 grains - 3.02"
60.5 grains - 1.47"
61.0 grains - 2.56"
61.5 grains - 2.86"

Using a CCI 250:
63.9 grains - 1.83"
64.3 grains - 1.71"
64.7 grains - 2.75"
65.1 grains - 1.44"

I've a few more loads with the CCI 250; 65.5 grains, 65.9 grains, 66.3 grains, and 66.7 grains.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the 65.1 grain load as 1.44" for a 5 shot group using a Core-Lokt bullet is pretty good. A Core-Lokt has a great reputation as a hunting bullet, but it's not a Match King by any stretch of the imagination. Anyway, I might start playing with seating depth to see if I can tighten things up a bit, but there's no hurry. And I'd like to see how my final four loads perform first.

So, there ya go. As I learn more about 780, I'll dump the data on this thread.

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ants
October 10, 2009, 01:06 PM
So you figure that the higher performance is due to the magnum primer? Or the higher powder charges? Or both?

Using a rifle rest of some sort?

I'm waiting for more reports on Supreme 780 for 30 caliber magnums. But keep reporting your findings in 7mm. I am certainly interested. Do you have a chronograph? It would be interesting to compare to other powders. And are your groups similar with other powders, or is 780 outperforming the others?

ojibweindian
October 10, 2009, 04:01 PM
ants

Actually, I get better accuracy results from 60.7 grains of RL-19, touched off with a WLR primer. I'm using a different bullet, though. The bullet is a "blemished bullet" I bought from MidwayUSA a few years ago. Bought a couple of thousand because they were REALLY cheap, about 10 buck per 100. Using that bullet and RL-19 gives me a 5 shot group of 0.712" at 100 yards, but it doesn't open up on deer like the Core-Lokt does. Every Core-Lokt I've sent towards a deer has dropped it on the spot, with a pretty good sized exit wound.

For hunting purposes, I'll give up a bit of accuracy for a bullet that drops them right then.

ants
October 11, 2009, 01:03 PM
For hunting purposes, I'll give up a bit of accuracy for a bullet that drops them right then. Me too!
RL19 works well in 300 Weatherby mag, RL22 works even better.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2009, 09:58 PM
Well, I've completed more load testing with Supreme 780. 65.5 grains and 65.9 grains of 780, with a 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt, and a CCI 250 primer gave groups of 0.55" and 0.59", respectively. Groups really starting opening up with charge weights greater than 65.9 grains.

I'm going to shoot several more groups using those two powder weights to gather more data points for analysis.

ants
November 5, 2009, 10:25 PM
What's the velocity at 65.5g?

ojibweindian
November 8, 2009, 09:20 AM
ants

I don't have a chronograph, so I have no idea. The 65.5 grain and 65.9 grain loads are a few grains below the max of 68.0 grains. I'm assuming that velocities for these two loads are in the neighborhood of 2,900 fps. Maybe a little more than that.

ojibweindian
November 20, 2009, 04:38 PM
Well, spent a few hours at the range today and shot some more of my 65.5 grain load of 780. Was really checking for zero on the rifle as opening day of Alabama's deer season is tomorrow.

Anyways, shot one group, just to make sure all was well, and it was. A 1.18" group sighted in a 2" at 100 yards. I must say that 780 and my Weatherby seem to be getting along rather well together :D

ojibweindian
July 20, 2010, 11:19 AM
Took the Big 7 out to the range this past Sunday for grins and giggles. A few 3-shot groups with my 65.5 grain load of Supreme 780 averaged 0.59" at 100 yards.

It was a good day, as the Big 7 performed a bit better than normal.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2011, 08:22 AM
It's been a while since posting anything concerning my experiences with Supreme 780 and my 7mm Rem. Mag. Anyway, I went to the range a few weeks ago to dial in the Vanguard for Alabama's upcoming deer season. My load, to restate, is a 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt over 65.5 grains of 780 touched off with a CCI 250.

I first zeroed the rifle at approximately 25 yards (paced off). I then moved the target stand to 100 yards (again, paced off). The load, at 100 yards, printed close to 3" high, give or take 0.1". Groups were a bit bad, at 1.8", most likely because of the variable winds blowing at around 5 - 15 mph. I don't do well at reading variable winds.

When I got home, I used an online ballistics calculator (JBM) to get some sort of an idea of the load's muzzle velocity, energy, and trajectory out to 300 yards. As an aside, a 300 yard shot at a deer here in Alabama is a rare thing; all my deer have been shot at less than 150 yards. The foliage at Skyline and the Bankhead are pretty dense, and the terrian is rather steep.

To continue, I plugged in the 25 yard zero, the BC, weight, diameter, and wind speed, then played with the velocity parameter until the results displayed a 3" high point of impact at 100 yards. According to the results, my 65.5 grain load is roughly pushing 3150 fps at the muzzle. A bit faster than I expected.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2011, 08:45 AM
Oh, I did the same thing with another load, 60.9 grains of RL-19, a WLR, and a 150 grain blemished bullet (I guessed the BC). Again, it was zeroed at 25 yards, and printed about 2.6" high at 100 yards. This load seems to have a muzzle velocity of around 2750 - 2800 fps.

NCsmitty
November 5, 2011, 09:55 AM
Thanks for posting your experience with the 7mm ReMag, ojibweindian.
I'm a firm believer in using magnum primers in workups, with large doses of ball powder.

Your load of Rel-19 appears a little low, and you seem to have room to improve on that one, should you so choose.

The 7mm Remag is a great cartridge and works well at 40yds or 400yds, especially when you're using a quality bullet.


NCsmitty

gamestalker
November 5, 2011, 02:05 PM
What distance are those groups from?

I've been using RL22 with excellent results, but I'm as well always interested in a potential substitute or addition to my 7 mag world. Currently I'm getting consistent Sub MOA groups at 100 yds using just about any bullet with RL22 in generous amounts. So far the only bullet that has never performed well for me is the 100 gr. Seirra HP, even at low velocities it won't hold a group of better than 1.77" @ 100 yds. In comparison a varmit bullet that is really shinning for me is the 115 gr. TNT, at velocities below 3400 fps though.

Blue68f100
November 5, 2011, 03:59 PM
I started reloading for the Rem 7mm Mag in the 70's. Back then you did not have a lot of selection as you do now. The load I developed with IMR4350 and Serria 160gr SPBT produced 1 ragged hole at 100 yrds in my Rem 700 BDL and by brother's M77. Factory ammo back then was not near as good as it is today. Back then if your got 1 MAO you were lucky, normally it was around 1.5 MOA. I have never shot any other bullets or powder so it's nice seeing what others are doing. I prefer ball powders but the 4350 has proven it was good choice. Since I'm near max I weight out all of my loads so dispenser accuracy does not come into play. I have about shot up all that I loaded back then and will need to be reloading some more in the near future. Shooting 1 round a year a box lasts a long time.... I may be using this gun for the wild hogs. I want have to worry about under penetration with it.

A MAG Primer is a must when it comes to lighting off large amounts of powder and slow burning powders.

Keep up the good work, you will find that magic load that works with your gun.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2011, 04:22 PM
Thanks for posting your experience with the 7mm ReMag, ojibweindian.
I'm a firm believer in using magnum primers in workups, with large doses of ball powder.

Your load of Rel-19 appears a little low, and you seem to have room to improve on that one, should you so choose.

The 7mm Remag is a great cartridge and works well at 40yds or 400yds, especially when you're using a quality bullet.


NCsmitty
You're welcome.

Yeah, that RL-19 load is a bit weak for the Big 7, but it really does perform well on paper. I generally get right around an inch with it, sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse. Essentially, it's a rough equivalent of a 280 Remington load. It does a pretty good job at dropping deer, too.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2011, 04:23 PM
What distance are those groups from?

I've been using RL22 with excellent results, but I'm as well always interested in a potential substitute or addition to my 7 mag world. Currently I'm getting consistent Sub MOA groups at 100 yds using just about any bullet with RL22 in generous amounts. So far the only bullet that has never performed well for me is the 100 gr. Seirra HP, even at low velocities it won't hold a group of better than 1.77" @ 100 yds. In comparison a varmit bullet that is really shinning for me is the 115 gr. TNT, at velocities below 3400 fps though.
100 yards.

ojibweindian
November 5, 2011, 04:32 PM
Just got back from the range today, both to reconfirm zero on my "goto" deer loads, and to do a bit of work-up on another bullet.

This time around, I used the 150 grain blemished bullet I bought from Midway eons ago, a CCI 250 primer, assorted cases (fully resized), and graduated charges of Supreme 780

I started off at 63.9 grains of 780, and worked up to 65.5 grains, in 0.4 grain increments. I shot 5 three shot strings at a distance of 100 yards, on sandbags:

Date Powder Charge Wt. Bullet Bullet Wt Primer Case Group Distance

11/05/11 Supreme 780 63.9 Blemish 150 CCI250 Assorted 2.66 100
11/05/11 Supreme 780 64.3 Blemish 150 CCI250 Assorted 2.38 100
11/05/11 Supreme 780 64.7 Blemish 150 CCI250 Assorted 0.84 100
11/05/11 Supreme 780 65.1 Blemish 150 CCI250 Assorted 1.91 100
11/05/11 Supreme 780 65.5 Blemish 150 CCI250 Assorted 0.99 100

I think the 64.7 grain load shows a bit of promise. Also, I find it interesting that 65.5 grains is roughly just as accurate as the 65.5 grain Core-Lokt load.

gamestalker
November 6, 2011, 10:51 AM
Yes, 100 yds. is where I start with all new bullets and loads so I don't waste components. Once I'm certain of a bullets worthy groups at 100 yds. I then step out to 300 yds. But once I've determined the POI at 100 yds., I ultimately zero at 300 yds. because that is where my velocity begins to best corespond with the BDC program in my RX-IV.

ojibweindian
January 2, 2012, 09:37 AM
More fun with my Weatherby 7RM and Supreme 780. I think I've confirmed a pretty good load using a 150 blemished spire point (from Midway). Load consists of 64.7 grains of 780, a CCI 250, and assorted cases. Three shot groups at 100 yards are averaging 0.79". I'm going to wring this load out a bit more, with 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I'm also curious to see how this load performs at distances out to 300+ yards.

Also, I've been expirimenting with a 162 grain Hornady SPBT. So far, no good. I started out at 61.6 grains of 780, moving up in 0.5 grain increments. Last load I was able to test was 62.6 grains of 780. There are some encouraging signs, though. As I moved up the ladder, groups shrank. The 62.6 grain load, the best so far with the 162 grain Hornady SPBT, printed at 2.17" at 100 yards. I've got another three loads (63.1, 63.6, and 64.1) to test, and I'm hoping that one of the three give me a sub-MOA result.

Another thing. Hodgdon's PDF data shows that I should be using a WLR primer with 780 in developing loads for the Big 7. If my remaining three 162 Hornady loads, which will be touched off by a CCI 250, are disappointing, I'll switch primers to WLR or CCI 200 and see what happens.

Skyshot
January 2, 2012, 10:19 AM
That's some good info, my 7mag shoots it's best with a load of 63. grains of IMR7828 and a federal 215Macth primer and a 160 gr. Nosler Accubond it's always sub 1/2 MOA with 5 shot groups. As far as 150 gr. bullets they seem to be at thier best IMR4831 or N160 and likes most 150 grain bullets I just can't get the 1/2 MOA like the 160 does.

ojibweindian
January 2, 2012, 02:51 PM
That's some good info, my 7mag shoots it's best with a load of 63. grains of IMR7828 and a federal 215Macth primer and a 160 gr. Nosler Accubond it's always sub 1/2 MOA with 5 shot groups. As far as 150 gr. bullets they seem to be at thier best IMR4831 or N160 and likes most 150 grain bullets I just can't get the 1/2 MOA like the 160 does.
What's your velocity with the 7828 load?

Blue68f100
January 2, 2012, 04:21 PM
Nice work.

Have you tried varying the OAL to see if your group would drop from the 0.78" ? Normally once I find the powder charge I start playing with the OAL. I make 0.010" incremental changes working back from max (0.010" off lands).

btw, I would suggest using Mag primers on the 7mm mag. Slow burn powders just burns cleaner using one.

gamestalker
January 2, 2012, 04:55 PM
Warning!
The data listed in this post is at, or above, the maximum published data. Do not consider my loads to be a short cut to a proper, and safe, load developement process.

The 7 mag. has been one of my pet cartridges for a long time and some of your observations are consistent with mine. I don't load with 780, I use RL22 instead, but still, I have much in common with you in regard to the results. I've been running 139 gr. - 145 gr. standard production bullets most of the time, Sierra's, Hornady, Speer, and Nosler and have found that they will all produce very good groups when my powder charge is up near or above max if the bullets are seated to / into the lands, using CCI-250's, and mixed head stamps necked, and, or, partial FL ( shoulder's maintained ) sized.

Any more I don't start my load developement below mid data range, it's just a waste of good powder and bullets. I wasn't surprised last year when I was working up a load for a 130 gr. Speer BT and started the RL22 load at 70.0 grains. I was consistenly shooting sub MOA groups right from the get go.

Your post has made me want to give that 780 a try. Good stuff you posted here, and thanks!

Skyshot
January 3, 2012, 08:12 AM
What's your velocity with the 7828 load?
2960's with the 160 Accubonds, which I think are just a tab bit more consistant than 62.5 grns. hope you can see the link. http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=138045&d=1299796102

ojibweindian
January 3, 2012, 09:17 PM
Nice work.

Have you tried varying the OAL to see if your group would drop from the 0.78" ? Normally once I find the powder charge I start playing with the OAL. I make 0.010" incremental changes working back from max (0.010" off lands).

btw, I would suggest using Mag primers on the 7mm mag. Slow burn powders just burns cleaner using one.
I haven't played with OAL yet. I will, though, just to see what happens.

ojibweindian
January 3, 2012, 09:18 PM
Warning!
The data listed in this post is at, or above, the maximum published data. Do not consider my loads to be a short cut to a proper, and safe, load developement process.

The 7 mag. has been one of my pet cartridges for a long time and some of your observations are consistent with mine. I don't load with 780, I use RL22 instead, but still, I have much in common with you in regard to the results. I've been running 139 gr. - 145 gr. standard production bullets most of the time, Sierra's, Hornady, Speer, and Nosler and have found that they will all produce very good groups when my powder charge is up near or above max if the bullets are seated to / into the lands, using CCI-250's, and mixed head stamps necked, and, or, partial FL ( shoulder's maintained ) sized.

Any more I don't start my load developement below mid data range, it's just a waste of good powder and bullets. I wasn't surprised last year when I was working up a load for a 130 gr. Speer BT and started the RL22 load at 70.0 grains. I was consistenly shooting sub MOA groups right from the get go.

Your post has made me want to give that 780 a try. Good stuff you posted here, and thanks!
You're welcome :D

Clark
January 3, 2012, 09:51 PM
I am a big fan of the 7mmRM for long range hunting.

I have drifted away from Re22 and have gone to the temp stable Hodgdon powder H4350.

I have moved away from the 180 gr VLD because it was not stable at long range in my barrels, and back to the Ballistic Tip bullets for 2011. I may get a faster twist barrel in 2012 and try the 180 VLD again. I did kill 3 animals in 2010 with the 180 VLD, but I had real problems with it.

Skyshot
January 4, 2012, 06:33 PM
Sorry, my last post was a bit confusing even after I read again. What we found in testing was the 62.5 grn load was not consistant at temps below 20 degrees F.( even with mag primers ) so we bump it up to 63. grains still had the same accuracy and velocities were very close shot to shot. I shoot a REM700 and my two buddies shoot a Savage 110 and a Weatherby, we have a lot of variance between those three rifles as far as AOL is concerned. They seem to do best between .010 and .018 off the lands. Taken a lot of whitetales, bears and couple of caribou and moose with that load. It works.

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